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Conference back40::soapbox

Title:	Soapbox. Just Soapbox.
Notice:	No more new notes
Moderator:	WAHOO::LEVESQUEONS

Created:	Thu Nov 17 1994
Last Modified:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	862
Total number of notes:	339684

694.0. "Search/Seizure" by BSS::DEVEREAUX () Wed Apr 03 1996 12:28

    I tried finding a note that dealt specifically with search and seizure
    and couldn't find one... Moderator, if you know of such a note, please
    feel free to move this.
    
    I noticed a fairly strong discussion going on regarding search and
    seizure in the FREEMAN topic. This reminded me of several incidents
    which occured in the late 80's/early 90's.
    
    One such incident was the search/seizure of the Jackson Game company.
    It went something like this...
    
    	In monitoring several BBS', the Feds stumbled upon a BBS named
    	Illuminati. For those of you unfamiliar with the Illuminati, it is
    	purported to be a world wide conspiracy for the New World Order.
    	Anyway, the Feds decided this (the board's name) was evidence enough
    	to search (and seize all property of) the Jackson Game company.
    
    	The owner just happened to arrive at his business as the Feds were
    	getting ready to break in the door, at which time he offered them
    	a key (they had a search warrant). Upon entering, and even after
    	being offered keys, they chose to break into several file cabinets.
    	They ended up confiscating just about everything that wasn't tied
    	down.
    
    In the end, they never even pressed charges. It took several years for
    Jackson to get his equipment back, which of course was obsolete by the
    time it was returned.
    
    I found the following incident to be kinda funny in a sick sort of way.
    It just goes to show how incompetent some people can be.
    
    	In this case, the Feds learned of some illegal Phreaking/Hacking
    	activity and eventually traced it to (I forget his name, let's just
    	call him Frank). Anyway, after raiding Frank's place, while he was
    	present, one of the agents pointed to a small square box plugged
    	into the wall with a phone line entering and exiting it.
    
    	"What's that?" the agent asked.
    
    	"It's a phone answering machine." Frank replied.
    
    	The agents ended up confiscating everything that was 'plugged' in
    	(or that looked remotely technical) as well as Franks extensive CD
    	collection (just in case any of the CD's really contained computer
    	data instead of music).
    
    There are other cases similar to the aforementioned, but it would take
    a book to write about them.
    
    All in all, the search and seizure laws are vague at best, thereby
    leaving an opening for some officials to abuse them.
    
    I find it quite disconcerting to hear that Colorado Springs is considering
    seizing car stereo equipment if someone is playing their stereo "too loud"
    (which is determined by the officer), and has already been warned twice
    before.
    
    Pretty soon they'll be confiscating the clothes of a shop-lifter (after
    all s/he used his/her pockets to put the stolen items in, right?).
    
    Don't get me wrong. I believe criminals should be punished. It's just
    that some things referred to as punishment doesn't make sense. Plus,
    the S/S law doesn't seem to support the "innocent until proven guilty"
    
    BTW, if you have property that you still owe on seized I'd bet you are
    still responsible for the bill.

