Conference back40::soapbox

    
    	In "News Briefs", I believe, it was stated that 4 bodies have
    	been recovered and possibly 8 are missing.
    

         Ron Brown?!? Never heard of him. 

    He's the commerce secretary, Ed.

    I heard the chance for survivors was slim.
    -ss

    They've found one survivor, so far.  No word on her condition, though.

    Something about 400MPH and the side of a mountain that make for a
    deadly recipe.

    The woman who had been found alive died enroute to hospital.

         I wonder if Bill Clinton feels even remotely responsible.  I can't
    believe he had the gumption(sp) to show up at the families' home.
    -ss

There's also Ron Brown the writer down at LKG who lives in Wilton, NH
and raises llamas. But he didn't die in a plane crash today.

              Llamas are bigger than frogs.
	      /
	  oo)-.
	 /__  _\       
	 \  \(  |      
	  \__|\ {                                             
	  '  '--'   

    RE: .8
    
    > I wonder if Bill Clinton feels even remotely responsible.  I can't
    > believe he had the gumption(sp) to show up at the families' home.
    
    Did you wonder if Reagan felt remotely responsible for killing the
    Challenger astronauts?  Did you find it hard to believe that Reagan
    comforted their families?

<---I was going to say something similar.

	I guess Clinton can't show up anywhere, regardless of how good of a
friend it is, without some idiot going off on him. 



Glen

    Agreed, Glen.
    
    I almost came in here earlier to bet this week's paycheck that someone
    would blame Clinton for this plane crash.
    
    It was as inevitable as the sunset this evening.
    
    As we speak, the Republican party itself is probably scrambling to
    find a way to use these plane crash deaths in the November election.
    (There's got to be a way, right?)

| <<< Note 695.13 by SPECXN::CONLON >>>


| -< Repubs in power will jump on the dead for their own purposes... >-

	Do they really need to jump on Dole? :-)

         Yeah,yeah. Clinton did it!
    -ss

    
    Pfffftttt!  :-)

  Why shouldn't Clinton show up at the family's home?  I'm not a fan
 of Clinton to be sure, but I see no problem with him showing up..it's
 an act of respect..



 Jim

    Jim, it was entirely appropriate for Clinton to go to the family's
    home to pay his respects - you're absolutely right.
    
    Some people trash Clinton for sneezing but trash him a lot worse
    if doesn't sneeze.  It's nuts.

    I know-I'm terrible.  But, if I didn't say it, someone else would've.
    -ss

	Talk about close to home. When I first read about this (da Box
	is better than CNN when it comes to news) I was interested,
	but only intellecutally.

	When I got home tonight one of our (CSABR) volunteers who was
	meeting with Kat, told us that she actually worked with Ron Brown 
	in DC before he moved to Commerce. She also new several of his top 
	aides who were also (likely) on the plane.

	She spent the day on the phone talking to folks back in DC and
	is making travel arrangements tonight in order to be on hand for
	whatever service is being planned.

Jim

    .8
    
    Color me clueless... but I really don't understand why you're claiming
    Clinton is to blame for this crash.
    
    just wondering....

    Clinton routinely gets blamed for every death which is in any way
    related to the government or Arkansas.  The Clinton-haters call
    it the 'Clinton body count'.

    One guy died when he skied into a tree, and these people blamed
    Clinton for it.

    It's absolutely nuts.

      re .21
    
     .22 pretty much hits the nail on the head.  I don't think that Bill
    created the fog or anything like that.  Just really being
    arguementative.
    -ss 

    Thanks for your candor, -ss.

         It would be a real tragedy for the republicans to start blaming
    this misfortune on the Clinton administration. Politics have sunk to
    new lows in the past few years. It's time to put an end to these sort
    of tactics. 

    Oh, shut UP. SS pulls your collective legs, and the usual suspects
    react. It was a chain yank. Stop being so incredibly predictable. Of
    course his chain yank results in more republican bashing. How
    predictable.

  It is no coincidence that this plane crashed the same day the supsected
  Unabomber was arrested..The umpire who died on Monday?  Check it out..he
  was about to go public with what he knew about the unabombers plans to
  sabotage Brown's plane..and the illegal immigrants who were beaten in  
  Southern Cal?   Their connection to this event will be revealed in the
  coming weeks.

    Doctah, the comments made by -ss in .8 were entirely consistent with
    the Clinton-haters' most predictable stance, and you know it.

| <<< Note 695.26 by WAHOO::LEVESQUE "put the opening in back" >>>

| Oh, shut UP. 

	Gee...I think the doc realizes he is a year older, now. :-)

| It was a chain yank. 

	Then why didn't I enjoy it?

	Jim, I can't believe I followed all of that! Pretty good write-up!

    Interesting that some of the most critical anti-Clinton forces herein
    questioned his logic, though. If it were "entirely consistent" one
    would have expected them to pile on. Even he whose mantra is "the goal-
    get Slick out of the white house" refrained from such a gratuitous and
    illegitimate slam.

    Ron Brown was on tax funded work to promote business.  Is this
    Constitutional?  If yes, then fine.  If not, then it was Clintons
    fault.

    RE: .31  Mark Levesque
    
    > Interesting that some of the most critical anti-Clinton forces herein
    > questioned his logic, though. If it were "entirely consistent" one
    > would have expected them to pile on. Even he whose mantra is "the goal-
    > get Slick out of the white house" refrained from such a gratuitous and
    > illegitimate slam.                   
    
    -ss wrote the note (and I responded) at night before most of the worst 
    Clinton-bashers, including you, even saw the -ss note.
    
    It was typical Clinton-bashing, and you know it.

    Um, this has to be a great loss to the US. A plane load of highly
    motivated and capable people trying to drum up business for their country. 
    This has to be a great loss.

    This is a terrible loss for the US, agreed.
    

    
    
    	According to the news blurb I heard this morning, this
    	plane that went down was the SAME one that Hillary and
    	Chelsea were on for their trip to Bosnia a week +   back.....
    

    
      But they changed pilots.  Usually, the same crew flies VIP's,
     but they switched pilots on the short leg from Bosnia to Croatia,
     because they thought these guys knew the area better.  Ironically,
     it was the more familiar pilots who bounced the aircraft off the
     promontory and into the Adriatic short of the runway.
    
      bb

    re: .34
    
    It's a great loss to their families, but I doubt most of the companies
    will suffer much damage, with the possible exception of the one where
    the CEO and a VP were killed.
    
    Bob

    
    	RE: .38
    
    	Yeah, I know what you mean.  If that ever happened to us, I'm
    	not sure how we'd ever get along with only 226 VP's.
    

    >Repubs in power will use this against Clinton - JUST WATCH.
    
     Yeah, sure. That won't stop you from bashing them, however. You fell
    for a chain yank. Now, to save face, you'll attack non-existent
    republican attempts to profit politically from this tragedy. How
    predictable.
    
    >It was typical Clinton-bashing, and you know it.
    
