Conference back40::soapbox

       No, he sent a reporter to the lower east side to buy some sleeves.

Michael Moore definitely held secret meetings with
the Black Caucus, of that I am sure.

    please lets start with a definition of slavery and then extrapilate
    that into the difference between that and working in a poorly paid
    job in a highly taxed country then tie it into the bibles view that
    slavery is ok as long as you treat your slave well (don't kill them)
    and let them go after 7 years.
    
    
    Brian V

    sorry I forgot the 7 year thing must then start a discussion about
    numerology in the bible...
    
    
    Brian V
    ; )
    

    

    	extrapolate

    
    HEY!  This topic was started to take the slavery discussion OUT of a
    thumper topic...DON'T bring up the bible HERE!!!!
    
    ;^)
    

    
    So what.
    

    .3
    
    
    Yet another example of someone trying to appear clever and boring the
    pants off everybody else.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    <--- Well, at least trying to appear clever is an exercise. Try it,
         we'll like it.

    re .8
    
    Thanks, you don't see too much of that in the box do you
    
    
    Brian V
    
    PS go through the list of topics in this conference and find out 
       what percentage of them got off topic / ratholed and just
       loaded with unrelated witty remarks
    

    
    > ...DON'T bring up the bible HERE!!!!
    
    Why not, it apears in just about every other topic at least once.
    

    Slavery, for Brian V., is the system in which one person owns another
    person outright.  No "have to let him go in seven years" restriction,
    no "have to treat him well" restriction.  He's your chattel and you can
    damned well do what you please to him, including being nice or letting
    him go.
    
    Anything else is not slavery.

    .12
    
    Why not? Many restrictions are placed on other property that we "own."

    
    A bad movie with a good line: "Espace to Eden" or somesuch,
    starring Rosie O'Donnel and Dan Akroyd.
    
    Rosie is at a kinky S&M resort. Her personal attendent tells
    her "I'm your slave, I'll do _anything_ for you." Her response
    was, "Good, paint my house."
    
    -b

    
    	"Exit to Eden"
    
    	Old joke, so-so delivery.
    
    
    	If I ever see that it'll be for Dana Delaney in leather.  Wow!!
    

    .13
    
    
    What restrictions are placed on the lawn chairs that you own?  How
    about your sofa?  Beds?  Microwave oven?  Dog?
    
    So maybe you have to buy rabies tags for your slaves, same as for a
    dog.  That doesn't alter the premise that you can buy or sell them at
    your pleasure, probably even paying sales tax as appropriate.  You can
    legally have a dog put down, hence you can legally have a slave put
    down; in many localities, you can even do the job yourself with a
    bullet to the brain out behind the barn.  (This was without question
    true of slavery as practiced in the US until the 13th Amendment.)

    
    <-------
    
    Prove it!!!

    .16
    
    Actually, I was thinking of the most restricted form of property -
    property (land.)
    
    You can't live on it unless you have a proper septic/waste system
    installed. You can't alter it without approval (no filling in
    wetlands.)  What you do with it can be restricted by the state
    (commercial vs residential zoning.) The number of people that can use
    it can be restricted (residency laws.) You pay taxes on it every year,
    whether you use it or not. There are many restrictions placed on land
    use. For what it's worth, I really can't think of anything comparable
    on microwaves, house plants, etc. Land was the only one I could come up
    with.

    Autos, boats, motorcycles, airplanes are all resticted and subject to
    use and or property taxes as well as access limitations.  

    Would it be OK if a person sold himself as a slave, feeling that it
    would be a good career move?

    
      And, as a matter of fact, the antebellum southern states did
     regulate what you could do with your slaves.
    
      bb

    
    Indentured servitude is arguably a form of slavery.  The owner of the
    indenture could sell or trade the servant at will.  The servant worked
    for keep only with no wage and in many cases none of the supposed craft
    training that should have come with the deal.  It was common practice
    for parents to sell their own children into indentured servitude rather
    than see them starve.  Courts did not recognize the right to self
    determination in cases like this, and usually enforced the indenture
    which could last up to seven years.
    
