Conference back40::soapbox

    
    
    Is what the solution to what?
    
    
    Mike

    Ed:
    
    I hate to beat on a dead horse but I'm going to.  A very big reason why 
    the situation is as it is lies in the fact that the Great Society and
    the New Deal failed as a tool to bring African Americans back into
    parity with America economically.
    
    Slavery of course lead to the destruction of African families sent here
    against their will.  I believe that society had to go through an
    evolutionary period and inner city black families would have been far
    greater off had the democrat party not interfered so much in this
    evolution.  Many years ago businesses would have a sign stating, "Irish
    Need Not Apply".  And now we don't even hear about this.
    
    No.  Black families in this country went through two suppressions.  One
    of course was slavery and the other was this camiflaged lie that the
    federal government is here to help you...and knows what is best for
    you!  Lie!
    
    -Jack 

    
    Jack, you never cease to amaze me. I hope you are a better sales type
    than you are a writer, because if not......

ZZZ     because if not......
    
    I will continue to be a member of the Digital Sales Force! :-)

    
      Ed - appalling, the interaction between our awful legal system,
          and young black American males.
    
           Let those who say we don't have to worry about the decline
          of the family explain this one.  Better yet, since white families
          are falling apart to the level of black families, maybe we
          should build anticipatory prisons for all the white fatherless
          boys while we're at it.
    
      bb

	Jack, I have to hand it to you. Another note that made my mouth drop.
Jack, I know some African Americans that I would love to introduce to you. You
can have these types of conversations with them face to face. I think it is the
only way for you to learn a thing or two. I know it did wonders for me. 



Glen

                      <<< Note 563.0 by NEMAIL::BULLOCK >>>
                     -< Black Americans and Incarceration >-

I have read that a male child who is raised without a father is two to 
three times as likely to use illegal drugs and two to three times as likely 
to get into trouble with the law.  As I recall, these numbers are not 
affected by race, education, or economic conditions.  [I'm sorry to say that 
I don't have the source.  If someone else has the source, I'd appreciate it
if that person would post it.]

If you look at births by unmarried women as a percentage of all births in
racial groups (_Statistical_Abstracts_ table 100):

        1970    1980    1985    1990    1991
white	   6      11      15      20      22
black     38      55      60      65      68

If these statistics are accurate, then 68% of African American children are
born with mothers who have never been married, are widowed, or currently 
divorced.  If fatherless children are a cause for alarm, then these 
statistics would appear to be very important.

    Glen:
    
    Even if I'm full of hot air, the point is that your mouth drops alot,
    and you piss and moan alot, but you rarely offer anything of substance
    to counteract what I am saying.
    
    I never stated there wasn't a place for welfare or anything like that. 
    What I am telling you is that the AFDC and other such goodies over the
    years have set a precedence of dependence and has squelched African
    family traditions that would have prevented this cycle from occuring.  
    I fail to see what is so unbelievable about this.
    
    -Jack

	Read where you said the government told them a big lie. Then sit down
with a group of African Americans and tell them the same thing. Then LISTEN to
what they have to say. You see, Jack, I have done just that. About 2 years ago
to be exact. I learned an awful lot on those days. I'm far from knowing it all
on the matter, but I know a lot more now then I did then. Talk WITH the group
of people you are making these claims about is going to allow you to see much
more than when you just talk about them, like you're some sort of expert. 



Glen

ZZ    Talk WITH the group of people you are making these claims about is going 
ZZ    to allow you to see much
ZZ    more than when you just talk about them, like you're some sort of expert. 
    
    I'm ragging on the LBJ bumb kissers.  Is that who you want me to talk
    to?  I'm ragging on white uppity elitist beaurocrats.  Is that who you
    want me to talk to?

	African Americans. The people who you say have gotten such a bum deal,
but weren't on your list of people in the last note.

    Okay Glen, then let's assume what I'm saying is incorrect.  This
    defaults to two possibilities.  One is that black people are
    genetically inferior which I categorically reject.  The other
    possibility is that the justice system is grossly unfair and that
    whites are statistically getting away with alot more.  A conspiracy
    although I believe can happen and does happen, does not fully account
    for the disproportionate number of blacks in prison.  
    
    So which one is it?
    
    -Jack

    The third possibility is that crime is linked to economic depression,
    unemployment and lack of opportunity.  If a dissproportionate number of
    blacks fall into that category it would explain the prison population
    without any unfairness in the justice system.
    
    Axel

    And a fourth is that there are laws which are racist in nature.  
    
    Things to ponder:
    
    Why is it that it takes 800 grams of cocaine to receive the same
    mandatory minimum as 8 grams of Crack cocaine?  (hint. figure which is
    more likely to be used by the wealthy and powerful, and which is the
    cheap form used by the impoverished of all races)
    
    meg

    
    	Is crack 100x as powerful as regular cocaine?
    
    	That could be the real reason.
    

    
    
    RE: .13  
    
    
    Axel,
    
    I can agree sith some of your note, but the lack of opportunity doesn't
    get it.  If you want to change it to perceived lack of opportunity,
    I'll buy that.
    
    
    Mike

       Anyone who claims to have the answers that will bring a solution
       to the problem that Ed raises in .0 is either the world's most
       brilliant social scientist or one of many, many people who see
       simple answers to inordinately complex problems.

       With any problem, the real solution lies in treating the root
       cause, and not simply alleviating the symptoms.  In this case,
       the root causes are so widespread as to be virtually indefinable;
       moreover, many of them are interrelated: the economic
       disadvantages that many blacks face; the low proportion of black
       children who live with their fathers; the drugs and gangs that
       infest and infect city neighborhoods; racism in the workplace, in
       the shopping malls, and virtually anyplace where they interact
       with significant numbers of white people.

       I am convinced that many of these issues cannot successfully be
       addressed by the white community or by governments controlled the 
       white community.  Solutions to issues of family breakdown and
       imparting the importance of education and the insidiousness of
       drugs and gangs can come only from within the black community. 
       Good intentions notwithstanding, I believe that the white
       community can best help these issues by keeping its distance.

       On the other hand, it is only the white community that can
       address the issue of racism among whites.  The biggest hurdle is
       simply recognizing that racism exists and that it is pervasive. 
       Recognizing that Fuhrmans are police departments, in computer
       companies, in government agencies throughout the company.  