     It was a chain yank, and you fell for it. To be honest, before -ss
    came clean I thought he was stupid enough to be serious, so you aren't
    exactly alone in falling for the chain yank. And I readily acknowledge
    that some people (frequently republicans but sometimes others) blame
    Clinton for things that stretch the limit of credibility. So what? This
    wasn't real, so there's no reason in continuing to act as if it were
    (except to save face, or perhaps to use it as a convenient opportunity
    to bash republicans.)

    Okay. I think I finally figured it out... I think.
    
    Anyway, I was talking to my X last night and he said that someone (I
    don't remember who) has been keeping a list of all of the people who've
    died, and knew (or who have ever met) Clinton. The claim is that Brown
    is nummber 27 (or something like that). If I compared that number to
    the number of people I know (or have met) who have died (in the last 4
    years), I'd say that's high. Then again, I'm not Clinton. I don't get
    around like he does, so obviously this changes things.
    
    Did any of you see "Forest Gump"? Seemed like almost everyone he
    met/knew died. Do you think there's a connection? Rediculous, you say?
    Well, it sounds just about as rediculous as claiming Clinton was
    responsible for the 27 or so deaths.
    
    BTW, I am *not* a Clinton supporter. I just happen to think that some
    things said against him are stupidsticious.

    
    	Michelle, how old are you, and how old is Clinton?
    
    	People are more likely to die once they get to/past Clinton's
    	age, so it would stand to reason that people he "knows"* would
    	die more often than people that you know ... assuming that the
    	majority of people he "knows"* are somewhere around his age.
    
    	* "knows" is somewhat subjective, anyways, since it could
    	  imply only a very casual acquaintance ... or merely the fact
    	  that someone has heard of someone else
    

    Nothing like seeing two intellectual individuals of French descent at
    each others throat! :-)

    RE: .40  Mark Levesque

    >> Repubs in power will use this against Clinton - JUST WATCH.
    
    > Yeah, sure. That won't stop you from bashing them, however. 

    Do you think they won't deserve to be bashed if they use this
    plane crash to gain advantage in the upcoming election???

    > You fell for a chain yank. Now, to save face, you'll attack 
    > non-existent republican attempts to profit politically from 
    > this tragedy. How predictable.

    The remark was typically Republican, even if it wasn't meant
    to be taken seriously.

    When Clinton was first elected, there were something like *50*
    Clinton-bashing topics in this file.

    It would be very difficult to overestimate the depths to which
    Republicans would be willing to sink to trash Clinton.

    We'll see what the Repubs in power do with this as the election grows
    near.  (At the very least, the 'Clinton body count' people will add
    Ron Brown and the others in this crash to their list which is usually
    published here.)

    > It was a chain yank, and you fell for it. To be honest, before -ss
    > came clean I thought he was stupid enough to be serious, so you aren't
    > exactly alone in falling for the chain yank. 

    It was no different from the usual Clinton-bashing that goes on here
    (especially the 'Clinton body count' garbage, where a man can die by
    skiing into a tree and some 'Boxers blame Clinton for it.)

    > And I readily acknowledge that some people (frequently republicans but 
    > sometimes others) blame Clinton for things that stretch the limit of 
    > credibility. 

    By light years, at times.

    > So what?

    So, such actions deserve to be harshly criticized.
     
    > This wasn't real, so there's no reason in continuing to act as if it 
    > were (except to save face, or perhaps to use it as a convenient 
    > opportunity to bash republicans.)

    It was typical of the garbage that some people here usually toss at
    Clinton.  If you now admit that such remarks *are* garbage, in general,
    then it was worth discussing it here.

 Sources tell me that the illegal immigrant connection is this:  They were
 speeding their way into the US to disclose the plot to sabatoge this plane.
 The Riverside Sheriffs were in on the plot, and had to stop the illegals
 from making the disclosure..thus the chase on the highway..

 This is going to make a great movie.




 Jim

    Re .42
    
    Much younger than Clinton. But that's not the point. The list is
    supposed to be of people who died unexpectedly (like suicide, bombings,
    planes crashing, etc).
    
    As far as "knows" goes, these people were supposedly either aids, ex-SS
    people, etc.
    
    Anyway... I'm not supporting this theory, just reporting what I've
    heard. Like I said in the last paragraph, it's stupid(sticious).

    
    	Well, now that you added "unexpectedly", it certainly puts it
    	in a different light.
    

    .45
    
    Wow! Who woulda thought it would figure?
    
    Means: The extra $7 billion repubs granted the defense dept was used to
    sabotage this (AF) jet.
    
    Motive: Not as obvious as you may think... Repubs were not exactly fond
    of Ron Brown, but killing him outright would have been way too obvious. 
    This way, he's history and repubs can let the crocodile tears flow...
    
    Opportunity: Can anybody ever account for any repub's whereabouts at
    any given time?
    
    EXTRA ADDED BONUS: Thirty-some corporate execs fall victim to the heavy
    hand of big government!  When will we EVER learn???
    

    suzanne's grip on political reality seems as if it has been hacked to
    death with knife.
    

    re: .33
    
    I bash Clinton, but such a bash would have been totally atypical
    for me.
    
    I kind of think that was one HUGE generalization!
    
    					Tony

Rush's first story today was Ron Brown bashing.  Rush couldn't even wait
for the body to get stiff.

Oh,  "but that's just chain yanking".


How tacky.  How Republican.  How special.


Phil

    .51
    
    Always remember that Rush is an *entertainer*.  Nothing vindictive, nor
    partisan, then, about bashing poor dead Ron Brown.  It's funny, see? 
    Just imagine the unbridled hilarity let loose on this country upon
    sweet Mr. Limbaugh's demise.
    
    Damn shame the plane didn't go down with Hillary and Chelsea aboard.  I
    can envision a whole two hour comedy/variety special!
    

    It's still incredibly classless. We're talking Stern/Imus level stuff
    here.

    Rush is an honorary member of the Republican congress.
    
    He gets a lot of glory for such a classless person.

    
    That's it ! Lunchbox had Ron Brown offed.  I knew there was a
    conspiracy.
    
    

    I would have gone a lot deeper than Brown, I mean, there are still
    Kennedy's out there!!!

    
    
    phil,
    
    crassness and poor taste is hardly the exclusive domain of 
    republicans.  when ronald reagan was shot in the early 1980's,
    some students and alumni at umass held an impromptu celebration.
    
    politically speaking, ron brown reminded me of 
    a gerbel in heat, but i regret that he died and i deeply respect the
    fact that he was trying to establish some framework for commerce
    in the balkans.
        

    I've heard not a few memory jokes with President Reagan as the butt of
    the joke.

    .54
    
    Whoops!  I'm reeeaal confused now.  Rush is an honorary member of the
    Republican congress?  Who does he represent?  Who bestowed said honor? 
    Is it really an honor at all?  I don't remember having any say in this. 
    What's his voting record?  Does he support Term Limits?  If so, will he
    favor us with his resignation in the near future?
    
    He gets a lot of glory for such a classless person?  Where have I BEEN? 
    Please help me overcome my ignorance - gimme a few examples...
    

         <<< Note 695.59 by DYPSS1::OPPER "stands for tippy-toes..." >>>
                       -< Amending the Constitution 101 >-

    
    
    >Rush is an honorary member of the Republican congress?

