Conference back40::soapbox

 Nothing.

    
    
    Go out and wax some car windows...
    

    
    well for me its bowling night, so I guess I will do just that.

	I was gonna be the Tick, but then decided against it..... maybe next
year spandex will look better..... :-)

    -1
    
    ...or maybe not!  8^)

    
    Hopefully, Chunk-O-Funk will be playing at the BamBoo, as they do
    every Hallowe'en.
    

nice buck....reeeeeeeeal nice! :-)

    I think I'll go and hack a few people to death....like I do every year.
    
    
    
    CHARLEY

    Why of course hang out in Salem....

CHARLEY...be creative.  Do it a la St. Sebastian!!!

re .4

I thought you had said "Trick".

| <<< Note 567.11 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>


| I thought you had said "Trick".


	HEY!!!! Now there is an idea! Thanks!

    Got a boogie man mask and am going to scare the crap out of the
    neighborhood kids!:) There is, for the older kids only, cold cooked
    spegitti and jello in a bag. And for the young ones, clearly, just
    candy no trixs.:) But am going to have a Hellofatime with it this
    year!!:)

    
    Don't forget your Judge Ito masks!
    

i think the oj ones would be more scary

    I have to work that night.
    
    Wauh!!!!!!

    
> 	I was gonna be the Tick, but then decided against it..... maybe next
> year spandex will look better..... :-)
    
    aaaawwww why be bashful Glen, I'm sure you'll look good in spandex...
    :-)
    

    I don't celebrate any of the Satanic holidays.

I know .18 is probably flamebait, but how is Halloween a "satanic holiday"?
Other than perhaps an occasional little kid dressed as a devil?

    Dress kids up in funny costumes and send them out for candy...
    
    
    EVIL I TELL YOU!!!!   EVIL!!!!!!!

    holy-ca-smowly
    
    I can't believe it's almost haloween again ! Sadly, this year will not
    be celebrated. Last year was great though. The two little dudes and 
    got loads of candy and were most generous in with there offerings.
    Wish I was back in Atlanta again... {sniff}

I could bring my kid in to visit uncle Martin if it would make you happier.


\C

    yeah yeah !!! brings me them lollies by the bucket full !!

re-1

>    yeah yeah !!! brings me them lollies by the bucket full !!

translation please?


\C

    What's the deal with halloween over here ? Is it a big thing ? Does
    it exist ?

    translation:
    
    Give me the food !!

It does exist in small pockets in the suburbs - fortunately _very_ small for 
the main part.  It was practically unheard of a few years back, but TV, 
marketing etc exposure is increasing.

\C

    >I know .18 is probably flamebait, but how is Halloween a "satanic holiday"?
    
    Ask any satanist.  It's 1 of their 3 high holidays that occur at this
    time of year.

re .28:

I don't know any Satanists.  Why would Satanists use a pagan holiday, anyway?
(wait, the Christians did it, so I guess they might)

Hmm, one of the pagan holidays the Christians usurped (sort of) was Halloween
(All Saints' Day/All Souls' Day) so I guess that cancels the Satanists' use of
it, if any. 

    
    it has nothing to do with Satanic worship. If anything it's more 
    of a religious holiday. Visit Salem, MA sometime.
    Check-out Laurie Cabot the witch of that city.
    
    
    
    

re .25/.27:

Halloween sort of would be out of place for you guys.  It sort of has its roots
in everything dying off in the fall, but you guys have Halloween during spring.

What is commonly called "Halloween", i.e. the running around in costumes,
has nothing to do with its name, which means "The Eve of the Feast of All
Saints".  [BTW, there's a major blow-out at All Saints � Ashmont, Dorchester,
with Mozart's Missa Brevis, Britten's Te Deum in C, guest soloists, strings,
and the new Fisk Organ on 1 November at 7:30pm.  But I digress.]

Thirty years ago, Halloween was just a fun dress-up day.  Now, we have people
who practice Satanism as their religion and look forward to this annual
celebration.  If you own a cat, especially a black one, and hope to keep it,
I suggest you keep it indoors for the next two weeks.  There is a major
increase in missing cats during late October.

It's time for other people to step back from this celebration.  Replace it
with parties for children where the only approved costumes are positive role
models.  Have your children represent heroic ideals rather than exalting evil
anti-heroes.

Running around in evil costumes -- dressed as O.J. or Dracula or the like --
is not good for developing young minds.

Evil is real, and the cult that has developed around Halloween is a way for
it to wander through the world seeking the ruin of anyone it can get its
evil hands on.  Stay away from it.

(Followers of The Craft also observe a festival called "Samhain" at this time,
but claim that their celebration has naught to do with the evil which has
entered the commercial celebration of Halloween.)

/john

    So it's ok for me to come into work dressed as a Power Ranger this
    year ?? !! :*)

Great idea, I think you'd look fabulous as Kimberley!

    That would be the pink one... right ?? :*) 
    
    
    I sent that suit to Glen !

From this time forth I shall think of you as the Lycra Lad.  

I'm more of a Rita Repulsa, 'cept for the mascara.


\C

    .10
    
    8^)

    No dressing up on the outside but I will be wearing my Spiderman
    underoos.  
    
    RE: The rest of the superstitious garbage, I agree to some extent with
    Covert the rest, eeesh....
    
    Brian

    
    
    Saw a piece of an old America's Funniest Home Videos last night where
    this guy was sitting on his porch dressed as a scarecrow with a bowl of
    candy on his lap... 
    
     He didn't move a muscle, and when one of the kids took more candy than
    the sign said to, the guy piped up and scared the crap outa the kid!!
    
    Funny!!
    

    A guy on my street did that and scared the crap outa me, my kids didn't
    flinch.

    
    
    Is that what lead to your career in "dropped trou"????
    

    Nope, that would be the boxtrail.

    
    And to *where* does this "boxtrail" lead?
    

    Ooops.

    >He didn't move a muscle, and when one of the kids took more candy than
    >the sign said to, the guy piped up and scared the crap outa the kid!!
    
     This is the kind of evil crap that that Covert is talking about. What
    kind of a positive roll model is a scarecrow anyway. HOLLOWEEN SHOULD
    BE OUTLAWED. I'm going to write my congressman RIGHT NOW!!!!  <|:-)> 

    
    I guess that means I can't do Halloween as Elvira, Mistress of the
    Dark, this year.
    
    

    
    	[drool]
    

    No, you can be Elvira if you wish.  Your soul is at stake but that is
    entirely up to you.  Anyone who wears that much make up must be evil. 
    Just look at Tammy Faye!  Evil incarnate I say!  

    
�    Ask any satanist.  It's 1 of their 3 high holidays that occur at this
�    time of year.

   Let me guess, are the other 2 Christmas and Easter?
kb

    
    
    
    And I thought it was National "clean the lint out of your navel" Day.

>I don't know any Satanists.  Why would Satanists use a pagan holiday, anyway?
>(wait, the Christians did it, so I guess they might)
    
    who had it first, the pagans or the Satanists?

>Hmm, one of the pagan holidays the Christians usurped (sort of) was Halloween
>(All Saints' Day/All Souls' Day) so I guess that cancels the Satanists' use of
>it, if any. 
    
    You guess wrong, and I believe it is a Catholic holiday.  No Christian
    church or denomination I've been a part of has celebrated it, but they
    did at the Catholic high school I attended.  The church didn't seize it.  
    It was adopted by the Catholic church after Constantine's conversion 
    since he didn't fire the pagan priests in his court.
    
    Mike

>�    Ask any satanist.  It's 1 of their 3 high holidays that occur at this
>�    time of year.
>
>   Let me guess, are the other 2 Christmas and Easter?
    
    Do Christmas and Ishtar occur this time of year or do you want to try
    another guess?
    
    Mike

    Ishtar  - wasn't that a blockbuster movie?
kb

    re: .45
    
    >positive roll model 
    
    Let me guess!!!
    
    You're going as the Pillsbury Dough Boy this year?????
    

    
    .46
    
    mz_debra, do not listen to these heathens. You can dress as Elvira
    anytime, anyplace. hth, nnttm, kfc. ymmv

    >>positive roll model
    
    >    Let me guess!!!
    
    >    You're going as the Pillsbury Dough Boy this year?????
    
    
    :)  good one!!  :)

    Actually the pagans had this as a holiday first, it was co-opted by
    christianity, and then by satanists.  It was originally the last of the
    harvest festivals, and the beginnings of the lean times, a place where
    people believed the wall between worlds was very thin.  
    
    You see as a practicing pagan, I don't believe in what is a christian
    diety, only a skewed christian would worship a diety that is in their
    mythology.  Remember Christianity, and even judaism is a fairly new
    religion.
    
    meg
    
    But then we've been through this arguement before.
    
    

    
    re. 45
    
    They just had something on the news about a town wanting to outlaw
    Halloween and the kids Halloween school parade. Bunch of local-yocals
    claimed Halloween lead to Satinism and they had some bible thumbing guy
    waving a book on witches saying he turned to Satinism and it all
    started from going out at Halloween, but now he has seen the light.
    
    The whole school auditorium of people were laughing at the guy.
    
    Get a life.
    
    

    Meg, I think the order of adoption is paganism -> satanism ->
    catholicism.

    
    
    re.59
    
    No, you see without a christian belief structure there is no satanism.  
    
    meg

    
    So?
    
    Paganinity don't have their own boogie-man???
    

re .51:

>    who had it first, the pagans or the Satanists?

The pagans invented the holiday, and probably celebrated it long before
the birth of Christ.  

re .60:

I agree.  Satanism requires Christianity to exist, as to know of Satan requires
one to know of the God of the Bible.  (besides, I think most "Satanism"
reported that really exists is there just to yank the chains of Christians, and
the amount of Satanism is exaggerated.) 

If Christianity grabbed Halloween in Constantine's time as .51 states, that's
rather early, I can't see any sort of Satanism movement then.  Would
Constantine even have known of Halloween?  It was a Celtic idea.

Association of Halloween with Satanism is probably left over from the days
of the early church, who claimed just about every local holiday/celebration
(that they didn't appropiate) was Satanism of some sort to get the converted
to apply pressure on the as-yet-unconverted.

    
  That's Mr. Paganinity to you.
    

    
    I have found a new religion!
    

       re .63:
       
       Didn't he compose Variations on a Theme by Haydn?

>    No, you see without a christian belief structure there is no satanism.  
    
    meg, that isn't always the case and besides Anton LaVey and his cronies
    disagree with you.

>I agree.  Satanism requires Christianity to exist, as to know of Satan requires
>one to know of the God of the Bible.  (besides, I think most "Satanism"
>reported that really exists is there just to yank the chains of Christians, and
>the amount of Satanism is exaggerated.) 
    
    Talk to a law enforcement officer in any major city.  It's not only
    there, but related crimes are on the increase.

>If Christianity grabbed Halloween in Constantine's time as .51 states, that's
>rather early, I can't see any sort of Satanism movement then.  Would
>Constantine even have known of Halloween?  It was a Celtic idea.
    
    Christianity didn't grab anything.  Ask yourself a question: why would
    that church get involved?  Constantine's knowledge is irrelevant since
    half of his priestly court were pagan priests.

>Association of Halloween with Satanism is probably left over from the days
>of the early church, who claimed just about every local holiday/celebration
>(that they didn't appropiate) was Satanism of some sort to get the converted
>to apply pressure on the as-yet-unconverted.

    It actually goes back to Babylon.
    
    Mike

    
      I have decided to hand out Mars bars this year.
    
      bb

    	I make the kiddies at the door sing Christmas carols for their
    	candy.  Usually I have one of the Mitch Miller sing-along 
    	Christmas record playing in the background, and I ask the kids 
    	to sing along.

Christianity didn't "grab" anything.  Christians who observe a liturgical
calendar (Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, etc.)
have chosen one day out of the year to honor all the people who have gone
before us (i.e. not just those who are honored on specific days).

FOR THE FEAST OF ALL SAINTS (1 NOVEMBER)

READING: Ecclesiasticus 44:1-10,13-14
 ("Let us now praise famous men...."; a commemoration of
partriarchs, prophets, and other heroes of ancient Israel.)

ALTERNATE READING: Isaiah 26:1-4,8-9,12-13,19-21
 ("Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on
Thee....  Awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust.")

PSALM 34
 (The Lord watches over those who trust in Him.)

EPISTLE: Ephesians 1:1-23
 (The heavenly glory in union with Christ that awaits the redeemed.)

GOSPEL: Matthew 5:1-12
 (From the Sermon on the Mount: "Blessed are those who hunger and
thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied." etc.)

PRAYERS

O Almighty God, who hast knit together thine elect in one communion
and fellowship, in the mystical body of thy Son Christ our Lord:
Grant us grace so to follow thy blessed saints in all virtuous and
godly living, that we may come to those indescribable joys which
thou hast prepared for those who truly love thee: through the same
Jesus Christ our Lord, who with thee and the Holy Spirit liveth and
reigneth, one God, in glory everlasting.

Almighty God, who by thy Holy Spirit hast made us one with thy
saints in heaven and on earth: Grant that in our earthly pilgrimage
we may always be supported by this fellowship of love and prayer,
and know ourselves to be surrounded by their witness to thy power
and mercy. We ask this for the sake of Jesus Christ, in whom all our
intercessions are acceptable through the Spirit, and who liveth and
reigneth for ever and ever.

Almighty and everlasting God, we yield unto thee most high praise
and hearty thanks for the wonderful grace and virtue declared in all
thy saints, who have been the chosen vessels of thy grace, and the
lights of the world in their several generations: for Abraham, the
father of believers, and Sarah his wife; for Moses the lawgiver, and
Aaron the priest; for Miriam and Joshua, Deborah and Gideon, and
Samuel with Hannah his mother, and for all the holy patriarchs; for
Isaiah and all the prophets; for the Blessed Virgin Mary, the mother
of Jesus Christ our Lord and God; for Peter and Paul and all the
apostles; for Mary and Martha, and Mary Magdalene; for Stephen, the
first martyr, and for all the martyrs; and for all other thy
righteous servants, known to us and unknown; and we beseech thee
that, rejoicing in their fellowship, encouraged by their examples,
and aided by their prayers, we also may run with steadfastness the
race that is set before us, and finish our course in faith; and that
at the day of the general resurrection, we, with all those who are
of the mystical body of thy Son, may be set on his right hand, and
hear that his most joyful voice: "Come, ye blessed of my Father,
inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the
world." Grant this, O Father, for the sake of the same thy Son Jesus
Christ, our only Mediator and Advocate.

    
    <-- you are a cruel, cruel man Joe. :-)

    
      Down with Spooky World !!
    
      bb

    
    BOO!
    

    Anton levy came out of a christian upbringing, and the religion was
    started well after christianity, particularly levy's flavor.  
    
    For the most part the Satanic BS that goes on, is kids who are twisted
    and use "ritual sacrifice" to justify their twisted need to torture
    animals. 
    
    And we have the "repressed memory" shrinks who are heavily into ritual
    child abuse.  Amazing how many satanist parents there were coming out
    of churches.
    
    meg

    I only brought up Anton as an example of what you are trying to ignore.
    He's actually of the Saturday-morning-cartoon-brand of Satanism.  The
    hard core ones you don't really hear about or know about unless you
    meet one or know a homicide detective in a major metro area.  The hard
    core ones are responsible for people having to keep a close eye on
    their children and family pets.  Any notions of twisted kids and the
    like being responsible for this stuff is laughable.  You simply don't
    know what you're talking about.
    