       Perhaps more insidious that the Fuhrmans are those who are less
       obvious in their racism--in all likelihood, they don't even
       recognize it in themselves.  People who unconsciously assume that
       the black man got his job because of his race, or who
       unconsciously assume that the black woman at K-Mart is on
       welfare, or who unconsciously move over just a bit more than
       necessary when they see the black person coming from the other
       direction.  

       And then there is the majority of white people, people who don't
       overtly display racism, but at the same time people who don't do
       very much to combat it.  People who keep silent when one of their
       friends tells a racist joke, or when someone at the lunch table
       broadbrushes blacks with some negative attribute.  I'm in this
       category as much as anyone else, mostly because it seems easier
       to be quiet rather than raise a fuss, but silence has its price.

       Racism is not confined to the white community, either: it's a
       two-way street, and the black community has been well-taught. 
       Racism in the black community is something that whites cannot
       solve -- it's yet one more issue that can be addressed only by
       blacks. 

       It's important for white people to stop denying that racism is
       pervasive and a key element of the issues faced by the black
       community.  In another note somewhere, Chris Butkovich said that
       perhaps everyone is a racist to one extent or another, and I
       suspect that her statement is exceptionally insightful.

       The only means to improving the issues raised in .0 -- and this
       isn't even a solution, just an improvement -- is if both the
       white and black communities begin to recognize the issues that they
       can each respectively address.  

       --Mr Topaz
       

    >>Is crack 100x as powerful as regular cocaine?
    
    As far as I know not even.  However it is cheap, easily obtained and
    less bulky.  The rush lasts a shorter amount of time, although it is
    supposed to be more intense than snorting coke.  However for intensity
    and lasting power, from what I understand, IV injection of cocaine is
    the way to go.  (Bleah the idea makes me gak)  This has to be done with
    the non-smokable form of cocaine, ie the yuppie form, rather than the
    inner-city form.  (Information from a former iv user. I have no first
    -hand knowlege nor would I want to.)
    
    It does have a worse reputation, but I believe this is more classism in
    action than anything else.  It did make the gangs profits to where they
    are today.
    
    meg

    
    
    Good note, Don.  Why is it that a white person might move over when a
    group of black youths are walking by?  I imagine that fear is the
    driving factor.  
    
    
    Mike

    
    
    And also, why would Jesse Jackson make the comment that he made
    regarding being relieved when he hears a group of kids behind him and
    seeing that they're white kids?
    
    
    Mike

    Er, what Mr. Topaz really meant to say was:
    
    
    
    
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    					.',.' `.' ; `,,,.',.','.,.',.',.',.',.'
					.',.',.',.' `.',,.',.','.,.',.',.',.',.'
					 .',.',.' `.' ; `,,,','.,.',.',.',.',.'
			               `.' ; `,,,.',.,.,.',.','.,.',.',.',.',.'
    8^pPppPPpPpPppPPPppPppPppPPppppPPpPPPp'; ' '` ` ` . ` ,;., '  .  `,,.''.,
					'  '  '' '   `,,,.',.','.,.',.',.',.'
    					`,,,.',.','.,.',.',.',.', .',.',.' `.' ;
 			 		.',.' `.' ; `,,,.',.','.,.',.',.',.',.'
					,, ` ' `.' ; `,,,.',.','.,.',.',.',.',.'
    				       '  '  '' '   ` .   ,.','.',.',.',, `
    				       `'  '' '  ` ` ` ,.,`,.',.','.,'.,'.,
    					   ; ,' ' `  `	 .,.''.,,'..','.,',
                                                 ,.'',.',.',          ,.
                                                           .,.','.,'.,'
    
    Well, maybe not.

    
    FWIW:

    Powdered cocaine can be snorted directly or "boiled;" i.e.
    it is dissolved in a small amount of water on a spoon, heated
    with a lighter and then injected.

    Crack is derived from powdered cocaine. The process is
    relatively simple, and what was known as "free basing"
    in the Richard Pryor era is actually the production
    of crack... or at least carbonate free-basing is.

    From what I remember of the process, some small portion of
    water is boiled, and another portion is chilled (almost
    to the freezing point.) Baking soda is dissolved in the
    cold water, the cocaine is dissolved in the hot water.
    The two solutions are then added together over a beaker
    fitted with a funnel and a coffee filter. The water will
    run through the filter, but the carbonated cocaine
    residue will remain behind. When this dries, it forms
    a "rock". There you have it, crack production 101.

    -b

    
                          (__)         ' ' '
                          (oo)       ' ' '' '
                   /-------\/     '  ' ' ''  ''  ' '    
                  / |     ||* ''''  '  ... ;; ';';;.....' 
                 *  ||W---|| ''' ''''''' '''''  ' ' ' ''  ' '
                    ~~    ~~  '''''''  '''''  '' '' ' ' ' '
                                '' ' '' ' '' ' ;''''''
                                  ' ' ' ' '' '   ' '
                                   ' '   '   '  

    
    P.S. to .24
    
    There was another form of free-basing which involved the
    use of ether. That is why I distinguished the process
    I described as "carbonate free-basing".
    
    -b

| <<< Note 563.12 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>


| Okay Glen, then let's assume what I'm saying is incorrect.  

	Oh.... that was a given. :-)

| This defaults to two possibilities.  

	This is where you lose. You can't group it into two catagories. If you
do, then you leave out a hell of a lot of them. Lets look at the little things
that really aren't as little as we think. What color is good, and what color is
evil? What color cloud is hanging over people's heads when they are having
rough times? The list is endless. White has always meant good, and black as
bad. Take that into the cities and you can't find too many white people who can
walk down the street towards a groups of African Americans without some sort of
fear going through their minds. With the way everything has been all along, you
can't catagorize them into 2 nice neat little packages. Cuz when you do that, 
you add yet another reason to the list. 




Glen

    Don:
    
    I really don't want to have a pissing contest with you today. 
    I don't disagree with your perceptions of racism.  Apparently you
    believe me to fall under one of two categories...one being that I am
    racist and know I am, but attempt to hide it with some sort of nice guy
    agenda or flattery.  The second possibility is that I am racist and
    simply don't know it.  
    
    I am glad you mentioned that racism is not just limited to white
    individuals.  The million man march for example, lead by Benjamin
    Chavis and Mr. Farrakham (sp?) in my mind is a march on Washington
    D.C., lead by racists and some of the worst bigots I've had the
    displeasure of hearing.  Two questions that I would like you to
    address.
    