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
694.1		CSC32::M_EVANS	It doesn't get better than......	`Wed Apr 03 1996 13:09`	22
	I am sick and tired of confiscatory laws, which are usually abused by overzealous thugs in blue uniforms, and perpetrated on innocent people. You forgot the seizure of a house in Pueblo a few years back. The cops/da decided to sieze it under the guise that it had been used in a crime. The crime was the step father (no title to the house the mom owned it) sexually assaulting his teen-aged stepdaughter. Talk about double victimization to the mom and the daughter. First she finds out hubby is true scum and that her oldest child has been violated by him, The child is traumatized, and then she and five kids are faced with homelessness to "punish" the perp who had no financial stake in the house and had only been married to the owner of the home for 6 months. Don't get me started on the "boom-car" rule. This is just one more stupid revenue raiser. We already have noise laws on the books that aren't being enforced. The fines are enough to put a dent in someones pocket and encourage them to turn down the volume, if the cops would bother to use their DB meters. I guess that makes to much sense, and that only an arbitrary law giving a cop the power to decide without technical evidence that the car is too loud is the way to go.
694.2		CSLALL::HENDERSON	Play ball!	`Wed Apr 03 1996 14:02`	14
	read today that the DEA wants to seize frequent flyer miles earned by a convicted smuggler, which they allege accumulated whilst the perp was doing in the business of smuggling. They (DEA) wants to convert the miles to tickets for use in drug related investigations. (I thought the miles were non transferable) Jim
694.3		BUSY::SLABOUNTY	A swift kick in the butt - $1	`Wed Apr 03 1996 14:05`	4
	Is that entry a couple days late, Jim, or are you reading The National Enquirer again?
694.4		SOLVIT::KRAWIECKI	tumble to remove burrs	`Wed Apr 03 1996 14:08`	3
	It was in today's Boston Globe....
694.5	Property Seizure Stats	EDWIN::PINETTE		`Wed Apr 03 1996 14:33`	61
	Facts About Property Forfeiture in U.S. --------------------------------------- (From Liberterian Party NEWS - April 1996) o - Number of Americans whose property has been seized under property forfeiture laws by federal, state, or local government since 1985: 200,000+ o - Number of different statutes under which federal agents can seize property: 200+ o - Dollar value of private property seized by state and federal law enforcement agents under the "civil forfeiture" laws: $4.1 billion. o - Dollar value of private property stolen by criminals in 1992: $3.8 billion. o - Percentage of asset forfeiture cases where the property owner is never charged with a crime - yet the government can and usually does keep the property: 80% o - Percentage increase, from 1985 to 1991, of the number of federal seizures of property: 1,500% o - The race of individuals whose property is seized in airports and on highways, because they fit the police profile of a drug courier: 75-90% Black or Hispanic. o - In New York, legislators have considered a law letting local officials confiscate "cars, boats, and planes" used in connections with any misdemeanor. o - In Georgia FBI agents seized three Mercedes-Benzes from a businesswoman after alleging that her husband placed illegal bets on sporting events from the car phones. o - In Texas and Florida, property forfeiture now applies to any criminal activity. o - In New Jersey, it applies to any alleged criminal activity. o - In Massachusetts, the state can seize the assets of corporations that violate environmental laws. o - The Immingration and Naturalization Service has seized more than 30,000 cars and trucks since 1990 from people helping illegal immigrants enter the U.S. o - In New Jersey, officials confiscated home office equipment from a man charged with practicing psychiatry without a license. o - In Washington, D.C. police routinely stop pedestrians and confiscate small amounts of cash and jewelry, even when no drugs are found and no charges filed. Examples and statistics from: Lost Rights by James Bovard, St. Martins Press (1994) Forfeiting Our Property Rights by Rep. Henry Hyde, Cato Institute (1995)
694.6		MKOTS3::JMARTIN	Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs.	`Wed Apr 03 1996 14:48`	4
	Very interesting how 90% of those who lose their property are black or hispanic; however the innocent ones are 80%. Pretty racist coming from an institution (Washington DC) who claims their ass is lilly white in the area of racial equality.
694.7		SOLVIT::KRAWIECKI	tumble to remove burrs	`Wed Apr 03 1996 14:49`	5
	re: .5 Now, Lunchie will pipe in and say: "Yeah? So what's your point?"
694.8		PENUTS::DDESMAISONS	person B	`Wed Apr 03 1996 14:51`	3
	.6 could you please explain how you made this interpretation, jack? i don't understand what you said.
694.9		MKOTS3::JMARTIN	Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs.	`Wed Apr 03 1996 14:55`	15
	Sorry Di. What I was saying was our federal government seizes property. 90% of people who get their property seized is 90% black/hispanic. However, those who are shown to be innocent after getting their property seized is 80%. This means our government assumes that there is a high guilt ratio in the black/hispanic segment of our population when the numbers state otherwise. It is interesting how our government, a bloated institution ladened with social engineering programs to stop discrimination shows itself to be the biggest racist of all. -Jack
694.10		BUSY::SLABOUNTY	A swift kick in the butt - $1	`Wed Apr 03 1996 15:00`	7
	If it matters, the 75-90% number related to airports and high- ways ... apparently doesn't include other seizures. The 80% number is all-encompassing, however, so it's hard to draw any conclusions between these details.
694.11		PENUTS::DDESMAISONS	person B	`Wed Apr 03 1996 15:19`	6
	> <<< Note 694.9 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>> > 90% of people who get their property seized is 90% black/hispanic. where does it say that?
694.12		MKOTS3::JMARTIN	Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs.	`Wed Apr 03 1996 15:41`	5
	Z The race of individuals whose property is seized in airports and on Z highways, because they fit the police profile of a drug courier: Z 75-90% Black or Hispanic. I guess I need to read for comprehension Di! The details do help.