    Hard core Satanists use the "black mass" handbooks, which are full of 
    rituals all calling for detestable and unmentionable things to be done to 
    children and various types of animals.  They even have "surrogate mothers" 
    who's sole purpose is to give birth to a sacrifice.  They also spend the
    month of October praying that Christian clergymen are hindered and fall 
    into immorality.  The *LEAST* we should be doing is praying for God
    to provide a hedge of protection around our families and pastors, 
    ministers, or priests.
    
    Mike

    
    Mike,
    
    It is _you_ sir, who doesn't know what you're talking about.
    I know you _think_ you know what you're talking about because
    you might have read this book or that, or talked to this
    crackpot or that (especially the ever-flatulent "I was a
    Satanist but not I'm SAVED!!" crowd.) But, of course, if
    you really knew that much about Satanism you would be able
    to answer two very simple questions:
    
    1. What are the two leading "orders" in organized Satanism?
    
    2. Who is credited with starting the modern practice of
       Satanism?
    
    Have at it Mike...
    
    -b

    
    
    Well, one of them is Barney and the otherone is prolly either OJ or
    Marge Schott.

Say, I've seen a lot of little ghosts and pumpkins 
hanging in trees in the Maynard area...but not one
black cat!  I am very suspicious now.      

    the lady next door used to give out caramel apples when i was 
    a kid, so you had to go there last because, well, logistics 
    problem otherwise.  

    friend of mine knew a crazy lady who gave each kid a scoop
    of ice cream one year.

Halloween was my favorite holiday when I was kid.
It was just so cool to run around the neighborhood
with your friends.  I always dressed as a hobo and
ma would smear that cork soot on my face.  A blast.

 we were always gypsies, it seemed.  very creative, oh yes.

oh, the homemade costumes were always the best.
funky, and good for running.

 .85 how true.  thy speech is
     quite comely you know.

    
    	I put on some of mom's and sister's clothes one year [skirt, wig,
    	nylons, lipstick, etc.] but dad wouldn't let me leave the house
    	looking like that.
    
    	8^)
    

    >	I put on some of mom's and sister's clothes one year [skirt, wig,
    >	nylons, lipstick, etc.] but dad wouldn't let me leave the house
    >	looking like that.
    
    Yeahbut, what did you wear on Halloween?
    
    -b

    
    	Oh, sorry ... an Underdog costume.
    

| <<< Note 567.17 by DEVLPR::DKILLORAN "Uneasy Rider" >>>



| aaaawwww why be bashful Glen, I'm sure you'll look good in spandex...

	Hey.... Kirby is an equal opportunity vacuum! How nice! :-)


Glen

>                      <<< Note 567.77 by CAPNET::ROSCH >>>
>                      -< Here's some facts -don't choke >-
>    	http://limestone.kosone.com/people/ocrt/ra_none.htm
    
    There are some basic flaws with these "facts," one of which is it
    assume SRA's have a reason to be truthful about their involvement. 
    This is just another reason why WWW/Internet repositories are rarely
    trustworthy.  The evidence exists, but you won't find it in print. 
    Some things are just better left unsaid...
    
>    Rumours of human sacrifice and abuse have been with us for almost two
>    millennia; it is doubtful that it will disappear overnight. It is
    
    It's more than rumor.  Ancient historical records document it.  Try
    research on the Aztecs and even some of the Old Testament
    tribes/nations (hint: worship of the pagan god Molech).
    
    Mike

>    1. What are the two leading "orders" in organized Satanism?
    
    Brian, do you want the name, level #, or both?
    
>    2. Who is credited with starting the modern practice of
>       Satanism?
    
    by "modern" do you mean this century?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

       > I make the kiddies at the door sing Christmas carols for their	
       > candy.  
       
       How nice that you assume all of the kids are Christmas-oriented. 
       That attitude is precisely why many people react negatively to
       suggestions of prayer or even organized moments of silence in
       public schools.
       
       Perhaps it's time to drop leaflets on your neighborhood with some
       nice alternative lyrics to Christmas songs ("Good King Wenceslas
       went down/On the Queen of Sweden...")
       
       

re .67:

>    Talk to a law enforcement officer in any major city.  It's not only
>    there, but related crimes are on the increase.

Most of what law enforcement sees in a big city is either demented kids/adults
or in some places with certain ethnic groups, voodoo or other pagan religions,
including some strange Christian influenced pagan religions.  The pagans
certainly aren't worshipping Satan, as non-Christians they don't believe in
Satan per se, although they may have an evil god/gods.   The bizarre
Christian-influenced pagan religions are hard to call.  They certainly aren't
Christians; they just incorporated some ideas but they are essentially still
voodoo practitioner/animists/whatever.  I suppose some "borrowed" Satan and
may even have a devilish-appearing deity as a god of evil but if so they
probably try to appease him rather than actually worshipping him.

>>If Christianity grabbed Halloween in Constantine's time as .51 states, that's
>>rather early, I can't see any sort of Satanism movement then.  Would
>>Constantine even have known of Halloween?  It was a Celtic idea.
    
>    Christianity didn't grab anything.  Ask yourself a question: why would
>    that church get involved?

By "grab" I mean they instituted a holiday on/near a related pagan holiday that
was too well-established to simply squelch.  In the case of Halloween/Samhain
(a Celt day the dead were supposed to walk the earth or something) the
Christians placed a day to honor the dead with no feast day of their own. Same
with the placement of Christmas, they didn't know the day of Christ's birth so
it was convenient to place it on Saturnalia/Winter Solstice celebration, hoping
the locals would go to their party rather than the old ones.  Easter as well
(look at the origin of the name) although the time of year for Easter was
known and set.

  Constantine's knowledge is irrelevant since
>    half of his priestly court were pagan priests.

But again, were they Celtic pagans that knew of Samhain?

re .76:

Thanks for a good example of the exaggerated fear I mentioned earlier.

-Mike

>including some strange Christian influenced pagan religions.  The pagans
>certainly aren't worshipping Satan, as non-Christians they don't believe in
>Satan per se, although they may have an evil god/gods.   The bizarre
>Christian-influenced pagan religions are hard to call.  They certainly aren't
>Christians; they just incorporated some ideas but they are essentially still
    
    "Christian-influenced pagan religions" is quite an oxymoron.  Care to
    provide an example or did you make this up?
    
>By "grab" I mean they instituted a holiday on/near a related pagan holiday that
>was too well-established to simply squelch.  In the case of Halloween/Samhain
>(a Celt day the dead were supposed to walk the earth or something) the
>Christians placed a day to honor the dead with no feast day of their own. Same
    
    I think you're confusing Christians with a specific church. 
    
    >But again, were they Celtic pagans that knew of Samhain?
    
    I'd have to research it.  I'm sure they knew "Samhain" even if they
    used another name.
    
    Mike

re .95:

>    "Christian-influenced pagan religions" is quite an oxymoron.  Care to
>    provide an example or did you make this up?

Not really although it seems so at first.  By this I mean voodoo/animist/
whatever that have incorporated ideas or stories from the Bible into their own
religion but they aren't Christians.  Perhaps they have a story about the
creation of mankind that involves temptation by an evil snake, or even a god
sent to save man that was born to a virgin woman but certainly isn't
recognizable as Jesus.

I didn't make this up, I read something about a butchered bear's body that was
found in Central Park, NYC that was initially blamed on "Satanists" but was
later found to be voodoo-related from Carribean people, and the story discussed
Christianity influenced voodoo a little.  I've heard of this before in other
stories. 

>    I think you're confusing Christians with a specific church. 

Technically you're right I guess, seeing that Christianity quickly formed a few
sects/subsets such as Copts so almost any belief not set immediately is
only of "a specific church".  In this case I mean the Western church that has
since evolved into the Catholics and Protestants of today, that is most
Christians in the US.

                     <<< Note 567.93 by CALLME::MR_TOPAZ >>>

>       How nice that you assume all of the kids are Christmas-oriented. 
    
    	How nice that you assume Christmas carols must be religious.
    
    	Find me a kid that doesn't know Jingle Bells and you'd have a 
    	legitimate complaint.

BTW, Mike:

Who told you that Constantine had anything to do with All Saints Day?
Like so many of your sources, it was wrong.

In fact, the date has varied, with the Eastern Church (the Church of
Constantinople) currently celebrating it on the first Sunday after
Pentecost.

Another date was May 13th, chosen in honor of all martyrs in 609.

The earliest evidence of the November date is sometime around 731,
when a chapel in Rome was dedicated in honor of All Saints.

It was ordered generally observed in 837.

/john

>Easter as well (look at the origin of the name) although the time of year
>for Easter was known and set.

"Easter" is only the common name in Germanic-language countries.

The official Church name in Greek and Latin for the feast is "Pascha" --
because it celebrates the Lord's Passover from death into life.

This name appears in English in the adjective "pascal".

And, of course, the French word for the feast is "P�ques".

/john

 trick or snarf!

       re .97:
       
       Now, Joe, who are you trying to fool?  You talked about asking the
       kids to sing Christmas carols: are you now doing the Our-Jack-
       Backtrack to say that your Mitch Miller Christmas album includes
       Jingle Bells and Frosty the Snowman, but not Silent Night or O
       Come All Ye Faithful or any of the other Christmas-oriented songs?
       
       Sheesh, indeed.
       
       Your asking kids to sing Christmas carols is manipulative, Joe. 
       One can only imagine the fuss you would make if your kids stopped
       at the house of atheists or homosexuals (or democrats or any other
       group that sends you into paroxysms of fear) and were asked to
       sing songs that promoted their particular lifestyle. 
       
       Shame on you, Joe.  It's one thing to try to fool Soapboxers into
       believing that your album has only Jingle Bells; it's quite
       another thing to try to manipulate trick-or-treating kids. 
       Whether or not the kids sing Christmas-related songs should be
       their parents' call, and not yours.
       
       --Mr Topaz

                    <<< Note 567.101 by CALLME::MR_TOPAZ >>>

>       Now, Joe, who are you trying to fool?  You talked about asking the
>       kids to sing Christmas carols: are you now doing the Our-Jack-
>       Backtrack to say that your Mitch Miller Christmas album includes
>       Jingle Bells and Frosty the Snowman, but not Silent Night or O
>       Come All Ye Faithful or any of the other Christmas-oriented songs?
    
    	Precisely.  Maybe you have some different album, but my album 
    	has without exception only secular songs.  Anticipating your
    	question, I brought my album into work today.  Here is the
    	lineup:
    
    	Santa Claus is Coming to Town
    	Frosty the Snowman
    	I Saw Momma Kissing Santa Claus
    	Sleigh Ride
    	Must Be Santa
    	The Christmas Song (chestnust roasting on an open fire)
    	Rudolph
    	12 Days of Christmas
    	Winter Wonderland
    	Let it Snow, Let it Snow, Let it Snow
    	Silver Bells
    	Jingle Bells
    	White Christmas
    	
>       Sheesh, indeed.
    
    	I stand by my sheesh.
       
>       Your asking kids to sing Christmas carols is manipulative, Joe. 
    
    	You are trying to manipulate this issue into something that it is
    	not.  This halloween season must have you seeing boogeymen.  There
    	are no demons behind this tree.
    
>       One can only imagine the fuss you would make if your kids stopped
>       at the house of atheists or homosexuals (or democrats or any other
>       group that sends you into paroxysms of fear) and were asked to
>       sing songs that promoted their particular lifestyle. 
    
    	It's amazing how you can turn simple fun into something evil.
    	Do you practice at it?  What makes you fear what I am doing?
       
>       Shame on you, Joe.  It's one thing to try to fool Soapboxers into
>       believing that your album has only Jingle Bells; it's quite
>       another thing to try to manipulate trick-or-treating kids. 
    
    	So who is being the fool here?  I suggest that you check under
    	your bed before going to sleep tonight...
    
    	As for manipulating, the kids that sing the best get the bigger
    	hershey bars.
    
>       Whether or not the kids sing Christmas-related songs should be
>       their parents' call, and not yours.
       
    	Sheesh again.

 Maybe you should provide a release form for the kids to have their parents
 sign before singing the songs, Joe?  

Those aren't Christmas Carols, Joe.

/john

       Joe, if "The Christmas Song" and "12 Days of Christmas" aren't
       Christmas-oriented songs, I'm not sure which songs just might be.
       And when do you suppose Santa Claus drops by the house -- election
       day?
       
       The point is exactly this, Joe: some people do not choose to
       celebrate Christmas.  It is difficult enough for the children of
       such people to understand why their family does not celebrate
       Christmas while many if not most of their schoolmates celebrate
       Christmas.  These kids also do not get visits from Santa Claus,
       and that's another issue that can be tricky to deal with.  Whether
       or not children are asked to sing Christmas-oriented songs is
       something for their parents to decide, and not for you to decide.
       
       It might be fun for you to have kids sing Santa Claus songs other
       Christmas songs, but it definitely is not fun for the parents of
       those kids who don't celebrate Christmas.  There's nothing wrong
       with having kids sing Christmas songs in an appropriate
       environment -- a church group, or at a Christmas party, for
       example -- but certainly not during trick-or-treat. 
       
       I'm sure that you'd feel it was "simple fun" if your kids came
       home from trick-or-treat with some Chick tracts, or humming the
       "Internationale" that some nice parents taught them to sing.
       
       --Mr Topaz

 'tis gettin' so a guy can't have any fun anymore..



 Jim

                    <<< Note 567.105 by CALLME::MR_TOPAZ >>>

>       Joe, if "The Christmas Song" and "12 Days of Christmas" aren't
>       Christmas-oriented songs, I'm not sure which songs just might be.
    
    	So, now that you've been left hanging in the breeze with your
    	first series of accusations, your next attempt is to make
    	the Twelve Days of Christmas into an evil song too.  How sad.
    	Yup, the commercialization of the holiday sure is offensive
    	to some.  Perhaps you have a point...
    
>       The point is exactly this, Joe: some people do not choose to
>       celebrate Christmas.  It is difficult enough for the children of
>       such people to understand why their family does not celebrate
>       Christmas while many if not most of their schoolmates celebrate
>       Christmas.  
    
    	And some people do not celebrate Halloween.  It is difficult
    	enough for the children of such families to understand why
    	their families do not celebrate Halloween without you sending
    	your kids to their doors to extort candy from them...
    
    	I'll celebrate my holidays as I see fit.  Practically anything
    	will offend SOMEBODY.  I can't live my life worrying about the
    	minority few who will be offended by chestnuts roasting on an
    	open fire, or the 12 days of Christmas.  Nor do you, or you
    	would also be taking issue with the imposition of halloween
    	upon your non-practicing neighbors by juvenile door-to-door 
    	practitioners.
    
	Take a look at how thoroughly ridiculous your argument is.  

    I guess I'll do the regular walk around the neighborhood checking out
    the costumes. I like to keep my eyes out for freaks and loonies (real
    ones) and aggressive teens. Once I called the cops on a guy who was
    just sorta lurking in the bushes and as it turns out a little boy had
    been sexually assaulted that night in the area. The cops came and the
    guy started to move then they picked him up, who knows what he was up
    to. One year I caught a goon stealing candy from some kids, the kids
    gave me a reward. After that I'll head to the bar.

       Here is the nut of the problem.  The words are not mine, they are
       Joe Oppelt's, who first brought the topic up in .69:

           	I make the kiddies at the door sing Christmas carols
           for their candy.  Usually I have one of the Mitch Miller
           sing-along Christmas record playing in the background,
           and I ask the kids to sing along.