    70% of Americans believe it :-)

    Wow, Rush's popularity must have gone way down in recent months for
    people in here to be unaware that the Republican congress made Rush
    an 'honorary' member of their club.

    I know the Buchanan supporters are mad at Rush, but I guess it runs
    deeper than that.

    .60
    
    >70% of Americans believe it
    
    Similar percentage think the U.S. started WWII and the Constitution sez
    "From each according to his ability, to each according to his means"...
    
    Even so, I wasn't aware that Congress could accomodate "honorary"
    members.  Can I lobby for my mom?  It's her birthday, and she'd be real
    tickled.
    

    Rush's 'honorary' membership in the Republican Congress is probably
    an informal one.
    
    I'm still amazed that people here weren't aware of it.  I guess it's
    a well kept secret.  :)

    .61
    
    Ohhh... The Congress "CLUB"!  And here I thought we were talking about
    a branch of government!  Silly me.
    
    Why do you jump to the conclusion that I'm a Buchanan supporter? 
    Actually, I'm local coordinator of the Lyndon LaRouche / Dick Cavett
    ticket.  Representative democracy, you see.
    

Take a poll and get back to us...

    re.65
    
    Nice to see ol' Lyndon out of the clink...

    .67
    
    Now that Lyndon IS outta the slammer, there's any empty cell awaitin'
    for a NEW wacko politico.  Howsabout B1-Bob Dornan?  Hey... wait a
    minute!  B1-Bob... Military aircraft...
    
    Ron Brown's body lies a mouldering in the grave...
     

        Ron Brown, may he SNARF in piece.

  geez - this is the kind of stuff that makes 
  del entry soapbox seem like a good idea.

    .70
    
    Dittoes!
    

    .63
    
    Now, here's a good example of somebody failing to appreciate what we
    here in fly-over country refer to as AYE-RAH-NEE.  To wit - I didn't
    really mean (see .52) that it's a shame Hillary and Chelsea didn't go
    down in flames.  That would be a REAL loss of a coupla good lookin
    babes!  (Now you chuckle.  It's funny, see?)
    

 Yeah, it's hilarious

    You gotta wonder about these kinds of trips though and the risks that
    are taken. Canada just did a similar thing with our Prime Minister and
    a bunch of high profile business people. They flew around Asia and
    managed to sign some huge deals. They all could have been lost in a
    similar accident. It would have been a great tragedy, as this was. 

    Yes, that's exactly what I mean.
    (Read the rest!!!!)
    -ss;'{

                                                              
    
    I don't know all the details of the late Ron Brown's dealings which
    is under scrunity now, but even though he is another politician, now
    that I undersatnd better what he stood for and advocated, he is going
    to be BIG loss to the country.
    
    Other countries, notably European and Asian, do have some governmental
    advocacy to increase their business present abroad. That's probably
    one big reason why despite all the hoopla with the British Royalty,
    it is a valuable economic institution, in that corporate visitors do
    bear gifts (like multimilion sterling orders and contracts) simply to
    enjoy the proviledge of dining with the Queen on Britannia. Look at the
    Japanese government activism in the semiconductor industry, for
    example.
    
    US is not known for doing that, which is why Ron Brown got to be
    popular with American executives. He actually did something
    contributive for a change. Right or wrong, he believed that peace
    through military peacekeeping is needed, but peace through economic
    growth and stability is a lot more sustaining.
    
    Heard on the news that he brought 700-800 MacD hamburgers and tapes
    of the Final Four for the troops - he did not need to do that, but
    that was him. He identified with the grunts for having served 6 years
    in the military.
    
    So you know, maybe he wasn't the same old politician afterall. I am too
    jaded to even consider the distinction.
    
    About Clinton visiting the family... hey, that was a humane and
    considerate gesture, don't you think? After all they have been
    friends for a long time. Would you (Clinton bashers) have felt better
    if he hadn't because then he could be painted as a heartless SOB
    or worse, right?

    re last
    
    clinton a "heartless SOB?" why would anyone pick on such a war hero as
    him? ;-)
    

    
    enough of the Clinton bashing already!! he had nothing to do with the
    plane crash, some of you need to take courses in humanity 101.

	Good grief!

	This is of course tragic and I grieve for the families of
	the victims. 

	But for those inclined to use this topic to further a political
	agenda is distasteful in the extreme. 
    
    						Hank

	

	

    
    List of passengers and crew
    
    Passengers: 
    
         Ron Brown, Commerce secretary 
         Duane Christian, security officer, Commerce Department 
         Adam Darling, confidential assistant, Commerce Department 
         Carol Hamilton, press secretary, Commerce Department 
         Kathryn Hoffman, senior adviser, Commerce Department 
         Steve Kaminski, counselor for U.S. and foreign commercial service,
         	Commerce Department 
         Kathy Kellogg, assistant, Office of Business Liaison, Commerce
         	Department 
         Chuck Meissner, assistant secretary for international trade,
    	 	Commerce Department 
         Bill Morton, deputy assistant secretary for international economic
    	 	development, Commerce Department 
         Gail Dobert, deputy director, office of business liaison, Commerce
    	 	Department 
         Lawrence Payne, special assistant for U.S. and foreign commercial
    	 	service, Commerce Department 
         Naomi Warbasse, international trade specialist, Commerce
    		Department 
         Jim Lewek, analyst, CIA 
         Lee Jackson, Treasury Department 
         Niksa Antonini, photographer 
         Dragica Lendic Bebek, interpreter 
         Nathaniel Nash, New York Times reporter 
         Barry Conrad, Barrington Corp. 
         Paul Cushman, Riggs National Bank 
         Robert Donovan, ABB Inc. 
         Claudio Elia, Air and Water Technologies 
         David Ford, Interguard Corp. 
         Frank Maier, Ensearch Intl. Corp. 
         Walter Murphy, AT&T Submarine Systems 
         Leonard Pieroni, Parsons Corp. 
         John Scoville, Harza Engineering Co. 
         Donald Terner, Bridge Housing Corp. 
         Stuart Tholan, Bechtel Corp. 
         Robert Whittaker, Foster Wheeler Energy International 
    
    Crew: 
    
         Capt. Ashley Davis, pilot 
         Capt. Tim Schafer, pilot 
         Staff Sgt. Gerald Aldrich, flight mechanic 
         Staff Sgt. Robert Farrington Jr., steward 
         Tech. Sgt. Shelly Kelly, steward 
         Tech. Sgt. Cheryl Turnage, steward 
    
                

 Terrible shame :-(





 Jim

    
    	Didn't someone say there were 33 victims?
    
    	I count 35.
    

    
    Perhaps what you heard was 33 Americans? 
    

    
    	All I remember was "Ron and 32 others", and I thought I'd read
    	it in here somewhere yesterday.
    

    
    .85
    
    shawn, that would be me in 40.1327. so I missed a couple. sue me.

    
    	No suing necessary ... just seeing you admit your mistake in a
    	public forum is punishment enough for you.  8^)
    
    	Just kidding!!  I knew I'd read that somewhere, but forgot who
    	said it.
    