    Richard Oastler published a pamphlet in the early 1800's that showed
    how common this practice was in England. He recorded many instances of
    children under the age of 6 working 16 hour days in mills.  Deaths
    often resulted from kids falling asleep at the machines.
     
    The irony is that this form of slavery carried on after the slave
    trade was abolished, as it was seen as an accepted part of the business
    of learning a trade.
    
    Colin
    

    .20
    
    > Would it be OK if a person sold himself as a slave...?
    
    It was okay in ancient Rome.  More than one person did just that - some
    were paupers and figured, as you suggest, that it might be a good
    career move.  At least one other was a wealthy patrician who sold
    himself for the specific purpose of becoming a gladiator - at the time
    when he lived, all gladiators were slaves.

    re: .23
    
    Then I can't see any reason why unforced slavery shouldn't be legal.
    One could probably make an argument that if a person chooses to go into
    that line of work, that is deemed mutually beneficial for both slave
    and master, why should anyone else interfere or care?

    
    It sure would make for an odd letterhead...
    
    	J.B. Simple
    	Slave
    
    -b

    >It sure would make for an odd letterhead...
    
    >        J.B. Simple
    >        Slave
    
    Could a slave be a Sole-Proprietorship

       > Slavery is the system in which one person owns another person
       > outright.  
       
       For example, when Tom Yawkey bought Pumpsie Green.

    
    What about Love Slaves?  I've had some of those.
    
    
    
    
    OK, OK, I haven't really.  I've always wanted to, tho 8^o.

    
    	[Looks at ticket]
    
    	I have number 11 ... does that mean I'm next?
    

    
    > What about Love Slaves?  I've had some of those.
    > OK, OK, I haven't really.
    
    YOU LIE !   WHY DO YOU LIE ! ! ! 
    
    ;-)
    

    re: dan
    
     eunuchs don't count.

    Not only that, men who have had their naughty bits removed don't count
    either!

    
    Yer a pistol Glenn!!!
    

    {bang}
    
    Oh, did you mean in the biblical sense?
    
    ;^)

    I think he's a jaffa.
    
    
    CHARLEY

    I read a historical fiction novel called the Egyptian. One of the main
    characters was a slave. The master whipped his slave because he DID NOT
    steal from him. A slave that does not steal from their master is a lazy
    and perhaps UNtrustworthy slave. Me thinks the master just wanted to
    whip something and any reason will do. But still, whipping a slave
    because they refuse to steal has some interesting discussion potential.
    
    chris
    

    
    So, Jack Martin...how was `The Children Of Sudan'?  Any good?
    

    Didn't see it.  Was it on PBS?

    Ohhhh...The Book!  Never ordered it.  I figured hey, if you and Topes
    want to live in denial over the Slave trade in the Sudan, then books,
    articles from the NY Times, whatever isn't going to convince you
    otherwise.  
    
    No time to research it and not worth investing money to try and battle
    Topes denials!
    
    -Jack

    
    I used to drive a sudan; nice gas mileage but I needed more space,
    so I traded it in for a pickup truck.
    
    -b

    
    	Doesn't the truck give you a "couped up" feeling?
    

       More evidence that Jack Martin is a liar, using his own words:
       
       Note 557.41 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN on 10/25:
       
           Ohhhh...The Book!  Never ordered it.  
       
       
       Note 33.1072 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN on 10/3:
           
           I have just ordered a book called, "The Children of Sudan"
           which addresses this very issue.  
       
       
       Trapped by your own words, Jack.  Your own lies.  How you gonna
       backtrack from this one?
       
       What a fine example you set.
       
       Your pal,
       
       --Mr Topaz

    
    
    Seek help, Don, regarding your obsession with Jack.
    
    
    hth,
    
    your pal,
    
    Mike

    
    	Looks like he's got the Jack.
    

    Jack's got a spare.

    One of those polymer thingies?

yup

	Sad to say..... but this may be the highlight of my day..... watching
poor jack weasle out of this one...... :-(

    Topes:
    
    Liar...I wouldn't say that.  I would say it was more laziness than
    lying.  
    