       No one has told Joe Oppelt that his Christmas songs are bad or
       evil; no one has told Joe Oppelt how he should or shouldn't
       celebrate Halloween.  The line is drawn, though, when Joe Oppelt
       "make the kiddies at the door sing Christmas [songs] for their
       candy."  Have the melodious strains of Mitch & his band wafting
       throughout your house, have a 50' tree in your living room,
       decorate your house with 300 trillion lights -- but don't make
       little kids sing Christmas songs for you.
       
       > now that you've been left hanging in the breeze with your	
       > first series of accusations

       My initial accusation (.93) was that "you assume all of the kids
       are Christmas-oriented [which you apparently do]," followed by
       suggesting that the songs were Christmas-oriented [which nearly
       all of them are].  
       
       --Mr Topaz

                    <<< Note 567.109 by CALLME::MR_TOPAZ >>>

>       Here is the nut of the problem.  The words are not mine, they are
>       Joe Oppelt's, who first brought the topic up in .69:
>
>           ... and I ask the kids to sing along.
		      ^^^
>       The line is drawn, though, when Joe Oppelt
>       "make the kiddies at the door sing Christmas [songs] ...
    
    	*HERE* is the nut's problem.  Eventhough I clarified the 
    	word "make" in the very first statement I made, and which 
    	you quoted, you have attributed undue meaning to the word.
    	You MAKE a boogeyman where none exists.  In your zeal to
    	expose the evils of religious pressure, you have concocted
    	a demon that is solely of your own making.  I'm not forcing
    	anyone to do anything.  I'm not asking them to sing along
    	to religious songs as you originally claimed.  (How many
    	of the kids would even know the religious songs?)  This is
    	purely simple, innocent fun, and I haven't had a kid or a
    	parent complain about it yet.  And most every kid has known
    	the words and has sung along in the years that I've been
    	doing this.
    
    	Take off your fog-colored glasses, Don.  Your argument is
    	clearly a witch hunt, and anyone who bothers to read what
    	you wrote can see it for what it truly is.

| <<< Note 567.102 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Wanna see my scar?" >>>



| As for manipulating, the kids that sing the best get the bigger hershey bars.

	Joe, this is manipulation at it's worst. The kids who sing the best get
the biggest bars. Talk about manipulating a kid. 

	So tell us what happens if a group of kids come to your door, some sing,
some don't. Do you give the ones who sing a bigger bar than those who do not?

	When kids show up as single group kids, do you give the ones who sing
bigger candy over ones who do not?

	Do you give a group of kids different size candy bars when some sing
better? I mean, right in front of them? 



Glen

    
    Mike,

    As I have said to you in the past, I believe that you are both
    earnest and honest in matters of faith. I'm sure that you
    thoroughly believe that you understand the nature of Satanism.
    I'm also sure, as sure as I can be about anything, that you
    know absolutely nothing about it, save for the usual FUD of
    the Fenholt variety (i.e. fools).

    I asked you two specific questions which have either correct
    or wrong answers.  Either you know the answers or you do not.

    The ultimate irony is that as you know, Satan is "the father
    of lies", and yet it is the Christian churches, in association
    with people of weak and unworthy character, that have perpetrated
    the greatest lies about Satanism.

    Both "sides" (Christians who bother worrying about Satanists
    and self-professed Satanists) really look and behave quite silly,
    in my humble opinion. One bunch of loonies worrying about the
    other. I don't think you're a loony Mike, but unless you forget
    about this Satanism hogwash you might convince me otherwise! :-)

    -b

    	What do you mean by that, Glen?

	Nice diversion, Joe. I am only left with you can't answer them. I hope
that you are able to answer them though, as it would show us if you are
manipulating little kids or not.


Glen

    PAGAN WAYS LIVE ON

    Annie Nakao
    OF THE EXAMINER STAFF

    Sun, Oct. 22, 1995

    EXAMINER / PAUL CHINN

    WHEN ZSUZSANNA E. Budapest heard that the Los Altos school board had
    dropped its brief ban on Halloween festivities, she declared that "we
    have the holiday back again!"

    To Budapest, a Bay Area witch and avowed pagan, Halloween - falling at
    the midpoint between the autumnal equinox and the winter solstice - is
    a natural occurrence.

    That was not the viewpoint of the school board, which had forbidden
    Halloween costumes, crafts and parades during school hours because the
    Oct. 31 celebration smacked of religion. But the wrath of outraged
    parents and several days of nationwide publicity prompted the board to
    drop the idea last Monday.

    Just as it should be, said Budapest.

    "These pagan calendars are imprinted in our genes," she said. "They
    cannot be taken away."

    From its grinning skeletons and ghostly masks to the cries of "trick or
    treat!" Halloween has captivated generations of American children. This
    once pre-Christian Druidic ritual is now a truly American holiday.

    "It's the most powerful and most enjoyable holiday for children - they
    talk about Halloween all year around," said Belann Giarretto Lux,
    director of the Pacific Primary School in San Francisco.

    Just how pagan folklore became a much-beloved tradition is no mystery.

    "It's hard to give up a good party," said Daniel Melia, UC-Berkeley
    professor of rhetoric and Celtic languages.

    According to Melia and other scholars, the name Halloween - from All
    Hallows E'en, which means the evening before All Hallows or All Saints'
    Day on Nov. 1 - is Christian.

    But the day itself is of pre-Christian Druidic origin. Halloween, they
    said, can be traced to the Celtic festival of Samhain, which heralded
    the Celtic New Year.

    The Celts lived more than 2,000 years ago in what is now Great Britain,
    Ireland and northern France. Samhain, presided over by Druid priests,
    marked the start of winter's cold and darkness and naturally became
    associated with death.

    It's a time of year marked by cultures the world over. In Mexico and
    other Latin American countries, All Souls Day, Nov. 2, is also Dia de
    los Muertos, or Day of the Dead.

    For the Celts, the eve of Samhain - the night of Oct. 31 - was when
    spirits roamed the Earth.

    "In pre-Christian times, the belief was there was this world and then
    there was this other world, peopled by those with supernatural powers,"
    said Melia. "New Year's . . . was a point at which people could slip
    through" the seam between the two worlds.

    Some accounts call this evening "Mischief Night," when ghosts and
    fairies roamed the roads to curdle milk and ride people's horses to
    exhaustion. By the time of the Christianized Middle Ages, All Hallows
    E'en became known as a time favored by sorcerers and witches.

    The early supernatural beings were not "unambiguously bad," Melia said.
    "They've just been debased in the popular culture where you have
    ghosts, goblins and dead people returning."

    The Celts engaged in other autumnal rites: building a huge bonfire to
    relight the fires of the villages, wearing costumes made of animal
    skins and heads, and fortunetelling.

    Samhain merged with Roman festivals after the Celts were conquered in
    A.D. 43. Later, in the eighth century, in an attempt to Christianize
    the Celts, the pope moved All Hallows, or All Saints' Day, from May 13
    to Nov. 1. Also, he named Nov. 2 as All Souls' Day to honor the dead.

    Still, the pagan folklore persisted, coming to America with Irish
    immigrants in the 1840s.

    "Trick or treat," which may have come from masked Celts who "fed"
    wandering ghosts at home before leading them out of town - dominates
    the holiday. And apples and nuts, used in fortunetelling of old, remain
    associated with the holiday.

    Jack-o-lanterns are modern versions of the turnips and rutabagas that
    Irish children used to carve. That practice stems from an old tale, in
    which a stingy man named Jack was barred from heaven and hell and
    condemned to wander with his carved turnip, lit by a live coal tossed
    to him by the devil.

    All of which, Melia said, makes Halloween "kind of fun. And it
    certainly isn't what those people in Los Altos say - like, could this
    be Satan? Satan's a Christian notion. This is a pre-Christian
    celebration."

    When UC-Berkeley English Professor David Lloyd grew up in Ireland, he
    did pretty much the same thing that his two children, Sam, 8, and
    Talia, 5, will do this Halloween in their Berkeley neighborhood.

    "We went door to door, collecting candies and nuts," said Lloyd. "But
    it was much less commercial."

    Lloyd said Halloween has aspects of a Nov. 5 English holiday, Guy
    Fawkes Day. Fawkes was caught trying to blow up King James in
    Parliament in the 1605 Gunpowder Plot. To mark the day, straw effigies
    of "Guy" were burned and bonfires lit, a ritual kept by New Englanders
    until it merged with Halloween.

    "What you have is this layer upon layer of people taking over older
    festivals and giving it new meaning," Lloyd said.

    Not all appreciate the holiday. The Costa Mesa-based Citizens for
    Excellence in Education - part of the National Association of Christian
    Educators - strongly opposes Halloween, which it calls "an occultic
    holiday."

    "For many, Halloween seems like a harmless holiday full of
    prank-pulling and fun," says a statement by the organization. "However,
    when the roots of this holiday are traced, nothing but deadly evil is
    unearthed."

    Budapest says that reflects fears about death.

    "It's just the other side of life," she said. "That's what Halloween is
    . . . the veil between the dead and the living."

    On Friday, Budapest will bring in the pagan New Year by helping lead
    the 12th annual Spiral Dance and Ritual at San Francisco's Women's
    Building.

    "I'm going to light candles for the roaming dead and put milk and honey
    in my window for them," she said.

    Plenty of adults love the holiday.

    "People like to assume other identities and disguises," said
    UC-Berkeley folklorist Alan Dundes.

    "They also like to have access to other people's houses, something that
    doesn't ordinarily happen. So there's a bit of that."

    The horror factor is also at work.

    "People like to be scared," Dundes said.

    Melia noted the adoption of Halloween by the gay community.

    "They have this sense of otherness, that "we are marginalized by
    society and have to be hidden,' " he said. "Here's an occasion where
    they can celebrate differences without the impending threat of being
    ostracized. It's been appropriated for this particular need."

    But Halloween is still for kids.

    "It's a wonderfully unreligious holiday, in which kids just go out and
    indulge in their fantasies," said Lloyd.

    "For once each year, they're allowed to wander around the neighborhood.
    It's actually an interesting reclaiming of one's neighborhood."

    Halloween also helps them deal with fears.

    "Children don't just love Halloween because of the candy," said Lux, of
    Pacific Primary School. "It's so meaningful for them because they can
    talk about scary things, death and skeletons and ghosts."

    That doesn't mean unsupervised celebration. Despite the uproar over the
    Los Altos school ban, some Bay Area preschools have banned Halloween
    parades for years.

    Lux's school, whose students are 2-1/4 to 6 years old, won't allow
    costumes but lets children sing songs or visit pumpkin patches.

    "Older kids can handle it well but for the younger ones, it can really
    be quite frightening," she said. "Parents often can't wait to introduce
    their children to Halloween. Then they're quite shocked when their
    children are frightened. They forget that young children need things
    very simple."

    Some set conditions.

    "We ask that costumes not be anything that reflect the media - they
    can't be cartoon characters or Batman," said Diane David, a
    kindergarten teacher at San Francisco Waldorf School, whose curriculum
    often focuses on myths and folk tales.

    "They're often kings, queens or knights or animals," said David. "We
    also ask that costumes be "gathered' and not bought."

    The object is to avoid "this whole hoopla," said Sarah Zimmerman,
    founder of Fountainhead Montessori schools in Contra Costa and Alameda
    counties.

    "If we can let the children celebrate holidays without us spoon-feeding
    them about what has to happen, we will find treasures out there," she
    said.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    �Sun, Oct. 22, 1995 San Francisco Examiner

>    To Budapest, a Bay Area witch and avowed pagan, Halloween - falling at
>    the midpoint between the autumnal equinox and the winter solstice - is
>    a natural occurrence.

They're about a week early.

    re: .109
    
    I'm sorry but I've got to agree with Joe on this one {thud}.
    It's his house, his candy.  The kids have got to know this is
    a tradition by now.  If they don't want to sing Christmas carols,
    (or secular winter songs, or whatever) they don't have to go to
    his house.  Personally, I think it's a riot.  I would've loved
    it when I was a kid.
    
    It's a shame we have become so sensitive.  I wish we had a 
    more broad-based understanding of other religions besides
    Christianity, because I think differing non-secular traditions
    lend depth and additional meaning to religious holidays, as 
    well as increase understanding and tolerance.  A kid singing
    a few Christmas carols won't turn him into a Christian.  A kid
    who sees a loving homosexual couple won't in turn become a 
    homosexual later in life unless he chooses that.  We live in
    fear of what we do not understand instead of celebrating the
    differences that make each of unique in the eyes of God, Allah,
    Yahweh, The Goddess, Buddha, each other, etc.
    
    Mary-Michael
    

    Sheesh, yer side WON the freakin religious war /john.  Why harry the
    losers?  What's the gain??
    

    
    re: .111
    
    Do you understand the concept and/or the words...
    
    "Trick or Treat"!!   ????
    
     Come back when you get a clue or read up on it some more...
    
    
     Topes?
    
     Joe nailed you good... Don't be a sore loser... 
    

    
    re: .60
    
    So meg.... you gonna answer .61??
    

                 I'll take a wild guess...  Howzabout Heifetz?
    

    
    	Latish people probably have better things to do than go around
    	in costumes and beg for candy, such as updating terminology in
    	law/medical journals, so I doubt they even have a translation
    	for "trick or treat".
    

    
    
    Funny... you don't look...
    

| <<< Note 567.119 by SOLVIT::KRAWIECKI "Been complimented by a toady lately?" >>>


| Do you understand the concept and/or the words...
| "Trick or Treat"!!   ????

	Manipulation of small kids does not make it right. Putting razor blades
into apples is such a neat trick, right? I guess manipulating kids physically
is bad, but mentally is ok in your book? Please let us know.



Glen

 Jeepers, we're really going crazy on this one, eh?

    	re .114
    
    	Curious, Glen, that the only thing which you were moved
    	to comment on was the only chain yank I wrote in these
    	replies.
    
    	It says something.  I'm not sure what, exactly, but it
    	says something.

    
    re: .126
    
    You wanna go ballistic? Fine!! But stick to the subject!!!
    
    You took one little word (manipulation) and ran with it...
    
    
    Free clue...
    
     When I was a kid, almost half the houses I went to expected some sort
    of "trick" for the "treat" they were giving... It didn't matter what it
    was, just that it was part of the night's festivities... I guess those
    nasty people back then manipulated me to go out *THREE* times on
    Halloween those days....!!
    

>I didn't make this up, I read something about a butchered bear's body that was
>found in Central Park, NYC that was initially blamed on "Satanists" but was
>later found to be voodoo-related from Carribean people, and the story discussed
>Christianity influenced voodoo a little.  I've heard of this before in other
>stories. 
    
    thanks for the clarification.  The name escapes me right now, but I
    understand Catholicism in the Carribeans have a voodoo-based hybrid.
    
>only of "a specific church".  In this case I mean the Western church that has
>since evolved into the Catholics and Protestants of today, that is most
>Christians in the US.
    
    The important point I was trying to make is that Protestants didn't
    really exist under Constantine.  If you go back a little more, neither
    did Catholics.  The first-century church model consisted of mostly
    Christian Jews (1,000,000 in Israel by 100 A.D.) and some Gentiles. 
    I'm not into church history enough to know when Catholicism started.
    
    Mike

>Who told you that Constantine had anything to do with All Saints Day?
>Like so many of your sources, it was wrong.
    
    Like I just said, I don't make church history my area of concern as you
    do.  In Constantine, I went back to the source of the compromise.  731
    or 837 A.D. doesn't improve the dilemma.
    
    Mike

    
    	Doesn't "trick" refer to an action waiting to happen to the home-
    	owner should [s]he not provide a treat?
    
    	Some of you make it sound like the kids have to perform a "trick"
    	[like singing Christmas?? carols] to get the treat.
    