    I'm not a Clinton fan and I don't play one on TV; the Clintons
    visiting Ron Brown's family is more than appropriate.  For heaven
    sake, Ron Brown was a member of Clinton's cabinet and was credited
    for rousing what had become a lethargic Democratic party and getting
    its candidate elected President.
    
    Brown wasn't heading just another political junket, some of the
    best and brightest in the business world were on that plane with
    him.  A woman from Atlanta who was Brown's assistant chief of
    staff made the trip at the last minute when her boss couldn't make
    the trip.  Ms. Holloway's father was interviewed last night; he lost
    a beautiful daughter.  He said his only measure of comfort right now
    is the knowledge that his daughter absolutely loved her job and
    wouldn't have missed this trip for anything in the world once she
    found that her immediate superior couldn't make the trip.
    
    From the film clips I've seen while the search was on-going, the
    weather ws abysmal; it's just too bad someone didn't decide to wait
    out the weather front before embarking on that last flight.
    
    

    re .37
      >>But they changed pilots.  Usually, the same crew flies VIP's,
      >>   but they switched pilots on the short leg from Bosnia to Croatia,
      >>   because they thought these guys knew the area better.  Ironically,
     >>   it was the more familiar pilots who bounced the aircraft off the
      >>   promontory and into the Adriatic short of the runway.
        
    ..just goes to show you, accidents do happen.  It could've just as
    easily happened when Hillary & Chelsea were on it.  Or William
    Perry last week.   Or John Q Public.  I heard that there have been
    3 fatal crashes of 737s in the last 2 or 3 years, so it is being 
    looked at as possibly mechanical, but the fact is, the weather
    was crap and they were coming in on instruments only.  And, let's
    face it, pilots do fly into mountains every so often.
    
    Sue

    two thots...
    
    the list was revised to 35 when there was some confusion over the exact
    passenger and crew list...35 bodies have been recovered as of 8AM EST.
    
    my prayers are with the family and loved ones of all passengers and
    crews on this flight.
    
    Ron

    Greetings,
    
    One arguement with the concept that this could happen to anyone who
    flys... There is something rotten with the military's way of doing
    things and I think this accident is an example of the depth of distress
    the military is reaching. 
    
    1. These are old planes (bought in 1973) with old electronics in them.
    The commerical carriers wouldn't be caught dead flying with this kind
    of equiptment. 
    
    2. Those left in the military are going (within reason) through the
    same kind of downsizing we at DEC are which means nooe wants to be
    caught saying no to anything! 
    
    3. The crew took a chance too many without what the rest of the flying
    world would consider basic equiptment (to be installed on the air force
    fleet next year) in an attempt to keep from saying they couldn't do
    what the mission required. They and thier passengers paid (in my
    opinion) for this with their lives.
    
    Fred

    
>    1. These are old planes (bought in 1973) with old electronics in them.
>    The commerical carriers wouldn't be caught dead flying with this kind
>    of equiptment. 
 

     Next time you board an aircraft (737, DC9, 727) check for the 
     certificate issued by the FAA which is posted near the entrance
     to the plane.  You'll be surprised at the age of some of them, particularly
     the start up carriers.

     This plane had gone through a major check less than a year ago..essentially
     they tore the plane down and rebuilt it.  Also from what I've read
     it has less hours on it than commercial aircraft of the same type/age.
     I don't understand, however, why it had no voice/data recorders on board
     unless there was some security reason.

   
   
  Jim

         This is tragic.  A needless loss of life.
    -ss

	Jim, the no voice recording was due to cost savings according to a
report I heard on tv. I guess they are really expensive.



Glen

    I always assumed voice recording was standard equipment or mandatory or
    something. 
    
    >Jim, the no voice recording was due to cost savings according to a
    >report I heard on tv. I guess they are really expensive.
    
    
     The same Air Force that pays $2500 for an effing hinge can't dish out
    the cash for an in flight recorder? I would think this would be a
    pretty posh plane, considering the people on it haven't flown 'coach'
    since the '60's. They blow all the cash on the cocktail nuts and skip
    on the recorder? Unforgivable...
    
    
    						lunchbox

    
    I read in one of the articles on this crash that the "black box" isn't 
    mandatory on military aircraft.
    

      <<< Note 695.91 by MAASUP::MUDGETT "We Need Dinozord Power NOW!" >>>

>    3. The crew took a chance too many without what the rest of the flying
>    world would consider basic equiptment (to be installed on the air force
>    fleet next year) in an attempt to keep from saying they couldn't do
>    what the mission required. They and thier passengers paid (in my
>    opinion) for this with their lives.
 
	Reports are that the ceiling in the area was 300 to 400 ft. Since
	there was no ILS (instrument landing system) functioning and not 
	even a VOR (very-high-frequency omnidirectional radio) still operating
	due to the war, the crew was attepting a NDB (non directional beacon)
	approach.

	You don't make an NDB approach in such conditions.

	Sounds like a classic case of "get-home-itis" on the part of the
	pilots.

Jim

    The black box costs $7M, which is why they didn't have one installed on
    the aircraft. Sounds like it's time to cut the defense budget again.

    
    	$7M??
    
    	What do you get for $7M?
    

    a voice/data recorder that is expected to make it through a plane
    crash.

Over the weekend CNN reported that the AF commander responsible for all
these flights (the unit is appaarently based at Kirtland AFB in
Albuquerque, NM) did not want to send that plane on that mission. He was
relieved of his command. CNN also reported that the Dubrovnic airport was
"below minimums" - and a landing was then at the discretion of the pilot.
CNN was trying to build a case for political pressure being brought to
bear on flight crews, causing them to violate safety procedures.

They did report that two planes landed before Brown's plan, and a couple
more landed after the crash. There was thunder and lightning in the area
and directly in the flight path of Brown's plane.

Art

>They did report that two planes landed before Brown's plan, and a couple
>more landed after the crash. There was thunder and lightning in the area
>and directly in the flight path of Brown's plane.


  Hmm...windshear perhaps?



 
 Jim

    $7 million?! How much does it cost to manufacture one? It can't be even
    close to that amount. Maybe DEC should start making black boxes.
    
    
    					dave

>>Over the weekend CNN reported that the AF commander responsible for all
>>these flights (the unit is appaarently based at Kirtland AFB in
>>Albuquerque, NM) did not want to send that plane on that mission. He was
>>relieved of his command.

This is what the news people should be following up on.

 Exactly.

    
    YOU ALL LIE!!!!!!!
    
    WHY DO YOU ALL LIE?????????????
    

    The crash of Ron Brown's plane and "the smoking gun"....?
    
    So Republicans intend to use this tragedy as a political weapon,
    after all.

    
    	I'll bet they will.
    
    	Who was that OTHER guy who committed suicide within the last few
    	years ... somebody named Foster, I believe?  This is starting to
    	reek of a presidential conspiracy, isn't it?
    

    vince foster knew about the bad plane.  bingo.

    If there's any way the Republicans can profit from people's deaths,
    they do it.  This much is a given.

>                     <<< Note 695.110 by SPECXN::CONLON >>>

    wowee zowee.  that's about as absurd as it gets.

    
    
    	Susan, you are over the edge....
    