    I realized trying to appease you would be like chasing after the wind.
    But just so I can get on the easy road...
    
    There are reports that the Sudan is practicing in the slave
    trade...particularly the trading of women and children.  These reports
    are documented in national papers and organizations like Amnesty
    International.
    
    If you choose to blanketly state this isn't so, then may you continue
    to wallow in potential ignorance and misinformation!
    
    -Jack

    
    re: .50
    
    >Sad to say..... but this may be the highlight of my day
    

    Hey Glen, at least I take a stand for something!

re: .53

So it's taking the stand that's important?  Not what you stand FOR?

Gimme a break.  Teddy Kennedy takes stands on things.  Is that all the matters?
\john

       
       Take care, Jack.
       
       And thanks for the new definition of `laziness'.

    Whatever.  
    
    Sorry to all that I tried to bring up a subject of interest without
    making attempts to support my position.  I make no apologies that I
    stated what I said; but I do apologize for inadequate preparation.
    
    Topes, correct me if I'm wrong.  Your beef with me isn't so much I
    suggested the slave trade exists in the Sudan.  Your beef with me is my
    indictment that this was a form of religious or ethnic cleansing
    against non moslems.  Is that correct?

       re .56:
       
       You're wrong, and I'm not going to re-explain that which has be
       explained and re-explained leventy-sevens times.  No doubt you'll
       be in a snit, Jack, but everyone else will be pleased.
       
       By the way, Jack, it would help a great deal if you could
       indicate on your notes when you're being `lazy' (that is, in
       JackSpeak, when you're trying to deceive us) and when you're not.  
       
       --Mr Topaz

    Topes, I find your accusation of deception offensive.  I already
    explained I heard about this through a 1.5 hour segment on the David
    Brudnoy show.  He had a guest from Amnesty International and produced
    alot of written documentation on the slave trade from National
    papers...The Washington Post and the New York Times to be exact.
    
    Deception implies fabrication.  I've demonstrated I didn't fabricate.
    It seems your sensitivity toward diversity is blinding your sense of
    reality and I would advise you to wake up.
    
    Dinner's at 8:00 by the way.  Bring the chips.
    
    -Jack

       It's neither an accusation nor an opinion that you deceived us,
       Jack; it's an indisputable fact, based on your own words:
       
       Note 557.41 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN on 10/25:
       
           Ohhhh...The Book!  Never ordered it.  
       
       
       Note 33.1072 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN on 10/3:
           
           I have just ordered a book called, "The Children of Sudan"
           which addresses this very issue.  
       
       Oh, BTW, your comments elsewhere about Buchanan are another
       mistruth.  For more info, look elsewhere in this conference, or
       ask that wild-eyed lib'ral Wm Buckley.
       
       Toodles.

| <<< Note 557.53 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>

| Hey Glen, at least I take a stand for something!

	Lying? :-)  Jack, he has you nailed. If you state you ordered
something, that is past tense. If later on you say you never ordered the item,
then your first statement is false, isn't it? How can that be laziness when you
had stated you ordered it?


Glen

| <<< Note 557.54 by ALPHAZ::HARNEY "John A Harney" >>>


| Teddy Kennedy takes stands on things.  

	I hear he doesn't stand for bridges. 

    Don:
    
    At this time, I would like to take this opportunity to apologize for 
    lying to you.  A deal is a deal and I did say I was going to get the
    book, but chose for whatever reason not to.  
    
    Do you accept my apology??

    Don:
    
    Our notes crossed and that's no lie!

       re .62:
       
       I appreciate your humility and magnanimity, Jack, but let's clear
       up just one small nit, Jack, which defines the difference between
       a lie and a mistake:
       
       > I did say I was going to get the book, but chose for whatever
       > reason not to.  
       
       Not quite, Jack.  You didn't say, "I am going to order the book";
       you said, "I have ordered the book."  See the difference?
       