    
    	So, what'd you do last night?
    	Oh, turned a few tricks and got a few Hershey bars.
    

and then there were all those milky ways and mars bars...
we'd fill up half a pillow case wid 'em...

    Brian, I wish you could've been with me last night.  Occaisionally some
    people involved with the occult end up in church looking for a way out. 
    Last night was one of those nights.  Coincidence?  Maybe.  I help in
    the prayer room sometimes where people go who accept the invitation to
    receive Christ as their personal Savior.  A married couple involved in 
    witchcraft (the Craft) was saved last night.  Their personal
    testimonies were very interesting to say the least and contradicts the
    skeptics in here.  They're in quite the spiritual battle now.
    
    Mike

    
    when they turn tricks, they do get treats, sort of.......
    
    oh, you meant on Halloween..... I will try and keep up.

    Notice the article said it was a "pre-Christian" holiday:
    
>    The Celts lived more than 2,000 years ago in what is now Great Britain,
>    Ireland and northern France. Samhain, presided over by Druid priests,
>    marked the start of winter's cold and darkness and naturally became
>    associated with death.
    
    ...and another phase of compromise from the dominant church at the
    time:
    
>    Samhain merged with Roman festivals after the Celts were conquered in
>    A.D. 43. Later, in the eighth century, in an attempt to Christianize
>    the Celts, the pope moved All Hallows, or All Saints' Day, from May 13
>    to Nov. 1. Also, he named Nov. 2 as All Souls' Day to honor the dead.
    
    Mike

    
    re: .132
    
    >Doesn't "trick" refer to an action waiting to happen to the home-
    >owner should [s]he not provide a treat?
    
    >Some of you make it sound like the kids have to perform a "trick"
    >[like singing Christmas?? carols] to get the treat.
    
     Led a sheltered life at an early age did you, Shawn???
    
    :)
    

    
>>     Led a sheltered life at an early age did you, Shawn???

	me too, apparently.  i thought shawn was right.

    
    	Apparently, things were easier when/where I went out.
    
    	We rung the bell, got candy, and continued on down the street.
    	None of this "sing for your supper" stuff.
    

    
    
    Well... I grew up in Joisy, so I guess I should be glad they didn't
    fire bullets at my feet to make me dance...  :)
    

    
    
    Mi Mi Mi, ahem, figuaro, figuaro, figuaroooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
    
    Ok, what's for supper?

    
    	For THAT performance??
    
    	Going to bed without supper would be a generous punishment,
    	compared to what you deserve.
    
    	8^)
    

    .140
    Well I also grew up in Joisy and I`ve been chased outta some pretty
    large pumkin patches with farms who had shot guns in hand. I didn`t
    have to sing carols but I had done some pretty strange things to get my
    treats.
    

    	Hey, I'm from Joisey too!   Maybe that helps explain things 
    	to Don and Glen.  :^)

    .144
    Naaaaaaa!

| <<< Note 567.128 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Wanna see my scar?" >>>

| Curious, Glen, that the only thing which you were moved to comment on was the 
| only chain yank I wrote in these replies.

	Are you saying that you don't make kids sing for bigger bars? (no pun
intended)

| It says something. I'm not sure what, exactly, but it says something.

	When you answer the question it will say something. If your answer is
that you were yankin chains, then what it would say is to never trust your
replies.


Glen

| <<< Note 567.129 by SOLVIT::KRAWIECKI "Been complimented by a toady lately?" >>>


| You took one little word (manipulation) and ran with it...

	That is hardly a little word.

| nasty people back then manipulated me to go out *THREE* times on Halloween 
| those days....!!

	It would explain a lot....

    re: .147
    
    >It would explain a lot....
    
    Just for you, clueless...
    
    We lived in very congested type city/neighborhood with many generous
    folk. It was nothing for us to fill up our bags within a short period
    of time, thereby giving us time to go home, dump the candy in our room
    and go out again into a different area. There was a specific/allotted
    time (ie from 5:00 P.M. to 8:00 P.M.) for trick-or-treating and it was
    nothing for us to make 3 or more trips like this...
    
     BTW... never found a razor blade in any of my candy/apples...
    

<---and you had a purpose with that, right?

    
    re: .149
    
    ><---and you had a purpose with that, right?
    
    Just for you clueless...
    
     Right... it was to get as much candy as possible. Being poor, we
    rarely had the occasion to buy/receive candy/treats of any kind. This
    allowed us to go overboard and enjoy it one time a year...
    
     Since most of the kids I grew up with were pretty much in the same
    boat, all of us did it and enjoyed it... 
    
    BTW.. the people giving out the candy (and manipulating us too) enjoyed
    it just as much...
    

 So you were deceiving the evil manipulators, eh Andy?

    
    	What kind of boat did you have?
    
    	And wouldn't the boat money have been better spent on something
    	necessary, if you were that poor?
    

 If you were so poor how'd you pay the dental bills that resulted from eating
 all of that candy?

    
    	Maybe they sold the boat.
    

    
    re: .151
    
    >So you were deceiving the evil manipulators, eh Andy?
    
    
    Oh sinful me, Jim!!!!!!!!!!
    

    
    re: .153
    
    >If you were so poor how'd you pay the dental bills that resulted from
    >eating all of that candy?
    
    I saved it for the day I needed it most... after eating some Doritos at
    someones house who shall remain nameless...
    

    
    re: .152
    
    >What kind of boat did you have?
    
    We were so poor, that it was a raft and not a boat!!!
    

    
    	We were so poor, we made out own catamaran out of 4 kids and a
    	bunch of vine.
    

    
    We were so poor that we couldn't afford the vine... My Dad made the
    kids hold all the wood together with our hands and feet!!!
    

    
    	Wood?  I never said anything about wood.  8^)
    

no use vhining over a bunch of vine.

    
    re: .160
    
    Touche'!!!
    

| <<< Note 567.150 by SOLVIT::KRAWIECKI "Been complimented by a toady lately?" >>>


	I mean, did you have a point that would tie into what was being talked
about? It was an ok thing for people who had money to manipulate kids so they
could get candy? 


Glen

    
    You be nice to me, Andy, or I'll buy Doritos from that same store
    again!
    
    
    

    My personal boogiemen as a pagan?
    
    Ignorant, intolerant people.

    
    
    Now... did I mention any names??? Did I???
    
     I would never stoop so low!!!
    
    :)
    

    
    re: .166
    
    >My personal boogiemen as a pagan?
    
    >Ignorant, intolerant people.
    
    
    Nice dance meg.... Please answer the question asked...
    

>    The important point I was trying to make is that Protestants didn't
>    really exist under Constantine.  If you go back a little more, neither
>    did Catholics.  The first-century church model consisted of mostly
>    Christian Jews (1,000,000 in Israel by 100 A.D.) and some Gentiles. 
>    I'm not into church history enough to know when Catholicism started.

Church fathers in the first century referred to the Catholic Church.  If
you study church history you will discover that the Catholic Church was the
original worldwide united church; all others are splinters broken off of it.
The first significant schism occurred in 451 (the Copts and Ethiopians);
the second in 1054 (The Eastern Orthodox).
    
>    Like I just said, I don't make church history my area of concern as you
>    do.  In Constantine, I went back to the source of the compromise.  731
>    or 837 A.D. doesn't improve the dilemma.

Of course, there was no "compromise" at all when the date for the Feast of
All Saints was set.  At most, there was an attempt to suppress a pagan
festival by celebrating a completely biblically based Christian festival
at about the same time.

/john

    I did answer the question.
    
    have you a problem with that?
    
    meg

    
    
     No you didn't.... but if you're gonna beat around the bush and then
    throw it back at me as if *I* have a problem with comprehension, then so
    be it...

    Most of the pagans I know have no "darkside" diety, unlike christians. 
    Being a nature-based religion, and knowing one's place in the world on
    a walk in beauty precludes that.  
    
    Since there is no evil in the cosmos, the only evil can come from people
    who do not walk in beauty, and don't know their place in the harmonies
    of life.  Therefore, the closest thing I have for a
    "boogeyman/woman/entity" are intolerant and ignorant humans.
    
    meg

    
    "Luke...if you only knew the power of the Dark Side."
    

    
    	"I see your Schwartz is as big as mine."
    

    
    
    Hey Di!!! Someone else has seen it!!!! :)
    
    
    Thanks meg... that's all I was asking for...
    

>Church fathers in the first century referred to the Catholic Church.  If
>you study church history you will discover that the Catholic Church was the
>original worldwide united church; all others are splinters broken off of it.
    
    John, what are your sources for this?  I find it hard to believe since
    the Catholic Church seems to have had an antisemitic attitude for far
    too long.  The first Christians, and its leader, were all Jews.
    
    Mike

>    Most of the pagans I know have no "darkside" diety, unlike christians. 
>    Being a nature-based religion, and knowing one's place in the world on
>    a walk in beauty precludes that.  
>    
>    Since there is no evil in the cosmos, the only evil can come from people
>    who do not walk in beauty, and don't know their place in the harmonies
>    of life.  Therefore, the closest thing I have for a
>    "boogeyman/woman/entity" are intolerant and ignorant humans.
    
    Meg, what are the differences between the "Horned God," "Samhain,"
    "Cerridwen," "Herne," and "Satan."
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    "Horned god"  The consort of the mother, typified by Pan, among other
    goat-foot forms. 
    
    Cerridwen -- We refer to her as the recycling goddess, whe who stirs
    the cauldron of life and death, represented often as half maid/half
    crone.  
    
    Samhain -- final harvest celebration before the lean times.  Also the
    time when the veil between worlds is quite thin.  This is not a scary
    thing to us.
    
    Satan, a demi-god of christian origin blamed by christians for much of
    the evil they perceive in the world.  Often portrayed as a goatfooted,
    horned god, which seems odd, as I didn't think christians were supposed
    to make graven images.  In Christian mythology, Satan was responsible
    for the deception of the first couple, and downfall of innocence.
    
    meg
    
    

    > In Christian mythology, Satan was responsible for the deception
    > of the first couple...
    
    Bill and Hillary?
    
    -b

>I didn't think christians were supposed to make graven images.

An image of Satan (i.e. _not_ God) is not a "graven image".

/john

    Aren't gravens a kind of bird?

    
    
    Only if you quote them...
    

    
    .183
    
    Yes, big black birds. Poe was very fond of them.

>    John, what are your sources for this?

Ignatius of Antioch, 110 A.D., Letter to the Smyrneans:

	Shun divisions, as the beginning of evils.  Do you all follow
	your bishop, as Jesus Christ followed the Father, and the
	presbytery as the Apostles; and to the deacons pay respect,
	as to God's commandment.  Let no man do aught of things
	pertaining to the Church apart from the bishop.  Let that
	be held a valid Eucharist which is under the bishop or one
	to whom he shall have committed it.

	Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be;
	even as where Jesus may be, there is the Catholic Church.
	
/john

    re: .115
    
    Melia is wrong.  Satan is not a purely Christian entity.  The OT,
    including the oldest book (Job, according to most Bible scholars), 
    mentions Satan.
    
    
    -steve

>    the evil they perceive in the world.  Often portrayed as a goatfooted,
>    horned god, which seems odd, as I didn't think christians were supposed
>    to make graven images.  In Christian mythology, Satan was responsible
    
    I didn't think Christians made these images.  Have any sources to back
    you up?  
    
    How about Herne?  What can you tell us about it?
    
    thanks,
    Mike
    
    

>Ignatius of Antioch, 110 A.D., Letter to the Smyrneans:
>
>	Shun divisions, as the beginning of evils.  Do you all follow
>	your bishop, as Jesus Christ followed the Father, and the
>	presbytery as the Apostles; and to the deacons pay respect,
>	as to God's commandment.  Let no man do aught of things
>	pertaining to the Church apart from the bishop.  Let that
>	be held a valid Eucharist which is under the bishop or one
>	to whom he shall have committed it.
>
>	Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be;
>	even as where Jesus may be, there is the Catholic Church.
	
    John, I have a couple questions before I verify this source.
    
    1. Has this letter been verified as authentic?
    2. Within context, could "Catholic" possibly mean "catholic" (i.e., the
       universal church consisting of the body of Christ - all believers)?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    Mike,
    
    read any good book on mythology, particularly Greek for further
    information on the goatfoot gods.  I personally wonder if the image
    wasn't claimed by early christians in order to discredit another
    religion's dieties.  
    
    Herne is not one of the representations of the dieties I follow, so I
    can't give you information there.  There are possibly other pagans
    within the file who could.  
    
    Ceridwen I know better, my middle daughter is named after her.  
    
    Steve,  I have never met a person who follows the jewish faith who is
    as hung up on Satan as so many christians seem to be.  Therefore I see
    this as more of a christian diety, or demi-diety if you prefer.  
    
    I have to work on Samhain this year, all night long (bleargh) which
    will cut down on my full observance this year.  However, I will see to
    it that the little goblins in the neighborhood get their just deserts,
    my kids get a chance to trick or treat, and they get the pomegranet and
    story of Persephony (sp I am tired) and Hades, as they have over the
    past years.  I will take time to remember my father, my grandmothers,
    and friends long and recently dead, and will do my level best to enjoy
    a holiday that normally shouldn't be celebrated so quietly in my
    tradition.
    
    Carrie is planning on dressing as Bonanza Jellybean, a fitting role
    model for young women who plan to be unconventional.  She has decided
    that going as a witch this year, is too stereotypical, although I have
    never discouraged it.  Atlehi is too young to quite figure this out,
    but I may send her out in an old clown outfit from when Carrie, and
    Lolita were her age and size.  We live in a neighborhood which does
    Hallowe'en in a big way, I will miss getting out to see what the
    neighbors have in store for the little beggars this year.  The
    non-religious parts of the holiday are favorites of mine as well.
    
    meg 

>    1. Has this letter been verified as authentic?

Yes.

>    2. Within context, could "Catholic" possibly mean "catholic" (i.e., the
>       universal church consisting of the body of Christ - all believers)?

At that time there was nothing but the early undivided Church.

Just one, holy, apostolic, and catholic Church.

/john

    Podden my harping on .118 but I don't recall that having been answered
    by Covertski (or equivalent Hi-Thumper-Quotient combatants)...?
    
    Dan$ignored&hating&it
    
    |-{:-)
    

                  <<< Note 567.146 by BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo" >>>

>	Are you saying that you don't make kids sing for bigger bars? 
    
    	There are two answers to that question.
    
    	First, we've established that I don't MAKE them sing.  But
    	I do ASK them.
    
    	Secondly, I told you that you fell for the only one chain 
    	yank, so the issue about singing is not a chain yank.

>	When you answer the question it will say something. If your answer is
>that you were yankin chains, then what it would say is to never trust your
>replies.
    
    	Or it would say that you need to get your chain recalibrated.
    	It seems that nobody else's was sensitive enough to fall for it.
    
    	It also seems that you didn't trust my replies before this
    	discussion ever started, so I don't see your point with the 
    	above...

    "Workin on the chain-yank, chain-yank, chain-yank,
     Workin on the chain-yank, all day long..."
    

    
      I have a catholic taste in notes...
    
      bb

| <<< Note 567.193 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Wanna see my scar?" >>>

| Or it would say that you need to get your chain recalibrated. It seems that 
| nobody else's was sensitive enough to fall for it.

	Gee....so many commented on it...but no one fell for it...uh huh. I
guess ya can't be trusted to tell the truth..... 

| It also seems that you didn't trust my replies before this discussion ever 
| started, so I don't see your point with the above...

	Just more proof that noting is a game to you, not something that can be
taken seriously. So when you rant and rave, it will always be in the backs of
many people's minds that you are playing a game.