    

    
    	RE: Bonnie
    
    	Ummm, well, that's not exactly what I meant, but those dirty
    	Republicans might spread similar rumors anyways.
    

    Well, we'll see.

    When rumors about the Ron Brown plane crash 'scandal' start popping
    up, don't say I didn't warn you.

       Both parties are equally bad.
    -ss

    re 110
    
    and of course democrats would _never_ try and start a scandal about
    something involving a republican administration......
    
    the bottom line is that this is a tragic accident that could have
    happened in any country, on any plane, to anyone. period. it will be
    investigated as any other crash would and should be and hopefully an
    answer will be found. 
    
    

    One question I do have:
    
    Why were all of these high-salaried executives, who could easily afford
    1st class on a commercial airlines, if not their corporate jet, flying
    an older miltary plane at taxpayers expense?

           <<< Note 695.117 by USAT02::HALLR "God loves even you!" >>>

    
>    Why were all of these high-salaried executives, who could easily afford
>    1st class on a commercial airlines, if not their corporate jet, flying
>    an older miltary plane at taxpayers expense?

	Call your travel agent and try to book a commercial flight
	to Bosnia.

Jim

    I'd say President Clinton has already politicized the deaths of
    these people.  He said (as best I can recall):

        These (dead) people stand in stern rebuke of the
            cynicism that is so prevelant today.

    Little does he realize, the cynicism grows when he uses dead
    people to plug "his message" that we shouldn't be cynical.

    I expect we'll see reference to these people several times over
    the next 8 months, usually as a means of hammering on someone's
    political opponent.

    \john

                     <<< Note 695.114 by SPECXN::CONLON >>>
>      -< I'll be very pleasantly surprised if they leave this one alone. >-


	I would be very disappointed if "they" (whoever "they" may be)
	leave this alone. A plane crash that kills 35 people that occurs
	AFTER safety concerns have been raised should be investigated.

	Since this was a military plane, that invesigation will quite
	likely, and quite properly, end up in the Congress.

Jim

    Look mr percival, i asked a simple question which you conveniently
    skirted:
    
    why didn't these high paid executives who could easily afford to ride
    1st class not charter their own jet or use their own corporate jet?
    
    is that to hard for you to answer or r u going to skirt it again?

    Oooh Ooooh I know!  Because the US government doesn't mind flipping the
    bill.  The commerce department is loaded!
    -ss

	Do all companies have a corporate jet? No. Will a commercial airline go
there? No. Do we know that they didn't pay for their passage (besides with
their lives)?


Glen

    Of all the executives who were on that flight, you don't think one of
    those companies had a corporate jet?  You don't think one of their jets
    was a more modern aircraft than the military version?  When did you
    know of anyone reimbursing the government for a flight on one of these
    type business missions?  With all the professed concern about the
    deficits, you would think one of these companies would have loved to
    volunteer their aircraft, just for the PR value alone.
    
    I am not pointing any fingers until more information is clear, I'm just
    asking questions.  When is it against the law to ask a question?

> When is it against the law to ask a question?

Geez, get a grip, Ron - this is the 'box.

:^)

    Jack:
    
    I f I was a relative of one of these victims, I'd be asking the same
    questions today?  Why did it have to happen?  Bechel not only has a
    large corporate air fleet, it has operations in Hungary.  I'm sure
    their pilots are family with that terrain and the trickiness of getting
    in and out of that air space.
    
    Ron

    >I'd say President Clinton has already politicized the deaths of
    >these people.  He said (as best I can recall):

    >    These (dead) people stand in stern rebuke of the
    >        cynicism that is so prevelant today.
    
     You must be a republican! St William would never do such a thing. Only
    republicans do that.

           <<< Note 695.121 by USAT05::HALLR "God loves even you!" >>>

>    is that to hard for you to answer or r u going to skirt it again?

	If you want a real answer, call the Commerce Department. My guess
	is that they will tell you they were there at the request of the 
	government. Since the delegation was led by a cabinet secretary,
	they flew on a military transport. Happens a lot, probably too 
	much (refer to previous news reports regarding the Department of
	Energy).

Jim

           <<< Note 695.124 by USAT02::HALLR "God loves even you!" >>>

>    Of all the executives who were on that flight, you don't think one of
>    those companies had a corporate jet?

	A little Q&A

	How many corporate jets will seat over 20 people for a Trans-Atlantic 
	flight?

	Damn few.

>  You don't think one of their jets
>    was a more modern aircraft than the military version?

	What is meant by more modern? Not as old? Better equipped?

	Many corporate jets are newer than the 737. Few are better equipped
	than a Air Force 737.

	Note that from all reports the crash was not caused by a lack
	of equipment on the plane, it was caused by a lack of equipment
	on the ground.

Jim

    maybe when we have a libertarian president, we'll never have to ask
    these silly questions.

 Z   I f I was a relative of one of these victims, I'd be asking the same
 Z       questions today?  Why did it have to happen?
    
    Or if you were in a Public Service Announcement with Bill Clinton,
    you'd be asking, "Why did this has to happen?"

    >I'd say President Clinton has already politicized the deaths of
    >    these people.  He said (as best I can recall):
    >
    >        These (dead) people stand in stern rebuke of the
    >            cynicism that is so prevelant today.
    
    He was referring specifically to the notion that the civil war has
    rendered Bosnia non grata in terms of being a place where commerce can
    be conducted, he was praising the dead for their committment to showing
    it could in fact be done.  He wasn't criticizing cynicism in general,
    he was talking about the specific pessimism that is hindering efforts
    to recruit rebuilding efforts now that the war is in abeyance.
    
    At least that's the impression *I* got.
    
    DougO

    RE: .124

>    With all the professed concern about the
>    deficits, you would think one of these companies would have loved to
>    volunteer their aircraft, just for the PR value alone.

    If, for argument sake, Ron Brown had taken a corporate jet which was
    volunteered for PR value then one could wonder if that would be
    considered a bribe.  At the very least it would have the appearance of
    impropriety.

    -- Dave

re: .132 (DougO)

well, you could be right, but he was in that "speech"-mode when
he was speaking; delivering "his message," with the appropriate
nods and grimaces.  

If he were playing to the war, I'd expect he'd use the "they gave their
lives" bit.

Besides, "inappropriate cynicism" is one of his big bugaboos; he's
mentioned it many times before, including the "you can't love your
country, but hate your government" bit.

So, who knows.  Again, you could be right.

\john

    I can't help having this gnawing feeling that Ron Brown possibly pissed
    on the graves of 50,000 dead US troops by possibly taking bribes to
    open markets with Vietnam.   
    
    Yeah yeah they dropped the proceedings but considering Clintons
    attitude regarding the military, vietnam, and everything else...well, I
    just don't feel that confident things were done with propriety.
    
    Hmmm...I guess character does count after all....doesn't it...

    .135
    
    > I can't help having this gnawing feeling that Ron Brown possibly pissed
    > on the graves of 50,000 dead US troops...
    