    1. Why is it assumed by people such as yourself that if a point is
    brought up that makes people uncomfortable...such as possibly the last
    paragraph above...why is it that I must be a racist for bringing it up?
    
    The other question revolves around Affirmative Action as a racist
    policy but we've already beaten that one to death.  Therefore, could
    you please address the question.  I honestly want to know, it might
    help us communicate more constructively.
    
    Rgds.
         

| <<< Note 563.21 by GRANPA::MWANNEMACHER "NRA fighting for our RIGHTS" >>>



| Good note, Don. Why is it that a white person might move over when a group of 
| black youths are walking by? I imagine that fear is the driving factor.

	So isn't catagorizing, like Jack does so often. We catagorize them all
into one group, due mostly (imho) to fear, and lack of knowledge. (I believe
the latter will heighten the former) Do you need to fear these youths? Your
mind says yes, but you don't really know. 


Glen

    Glen:
    
    People do make generalizations, just like Jesse Jackson did regarding
    Black youths.  But this aligns more with prejudice.  I am still talking
    about the high incidence of prison amongst black youths.
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 563.30 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>

| People do make generalizations, just like Jesse Jackson did regarding
| Black youths.  But this aligns more with prejudice.  I am still talking
| about the high incidence of prison amongst black youths.

	Jack, I don't think you get it. Prejudice is ONE reason for it all. Not
understanding the individuals is another. Fear another, and so on and so on....
if you're viewed as someone bad, is it going to be easy to get work, provide
for your family? Nope. You can not put African Americans into 2 neat little
packages and then say that these are the only two choices. As it is clear from
what others have been saying since you put that note in, you're wrong.


Glen

    
    	If I'm walking down a street in a city, and a group of youths
    	is coming the other way, I would be wary of them regardless of
    	color.
    

    Re: 27
    
    What a bunch of crap.  Refering to common terms in use for decades, if
    not centuries as a put down of African Americans is absolute crap.  The
    terms about a black cloud, etc were used LONG before African Americans
    referred to themselves a black.  NO racial inference was ever used for
    these terms.  Black has always had  a negative connotation, but not
    because of race, it had more to do with superstition and the concept of
    darkness beinf evil.  Evil was done at night or the cover of darkness, 
    good was done in the light of day for all to see.
    
    Your entry is a perfect example of of error of logic known as post hoc
    ergo propter hoc.  Your use is particularly vicious and despicable.
    
    As far the topic is concerned the result we see is the end product of
    years of breaking down socially acceptable norms and replacing them
    with a concept of "anything goes".  Poverty does not lead to crime, use
    the Depression as a point of reference.  Using poverty as an excuse
    only gets you more of the same behavior.
    
    Poor black families and white families and all color families raised
    responsible children.  financial standing has nothing to do with the
    results we see.  Societal values and elitist liberals have everything
    to do with the situation.
    

    -1 ahhh, so the kids must be a pile of liars then. 
    
       almost without exception, every interview i've ever seen with
       ghetto, project, etc. kids was the mention (by them) of a sad
       statement of lack of worth and hope that they would a) even
       survive  b) ever get out of their situation. by situation they
       were referring to where they lived, how they lived, etc.
    
       sure, it doesn't always have to be that way and many kids have risen
       above their existences, but to say that an economic situation
       doesn't account for this is a load crap. the same thing (maybe to
       a lesser degree) was going on in the immigrants slums at the turn
       of the century.

    
    
    RE: .29  Glen, reread your sentence, it doesn't make sense as it is
    written.  FWIW, I deal with more AA folks in an hour than you probably
    do all day.  It really is silly for you to try and explain these
    relationships to me.  I take everyone on an individual basis.  No
    preconceived notions, no nothing.  Even though I have been mugged by 
    blacks in the past because I was white, that point was not left for me
    to figure out.  I work with a lot of good folks down here and color
    doesn't come into the pictures for me.  
    
    Mike

    Jesse Jackson weighed in with the opinion that the statistics regarding
    the percentage of black males being serviced by the criminal justice
    system is indicative of problems with the criminal justice system. One
    might conclude from such a position that he finds the behavior of these
    black men to be satisfactory. Of course, if you asked him if he thought
    that black murderers or black rapists or black drug dealers ought not
    be held accountable for their crimes, I'm sure he'd backpedal. But the
    thrust of his position is that if the justice system were just, then
    fewer black americans would be incarcerated/on parole and that the
    numbers indicate a problem with the justice system itself.

       re .36:
       
       I'd be very surprised if Jesse Jackson "finds the behavior of
       these [incarcerated] black men to be satisfactory."  I suspect
       there's a far better chance that Jackson would say that a black
       man dealing or using drugs is far more likely to be apprehended
       and sent to the slammer than is a white man.  If in fact he would
       say that, he'd have some reliable statistics to back up such
       suggestions.
       
       I have heard Jesse Jackson say that black kids need to clean up
       their lives and stay out of prison.  However, I understand his
       complaint alluded to in .36 to be the unequal application of
       police work and the justice system.

    >   I have heard Jesse Jackson say that black kids need to clean up
    >   their lives and stay out of prison.  
    
     They aren't going to do that just because he says so, unfortunately.
    They need good role models, which are in frightfully short supply. They
    need a father, not a visitor. They aren't getting them. The correlation
    between families with absentee fathers and crime is much higher than
    the correlation between race or income level to crime. This is not a
    problem that white liberals (or white conservatives, for that matter)
    can fix for african americans.

    .32
    
    What if it was just two youts?

    
    
    Actually there are wuite a few good role models for everyone.  The
    thing is, we are always looking in the wrong places.  We are looking
    towards entertainers, sports figures, etc for our examples when, in all
    likelyhood, that type of fame and fortune will not be attained by the
    vast majority of us.  Look around you, there are people of all walks of
    life providing for their families, trying to get by just like you and I
    are.  These are the people who should be the role models for today's
    youth.  
    
    Mike

    A little difficult to have role models when 30%+ of the fathers of some
    children are in prison.  

    
    	RE: .39
    
    	Big youts, or small youts?  Weapons showing, or no weapons show-
    	ing?  Lots of variables.
    
    
    	RE: .41
    
	>when 30%+ of the fathers of some children are in prison.  
    
    	Error parsing.  30% of what/who?
    