Glen

    re: .190
    
>    Steve,  I have never met a person who follows the jewish faith who is
>    as hung up on Satan as so many christians seem to be.  Therefore I see
>    this as more of a christian diety, or demi-diety if you prefer.  
 
    Which is completely beside the point.  Do Jews believe he exists?  This
    is the point.  Satan isn't a Christian construct, as he appeares in
    litterature that well predates the birth of Jesus.
       
    
    
    -steve 

>in order to discredit another religion's dieties.

Who cares what they eat?

Oh, you meant "deities".  Never mind.  And NNTTM.

/john

    TRICK OR TREAT!

    
    Madmike, I give you a 4 out of a possible 10.

                  <<< Note 567.196 by BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo" >>>

>| nobody else's was sensitive enough to fall for it.
>
>	Gee....so many commented on it...but no one fell for it...uh huh. I
>guess ya can't be trusted to tell the truth..... 
    
    	Oh?  Who else besides you has commented on the chain yank
    	in .102?  Are you counting Andy and Jim making fun of it?  

>	Just more proof that noting is a game to you, 
    	
    	So?  Why is it that you especially seem to have a problem 
    	with this when you are clearly losing the game?  (Careful, 
    	Glen.  Maybe this is a chain yank too!)

>    information on the goatfoot gods.  I personally wonder if the image
>    wasn't claimed by early christians in order to discredit another
>    religion's dieties.  
    
    This is where you continue to be wrong.  Even the San Francisco
    newspaper article posted said it's a "Pre-Christian" observance.  These
    gods were around and worshiped before Messiah walked on the earth.
    
>    Steve,  I have never met a person who follows the jewish faith who is
>    as hung up on Satan as so many christians seem to be.  Therefore I see
>    this as more of a christian diety, or demi-diety if you prefer.  
    
    He's portrayed in "type" every Yom Kippur in the form of Azazel.
    
>    neighbors have in store for the little beggars this year.  The
>    non-religious parts of the holiday are favorites of mine as well.
    
    Thanks for the confirmation, Meg.  Others in here, and opponents in
    Los Altos, CA., would have us believe that this isn't a religious holiday. 
    
    Mike

�>    1. Has this letter been verified as authentic?
�
�Yes.
    
    Ignatius was believed to have passed away as early as 107 A.D. and as
    late as 115 A.D. so this leaves the letter date of 110 A.D. in a
    controversial window.

�>    2. Within context, could "Catholic" possibly mean "catholic" (i.e., the
�>       universal church consisting of the body of Christ - all believers)?
�
�At that time there was nothing but the early undivided Church.
�
�Just one, holy, apostolic, and catholic Church.

    Just as I had suspected: catholic in Ignatius' context is an adjective
    and not a noun.  This contradicts your earlier claim.
    
    Mike

>                      <<< Note 567.197 by CAPNET::ROSCH >>>
>    
>    The early Christians were not all Jews.  Many were Greeks, Romans or
>    other middle-eastern peoples.  The very first 'council' of the Church
>    was held in Jerusalem in 49/50 AD to discuss the terms of admitting
>    non-Jews. Many of these non-Jews were called, for want of a better word 
>    historians used the term, 'God-fearers' (They believed like Jews but 
>    were not circumcized or did not follow the dietary laws of the Jews)
    
    Most of them were Jews.  The first-century Jewish historian, Nader,
    wrote that there were 1,000,000 Christian Jews in Israel by 100 A.D.
    
>    The point being is that as early as 49/50 AD the Church met in council
>    as a Catholic Church to decide a policy. St. Paul, St. Peter, James
>    etc. were all there. They met as a Catholic Church, made a Catholic
>    decision, wrote down policy (eg: sent a letter to Syria with their
>    decision - see Acts of the Apostles), sent a delegation...had a dinner
>    afterwards, played bocce, whatever...(1)
    
    catholic is an adjective in this case.  The book of Acts, which
    documents this council, doesn't contain this word as a noun.  The
    entire Bible doesn't contain this word at all.
    
>    (1) The decision was a compromise between St. Paul and St. Peter - the
>    new converts would not have to be circumsized but they had to keep
>    some of the Jewish dietary laws. Conversions went up a 100% - go
>    figure...

    You make it sound like Paul and Peter made the decision when James,
    Jesus' brother, was the head of the church in Jerusalem.  Check the
    book of Acts.
    
    Mike

    Mike,
    
    I haven't seen anyone deny the religious affiliation with Halloween. 
    There has been discussion regarding the details of who embraced it
    first, the origins, the "true" meaning but no denial that there is or
    was any spiritual significance of the "holiday".  From my observation
    and participation, I believe that many or most view Halloween as a 
    silly time of year when kids get dressed up and go trick or treating. 
    Most folks or at least most that are on the doorbell circuit, will go
    buy a few bags of candy which will then sit in the foyer until X-mas
    when the last will be eaten long after it has gone stale.  End of story.  
    
    Brian

    	This talk of St. Peter is timely.
    
    	My 7-year-old son will be  dressing up as his patron saint, 
    	St. Peter, for our church's h'ween party.
    
    	(He'll be a modern-day St. Peter, wearing a fake beard, a 
    	fishing vest, and hat with fishing lures stuck in it.  And 
    	he'll be carrying a rock in his candy bag.)

>    Just as I had suspected: catholic in Ignatius' context is an adjective
>    and not a noun.  This contradicts your earlier claim.

This contradicts nothing.  "Catholic" in "Catholic Church" is an adjective,
not a noun.  I suggest you go back to grammar school.

/john

| <<< Note 567.202 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Wanna see my scar?" >>>


| Why is it that you especially seem to have a problem with this when you are 
| clearly losing the game? (Careful, Glen.  Maybe this is a chain yank too!)

	What you believe to be true, usually isn't. Of course this could be a
chain yank.... not that I would ever want to do that.

    
    .207
    
    yabbut, will he have to sing Christmas carols, for his candy??? hhmmmm
    :-)

	Maybe Satanic ones......

     <<< Note 567.210 by ACISS1::BATTIS "Life is not a dress rehearsal" >>>

>    yabbut, will he have to sing Christmas carols, for his candy??? hhmmmm
>    :-)

    	He probably will do some singing (though the church party
    	organizers in the past haven't been spohisticated enough to 
    	consider using Christmas carols) but they don't usually
    	give out candy.  In the past they've given out kids' 
    	stationery and pencils, or kids' books about saints and 
    	other religious matters, or small toys and trinkets.  But
    	don't worry, my kids will get their share of candy during
    	their pre-party halloweening.

>>    	don't worry, my kids will get their share of candy during
>>    	their pre-party halloweening.

	<wiping brow>  phew.

>This contradicts nothing.  "Catholic" in "Catholic Church" is an adjective,
>not a noun.  I suggest you go back to grammar school.
    
    I'd suggest you don't unnecessarily capitalize your adjectives.

>	Maybe Satanic ones......
    
    Glen, what's a "Satanic" Christmas carol?
    

    
      Please allow me to introduce myself,
      I'm a man of wealth and taste...
    
      

    
    > Glen, what's a "Satanic" Christmas carol?
    
    How about "The Twelve Days of Christmas"?  It sure makes my
    head spin around in circles and vomit pea soup...
    
    -b

| <<< Note 567.215 by OUTSRC::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>


| Glen, what's a "Satanic" Christmas carol?

	To some, anything that doesn't reflect Christ. 


Glen

    re .203
    
    claimed, not invented.
    
    The goatfoot gods have been around time immemorial, but they aren't the
    gatekeepers of the underworld.
    
    Hell yes it is a religious observance to me, as is the winter solstice. 
    However, you don't see me trying to stamp out xmas programs in schools. 
    I just wish they would be more inclusive of other faiths who have
    celebrations at this time as well.  
    
    Se also have a yule tree and stockings on the 25th of december, just
    like all the dozens of other people who celebrate x-mas, rather than
    christmas.
    
    meg

    
      I thought Gerund went to Moldavia...
    
      bb

    Well, they could use you down at the mission to spread some Yuletide
    cheer with a trick like that!

excuse me, this pea soup has a little wang to it...

goats feet can be cool

    
    I've heard goat's head soup is delicious

    Goat "oysters" are quite tasty, breaded and sauteed in butter.
    
    meg

    >	To some, anything that doesn't reflect Christ. 
    
    I asked *you*, Glen.

    > Goat "oysters" are quite tasty, breaded and sauteed in butter.
    
    ... but I'd be suspicious of ones served on the half-shell.

    -b

>    Hell yes it is a religious observance to me, as is the winter solstice. 
>    However, you don't see me trying to stamp out xmas programs in schools. 
>    I just wish they would be more inclusive of other faiths who have
>    celebrations at this time as well.  
    
    Well maybe they should let others celebrate other holidays as they wish
    instead of only giving halloween carte blanche!
    
    Makes me wonder why, in these days of PCness, halloween is the only
    holiday that goes virtually unscathed.  Must be a true testimony to its
    corrupt roots.
    
    Mike

| <<< Note 567.229 by OUTSRC::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>

| To some, anything that doesn't reflect Christ.

| I asked *you*, Glen.


	Mike, the talk was around Joe's kids and Christians. So I gave a
Christians perspective that would fit some people that make up that group.

	Unless Ronnie James Dio has started singing his own Christmas songs, I
don't believe I have heard any yet.

	Are you one who thinks a Christmas song is satanic if the Christmas
they sing about is not about Christ?


Glen

                  <<< Note 567.232 by BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo" >>>

>	Mike, the talk was around Joe's kids and Christians. 
    
    	Hmmm.  I thought the talk was around you getting your chain yanked
    	but good, and then you trying to untangle yourself from your own
    	twistings...
    
    	But back to your answer to Mike, he asked you a direct question.
    	Your response was the equivalent of hopping around with your
    	foot stuck in your underwear.

 .234  <Christmas carols in the background>

>	Mike, the talk was around Joe's kids and Christians. So I gave a
>Christians perspective that would fit some people that make up that group.
    
    "Satanic" Christimas carols have nothing to do with Joe.
    
>	Unless Ronnie James Dio has started singing his own Christmas songs, I
>don't believe I have heard any yet.
    
    this doesn't apply either.

>	Are you one who thinks a Christmas song is satanic if the Christmas
>they sing about is not about Christ?

    No.  Now answer the question.
    
    Mike

| <<< Note 567.233 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Wanna see my scar?" >>>

| >	Mike, the talk was around Joe's kids and Christians.

| Hmmm. I thought the talk was around you getting your chain yanked 

	.211 addressed .210, which addressed .207. Please keep up.

| But back to your answer to Mike, he asked you a direct question.

	I gave him a direct answer.

| Your response was the equivalent of hopping around with your foot stuck in 
| your underwear.

	The above is a lie. I would have to wear underwear for that to happen. 

| <<< Note 567.237 by OUTSRC::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>

| >	Mike, the talk was around Joe's kids and Christians. So I gave a
| >Christians perspective that would fit some people that make up that group.

| "Satanic" Christimas carols have nothing to do with Joe.

	Go read .211, .210, .207. It has to do with Joe. Please don't tell me
what I meant, cuz ya don't have a clue.

| >	Are you one who thinks a Christmas song is satanic if the Christmas
| >they sing about is not about Christ?

| No.  Now answer the question.

	Unless Ronnie James Dio has started singing his own Christmas songs, I
don't believe I have heard any yet.

    >	Unless Ronnie James Dio has started singing his own Christmas songs, I
>don't believe I have heard any yet.

    Nice spin you have there.  You still haven't answered the question
    about a subject that *you* brought up.  You can continue to ignore it,
    but you are downright embarrassing yourself.

    Mike

	How can my saying that I haven't heard any equate to what you said? U
makin no sense.

    	Put some oil on that squeaky wheel.

    Equate?  Your taking a lot of latitude with that one, bud.

    RE: the Frontline piece....
    
    Well, what was it about?  Details! Details!

>RE: the Frontline piece....

It was about the power of experts.  It was about psychologists
and psychiatrists who have been treating patients with the 
utmost negligence and callousness for 15 or so years.

Here's the scam.  You take a depressed, confused person and
convince her that she suffers from multiple personality disorder.
Then you convince her that she is a member of a satanic cult
and that she needs daily treatment in an institution somewhere.

After years of pumping the patient with drugs, hypnotizing her
so that you can get her to say what you want her to say, you then
release her after the "treatment" fails.

Then you collect $2.5 million from the insurance companies.

Disgusting.

    
    <--------------
    
    Cooooool....what a neat scam!  Wish I thought of it....
    
    
    
                           G A K ! ! !  ! !
       :-P
    

         In San Francisco, Big Halloween Bash Is Becoming a Drag
       -----------------------------------------------------------
    (City Officials and Some Gays Say Annual Party Is Too Wild; Radical
  Faeries Are Fleeing; By Bill Richards, a staff reporter for the WSJ)

    San Francisco - Halloween is starting to spook this city.

    Traditionally, San Franciscans have celebrated Halloween in their own
  uninhibited fashion - turning it into an enthusiastic street party in the
  Castro district, the city's gay epicenter.  Dozens of bars will offer
  prizes tomorrow night for the best drag costumes.  Over the weekend,
  thousands of costumed revelers turned out for the Hookers Ball, hosted by
  prostitutes' rights advocate Margo St. James, and the Exotic Erotic Ball,
  which features a lineup of female-impersonation acts.  Last week, the
  San Francisco Examiner even offered men helpful tips on how to make up
  and dress like women.

    "At this time of year," says Michael Bailey, a member of the Sisters of
  Perpetual Indulgence, a campy pseudo-religious group that is active in
  several local Halloween events, "it's get out your sequins and sew, sew,
  sew."

    But this year, the Sisters and others will abstain from attending the
  Castro Street party.  They are worried that San Francisco's Halloween
  bash has gotten out of hand, drawing too many outsiders who come to ogle,
  and sometimes assault, costumed gays.  Nervous city officials are playing
  down the whole holiday.

    "The party's over," says Jeoffrey Douglas, owner of the Faerie Queene,
  a Castro Street chocolate shop.  Mr. Douglas plans to board up the windows
  of his store on Halloween night and has hired his own security guard to
  watch the place.  "That tells you what I'm expecting this year."

    Concerned about the potential for violence, city officials have assigned
  some 300 police to this year's event, as well as 160 private guards who
  normally patrol rock concerts.  To defray costs, revelers will be charged,
  for the first time, $2 to enter the eight-block party area.  They also
  will be frisked for weapons.

    "Will it get out of control ?" asks San Francisco police Captain Joaquin
  Santos.  "I hope not.  Maybe everyone will just go home early."

    Fat chance.  Last year, city officials and organizers estimate as many
  as a half-million Halloween celebrants jammed the cordoned-off Castro
  district.  Male go-go dancers pranced atop huge speakers set out in the
  street and revelers cheered rock groups such as the Screaming Divas and
  the Acid Housewives.

    Then, things turned ugly.  Security volunteers were so intimidated by the
  huge crowd that they fled and the organizers had to call on the Lesbian
  Avengers, a local women's group, to protect the stage.  Members of the
  Gay Men's Chorus abandoned the buckets they were using to collect donations
  after revelers began snatching fistfuls of cash.  "It was wall-to-wall
  people," says Captain Santos, whose officers ended up donning riot gear
  and dodging bottles at 3 a.m. while trying to chase away hard-core partiers.
  Police detained nearly 100 people and confiscated several loaded guns.

    "That wasn't a Halloween celebration," says Mr. Bailey, one of the event's
  organizers, whose "nom de nun" is Sister Olive O'Sudden.  "We were running a
  controlled riot," he says.