    It's a pity you can't get it through your head that the Vietnam war is
    OVER.  It ended 21 years ago.  We lost.  Ron Brown's taking bribes to
    open markets, if he did so, has absolutely nothing to do with the war,
    any more than does the massive effort by thousands of companies to open
    markets there.  We NEED foreign markets, Jack.  We NEED to make
    friends.  What we DON'T need is peabrained idjits living in the past
    trying to make us hate the Vietnames people, who are not responsible
    for what their leaders did a quarter of a century ago.
    
    You and Pat Buchanan ought to run for prez and vice prez together - you
    could use an isolationism platform.

    What about the notion of history repeating itself, or you don't know
    your future if you don't know your past, Dick? Don't you think the
    situation in Bosnia is immitating Viet Nam just a little bit? 
    
    
    
    lunchbox

    
    Viet Nam??
    
     I don't recall any Dept. of Commerce Secs being on the take during
    those years...
    
    
     Hmmmm...
    

    re.138
    
    Perhaps you remember the atrocities? Perhaps you remember politicians
    throwing around the phrase "threat to democracy". Perhaps you remember
    American troops being shipped off to fight somebody else's war.

    .139
    
    > Perhaps you remember the atrocities?
    
    Like My Lai?  Like Agent Orange?  Yeah, I remember 'em.  I wasn't
    there, but I watched the nooz.  I saw the South Vietnamese general
    waste the defenseless *suspected* VC spy with his pistol, and I saw the
    children screaming naked down the road after we fire-bombed their
    villages.  I've seen some of the scars those children carry today.
    
    > Perhaps you remember
    > American troops being shipped off to fight somebody else's war.
    
    Another in the long list of atrocities that "we" perpetrated - this one
    against our own young men, no less.

    Dick:
    
    While I see your point, (Pride superceding our ability to progress),
    there are alot of widows and parents of dead soldiers still alive and
    well.  There are alot of homeless shelters still supporting troops.
    I simply feel that if Ron Brown exploited this in any way, he showed a
    total disregard for his fellow Americans.
    
    If this is true...then one things for damn sure.  He doesn't belong in
    any National Cemetery.
    
    -Jack

    .137
    
    There is a difference between learning from the last and living in it.

    
    re: .139
    
    So??? What's your point, Lunchie???
    
    

    Dick criticized Jack for bringing up Viet Nam, and I was saying VN is a
    worthy comparison to Bosnia.

    .141
    
    > Pride superceding our ability to progress
    
    Not pride, Jack.  Utter stupidity.  The war is OVER.  We cannot fix
    what happened.  Let it go, and get on with your life.
    
    > If this is true...then one things for damn sure...
    
    And if Irangate is true, Ollie North sure as hell doesn't belong in any
    National Cemetery.  Perhaps you've forgotten that Ollie North, unlike
    Ron Brown, is an ACKNOWLEDGED felon, guilty of potentially treasonable
    activities.  He was pardoned - and one does not pardon an innocent man.

> Let it go, and get on with your life.

And I'm probably crazy to reopen this can of worms again, but as I said
several months ago when the RVN trade relations were reopened, one can
very well "get on with their life" without "letting it go" to the extent
that we normalize relations with a country who has done little more than
lie to us for the past quarter century. Your comments to the contrary
notwithstanding, there are many people still actively involved in the
government and armed forces of RVN who were so involved in the 60s and 70s 
when the conflict was still in effect.

Forget? Never. Forgive. No way. Let the dirty bastards rot in the same hell
that they let our servicemen rot in.

Enough. This is the wrong topic for it. And I don't share the Ron Brown 
connection opinion in any event.

    
    Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.
    
    --- George Santanya
    
    i.e. Binder, why don't we just forget history, bury our dead,
         and make the same stupid mistakes all over again.
    
         I really respect your opinions, but re: this one, you're
    	 an idiot.

    ... Clinton cutting up with someone, laughing, having a good o'l
    time (right after RB's funeral), and then... BEHOLD!
    
    He notices a camera pointing at him, immediately gets a straight face,
    and then begins wiping his eyes as if he were crying...
    
    ...hmmmmm...

    always an opportunity for a photo op

>Note 695.140                     Ron Brown Rip??                      140 of 149
>SMURF::BINDER "Uva uvam vivendo variat"              15 lines  11-APR-1996 16:51
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    .139
>    
>    > Perhaps you remember the atrocities?
>    
>    Like My Lai?  Like Agent Orange?  Yeah, I remember 'em.  I wasn't
>    there, but I watched the nooz.  I saw the South Vietnamese general
>    waste the defenseless *suspected* VC spy with his pistol, 
    
    
    This IS UNTRUE! It was widely reported as so at the time. The VC had
    just killed this mans wife and child. He WAS NOT innocent!
    
    
    Steve

    .147
    
    Moore, if you had an inkling what I'm talking about you'd pee your
    pants from embarrassment.
    
    Where did I say forget ANYTHING?  I didn't.  I said let it go.  The
    world is already full to the brim with stupid insular people doing
    their best to hate.  By the premise that we should keep on living in
    the past, we whites are still responsible for the enslavement of
    blacks.  And Gerald Sacks had better duck, because the Jews are the
    ones who hung Jesus Christ to a tree.
    
    Grow up.  Instead of punishing people for the past sins and errors they
    may have committed, we would do better to enslave them by giving them
    the luxuries of modern technology.  Get them hooked, and we have a
    source of revenue.  We also show them that they are better off adopting
    our capitalistic system than continuing to support communism.  You
    don't have to like them, but that shouldn't revent our doing business
    with them to everyone's mutual benefit.

    .150
    
    > This IS UNTRUE! It was widely reported as so at the time. The VC had
    > just killed this mans wife and child. He WAS NOT innocent!
    
    So much for a fair trial.  You'd do well as a member of the Vietnamese
    judiciary.

    RE .150
    
    Do you remember the circumstance? It was the 1968 TET offensive where
    the VC/NVA tried to take over as many towns as possible. 
    
    I am not saying that this person got a fair trial. However this person was
    caught red handed killing this persons family.
    
    There was a raging battle going on all around. What would YOU have
    done???
    
    Another case of the media reporting the fact 180 degrees from what was
    true.
    
    
    Steve

>             And Gerald Sacks had better duck, because the Jews are the
>    ones who hung Jesus Christ to a tree.

{Blink, blink}.  I have an alibi.                

    
    RE: .148
    
    >... Clinton cutting up with someone, laughing, having a good o'l
    >time (right after RB's funeral), and then... BEHOLD!
    
    >He notices a camera pointing at him, immediately gets a straight face,
    >and then begins wiping his eyes as if he were crying...
    
    >...hmmmmm...
    
    
      Just wants to make me admire him more and more as each day passes...
    

 Z   Where did I say forget ANYTHING?  I didn't.  I said let it go.  The
 Z   world is already full to the brim with stupid insular people doing
 Z   their best to hate.  By the premise that we should keep on living in
 Z   the past, we whites are still responsible for the enslavement of
 Z   blacks.  And Gerald Sacks had better duck, because the Jews are the
 Z   ones who hung Jesus Christ to a tree.
    
    Dick, my purpose isn't to perpetuate hate.  I am speaking strictly
    against any person who disregards our dead veterans by gaining
    personally from a bribe.  It minimizes what our soldiers endured to a
    great extent.
    