    Sean,
    
    30% of black men aged 15-30 are in prison.  This means a kid's chance
    of having a father incarcerated are upwards of 30% or more.  

    
    	OK, now I understand.  That "30% of fathers of some children"
    	opens up a huge window for the actual number.
    

    
    
    Not really Meg.  The vast majority 67% are not in prison.  So the
    chance is not "good" as you put it.
    
    
    

    >Actually there are wuite a few good role models for everyone.  The
    >thing is, we are always looking in the wrong places.  We are looking
    >towards entertainers, sports figures, etc for our examples when, in all
    >likelyhood, that type of fame and fortune will not be attained by the
    >vast majority of us.  Look around you, there are people of all walks of
    >life providing for their families, trying to get by just like you and I
    >are.  These are the people who should be the role models for today's
    >youth.  
    
     It's the dearth of "good family men" role models that I am speaking
    of. You are not a "good family man" if you are off siring children 
    and not being in the home and being a father to the children. And this
    is an epidemic.

    >A little difficult to have role models when 30%+ of the fathers of some
    >children are in prison.  
    
     Even harder when barely 30% of fathers live with their children.

"Commenting on social forces and their current impact on the
administration of justice, the late criminologist Donald R.
Cressey concluded that

"there is a great deal of evidence that current statutes calling
for punishment of lawbreakers are not administered uniformly, or 
with celerity or certainty.  This suggests that the actual reactions
to crime are not really reflected in the laws governing the 
administration of justice...The following conclusions have been 
drawn by so many investigators that they may be accepted as factual:

1.  Blacks are more likely to be arrested than whites.
2.  Blacks are more likely to be indicted than whites.
3.  Blacks have a higher conviction rate than whites.
4.  Blacks are usually punished more severely than whites,
    but this is not true for all crimes, especially those
    in which a black person victimizes a black person.
5.  Blacks are less likely to receive probation and suspended
    sentences.
6.  Blacks receive pardons less often than whites.
7.  Blacks have less chance of having a death sentence commuted
    than do whites.""

Source:  "Criminal Law", 5th ed., Joel Samaha
Cressey quote from "Criminology", 10th ed., 1978

| <<< Note 563.33 by POBOX::ROCUSH >>>


| -< Your entry was pathetic. >-

	How nice of you to comment.

| What a bunch of crap. Refering to common terms in use for decades, if not 
| centuries as a put down of African Americans is absolute crap.  

	I am looking at this through their eyes. This is far from crap. We went
over many a thing in those few days, and this was one of them. I agree with
THEM. 

| Poor black families and white families and all color families raised
| responsible children.  

	Yes, this is true.

| financial standing has nothing to do with the results we see.  

	This is false. It comes down to how do the families who are raising the
kids deal with their financial standing? 

| Societal values and elitist liberals have everything to do with the situation.

	Could you give some examples?


Glen

    
    
    You is a city boy Glen, that's for sure.  
    
    First off, you can't look at it through their eyes.
    
    
    secondly, go out to the country where there are blacks and whites
    living in poverty but still live by the laws of the land and don't lie,
    cheat or steal to better themselves.  There are a bunch of folks like
    this out there.
    
    Mike

| <<< Note 563.35 by GRANPA::MWANNEMACHER "NRA fighting for our RIGHTS" >>>



| RE:.29 Glen, reread your sentence, it doesn't make sense as it is written.  

	Mike, I did and it makes perfect sense. I guess that is probably
because I wrote it. Point out what doesn't make sense with it if you would.

| FWIW, I deal with more AA folks in an hour than you probably do all day. It 
| really is silly for you to try and explain these relationships to me. I take 
| everyone on an individual basis. No preconceived notions, no nothing. 

	Mike, do you view a group of African American kids who are walking down
the street in a group with no preconceived notions? 



Glen

    
    Not any more or less than I view a group of white kids in the same
    circumstance.  
    
    
    Mike 

| <<< Note 563.50 by GRANPA::MWANNEMACHER "NRA fighting for our RIGHTS" >>>

| You is a city boy Glen, that's for sure.

	Only for the last six years. Before that I was a burb boy. :-)

| First off, you can't look at it through their eyes.

	Of course not. We might be able to understand where they are coming
from if we do something like that. Then with knowing where they are coming
from, we might be able to solve what is wrong, correct any misconceptions, and
actually make some good headway. So yeah, why should we bother looking at it
through their eyes......

| secondly, go out to the country where there are blacks and whites living in 
| poverty but still live by the laws of the land and don't lie, cheat or steal 
| to better themselves. There are a bunch of folks like this out there.

	Mike, the group I sat with were from the country. They were not from
the city. So I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.


Glen

| <<< Note 563.52 by GRANPA::MWANNEMACHER "NRA fighting for our RIGHTS" >>>


| Not any more or less than I view a group of white kids in the same 
| circumstance.

	And what is that view, Mike?

================================================================================
Note 563.29             Black Americans and Incarceration               29 of 52
BIGQ::SILVA "Diablo"                                 14 lines   9-OCT-1995 16:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| <<< Note 563.21 by GRANPA::MWANNEMACHER "NRA fighting for our RIGHTS" >>>



| Good note, Don. Why is it that a white person might move over when a group of 
| black youths are walking by? I imagine that fear is the driving factor.

>	So isn't catagorizing, like Jack does so often.  
    
    This is where I got lost.
    
    >We catagorize them all into one group, due mostly (imho) to fear, and lack
    > of knowledge. (I believe the latter will heighten the former) Do you need
    > to fear these youths? Your mind says yes, but you don't really know. 

    
    >Glen
    
	I understand this part of what you said.  You question whether the 
    fear is rational or not and rightly so.  It may not be valid, but it is 
    real to the person experiencing it.  Fear is rooted in many things, past 
    life experiences, what we see, hear and read in the media, etc.  
    
    
    
    Mike

    
    
    It depends upon how they are carrying themselves.  Mostly NBD, but if
    they are acting peculiar (a subjective thing to be sure) then I am more
    aware of my surroundings.
    
    
    Mike

| <<< Note 563.55 by GRANPA::MWANNEMACHER "NRA fighting for our RIGHTS" >>>


| >	So isn't catagorizing, like Jack does so often.

| This is where I got lost.

	If a group of youths are walking towards you and you fear them, you
have just catagorized them. Jack Martin catagorizes things quite often.

| It may not be valid, but it is real to the person experiencing it.  