    "It's turned into a mess," says Robert Ross, publisher of the Bay Area
  Reporter, a gay weekly.  "You've got fundamentalist ministers preaching
  hate instead of love and kids coming down here to the Castro on Halloween
  to bash the fags."

    Men in San Francisco have openly celebrated Halloween in drag since at
  least the 1960s.  "People would dress up and travel in buses and limousines
  from bar to bar," Mr. Ross recalls.  Bars set up stages and klieg lights
  and ran cash competitions for the best costumes, he says.

    Eventually, the festivities spilled into the streets and followed the gay
  community to the city's Castro district.  The event has grown each year
  since, drawing gays and gawkers from around the country.

    "This is an adult holiday, not a Halloween for children," says Robert
  Oakes, the city's liaison with the gay community.  "There are a lot of
  adults dressed in costumes and they're allowed to drink in the street.
  With such a huge crowd, the police go for containment instead of
  prohibition."

    The whole event has gotten so big and tense that the Radical Faeries,
  a San Francisco based "radical, spiritual, pagan" organization, says this
  year its membership are leaving the city altogether to hold their annual
  Halloween conclave.  As many as 100 Faeries will celebrate at a hideaway
  in the state of Washington, says Mr. Douglas, who is a member of the group.
  "Everyone just wants to get away from here," he says.

    The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, which Mr. Douglas describes as
  "kind of a gay Lions' Club in habits," also will miss the Castro party,
  even though the group has sponsored it for the past five years.  This
  year, city officials asked the Sisters to congregate elsewhere in hopes of
  drawing away some of the crowd from the Castro.

    Mr. Bailey expects several thousand people to show up tomorrow night at
  the Pleasure Dome, a gay nightclub the Sisters have rented out in the
  south-of-market district, several miles from the Castro.  "It will be fun,"
  he says, "but not as much fun as it used to be."

    Not everyone is down on Halloween, however.  At Piedmont, one of the city's
  largest costume shops, owner Uti Kaupp says she has had to add extra staff
  to keep up with the demand for drag gear for Halloween.  One man, Ms. Kaupp
  says, spent $1600 on a custom-made outfit that included a rainbow-colored
  bustier with a matching feather boa and bra.

    "This isn't a city where people buy $1.98 skeleton suits at Kmart,"
  Ms. Kaupp says.  "Halloween is huge here.  After this, Christmas is
  anticlimactic."

    There will be an earthquake in San Francisco for sure now....

    
    Good Samhain to you all!
    
    meg

Today starts my nineteenth year with DIGITAL.

    re: .254
    
    Let's see...the last 19 years have been one giant Halloween trick on
    the rest of us, right? :-)
    
    Bob

    Wish I were attending the Halloween Parade in NYC today...

    19 years ago, I was getting ready to go trick or treating.

	LJ has 19 years here??? Maybe he isn't as lucky as we thought.....
no... that can't be.... cuz he was here for all the real good years..... my God
man.... you are lucky!

>Yes, big black birds. Poe was very fond of them.

Y'know, speaking of Poe, I happened to catch a bit of his biography last night
on A&E.

Did you know that his foster-father sent him to the University of Virginia to
get rid of him, and at that time (the U. of V. being only 2 years old) it was
a wild place. Police were called there constantly, and a professor was murdered
there.

Ah, the good ol' days.

     Halloween attractions sick or a treat?

     By Brian MacQuarrie, Globe Staff , 10/30

     FOXBOROUGH - A maid stabbed in the stomach with a carving knife. An
     infant with an ax embedded in her forehead. A guest hacked to death in
     the shower. And a medical examiner who conducts an autopsy with a power
     tool. These are among the grisly vignettes being played out at the
     Foxborough Jaycees' Haunted Mansion, where about 10,000 paying visitors
     will exit the former state hospital this Halloween season only to be
     greeted by chainsaw-wielding volunteers who chase them toward their
     cars.

     The exhilarated shrieks and screams of children and teen-agers indicate
     that, for most, a full-body fright is thrilling rather than terrifying.
     And the knowledge that this is fantasy, organizers of Halloween
     attractions say, makes fair game of even simulated murder.

     But psychologists and educators question whether such scenes leave
     young children with fears that linger long after a short walk through a
     ``haunted house.'' And they ask whether parents are taking enough
     responsibility to shield vulnerable children from displays of cruelty
     and violence.

     ``It's fun to be scared, to know it's make-believe,'' says Dr. Carolyn
     Newberger, a child psychologist at Children's Hospital. ``But what
     seems to be happening is that we have lost our sense of the
     make-believe, and somehow feel that things have to be realistic and
     have to be scarier and scarier.

     ``In effect,'' she says, ``many haunted houses are like a
     virtual-reality media event. We have to assume that it has the
     potential to be hurtful.''

     Newberger and other psychologists say that Halloween attractions should
     be rated, like movies, and that murder and butchering should be
     off-limits.

     Dr. Alvin Poussaint, a psychiatrist at the Judge Baker Children's
     Center in Boston, said that haunted houses ``typically don't say
     anything'' about age limits ``and leave it up to the parents, and
     parents may not know any better. I think that people putting on
     displays need to take responsibility.''

     However, organizers of Halloween venues are adamant that this
     responsibility lies with the people who know their children best.

     Dave Brown, publicity chairman for Foxborough's Haunted Mansion, said
     the event is recommended for children over 10, but concedes that the
     suggestion ``is disregarded by many parents.''

     ``It's up to the parents to decide what's appropriate,'' Brown said.
     ``I had a group last week, and I don't think any of the kids were over
     7. My observation over the years has been that the kids react according
     to how their parents react.''

     ``It's no worse than anything they'd see on TV,'' said George Munchbach
     of Norwood, who accompanied two other adults and seven children through
     the Haunted Mansion last week.

     ``It's a rush; it's adrenaline,'' said Kelly Linfield, 17, who ran
     screaming from the mansion with her North Attleborough friends.

     At the Haunted Hayrides in Carver, this year's 20,000 patrons are being
     told at the ticket booth that ``we have 5-year-olds who come off
     laughing, and 16-year-olds who come off crying,'' said general manager
     Dave Connor.

     ``As long as parents realize that up front,'' Connor said, ``it's up to
     their own discretion'' about whether to allow children on a 40-minute
     hayride that includes, among other characters, the mutilated survivor
     of a car wreck.

     Children today are not satisfied with moaning ghosts and witches, says
     Sue Smith, the director of Haunted Happenings, a 19-day smorgasbord of
     Halloween events in Salem. ``They really do want to be scared,'' she
     said.

     But parents might not realize how frightening a haunted house can be,
     the psychologists say, and some may push their children to go through
     as a way of overcoming fear.

     ``Parents should not drag their children through as if they're being
     taught a lesson,'' Poussaint said. ``They shouldn't berate them or call
     them a scaredy-cat. If they do, they shouldn't be surprised by some
     after-effects.''

     Those effects for children under 5, Poussaint said, might include
     ``having trouble sleeping, or having trouble being left alone. They may
     imagine there are monsters and things under their beds. They may need
     constant reassurance.''

     Poussaint says that children older than 5 ``can distinguish this is
     make-believe,'' and that ``by 8 to 12, they know this is just a
     gimmick.''

     But despite the ability of older children to separate fantasy from
     reality, Poussaint questions why a knifing should be shown.

     ``My inclination is, `Why do that?''' Poussaint says. ``It may prompt
     fears of being attacked on the street, and it may serve as a model for
     someone to scare another kid with a knife.''

     Newberger, of Children's Hospital, says, ``I would not send a child
     alone under the age of 9 or 10'' into a graphic Halloween attraction.
     ``I would not send any child alone who wants someone with them, and I
     would not send any child under the age of 7 or 8 without an adult.''

     As an option, many horror venues offer less-frightening matinees for
     younger children. And at Foxborough, escape routes are provided along
     pitch-black corridors for any youngsters who wish to leave.

     Newberger advises parents to check the display first. But, as
     Framingham principal Carolyn Burke says, parents sometimes make
     surprisingly gruesome suggestions. As an example, she cites the
     planning for the Hemenway Elementary School's annual haunted house.

     ``You can't stop people's desire to get a good scare and, frankly, it's
     a fun evening,'' Burke says. ``But there's always someone who wants to
     take it that one other step.''

     This story ran on page 17 of the Boston Globe on 10/30.

    i prefer the pentecostal one out in colorado.
    

    <--- The only problem with that one is you have to do some carpet time.

    Today's witches slowly coming out of the broom closet

    
    (c) 1995 Copyright Nando.net
    (c) 1995 Associated Press

    TROY, N.Y. (Oct 31, 1995 - 11:48 EST) -- With their popular Halloween
    image of snaggletoothed hags in pointy black hats cackling over
    bubbling cauldrons, it's no wonder most of today's witches are staying
    in the broom closet.

    Yet some have come out on one of their most sacred of days to say that
    the witches of the '90s aren't so scary, with pagan beliefs turned into
    full-blown religions, complete with services and holidays.

    "Even if this is the only time of year that anyone pays attention, it's
    a chance to tell people there's nothing to fear from us," said Allan
    Patnode, who considers himself a witch (He does not use the term
    warlock).

    Witch Dee Coyle Anderson added, "Witches do have other holidays, you
    know. People tend to think we worship just once a year."

    These witches, among 50 members of the Hudson Valley Pagan Network, are
    contemporary followers of an ancient pagan religion based on Celtic
    mythology.

    In its most basic form, witchcraft, or Wicca, is a form of nature
    worship. The pagan calender in most traditions follows the seasons,
    with the solstices and equinoxes as holy days.

    The core of the Wiccan worship is belief in a deity with male and
    female attributes whose psychic energy can be tapped. Most witches say
    they do not use the energy for destructive purposes.

    But from their traditions come legends of satanic worship -- and a bad
    image.

    "People who use the word 'witch' in connection with living sacrifices
    or satanism or any of that nonsense -- that's not who we are," said
    group member Christine D'Allaird.

    There are about 2 million Americans who adhere to some form of
    paganism, said Leo Martello, director of the New York City-based
    Witches' Anti-Discrimination Lobby, an organization that fights for the
    rights of pagans to gather in public places and receive holiday
    benefits for such days as Halloween.

    Because of fear of losing jobs and negative perceptions from friends
    and family, many pagans remain solitary, Martello said. But he said
    pagans may just be living next door, coming "from all walks of life --
    politicians, waitresses, computer programmers, you name it."

    "But they don't come out because there's still too much to lose," he
    said.

    Believers say today's paganism evolved from the counterculture movement
    of the 1960s. Since then, the Age of Aquarius has become the New Age --
    the umbrella term for the thousands of separate pagan traditions that
    have been building steadily over the past 30 years.

    But in the days around Halloween, the old images of witches always seem
    to bubble to the surface, even for modern-day believers.

    At a "Witches Ball" thrown by the Hudson Valley group on Saturday
    night, members showed up in outlandish Medieval costumes, including
    knights in full armor and wizards with pointy hats and black robes.
    There were even such traditional Halloween activities as bobbing for
    apples.

    On Sunday, the network held a secret religious ritual to mark
    Halloween. The group would not discuss details of its rituals.

    Patnode called Halloween a "crack in time" between the old year and the
    new that spills over into the next world and allows pagans to ask the
    spirits for advice.

    "This time of year has always been seen as a time of death. The growing
    year is ending, the leaves are falling," Patnode said. "Death and life
    occur in a balance. We feel it's healthy to acknowledge it, because it
    helps you to appreciate life more."
     

    .253
    
    Samhain to you.

Ephesians 5:11
    And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead
    even expose them. (NASB)

    
    .264 was a joke, Mike. "Same to you", get it ?

    
    no Barry, I got a rock

10	Guaranteed to get at least a little something in the sack

 9	If you get tired, wait 10 minutes and go at it again

 8	The uglier you look, the easier it is to get some

 7	You don't have to compliment the person who gave you candy

 6	It's OK when the person you're with fantasizes you're someone
	else, because you ARE someone else

 5	40 years from now, you'll still enjoy candy

 4	If you don't get what you want, you can always go next door

 3	Doesn't matter if kids hear you moaning and groaning

 2	Less guilt the next morning

AND...

 1	You can "do" the whole neighborhood!	

    
    Strange night last night....
    
    Here we were, all set for the same massive tide of kids like last year
    (75+) and only 6 showed up all night...
    
    I wonder who works out their logistics...
    

	<-- they all showed up at our house.
	last year ~10, this year ~100!
	
	and *each* one had to sing jingle bells to get candy!  ;-)
	

    
      Well, I supplemented the dish of Mars bars with butterfingers and
     Reese's peanut butter cups at the last minute.  I was right that
     there was a large turnout this year, and almost everything went.
    
      But the Mars bars were easily the fastest to go.
    
      bb

| <<< Note 567.271 by MKOTS3::JOLLIMORE "I'm drowning in you" >>>


| and *each* one had to sing jingle bells to get candy!  ;-)


	You related to Joe Oppelt???? :-)

                                                   ,,,,
    Only about 4 kids showed up at my place....  :'-(
    
    Anyone want 7 bazillion lbs of candy... :-<
    

	Dan.... please don't eat the candy yourself...... or your hooverisms
will increase by 100 fold...... :-)

    Our doorbell was rung once.  This, of course, despite our having left
    the light off to indicate that we were not open with handouts.  I
    looked out the window after waiting a few moments and saw a group of
    largish teenagers, in mufti, trooping down the walk to their car. 
    Which is why we don't offer handouts - our neighborhood is secluded,
    and small children don't come through it either with or without
    supervision.  I don't particularly care for the motorized division.

    .276
    Whats a "mufti"?

    A nice evening frock, suitable for cocktail parties, stakeouts or gang
    warfare.  

I badly underestimated the number of children in my neighborhood. The
first kid was at my house at 5:45 and by 6:30 I had given out 70 chocolate 
bars and had to turn out the light.  Took the dogs out at 7:30 and there 
were still LOTS of trick or treaters - think I could have easily had 2-3 
times more kids.  Where have they all been hiding?

 I was in the grocery store last night and came upon a couple of what appeared
 to be teenaged young women purchasing a large flat (2.5 doz?) of eggs..they
 had sinister expressions on their faces.  I suspect they were not intending
 to make omelets with those eggs.




 Jim

    Had a bunch o' squirts too.  Most were polite, a few were downright
    rude, pushy and greedy.  The greedy ones got treated to an opportunity
    to return some of the loot.  The meeker and more mannerly ones were
    treated to an opportunity to select a second.  I allowed everyone to
    pick their own.  
    
    The amazing thing was that folks were walking on the wrong side of the
    road.  My street is quiet but the adjoining street is busy.  Too many
    adults IMO were not taking the proper precautions including themselves
    darting across the road.  Very dangerous behavior on a poorly lit,
    fairly busy street.  
    
    Brian

| <<< Note 567.270 by SOLVIT::KRAWIECKI "Been complimented by a toady lately?" >>>


| Here we were, all set for the same massive tide of kids like last year
| (75+) and only 6 showed up all night...

	Andy...maybe it had to do with what you passed out last year....;-)

    WE had an awesome time of praise and worship in church last night.

    
    Oy!
    

	I watched the Roseanne Halloween special, as usually it is pretty
funny. It was only mildly funny, and it got very very strange.

spoiler


	She had her baby, while running into Gerry Garcia. In fact, she named
the kid after him.....she was wasted on demerol (sp?) so that's why she ran
into him. 

	I will admit it was pretty funny having the woman who replaced Becky
for a couple of seasons come back with kids trick or treating. Totally
original.