    And by the way, Jesus hung himself on a tree.  It was the fickleness of
    the Jews in that time that God used to carry out His purpose. 
    
    -Jack

    .156
    
    > Dick, my purpose isn't to perpetuate hate.
    
    Then go after Brown.  Leave the Vietnam dead out of it.  They are
    unrelated.
    
    > And by the way, Jesus hung himself on a tree.
    
    You choose to believe that.  Others don't.  The facts of the case are
    that Jesus was crucified by the Romans at the insistence of the Jewish
    leaders.  Fickle?  Hardly - they feared him because he was being viewed
    as the center of a potential revolution - unlike the many other similar
    fomenters of rebellion because he might succeed.  "Uneasy lies the
    head that wears the crown," Jack.

 Z   You choose to believe that.  Others don't.  The facts of the case are
 Z   that Jesus was crucified by the Romans at the insistence of the
 Z   Jewish leaders.  Fickle?  Hardly - they feared him because he was being
 Z   viewed as the center of a potential revolution 
    
    Well, I choose to believe it because Christ made his mission quite
    clear to the apostles in Matthew 16...(Remember the "Get thee behind me
    Satan" spiel?)  
    
    The reason I say the Jewish people were fickle was due to their
    behavior only a few days prior.  They were flooding the streets with
    Palms...proclaiming Hosanna...blessed is he who comes in the name of
    the Lord.  Amazing how such an accolading crowd can soon turn into an
    angry mob.  
    
    Nothing happened that day that Jesus wasn't in full control of.
    
    -Jack

    Re: The Ron Brown thing...sorry but I believe there should be an
    element of nationalism in anybody who is proud of their country.  IF
    Ron Brown took a bribe, then he in effect sold out your fellow patriots
    who died in that conflict.  
    
    But hey, I also believe that Jane Fonda should be tried for treasonous
    acts against the United States.  Maybe I'm one of a kind!
    
    -Jack

    .158
    
    > Well, I choose to believe it because Christ made his mission quite
    > clear to the apostles in Matthew 16...(Remember the "Get thee behind me
    > Satan" spiel?)
    
    Jack, Jack.  The Gospels were written by believers for the purpose of
    convincing others to believe.  Does the word "advertising" ring a bell? 
    I keep telling you, Jack, that people who don't believe in Christianity
    don't believe what's in the book, either.  And even some of those who
    DO believe in Christianity put a different slant on things - for
    example, are you aware that Mary was almost surely not a virgin?  (The
    word used in the gospels to describe her means a young woman, not
    specifically a virgin.)  It was common practice at that time for a man
    to take his betrothed for a test drive - and if she turned up barren
    the engagement was off because a male heir was paramount.  It is not
    necessary that Mary have been a virgin for Jesus to be divine, any more
    than any other miracle requires the preconditions we might want to
    place on it.  But the evangelists may well have considered it essential
    for proof of Jesus' divinity that he appear to have been conceived
    miraculously.
    
    How does this apply to Ron Brown?  It doesn't.  But it does apply to
    the way you consistently, predictably cast your religio-emotional slant
    on things.  God gave you a brain.  If you haven't sold it to buy a
    better Bible, you might try exercising it.  God will be pleased that
    you honor his gift to you by using it.

      re: .148
    
      I hope this scene is played over and over again, day in day out,
      until after the election.                     
    
      I know it will have no effect on the "character is irrelevent"
      crowd, but still!
    
      If we vote this guy in after being given so much evidence for
      his unfitness for office...well, I guess we get what we deserve.
    
    						Tony

    Dick....I would like to address this in the thumper topic!

    RE: .148

    > ... Clinton cutting up with someone, laughing, having a good o'l
    > time (right after RB's funeral), and then... BEHOLD!
    
    > He notices a camera pointing at him, immediately gets a straight face,
    > and then begins wiping his eyes as if he were crying...

    At every funeral ever held in my family, the favorite activity after
    the burial was to tell favorite funny and endearing stories about
    the family member who had just died.  Most times, people would be
    rolling on the floor laughing at the funniest stories - it was a way
    to celebrate a person's life, while also being heartbroken at his/her
    death.

    This was especially true when people died young.  When my Aunt passed
    away, it was all the more tragic for everyone because her youngest
    child (4 years old) kept talking about things they were going to do
    that week.  (He didn't know she had died, and kept bringing up her
    name because she was missing.  He was assuring himself that she'd
    be back by naming the things they were going to do when she returned.)

    People were laughing one minute about her wonderful sense of humor,
    then crying when the little boy would say something about her as if
    she were still alive.

    If worldwide news cameras had been on us, we wouldn't have wanted to
    photographed as laughing on the day of her funeral, either.

    RE: .161  Tony
    
    > I hope this scene is played over and over again, day in day out,
    > until after the election.                     
    
    Let's get a picture of Bob Dole on the toilet and run this everyday,
    too.   If candidates aren't allowed to have a single private moment
    in their lives, let's bring it all into the campaign.
    
    > I know it will have no effect on the "character is irrelevent"
    > crowd, but still!
    
    You don't know what they were laughing about - maybe Clinton is
    like the people in my family who tell funny stories about the dead
    after funerals to celebrate their wonderful lives.
    
    > If we vote this guy in after being given so much evidence for
    > his unfitness for office...well, I guess we get what we deserve.
    
    He's unfit for office because he didn't want to be caught laughing
    after a dear friend's funeral (even if he was using the laughter
    to celebrate the friend's life?)
    
    No excuse is too small to bash this guy, is it.

    
    
    >No excuse is too small to bash this guy, is it.
    
    
    And no reply is too small to come to his defense...
    

 Z   it was a way
 Z   to celebrate a person's life, while also being heartbroken at
 Z   his/her death.
    
    Suzanne, the laughing part is not in question.  The concern is that
    Clinton could not be true to himself once he spotted the camera.
    -Jack

    RE: .166  Andy
    
    >> No excuse is too small to bash this guy, is it.
    
    > And no reply is too small to come to his defense...
    
    Do you think it's a 'small thing' to suggest that a private moment
    after a friend's funeral be played as part of an election campaign?
    
    Let's get a photo of Bob Dole on the toilet into the campaign, too,
    then.

    The problem with bashing the prez over every little thing is that
    people become inured to it, so when a really serious thing comes along
    they take no notice of it (because so many are bashing the guy every
    time he inhales.) Seems to me that the scene in question may or may not
    reflect negatively on the prez, depending on whether it's obvious that
    he was playing up to the cameras or not. In the meantime, it seems like
    a pretty minor infraction to get worried about.

    RE: .167  Jack Martin
    
    >> it was a way to celebrate a person's life, while also being heartbroken 
    >> at his/her death.
    
    > Suzanne, the laughing part is not in question.  The concern is that
    > Clinton could not be true to himself once he spotted the camera.
    
    Would you want worldwide cameras reporting a moment of laughter after
    your friend's funeral (even if you were laughing about some funny
    thing he'd once said, and were celebrating his memory in the process?)
    
    I wouldn't.

    Agreed, Mark.