	I agree with the above. To that person, it is real. 

| Fear is rooted in many things, past life experiences, what we see, hear and 
| read in the media, etc.

	Which is why I think one of the best ways to handle the above is to get
to know people. Sit and talk with them. You can learn so much. 


Glen

    
>	Which is why I think one of the best ways to handle the above is to get
>to know people. Sit and talk with them. You can learn so much. 
    
    
    	"Hey, you sure look like a nice bunch of kids ... is that a new
    	Glock, or do you just keep it really clean?  I've got a great
    	idea ... why don't we zip around the corner and grab a few root
    	beers and chat for awhile.  Say, how about them Red Sox, eh?"
    

    re.55 
    
    >>  what we see, hear and read in the media, etc.      
                            
    If  the media influences your view of African Americans, then you are
    sadly misguided.  The media is often written/produced/distributed by
    individuals (or groups) that are racist themselves.  So naturally,
    their views are slanted and biased.
    
    Amanda
    

    
    Not to fret, Amanda.  My views are definitely not affected by the
    media.  Although I wonder about someone who thinks the media is racist.
    
    
    Mike

  ZZZ    Although I wonder about someone who thinks the media is racist.
    
    Mike, when I heard the media's attempt to incite a riot last week, I
    took that as racist; i.e. black urban Americans are expected to riot
    because they have no self control.
    
    -Jack

    
    
    I know these are eggshells we are dancing on, but I think that the
    media is anything but racist these days.  I think they bend over
    backwards to make sure they aren't.  At least the news which I have
    watched in this area.  
    
    
     

    re .62 
    
    And just what area are you in?  I find it hard to believe that you
    haven't watched or heard about the OJ Simpson trial (not to beat a
    dead horse.)  The media DEFINITELY slanted it to make it a
    Black-man-killed-two-white-people issue instead of what it really was:
    the trial of an alleged murderer.  And that's just one example.  
    
    People that deny that racism exists are worse than racists themselves.
    
    Amanda
    

    
    Amanda,
    
    Who denied that racism exists?
    

    
    >>  but I think that the media is anything but racist these days.  I
    think they bend over backwards to make sure they aren't. 
    
   Anyone that can't see that the media is often (not always) biased is in
    obvious denial.
    
    Amanda
    

    
    
    
          The media has successfully portrayed an image of the so called
          "inner city" that reinforces and continues to portray uninformed
          viewers with stereotypes. When I tell people that I live in
          Mattapan,..it's like,..WHAT?! WHERE?! YOU LIVE WHERE?!
    
          MATTAPANNNNNNNNNN!! MOTHER OF ALL CREATURES BIG AND SMALL!!!
          
          MAN ARE YOU INSANE?!!! IS YOUR WIFE STILL WITH YOU?!
    
          There are people in my neighborhood that are teachers, work
          for companies like NYNEX, Raytheon,..etc. and have solid
          families. The only thing you see and hear about are the problems.
    
    
          Ed

    
    .65, Amanda:
        
    >Anyone that can't see that the media is often (not always) biased is in
    >obvious denial.
    
    Biased?  Well, of COURSE the media is biased.  Does bias = racism?  Are
    the media racially biased, or are they biased in favour of big-selling
    stories?  What, then, does that reflect?
    
    How often is "often"?  More than half?
    
    I happen to agree with Mike; the media in general goes out of their
    way to *appear* unbiased, and not just from a racial perspective.
    That's not quite the same thing as "denying that racism exists".
    Most media outlets I patronize are decidedly pro-multiculturalism,
    so I guess I don't see so much of this racism in media that you seem
    to encounter.
    

    Ed:
    
    Yes, I remember.  You straightened me out on that last year.  Sorry but
    I went by what I heard.  And all I heard was bad things about Mattapan.
    
    They were a topic of Chet and Natalie just about every night!
    
    -Jack

    
    
    
       re.68
    
       Not just Mattapan,...it's "any inner city u.s.a." Ask people
       about Harlem and they'll say the same thing. The unfortunate
       things is if you ask the same people about The Harlem Renaissance
       the response is.......huh?
    
    
       Ed

    >The media DEFINITELY slanted it to make it a
    >Black-man-killed-two-white-people issue instead of what it really was:
    >the trial of an alleged murderer.  And that's just one example.  
     
    Maybe so in Texas, but not in New England.  It was "celebrity
    allegedly kills battered ex-wife and innocent bystander".
    
    
    
    
    

    re. 67 
    
    >>  Does bias = racism?  Are the media racially biased, or are they
    biased in favour of big-selling stories?  What, then, does that
    reflect?
    
    Maybe I should have specified -- the media is not biased.  The media is
    RACIALLY biased. And they are in favor of selling big stories, which in
    my opinion = racially biased stories.  See, society likes negativism.
    Negativism = big stories = money.
    
    >> How often is "often"?  More than half?
    
    Oh, most definitely more than half.  
    
    >> I happen to agree with Mike; the media in general goes out of their   
    way to *appear* unbiased, and not just from a racial perspective.   
    That's not quite the same thing as "denying that racism exists".    
    
    The media may not go around flinging racial slurs, but when you open
    your local paper or turn on your local news and there's a huge cover story
    about an African American male who shot and killed whoever, followed by
    a couple of lines saying  "oh yeah, John Doe (White male) stabbed Mr. X
    to death," that's subtle racism.  Did you happen to see the cover of
    the TIME issue that featured OJ Simpson?  They darkened and blurred
    his picture to make him appear more "Black" (read - intimidating)
    Subtle racism again. The worst part of all this is that people refuse
    to see it, or maybe they DO see it and just refuse to to acknowledge
    that it happens.  
    
    Amanda 
    f  
    

    
    .71, Amanda:
    
    We obviously patronize different media outlets, you and I.  Our biggest
    crime story recently was the rape/torture/murder of two white girls by a
    white male and his white wife.  I suspect that if the media gave black 
    crime a low profile, they'd be accused of ignoring blacks, and thus, of 
    being racist.
    
    Try voting with your wallet.   ;^)
    

    
    I didn't say that EVERY major crime story was about African Americans. 
    My point is that AAs get more negative coverage than any other race.
    
    
    

    
    .73, Amanda:

    >My point is that AAs get more negative coverage than any other race.
    
    Assuming for a moment that this is true...
    