	And one of the best parts at the end was when someone from the audience
asked Roseanne just what was that show supposed to be about! It turned out to
be one of the writers, who she quickly fired.... :-)

	Oh that wacky Roseanne!


Glen

re .-3: We'll be doing that tonight.  Mozart and Britten.
And all the good old hymns:

For all the saints, who from their labors rest,
Who thee, by faith, before the world confessed,
Thy Name, O Jesus, be for ever blessed.  A-a-le-e-lu-ia, A-a-a-le-lu-ia!

Thou wast their rock, their fortress and their might:
Thou, Lord, their Captain in the well-fought fight;
Thou, in the darkness drear, the one true Light. A-a-le-e-lu-ia, A-a-a-le-lu-ia!

O may thy soldiers, faithful, true, and bold,
Fight as the saints who nobly fought of old,
And win, with them, the victor's crown of gold.  A-a-le-e-lu-ia, A-a-a-le-lu-ia!

O blest communion, fellowship divine!
We feebly struggle, they in glory shine;
Yet all are one in thee, for all are thine.  A-a-le-e-lu-ia, A-a-a-le-lu-ia!

And when the strife is fierce the warfare long,
Steals on the ear the distant triumph song,
And hearts are brave again and arms are strong.  A-a-le-e-lu-ia, A-a-a-le-lu-ia!

The golden evening brightens in the west;
Soon, soon to faithful warriors cometh rest;
Sweet is the calm of paradise the blest.  A-a-le-e-lu-ia, A-a-a-le-lu-ia!

But lo! there breaks a yet more glorious day;
The saints triumphant rise in bright array;
The King of glory passes on his way.  A-a-le-e-lu-ia, A-a-a-le-lu-ia!

From earth's wide bounds, from oceans farthest coast,
Through gates of pearl streams in the countless host,
Singing to Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,  A-a-le-e-lu-ia, A-a-a-le-lu-ia!

Words: William Walsham How (1823-1897)
Music: Sine Nomine, Ralph Vaughan Williams (1872-1958)

    
    	I stayed up until midnight and swung a dead cat over my head....
    
    

<----what colour(s) were the cat?

Perhaps my old-fart-level is rising, but it sure strikes me that there
is *nothing* beneficial, wholesome, or good about Haloween.

In general, nothing good happens to/for the kids, the basis for the
night seems to me to be rooted in witchery or devil-worship, older
(chronologically) children seem to take it as a license to abuse
property, and the whole night seems to be a rather dangerous waste of
time and money.

Has anyone ever proposed some alternative to the tired trick-or-treat
approach? It seems that there used to be an opportunity to collect for
UNICEF or something, but it seems it was canned because people weren't
really collecting for UNICEF but for themselves.

Pete

re .289:

>In general, nothing good happens to/for the kids,

They get treats, and more importantly they have a good time.

> the basis for the
>night seems to me to be rooted in witchery or devil-worship,

Never was connected to "devil worship".  Other than perhaps a few Satanists
who usurp the day for a holiday.  If they exist.

It was once a pagan holiday but the witches of that religion are not evil.
They were made out as evil by Christianity when it arrived.

> older
>(chronologically) children seem to take it as a license to abuse
>property,

true.

I felt that Halloween was losing favor among children but gaining with
adults.  Halloween costume parties seem to be gaining favor and look at the
success of places like Spooky World, and various "haunted houses".
I may be wrong about the losing popularity among children given the trick-or-
treat reports.

    
    Were I a 10-year-old, having been informed of the amount of time and
    energy adults expend analyzing the meaning and value of Hallowe'en,
    I would say:
    
    "Lighten up, daddy-o!"
     

 A 16 year old boy was shot and critically wounded yesterday in Roxbury, after
 having egged a number of cars.  Apparantly the driver of one of the cars 
 didn't care for the application of chicken embryos to his automobile.  They
 found about 9 dozen empty egg cartons in the vicinity.




 Jim

Yes, I know, maybe I should "Lighten up, daddy-o!". I'm just doing, I
guess, an Andy Rooney sort of thing. It seemed that we spend time and
money on this night, and for what? The treats don't do my children a
whit of good, and it seems maybe we could channel some of the energy
elsehwere.
     
I'll be quiet now 8^(

Pete

    
    	See, if eggs were illegal then that kid wouldn't have been shot.
    
    	Ban eggs!!
    

 But, if we didn't have chickens, we wouldn't have eggs!  Ban chickens!

Maybe we shold include toilet paper and shaving cream with the banned
substances.

Pete

    
    ...and Silly String!
    

    ...and fruit cakes at Christmas!

    	Added the Chipmunk Christmas album to my Halloween repertiore.
    
    	When some of the kids were stumped by my request to sing a
    	Christmas song, some of the parents chimed in with a few 
    	lines -- most commonly Jingle Bells.

    
    	Is that "fruitcakes" or "fruit cakes"?
    
    	Not that it matters either way, mind you, but why just at
    	Christmas?  8^)
    

    	Oh yeah.  And so far, no lawsuits from rabid anti-Christmas
    	parents.

 Give them time, Joe, give them time.




 Jim

    
    
    Especially those driving around in Broncos singing "Rudolph the Red
    Nose Reindeer"...
    

    	Actually, Rudolph came in 4th in popularity behind 1) Jingle
    	Bells, then 2) the Batman version of Jingle Bells, then 3)
    	Frosty the snowman.

    
    	Did anyone sing "Father Christmas" by The Kinks?
    
    	If they did, you know they're too old to be begging for candy.
    

    	No, but someone sang me the dradle song.

    Dreidl, or dreidel
    
    NNTTM.

       I would pay serious gelt to hear the Mitch Miller version of that
       one.

    We had an Arab family come through our neighbourhood, twelve. Moms,
    dads, aunts & uncles and a few kids. None of them had costumes, and all
    of them had bags. Yes, the adults. I think they could have used some
    gentle indoctrination.

       
       How do you know it was an Arab family?

    The women had their heads covered and they spoke with thick middle
    eastern accents. They were very pleasant and seemed to be having a good
    time.

    	Yeah, Dick.  It sounded like there was a misspelling in there
    	as he sang it...

    	:^)

    
      I fear the 'Box is too stressful through holidays.  If everybody
     squawks so much over this, how will we get through T'giving,
     Christmas/Chanukah, New Years' ?
    
      I've read that suicide rates go up on all holidays.  Reading through
     these notes suggests why !
    
      bb

       
       re .311:
       
       Oh, so could they have been from Iran?
       
       And do you know middle-eastern accents well enough to distinguish
       them from N. African accents -- these might have been the slaves!

    
    re: .311
    
    >The women had their heads covered and they spoke with thick middle
    >eastern accents.
    
     So? How do you know these weren't their costumes for the night???
    

    
    	Topaz, if he had said "foreigners" you would have jumped on him
    	for being too generic.
    

       Everyone in Canada is a foreigner as far as I'm concerned.

    They didn't seem to be Iranians, they had darker complexions than most
    Iranians I've met.

    I thought it was white slaves in North Africa, no?

    
    re: .318
    
    >They didn't seem to be Iranians, they had darker complexions...
    
    
    
    Makeup what can be bought in any party-supply store???

    Well then, it was a very convincing job. They had me fooled, especially
    the 50 year olds.

    
    How do you know they were 50?
    

       
       Besides, wasn't it snowing out?

    More disguises I'm sure.

He demanded to see their passports.

       
       Ah!  He demanded that they sing Christmas songs, and the only ones
       they knew weren't Iranian ones.

    
      He pulled one of their teeth, and had it analyzed by world-renowned
     experts in dental forensics...
    
      bb

    
    Iranian Christmas songs???
    
    This I gotta hear!!!!!
    

    
    	"Quincy" could have done that, easily.
    

       "On the 1st day of Christmas,.
        Ayatollah gave to me,
        A Camel and that spits at Pahlevi...."

    
    I muzz zee yooor bazzboorts!
    

| <<< Note 567.298 by CONSLT::MCBRIDE "Reformatted to fit your screen" >>>

| ...and fruit cakes at Christmas!


	But I like being able to participate at Christmas..... 

>    
>    Iranian Christmas songs???
>    

The Christians in Iran sing them _very_ quietly, so that the Ayatollahs
don't shoot them.

President Bishop Samir Kafity, of the Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the
Middle East (Anglican Communion, Cathedral of St. George in East Jerusalem),
is responsible for the pastoral care of a significant percentage of the
Christians in Iran.

/john

    I am reasonably certain that these trick or treaters weren't Christian
    Iranians. They may have been a figment of my imagination.

    Glenn:
    
    You missed a 1/2 Satanist snarf!!!

    I am not given to wasting disk space and cpu cycles on such fluff.

GR Fluffinstuff - oooh weren't you on TV?


\C

	Most Gracious Lady, lead our praises as we Magnify the Lord.

Ye watchers and ye holy ones,		Respond, ye souls in endless rest,
Bright seraphs, cherubim, and thrones,	Ye patriarchs and prophets blest,
Raise the glad strain,			  Alleluia,
  Alleluia!                               Alleluia!
Cry out, dominions, princedoms, powers,	Ye holy twelve, ye martyrs strong,
Virtues, archangels, angels' choirs,	All saints triumphant raise the song,
  Alleluia, alleluia,			  Alleluia, alleluia,
  Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia!		  Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia!

O higher than the cherubim,		O friends, in gladness let us sing,
More glorious than the seraphim,	Supernal anthems echoing,
Lead their praises,                       Alleluia!
  Alleluia!                               Alleluia!
Thou bearer of the eternal Word,        To God the Father, God the Son,
Most gracious, magnify the Lord,	And God the Spirit, Three in One,
  Alleluia, alleluia,			  Alleluia, alleluia,
  Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia!		  Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia!

>    I am not given to wasting disk space and cpu cycles on such fluff.

 He's too given to wasting disk space and cpu cycles on other kinds of fluff.

    Am I that transparent?

    
    Well...translucent, anyway.
    

    AS long as I'm not a pane.

    
    
    Fret not!!! Your reputation remains un-stained!!!
    

    
    His notes often cause my eyes to glaze over, though.
    

    They make others see red.

    
    You have your good points.
    
    

    Shshsanksh.

    
    	RE: ::BURT
    
    	That would be H.R. Puffinstuff.
    

re -1

Only if his name is Hlenn.


\C

    Kids had a great time for the holiday.  Carrie brought in quite a haul,
    and this year I had enough loot that I didn't have to raid her
    bag for the late shift of tricker-treaters.  I also let her carve her
    first pumpkin this year.  Helps that she grew it this year out in the
    community gardens.  We carved 5 decent jack-o-lanterns, on piccassoish,
    one cat, a couple of scared faces and a smily face (the scariest of all
    IMO)  frank said the peopl down the block had a full representation of
    dead rockstars including Gerry, Janice and Jimmy carved into their
    pumpkins.  Wish I could have seen them, but I had the pager and a busy
    couple of hours between the system and the little rats, fairies,
    tigers, and wannabe's that haunted the neighborhood.  (no stereotypical
    witches this year, there is a goddess).  Also had an opportunity to
    educate a few kids about the Muertos doilies hanging up around the
    house.  Bueno dios de los muertos, to you 'all tonight.
    
    meg

 Jerry, Janis, Jimi




 nnttm

    >    house.  Bueno dios de los muertos, to you 'all tonight.
    
    No thanks.  The "Day of the Dead" sounds to morbid for me to even
    bother with.
    
    �Gloria a Dios!
    Mike

    Mike there is nothing morbid about the day of thhe dead.  It is simply
    a way to honor those who have gone on before us.
    
    Generally alters are made with things the deceased members of the
    household loved being honored.  It also has some gentle humor reminding
    all of us that you don't get out of here alive.
    
    meg

       > It is simply a way to honor those who have gone on before us.
       
       I used to know a young lady who wore black garters in memory of
       those who had passed beyond.
       
       --Mr Topaz

    How charming it is, in this note, to see the equivalent of conquering
    Americans dishonoring the native american culture they have all but
    squashed into oblivion.  But nooo, every year, on one of the more
    sacred Native American holidays, they cluster around the campfire and
    piss on it,  Just to make sure the fire is still almost out.  And they
    do so while sanctimoniously intoning how evil it was, how significant
    it might be because it once was...  
    
    GET A CLUE, RELIGIOUS FANATICS -- HALLOWEEN IS NO THREAT TO
    ESTABLISHMENT RELIGION.  Imho, to attack it is to show how empty your
    own faith is.  You knocked it down, you have dominant cultural market
    share.  Why kick it?
    
    Sheesh.
    

    Let me explain...
    
    I find it personally very annoying (and not a little hypocritical) to
    see all the ranting & raving about how EVIL Halloween/Samhain/All
    Saints' Eve is, from religious imho nutters who apparently delight in
    further denigration of those who they & their allies thru the ages have
    already vanquished on the battlefield, in the town square, and in the
    court of religious acceptance.  
    
    It is almost the same as if, every year on some holiday sacred to
    Native Americans, or at some place sacred to their struggle, the US
    military were to come by and liberally reapply hot lead.  
    
    You WON, goddamnit!  Let up, whydoncha.  Or might that lack of
    adversary suddenly make you sit up and wonder "Gee, if I have no
    enemies, then what is my faith about?"  
    
    Makes ya think, I hope.  But I do not expect an answer from those who
    know this comment is directed at them.
    
    

I won't reply, then, seeing as how I'm not a religious nutter who
ranted and raved or delighted in denigrating former vanquished
enemies.

Pete

    Twue.  I just checked up on yez, and you are guilty of nothing more
    than OldFartitude.  Happens to the best of us.  Rest assured that I did
    not have your ?contributions? to this string in mind during my own
    rantings.
    
    :-)
    

Wonderful. I can take my Sunday nap in peace. Perhaps even put it in
the "things to like today" topic!

Pete

    	Each year my kids give 10% of the candy they collect to the
    	church food pantry.

    >How charming it is, in this note, [foaming lines deleted]
    
     Look on the bright side, Daniel. It gives you the opportunity to spew
    your own righteous invective. That this blurs the line between yourself
    and those you verbally excoriate is part of what makes this all so
    amusing.

    Hee Hee Hee...  Mr Above-the-fray speaketh...
    
    But amusingly, as you say.
    

| <<< Note 567.361 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Wanna see my scar?" >>>

| Each year my kids give 10% of the candy they collect to the
| church food pantry.


	Do you make them sing for it? Perhaps a little dance? :_)

    Do you not see my point, Doctah?  Is it not strange or unseemly to you
    that a holiday sacred to some is dissed by those who can't let go of
    the days when their ancestors' faith & the faith of those who
    celebrated it were vying for market-share?  I am curious as to your
    opinion of that there issue, before you so neatly jump up a level to
    critique the argumentation style...?
    

    >Do you not see my point, Doctah?

     Of course.

    >Is it not strange or unseemly to you
    >that a holiday sacred to some is dissed 

     I see the current uproar about Halloween as being a backlash against
    those who brought us no Christmas carols in school, and similar things.
    Sort of putting the shoe on the other foot. Of course people don't like
    it when their ox gets gored, but that's the point. Tit for tat. One
    supposes from your notes that you don't mind it when Christianity is
    similarly hassled by its opponents. You seem to think that different
    rules should apply to the "underdogs"; that is the essence of the
    double-standard, and hence I don't support such a notion.
    