      Hi Suzanne,
    
        Maybe I overstepped, but you could have acknowledged the
        possibility of a correlation that Clinton's behavior was
        a function of spotting a camera.
    
        It seemed bad taste to me to be laughing one moment, spot
        a camera, and 'decide' to change your look.
    
        But, I do appreciate the idea that one can laugh at a 
        funeral and that was an oversight on my part.  (I laughed
        in the way you mentioned at my brother's funeral.)
    
        So, I hear ya (part way).  Just think the camera part
        is kind of a drag.
    
    						Tony

 ZZ   I wouldn't.
    
    I wouldn't either Suzanne.  I guess what I'm saying is if I were the
    pres, I would maintain my demeanor....since I had already been caught
    on camera.  

    Re:  The last few notes...
    
    I didn't think there was anything wrong with him laughing or crying. In
    fact, I could really care less what he does at someone's funeral. I
    just thought it was ironic that he *looked* like he was performing for
    the camera:
    
    	Doesn't notice camera, be himself (laugh, whatever)
    	Notices camera. Look sad. Wipe a few tears.
    
    Obviously I have no idea what was really going on. I wasn't there. Anyway,
    I would've said the same thing about anyone else that had done the same
    thing.
    
    This just happened to be Clinton. And he just happened to look like he
    was putting on a performance.
    
    Whether he was or not can be debated until the moon is blue and hell
    freezes over. In the end, the only person that knows what was *really*
    going on is Clinton.
    
    IMHO, it still looked funny, and completely cracked me up.

    Tony, the most heartbreaking funeral I've ever attended was for my
    16 year old High School classmate (after she died in a car accident.)
    Hundreds of kids skipped school to attend her funeral that day and
    once some of us started to cry, everyone cried.  Even the funeral
    directors cried.  The casket was open and almost everyone there had
    become basketcases by the time the burial was finished later.

    Several cars of teenagers (mine included) got lost on the way back
    from the funeral (which was held 30 or 40 miles away from our town),
    and we were laughing and crying at the same time as we traveled 
    around the countryside in our lost little convoy.

    People aren't always thinking straight after such a loss.  We don't
    know what Clinton was thinking, but I find it sad that he has to worry
    about what cameras might record about his facial expression or demeanor
    at a time like that.

    Thanks for hearing me (part way), though.  :)

 The worst funeral I ever attended was for a 12 year old boy killed
 by a drunk driver.  I don't ever want to have to do that again.  If
 there is anyone who insists on drinking and driving, attending such
 a funeral would cure them.



 Jim

    Suzanne,
    
    You're right. It is sad that he has to worry about what cameras might
    record (about anything he does)...
    
    Then again, he's not the first... Who was it that was recorded falling
    down some steps (or something like that)? Comedians played that one for
    a long time.
    
    Maybe the problem has nothing to do with what he was doing, rather, the
    reaction to what he appeared to be doing. In this case, I definitely
    stand guilty. The whole thing looked hilarious, to me.
    
    When I see people who are in the lime-light do things that *appear* (to
    me) to be foolish, I find it funny. Maybe this is wrong. Maybe I should
    consider that those *poor* people have no privacy. However, it usually
    doesn't cross my mind. They chose (or at least most of them chose) to
    be in the lime-light.
    
    So they boff. So what. So people laugh. Big deal.
    
    It's not like something like this is *really* going to make any
    difference whether Clinton gets re-elected or not.
    
    And really, those who use this as a reason not to vote for him are
    really idiots (if there are any, though I'd be hard pressed to
    believe that people could be that stupid) .

    Gerald Ford, who had a habit of tripping and banging into walls!

    Cameras of any sort don't belong at a funeral anyway. What is the
    purpose of filming Brown's casket, his widow, our president(sic), the
    procession? This isn't news, it's an invasion of privacy. Are any of us
    better off for seeing a funeral on TV?

    Michelle, I can understand a moment of laughter when seeing something
    like this.  I agree that it's a silly thing to use as the basis for
    voting, though.

   I'm reminded of the line in the Mary Tyler Moore Show episode at
 Chuckle the Clown's funeral..



 all I can remember is "a little seltzer down your pants"

>>    Cameras of any sort don't belong at a funeral anyway. What is the
>>    purpose of filming Brown's casket, his widow, our president(sic), the
>>    procession? This isn't news, it's an invasion of privacy. Are any of us
>>    better off for seeing a funeral on TV?
    
    Then again, there sure were a lot of cameras at JFK's funeral. Sure,
    his funeral was private to his family, but it also meant something to
    this nation.
    
    I remember the day he was shot and watchin his funeral on TV. It seemed
    like the whole country was crying. It was a very sad affair...
    
    Ron Brown happened to be in the lime-light (although I doubt he
    received nearly the mourning that JFK received). Couth or not, it goes
    with the territory.

    There are people out here who make (or at least feel like they've made)
    connections to some of the 'lime-lighters'. Since they can't go to the
    funerals, the funerals are brought to them.
    
    One such example comes to mind...
    
    Look at Elvis. He affected a lot of people with his music.

    I feel like vomiting every time I see JFK's kid doing that salute. It's
    a terrible thing to do to a family, not letting them grieve, not
    letting them put that day behind them, forever capturing it on film.
    Anything for a story, I guess...

    JohnJohn's salute was probably on almost every newspaper in the world
    the next day.
    
    You can just imagine how the photographers there probably peed their
    pants trying to make sure they got the picture once they realized what
    this 3 year old boy was doing.
    

    The day of the funeral was also JohnJohn's birthday, as I recall.

 ZZ   all I can remember is "a little seltzer down your pants"
    
    It was...
    
    
    		A little song...
    
    
    			A little dance...
    
    
    
    				A little seltzer down your pants.

    one of the funniest shows i've ever watched.
    mary struggled with those scenes, that's why
    it turned out so hilariously.

    Was it the 'little seltzer down your pants' line which caused
    Mary Richards to lose it at the funeral?  (I know she couldn't
    stop laughing at some point in the funeral after chiding her
    co-workers all week about laughing at Chuckles' death.)
    

 I think the seltzer line is what sent her over the edge..

    i think they wrote the script _around_ her real inability
    to contain herself at the funeral...she just couldn't keep
    a straight face when doing shoots of the original script!
    so they wrote to it!  pretty smaht.

Obviously Ron, you're in a better place.

re. from a note I wrote a while back...


>>    And really, those who use this as a reason not to vote for him are
>>    really idiots (if there are any, though I'd be hard pressed to
>>    believe that people could be that stupid) .

    This really shouldn't come as a surprise for me, but I happened to
    catch either the beginning or tail end of Rush the other day, and
    you aren't going to believe what he's doing
    
    Well, you probably will believe it...
    
    Rush said he will be airing the
    
    "Clinton/Ron Brown Funeral/laughs/cries" <- for lack of something better
    						to call it...
    
    piece up until the November elections, just to prove what a "liar"
    Clinton is...
    
    These kind of antics never cease to amaze me.

    He pushes it enough and people may vote for Clinton, just because he is
    being picked on.  There was an editorial in one of the papers here in
    town suggesting that there could easily be a back-lash against the
    talk-radio people.
    
    meg