    Go back and read .48 (which seems to have gone over like a lead 
    balloon), and then tell me: is the media racist, or simply reflecting
    systemic racism?  Or, reflecting the racism of its consumers?
    

    
    
    I live about 10 mile outside of DC.  The county in which I live is 60%
    black.  
    
    Amanda, I never denied that racism still exists, but it exists on both
    sides.  So I have said something (with regards to the media bending
    over backwards) and it has been seconded yet you keep denying that
    there's anything to it.  Perhaps everyone needs to listen to the other
    side of the story.
    
    
    Mike  

    >My point is that AAs get more negative coverage than any other race.
    
     I don't know about that.

    
      The problem with decrying negativism (a la Spiro d'Agnew) is that
     it is possible that negativism is correct.
     
      If we are going down the tubes, shouldn't it be reported ?
    
      bb

It is a true statement.

    
    
    That's why I've been saying that we need to focus on what we all have
    in common as human beings.  There are those who will try and divide
    people because it serves them best, it gives them power.  
    
    
    Mike

    Yes, we're all quadrupeds for example!

    
    | They darkened and blurred his picture to make him appear more "Black" 
    | (read - intimidating) Subtle racism again. The worst part of all this 
    | is that people refuse to see it, or maybe they DO see it and just 
    | refuse to to acknowledge that it happens.
     
    denial lives big-time on both sides of the racial tracks.  
    what you saw in time mag i've seen in various aa forums (tony brown's
    journal, jesse jackson's cnn program, a local program called
    "say brother".)  the only difference (and you might argue fairly
    that it is not insignificant) is that the big outlets are dominated
    by white establishment.  in so many ways the arguement then becomes
    not an arguement against racism but an arguement of not having equal
    access to the media to amplify black/white biases.  this is a pretty sad
    commentary on the state of race relations in this country.
                      
    

ZZ    WNPV01::GROSJEAN "Cheerfulness Makes You Healthy"   
    
    HALT!!!!  Who goes there.  Identify yourself!!!!!!

      Hi,
    
        Just to be very philosophical about it all.
    
        Conscious existence is some combination of perception and how
        we process that perception.  By beholding, we become changed.
    
        The average black beholds a lot more crap than the average 
        white.  The more crap one beholds, the more likely one is to
        be changed in negative ways.
    
        I believe that what is needed is for blacks to have the 
        oppurtunity to behold better things.
    
        I don't want to downplay material things, but if more people
        beheld others that truly loved them and if they could see it
        and know it and cherish it, you would see positive change.
    
        Love needs to be provided in tangible ways so that it can be  
        beheld so that positive changes can result in the hearts of
        the beholders.
    
    						Tony

My name is Gwendolyn Grosjean, I work in Digital's Washington, DC office.  I've
been with Digial for 10 years and have been reading (on rare occasions I enter
notes) since I've been here.  My favorite conference is QUOTES.

Rgds,

Gwen

    Hi Gwen:
    
    Glad to have you on board.  Please participate more often because I
    need more intellectual stimuli than I'm getting from these losers!
    
    Rgds.,
    
    -Jack

    
    Gwen,
    
    Stay away from Jack Martin; he's bad news.  I heard that he once
    shot a man just to watch him die.
    

    
    also ixnay on taking jack out to chinese restaurants.  
    

    
    ...or anywhere that Esperanto is spoken.
    

    
    Gwen,
    
    You have a great name. Just thought I'd mention it in case
    you've never realized it.
    
    -b

    
    Three cheers for Gwen!
    
    Hip hip...
    

| <<< Note 563.75 by GRANPA::MWANNEMACHER "NRA fighting for our RIGHTS" >>>


| I live about 10 mile outside of DC.  


	And we have never seen you on tv waving a gun towards the White House?
Well I declare! :-)

| <<< Note 563.86 by TROOA::COLLINS "Cyberian Puppy" >>>


| Stay away from Jack Martin; he's bad news. I heard that he once shot a man 
| just to watch him die.

	But I lived..... ;-)

    See what I'm dealing with Gwen....mental midgets!!!!!  All of them!

    
    .93
    
    Goo goo...gaa gaa...
    

    Okay...I deserved that!

    
    	Jack:
    
    	What, pray tell, would you even DO with intellectual stimuli,
    	if you could even identify it in the 1st place?
    

    run in fear from it

    
    Maybe he'd get an intellectual woody?
    

    Maybe I'd get a...

    Intellectual Snarf!

    Black americans and Incarceration people.....Black Americans and
    Incarceration ?
    
    Peter

    
    Who is this Peter Levine?  Seems like a lot of read-onlys are
    coming out of the woodwork lately!
    
    ;^)
    

 ZZ   CSLALL::PLEVINE                                       4 lines 
 ZZ   11-OCT-1995 15:05
    
    HALT....Who goes there?  Identify yourself!

    
    	Jack, I believe Joan just DID that in the previous reply.
    
    	And heck, it's not like Peter signed his note or anything.
    

    I am a MORON with little time to write but thru the wonders of this
    here Windows thing i work on, i can read this wonderful conference and
    still be productive.
    My favorite boxer today is Lady Di and my favorite boxer of all time
    was the irrepressible character Platoe.
    Peter

    
    Oh no no no no no no Peter...Lady Di is MY favorite 'boxer.
    
    Yer gonna hafta git yerself another fave, I'm afraid.
    
    :^)
    

Lady Di is a boxer?  I thought she was more refined -- perhaps a croquet
player.  BTW, to the best of my knowledge, she's neither a Black American
nor incarcerated.

    
    Is she an Asian-American on probation?
    

       
       Intoxicated?

    
    Inundated?
    

With a name like DesMaisons, she must be a Franco-American under house arrest.

    
    Zut alors!  Allons-y, chez Di!
    

    Chef Boyardee! 

    J'ai besion de manger mes cahiers d'exercise avec les pieds dans le n�.

    Glenn's been drinking again!

    
    <--- Oh YEAH?  What's YOUR excuse?
    

    
    	Gerald, while you were gone, di volunteered to pummel me 
    	in the general vacinity of my forehead.  She promised to proceed
    	in a ladylike fashion, but I do believe this would qualify her
    	as a 'boxer.
    
    	Karen
    

I remember a NY Times article I read this year, which I thought of extracting
and posting for general edification, but didn't get around to it.