     I don't have a need in my life to spend my energy making things
    difficult on other people, but obviously others do. Sometimes others'
    efforts affect me, sometimes they don't. IIWK, there'd be no fear of
    religion on the part of the government. At Christmastime, there would
    be cr�ches on on town square, as well as menorrahs (sp) and whatever
    artifacts pagans would like to use on their section. By being exposed
    to all of these different aspects of culture, our own lives would be
    enriched, and our children would be better prepared to accept and
    embrace diversity. Unfortunately, rabid people have made public
    displays of cr�ches and such things verboten, and hence we have a
    backlash against pagan displays, etc.

    >the days when their ancestors' faith & the faith of those who
    >celebrated it were vying for market-share?  

     This seems to inaccurately characterize the situation. Market-share
    doesn't seem to convey the fact that both faiths had nearly 100%
    "market-share" of the people in their respective cultures. It's just
    that one culture dominated the other, and became the de facto
    standard. It wasn't so much a matter of one religion "selling" better
    to the masses than the other; it was one culture asserting its
    dominance over the other. The wigwam was supplanted by the house in
    another example of this same dynamic.

    >I am curious as to your opinion of that there issue, 

     Gee, Dan, and I am curious about your opinion of a multiplicity of
    issues du jour, and yet beyond your lexical net.trinkets we rarely see you
    put your mind to these topics (to our collective detriment, methinks.)

     Do I think that the complaints about halloween are much ado 'bout
    nothing? Yes, indeed. Do I think your vociferous and emotional response
    was a bit overdone? Just a tad. Do I think that spinning your propellor
    on a monday morning is a terrible thing to do? No sir, I do not.
                                         

>Unfortunately, rabid people have made public displays of cr�ches
>and such things verboten, ...

I recently received a solicitation asking me to help finance placing
a large cr�che in Central Park.  The sponsors of this project are hoping
to obtain permission to place a cr�che of comparable scope to the 20 foot
menorah which is placed in Central Park across from the Plaza Hotel each
year.

/john

>    own faith is.  You knocked it down, you have dominant cultural market
>    share.  Why kick it?
    
    Are you referring to Christianity as having "dominant cultural market 
    share"?  
    
    Mike

�.297
�    ...and Silly String!

  Silly String is illegal in Marlboro(ugh) Mass.
  Throwing snowballs is also subject to a (?)$50 fine.

kb

(Amount of fine may have changed)

    doctah,
    
    since, I as a pagan had nothing to do with the loss of singing carols
    at xmas, I fail to see why you are blaming pagans for people wanting to
    end halloween celebrations.  What really wierds me out about it is
    those who seem to want to put a stop to the innocuous secular
    celebration are also those most likely to spout traditional values.  
    
    I don't force them to celebrate the religious piece from my traditions 
    anymore than I want them dragging me into mass at midnight on xmas eve.  
    Smahain has been celebrated for centuries, but it is just in the last
    few years that SOME people have decided to demonize it.
    
    Go figure.....

    >since, I as a pagan had nothing to do with the loss of singing carols
    >at xmas, I fail to see why you are blaming pagans for people wanting to
    >end halloween celebrations.  
    
     The fact that you didn't have anything to do with the assault on
    Christmas just means that your are collateral damage of the backlash.
    And please don't ascribe any anti-Halloween/Samhain position to me; the
    shoe doesn't fit, thanks just the same.    
    
    >Smahain has been celebrated for centuries, but it is just in the last
    >few years that SOME people have decided to demonize it.
    
     Hey, I relate. For years children sang Christmas carols in school and
    it was no big deal; only recently have such traditions come under
    attack. The backlash is pretty predictable and avoidable, if you ask
    me.

    I'm assuming that the 20 foot menorah you mention is subsidized by some
    sort of private contributions -- it would kinda have to be, in this day
    & age.  That assumption proving true (& I can't iMAgine it not!), I see
    nothing whatever wrong in you or anyone else collecting & contributing
    towards a cr�che in the park.
    
    I'd like to follow up with a hypothetical, though:  I feel it as likely
    as doom that were a group of Samhain-celebrants to pony up an
    equivalent amount of money to exhibit a symbol of THEIR heritage at
    that same area, that you would be out with sacred verses & various
    other dissings, in full force.  Might this admittedly hypothetical
    situation garner any comment, /john?
    
    Dan
    

    .372>  Hey, I relate. For years children sang Christmas carols in
    school and it was no big deal; only recently have such traditions come
    under attack. The backlash is pretty predictable and avoidable, if you
    ask me.
    
    I think this misses the point, Doctah.  You are equating "those who
    object to the singing of Christmas Carols in schools" to Druids/Samhain
    celebrants/I can't think of the right name for that tradition.  Why
    leave it solely at their doorstep?  As a Jew in school, having to sing
    the songs of the dominant religion was pretty awkward for me/my
    coreligionists.  But methinks the dominant force of change, making it
    more difficult for Christmas Carols to be sung in schools was NOT the
    Druids or the Jews, but rather the atheists and the strict
    constructionists of separation of church & state.  So imho your defense
    that "backlash" against that force should make it OK to diss Druids is
    irrelevant.  Which was what the previous noter (can't see the name from
    inside this reply) was saying.  Please address the issue.
    
    BTW, good propeller-spinning.  :-)
    
    |-{:-)
    
    

    Like the "lumbermen" at some public pagan events?
    
    (Lumbermen, carrying 2/4 crosses an megaphones to tell people how they
    are going to hell, a concept most pagans don't believe in)
    
    meg
    
    

    I'm assuming (because of the timestamps) that .375 was in reply to my
    hypothetical about what some folks from the "dominant religious
    market-share" do about & around pagan events.  Hi meg, thx for
    reminding me of the adjective.  Can't wait to hear what our Christian
    Brethren have to say about this 'un.
    

    ''Are you referring to Christianity as having "dominant cultural market 
      share"?''
    
    Sure am.
    
    You have a problem with that?  I'd LOVE to hear about it.
    
    Do tell
    

Dominant _where_?

I was under the impression that there are more followers of Islam than of 
Christ. 

\C

Christians	33.6%
Muslims		18.3%
Nonreligious	16.4%		[Source: 1995 Britannica Book of the Year.]
Hindus		13.5%
Buddhists	 6.0%

The next largest group is 4.2%, and all the rest only add up to 8%.

Roman Catholics account for 55.7% of all Christians and 18.7% of the
world's population.

/john

    In the U.S. of A islam is merely the fastest growing religion, not
    the largest.
    
    Xians tend to make enugh noise in the u.S. to make others forget there
    are other religions other than what they have to offer.
    
    meg
    
    

From a secular side, I suspect it's a more pleasant option being a 
non-Christian in a "Christian" society, than being a Christian in a 
non-Christian society. 

Tolerance is something people need to put up with :^)


\C

It's also interesting that "Christian-bashing" seems to be politically correct 
in both hemispheres.  Especially since recent anti-vilification legislation 
came into play here in Australia.

Fortunately it is comparatively rare in Australia for "faith-bashing" to prove 
fatal.


\C

    Worldwide stats aside, my pernt was that Christians have dominant
    market-share in the Good Ol' U.S.of-A.
    

Oh.  In the U.S.

86.5% Christian (of which Protestant 52.7%, Roman Catholic 26.2%,
		 Anglican 1% (but 34% of Presidents), other Christian
		 7.6%)

1.9% Muslim

1.8% Jewish

7.5% Nonreligious

2.3% Other

/john

    >But methinks the dominant force of change, making it
    >more difficult for Christmas Carols to be sung in schools was NOT the
    >Druids or the Jews, but rather the atheists and the strict
    >constructionists of separation of church & state.  So imho your defense
    >that "backlash" against that force should make it OK to diss Druids is
    >irrelevant.  
    
     You are raising non sequiturs at an alarming rate.
    
     First of all, your homework assignment is to show where I said it was
    ok to diss Druids or anyone else. There is a difference between
    explaining why a phenomenon occurs and supporting it.
    
     As for the backlash being somewhat misdirected IYHO, be that as it
    may, nobody ever said it was supposed to be logical. And anyway, how do
    you attack the traditions of "none of the above"?

    
    re:.375
    
    > (Lumbermen, carrying 2/4 crosses an megaphones to tell people how they
    > are going to hell, a concept most pagans don't believe in)
    
    I assume you mean 2" X 4" crosses.  If this is true, what a bunch of
    whimps!  They SHOULD be using 6" X 6" crosses.  
    At the VERY LEAST 4" X 6".  
    
    Anything else would be ludicrously light!
    
    Dan
    

    
    
    Went to a flea market this past Sunday and saw a huge cauldron there.
    Must have been three ft. across and as deep...
    
    Now why did I immediately think of meg?????
    
    :) :) :) :)
    

    Only if the cauldron was stainless steel or enamelled.  We are looking
    for a bigger wort boiler.
    
    meg

Don't you mean wart boiler?

| <<< Note 567.379 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

| Christians	33.6%

	John, do you believe that every single person who claims to be a
Christian, is? 



Glen

    Now we know why the Speaker of the US House of Representatives has worn
    an eyepatch since Hallowe'en...  Meg got to 'im!!
    
    :-)
    

    Oh, Meg makes my favourite potion!

    
    re: .388
    
    Nope.... sorry. It appeared to be cast iron... black as the ace of
    spades...
    

    Rats,
    
    No I had nothing to do with the "Eye of Newt."  The potions I make
    generally requires poundage of malted barley, occaisional fruit, and
    hops.
    
    meg

    
    MEG!  I didn't know you were into that kinda kinky stuff!  Well if you
    like bou...huh?!..."poundage"... oh..
    
    NEVERMIND!
    
    ;->
    

    .379
    
    
    >Roman Catholics account for 55.7% of all Christians and 18.7% of the
    >world's population.
    
    But, and this should surprise no one, they control 100% of the guilt.
    Go figure...

re .396

Nah, Jewish mothers have a significant corner on the market as well.

/john

    
    Oy!
    

    
    				I just gotta be me, is that so wrong?
					 /
					/
			^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	               {               }
	               {   o       o   }
	               {               }
	               {       o       }
	               {               }
	               {   o       o   }
	               {               }
		        vvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

    
    <-- that's still the cutest little cracker.
    
    

           <<< BACK40::BACK40$DKA500:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SOAPBOX.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< Soapbox.  Just Soapbox. >-
================================================================================
Note 362.890                     Waco compounded                      890 of 890
CSOA1::LEECH "Dia do bheatha."                       11 lines  29-SEP-1995 10:15
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                 -------|------|------------
                        ++    ++
                        ||---M||
                        ||     |
                       /\-------\
                      (00)       \
                      (  )        *
                    /
                 moo?
    

    <--- oops.
    
    Anyone know how to stop an 'extract' process mid-stream?  I was going be
    clever and have my cow eat that there cracker posted a few notes back,
    but mistakenly left out a "." when extracting the string.  I had to
    reboot my PC, as none of the normal commands would work to stop the
    process.
    
    Of course, I'm on a different node now, so I can't delete the last
    note. 
    
    
    -steve

    Ahh, the spirit of the Great Cracker has prevented it.

    it _is_ a cute cracker.

    Control C cancels an extract.  
    FORMAT C:/Q/U usually fixes larger problems.
             

    
    re: .400
    
    >  <-- that's still the cutest little cracker.
    
    
      is it from Southern Canada???
    

    Control C didn't work this go round.  Perhaps I didn't wait long
    enough- I'm used to it working right quicklike.  

    Control X then to flush your buffer.  Control Y to cream it.
    use a modem like me.  Nothing works quicklike.

    Then let X fix Y a drink.

    
    Too late for this year but important just the same:
    
    http://www.kosone.com/people/ocrt/int_educ.htm

>  <<< Note 567.377 by DRDAN::KALIKOW "DIGITAL=DEC; Reclaim the Name&Glory!" >>>
>
>    ''Are you referring to Christianity as having "dominant cultural market 
>      share"?''
>    
>    Sure am.
>    
>    You have a problem with that?  I'd LOVE to hear about it.
    
    My experience doesn't reflect that.  What exact areas do we have
    "dominant cultural market share" in?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    Sorry Mike, ain't gonna play.  You'll prolly say that your poor
    Christian values are getting persecuted & all.  Exeunt omnes.
    

    Hey sorry folks for contributing to the urban decay of what was, once,
    a light 'n' fluffy Halloween note...  TOUGH!!
    
    And... With thanks to Meg Evans's 567.375...
    
    OK /john, I can understand & appreciate why you have chosen not to
    respond to my queries in 567.373.  Perhaps partly because you know that
    I find your constant preaching very unmannerly, and thus rarely lose an
    opportunity to call you on it. 
    
    So, to honor your constancy to your beliefs (however misguided I
    believe your insistence upon using them to devalue the beliefs of
    others to be), I shall henceforth refer to you by a new 'BoxSobriquet:
    
    Lumber/john
    
    I limited myself to merely adding to your current one, & forebore from
    changing a single character, though I was sore tempted to substitute a
    more religious-looking ASCII char for the slash.  I do this much more
    out of respect for the better parts of the tradition represented by
    that symbol, than out of respect for your Lumber/Self.
    
    Hope it sticks!!
    
    NNTTM... 
    
    |-{:-)
    

>    My experience doesn't reflect that.  What exact areas do we have
>    "dominant cultural market share" in?

Go in any store at this time of year.

>  <<< Note 567.412 by DRDAN::KALIKOW "DIGITAL=DEC; Reclaim the Name&Glory!" >>>
>
>    Sorry Mike, ain't gonna play.  You'll prolly say that your poor
>    Christian values are getting persecuted & all.  Exeunt omnes.
    
    Nice hit & run tactics.  Thanks for backing up your claims.
    
    Mike

>  <<< Note 567.414 by NOTIME::SACKS "Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085" >>>
>
>>    My experience doesn't reflect that.  What exact areas do we have
>>    "dominant cultural market share" in?
>
>Go in any store at this time of year.
    
    Gerald, what bothers you?  Thanksgiving or the worship of Santa Claus?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

The total immersion -- the music on the PA system, the decorations, the
seasonal merchandise, the shopping frenzy, the forced jollity.

Thanksgiving's just a blip on the screen.

 Hey, at least one rarely has to hear the word "Christmas" anymore..it is
 now "Holiday".




 Jim

    	re .417
    
    	The majority of that is secular in nature and has nothing to
    	do with Christianity or Christmas itself.  It has to do with
    	consumerism, commercialism, and the "Holiday Season".
    
    	The word Christmas is being purged from society's vocabulary.

<---and rightly so in a country with as many diverse backgrounds as this one.

re .419:

No doubt it's mostly secular, but it's still proof that Christianity has the
dominant position in our society.  And there's plenty of Christian content --
just listen to the carols on the PA system, look at the creches, etc.

    
    Of course it is Gerald... it's always been a Christian holiday... but
    don't worry... it's becoming more and more correct as the years go
    by...

    Gerald, I don't see much of Christianity in Christmas today.  Maybe 20
    years ago, but it's been pc'ed to death.
    
    Today it's big business, Santa Claus, candy canes, reindeer, and Jingle 
    Bells.
    
    It's not nearly as G-d centered as Advent or Hannukah, or any of the
    Feasts of Israel (all of which are celebrated in my home).  I've
    exchanged secularism for the holidays prescribed by G-d in His Word.
    
    Mike

    Re .415 Heiser, re my .412
    
    I'se agonna cry myself to sleep tonight.
    

    
    Re .0
    
    I hadn't really planned it, but I became a Dad at 06:30 on halloween.
    
    Now that was scary................................
    
    /David

    But wonderful too right?
    
    

    You bet. The first addition to the family...........
    
    Never felt anything like it, emotionally or literally !...........
    
    simply the best...
    
    /David

    
    well Dave, congratulations!!!!!