It was a small bulletin in one of their news wrap-up columns entitled
"2-million strikes and..." (a play on the 3 strikes guideline in effect)

As I recall the article told of a man who embezzeled/defrauded a
telecommunications company in excess of 2 million dollars, and wound up as a
consultant to them to prevent similar thefts.

Sometimes it ain't what you do, but how you do it.

    
    
    
    Depends on how you look at it, Brandon.  Perhaps the person has no
    trouble living with themselves, people with a conscious would.  He'll
    have to answer for his actions one day, I truely believe.
    
    Mike
    
    

    >J'ai besion de manger mes cahiers d'exercise avec les pieds dans le n�.
    
     besoin. 

    Jes.

re:.119 (Mike)

The point was punishment is not meted fairly and in fact crime does pay in
certain segments of this society.

    
    re: .122
    
    >The point was punishment is not meted fairly
    
    Would any of these people have to worry about "punishment" or
    incarceration if no crime were committed?
    

>The point was punishment is not meted fairly and in fact crime does pay in
>certain segments of this society.
    
    So, keeping with the topic, what evidence do you have as to the role
    the race of the perpetrator played in his punishment?

       re .123:
       
       > Would any of these people have to worry about "punishment" or
       > incarceration if no crime were committed?
       
       A black man who commits a crime is more likely to be caught than a
       white man who commits the same crime.  A black man convicted of a
       crime is more likely to serve jail time than a white man who
       commits the same crime. A white man serving jail time is more
       likely to be paroled than a black man serving jail time for the
       same crime. 
       
       In a perfect world, no crimes would be committed, no one would
       have to be incarcerated, no one would have to be paroled.
       
       In a perfect world, no one would harbor prejudices, and justice
       would be meted out without regard to color.
       
       If you commit crimes, you can make the world a little bit better
       be resolving not to commit crimes any more.  If you harbor any
       prejudices, consciously or unconsciously, you can make the world a
       little better by recognizing the prejudices and resolving to
       renounce them.

    
    Don, I dare you to have a coffee in the 21st century.
    

    
    re: .125
    
    Your subtle innuendos non-withstanding, the point still stands, albeit
    not a perfect one...
    
     If the principAls (black or white) did not commit the crimes, there 
    wouldn't be an uproar now, would there?

    .125
    
    >A black man who commits a crime is more likely to be caught than a
           white man who commits the same crime.
    
    This seems to be an impossible statistic to support...or at least it
    does to me.

    It's not a statistic, it's an assertion. You are free to accept or
    reject it as is your wont.

       re .128:
       
       This came from a report that gave two primary sources for its
       conclusions: the first was the number of people who had used drugs
       over the past n years (segregated by race) compared to the number
       of people who had been convicted of drug possession (also by
       race), and the second was the number of subsequent arrests and
       convictions for crimes in which the perpetrator's race identity was
       unknown but whose race was known. 
       
       I think I found the report on NandO within the past 2-3 weeks, but
       I won't guarantee it.

    
    Andy, the point you appear to be trying to make is that if people
    didn't commit crimes, they wouldn't have to worry about the punishments.
    Which, although true, is a point akin to "If Napoleon had a B52...".
    
    The point of THIS discussion is that white criminals should not have 
    to worry about their punishment LESS than black criminals.
    
    Is that so elusive a point?
    

    
    re: .131
    
    Why do you think it's elusive? 
    
    Why does it have to be such a pie-in-the-sky suggestion?
    
    When I was younger, there were people in the group that I associated
    with that went out of their way to look for trouble. Many of us didn't
    and didn't have to worry too much (us included more than a few blacks
    and Puerto Ricans).
    
     Let's take a closer look... take away the drug crimes (non-violent)
    from Topazs' stats and what do the numbers look like?
    

    
    Why do I think it's elusive?  Becuase you are obviously ignoring the
    issue being discussed.
    
    And why take the drug crimes out?  Incarceration is incarceration;
    at that point it matters little *why* you are there.  It matters
    very much *how long* you will be there, and if a white man gets a
    lighter sentence for the same crime...well...that's just not right.
    

     You do, however, have to exclude all of the factors which are used in
    determining sentencing- such as prior record, etc. I find that studies
    of this nature routinely fail to account for other factors which can
    and do influence the results, coming up with faulty conclusions as a
    result. This can frequently be quickly determined by examining the
    methods used by the researchers. Another factor which is interesting
    more often than not is the question of who funded the study- studies
    have been known to favor the funding source (to no one's surprise at
    all.) Beware of cancer studies funded by the tobacco industry. Etc. In
    other words, if you set out to prove something, you can usually find
    some way to do so, by slicing the data appropriately (or
    inappropriately, as the case may be.)
    
     Clearly, if the study Don cites can be taken at face value, then we
    need to determine why this is so in order to correct it.

    .130
    
    I understood the first part, but this line confuses me:
    
    >the second was the number of subsequent arrests and convictions for
    >crimes in which the perpetrator's race identity was unknown but whose
    >race was known.

    
    .134
    
    But of course, Mark.  
    
    Tell me, do you agree with Cressey as quoted in .48?
    

    
    re: .133
    
    > Why do I think it's elusive?  Becuase you are obviously ignoring the
    >issue being discussed.
    
    Maybe I'm not putting as much weight on the "issue" being discussed as
    others...
    
      That is my prerogative, is it not? Emphasizing a different "issue"
    does not mean one is being elusive...
    

    
    .137,
    
    So you don't want to talk about race as a factor in punishment?
    
    Oh, then you want topic 44.  :^)
    

    
    	Andy, it looks like the noters here want to discuss the symptom
    	[incarceration] instead of the problem [crime].
    
    	If you get rid of the cold you have, you don't have to worry a-
    	bout what kind of Kleenex to use to blow your nose.
    

    
    Shawn,
    
    The problem being discussed here is not crime, it is racism.
    

    
    	Well, if blacks AND whites decided not to commit any crimes,
    	then I guess this discussion wouldn't be able to continue, so
    	carry on [and watch your back].
    
    	8^)
    

    
    Shawn,
    
    Based on 406.107, I'd say YOU better watch your back!
    
    ;^)
    

    
    	Not if I see him 1st.
    
    	8^)
    

    	re:  Blacks more likely to get caught, and more likely to serve
    		jail time:
    
    	Is it a fair assumption that in general blacks are less educated
    	and less affluent than whites?
    
    	If so, then it is possible that the lower education level might
    	contribute to their relative inability to elude authorities, and
    	their lower economic status might contribute to their relative
    	inability to hire an aggressive legal defense.

    
    	Sounds like black prisoners should be given "Criminal Competency"
    	training while in prison, then.  Teach them how to better elude
    	authorities and the return rate will drop dramatically.
    

| <<< Note 563.142 by TROOA::COLLINS "Cyberian Puppy" >>>


| Based on 406.107, I'd say YOU better watch your back!

	I had to go check out that note incase you were talking about me... :-)

	Joe, what would be your answer to the question you asked in .144?



Glen

 you shouldn't answer a question with a question.





 Jim

	Jim, my answer would be to the question, no, it is not a fair
assumption.

    
    	Jim, Joe ... what's the difference??  8^)
    
    
    	But I have to disagree with Glen and say "Yes, it is a fair
    	assumption".
    

re:.124 

>So, keeping with the topic, what evidence do you have as to the role
>the race of the perpetrator played in his punishment?

Absolutely no evidence.

| <<< Note 563.150 by BUSY::SLABOUNTY "A seemingly endless time" >>>


| But I have to disagree with Glen and say "Yes, it is a fair assumption".


	Based on what, Shawn?????

    
    	Gut feel.  So sue me.
    

    
    TAKE IT TO TOPIC 99!!
    

    There's a gut feel topic?

    
    It only covers feeling the front side of guts.
    
    -b

    
    What's on the outside?
    

| <<< Note 563.153 by BUSY::SLABOUNTY "A seemingly endless time" >>>


| Gut feel.  

	Never tried that....

| So sue me.

	You're now Sue....

| <<< Note 563.157 by TROOA::COLLINS "Cyberian Puppy" >>>


| What's on the outside?

	one, two three, four.......

    Oh, way to beat a joke to death -b!
    
    
    IIIIIIIIIIIII like it!

    	.147
    
    	Actually, Glen, it's not an assumption at all.  Blacks are
    	statistically lower than whites in both education and wealth.
    
    	Since you say NO, I'll say YES.  :^)   (I would have said yes
    	whether you answered or not.)

    re: .160
    
     Touch�!
    
    re: Cressy
    
     I think the statistics he quotes are misleading in that one would
    conclude simply by reading them that race is the overarching issue in
    the criminal justice system. When one does further research, one finds
    that it's not so black and white (pardon the metaphor.)
    
     Blacks are statistically twice as likely to come from a home where no
    father is present. Such homes overall are far more likely to produce
    children that get into trouble with the law, regardless of race. In
    fact, one's economic stratum correlates more closely than race when it 
    comes to incarceration rates.

    .162
    
    So Doctah, you say:

    >...one's economic stratum correlates more closely than race when it 
    >comes to incarceration rates.
    
    
    ...and then, in .161 Joe says:
    
    	>Blacks are
    	>statistically lower than whites in both education and wealth.
    
    
    Hmmmmmmmm.
    

	Joan, what's even funnier is that the good doctahhhh had re'd note 160,
which was the one about Glenn and a bishop...... :-)


Glen

>	Joan, what's even funnier is that the good doctahhhh had re'd note 160,
>which was the one about Glenn and a bishop...... :-)
    
     What the hail you talkin' 'bout, boah? You in a messa trouble now.

uh oh......

Re: .48

Scores of criminologists agree that these statements are factual.
One can't be an "expert" in everything.  One must sometimes rely
on other experts for the truth; I take these statements as 
factual.  It's all summed up in two words:  institutional racism.  

>Scores of criminologists agree that these statements are factual.
    
    They can be factual without racism being the primary determinant.
    
    Who is this Cressey character, anyway? What's his angle? What are his
    politics? Is he the Henry Lee of criminology?
    
>One can't be an "expert" in everything.  One must sometimes rely
>on other experts for the truth; 
    
    Ok- so what are his credentials?
    
    Look- I am not denying the existence of institutional racism, but I
    think that ascribing each of those statements to predication on racism,
    I think, is unnecessarily simplistic. I believe that lifestyle choices
    play a large role, and that responsibility for those choices lies
    predominately with the people making the choices (which I know is a
    totally radical concept to some.) Furthermore, I believe that
    minorities which make different lifestyle choices defy the rules
    Cressey's statements imply. And no, I don't think that the OJ circus
    was representative of jurisprudence as a whole.

      re: .161
    
      There's different kinds of smarts.  I'm not sure scoring an A-
      in Botany 330 enables a person to be intellectually better equipped
      to elude police.
    
      There's street smarts and I'll bet a whole lot of blacks in some
      of these neighborhoods would be some of the best salesman around
      with maybe a little polishing.
    
      There's just a lot of different kinds of 'smarts' and I think we
      all know that any kind of test simply can't encompass the entire
      mix of what constitutes how much someone knows.
    
    						Tony

    >There's different kinds of smarts.  I'm not sure scoring an A-
    >in Botany 330 enables a person to be intellectually better
    >equipped to elude police.
    
     Don't be confused by "smarts" vs "education." There's a big difference
    between the two. What Joe was saying was that if you look at the
    average level of education of ethnic groups, you find that caucasians
    have, on average more education. That doesn't mean they are smarter per
    se, it means they've spent more time in a a classroom in their lives.

    The reinstitution of chain gangs is the best thing to hit the prison
    system in 30 years!

>Who is this Cressey character, anyway? What's his angle? What are his
>    politics?

I've never met the man.  Are you assuming that he's just another one of
those steenkin' liberals?   He happened to be quoted in a college textbook
on criminal law...kinda mainstream and apolitical.

>   Look- I am not denying the existence of institutional racism, but I
>    think that ascribing each of those statements to predication on racism,
>    I think, is unnecessarily simplistic.

I drew the conclusion that those statements pointed to institutional racism,
not Cressey.  

>I believe that lifestyle choices
    play a large role, and that responsibility for those choices lies
    predominately with the people making the choices (which I know is a
    totally radical concept to some.)

This is only one example, but what conclusions do you draw from Michael
Moore's TV Nation segment in which a black, working, family man was detained
and questioned no less than 20 separate times by the police in DC?  He had
no record; he had never been in trouble with the law.  His wife
feared for him every time he left the house.  Moore plastered this man's
face on a billboard with the words "HE DIDN'T DO IT" and planted it in 
front of the local police station.  Hopefully, the cops got the message.

I'm all for personal responsibility; it's no radical concept to me.  Seems
this black guy was too.