       Now, I could be nice and say I forgive you, Jack; or I could even
       say I forgive you on the condition you promise not to post
       anything and represent it as being factual unless it's true. 
       But I don't suffer fools gladly and probably wouldn't mean it.

    That's okay Topes, I fulfilled what I needed to do as a fellow human
    and now the ball has been in your court...and you made your choice.
    

       
       Guess there won't be any notes from CALLME::MR_NICE_GUY.

    Keep in mind that I make no apologies for stating the context of the
    discussion.  I believe this issue is something that needs to be
    addressed and I believe it is being poo poo'd, similar to what you seem
    to be doing.  I do make apologies for claiming to follow through and
    not doing so.  I make apologies for claiming to have ordered the book
    and not done so.  
    
    Re: Mr._Nice_Guy....whatever.

    
    Topes...
    
    He made the apology...
    
    If you're gonna sit there and dissect and try to toss it back at him
    because you'll possibly lose an easy "target" then it's your loss...
    
    He made the gesture, you suffering him non-withstanding.... It makes
    you look somewhat foolish for not accepting it. 
    

    ZZ       Oh, BTW, your comments elsewhere about Buchanan are another
    ZZ       mistruth.  For more info, look elsewhere in this conference, or
    ZZ       ask that wild-eyed lib'ral Wm Buckley.
    
    I put in the "Things to Wonder About" topic and therefore ask you to
    please refrain from inferring I lied.
    
    Using your logic, you calling me a liar MAKES YOU a liar!
    
    The words came from Buchanan himself as he was interviewed on WBZ.
    
    -Jack

	Jack, very nice apology. 

    
    > wild-eyed lib'ral Wm Buckley
    
    OH NO !  I actually agree with donny for once !
    Suddenly I don't feel so well....  :-P
    

    I was looking in my dictionary for the correct spelling of a word (lest
    the grammar police swoop down upon me!) and found this gem.  Expressed
    my sentiments perfectly...
    
    The American Heritage Dictionary.
    
    Topaz - (To-paz) A hard mineral consisting largely of aluminum silicate 
            and valued as a gem.
    
    Kind of like Evita (Hillary).
    
    -Jack

Z    LONDON (Nov 3, 1995 - 20:12 EST) -- A British charity working in Sudan
Z    is
Z    buying back Christian slaves kidnapped by Arab militias and forced to
Z    become Muslims.
    
    Thank you John, for doing my work for me!
    
    -Jack

      <<< TURRIS::DISK$NOTES_PACK2:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES-V5.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
================================================================================
Note 37.4031        "In the News" (clips only, no discussion)       4031 of 4032
IJSAPL::VISSERS "Dutch Comfort"                      79 lines  10-NOV-1995 10:04
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The costs of slavery in the Sudan


    (c) 1995 Copyright Nando.net
    (c) 1995 Associated Press

    LONDON (Nov 10, 1995 - 00:48 EST) -- For many families in southern
    Sudan, the price to ransom a loved one kidnapped into slavery is too
    high: It costs five cows. So, a Christian charity has stepped in to
    help meet the cost in one village.

    The Sudanese government denies allegations of slavery, but a U.N.
    report this week called it a growing problem of the decade-long civil
    war between the predominantly Arab and Muslim north and the Christian
    and animist south. More than 1.3 million people have been killed.

    Baroness Caroline Cox, a member of Britain's House of Lords, said
    Thursday that "tens of thousands" of southern Sudanese have been
    abducted in recent years by government-backed militias who sell them to
    northern Sudanese.

    The slaves -- mainly young women and children -- are often abused
    physically and sexually and are generally forced to follow Muslim
    rituals even if they are not Muslim, she said.

    Cox returned to London two weeks ago from her third trip this year to
    southern Sudan for the charity Christian Solidarity International. She
    met former slaves, families whose relatives are enslaved, and slave
    traders who agreed to free the slaves, bring them back from northern
    Sudan and sell them to their families.

    The price, which averages five cows, is hard to meet because the
    militias also burn houses and steal cattle so that families are left
    with no resources to buy back their loved ones, she said.

    Christian Solidarity is giving $10,000 to civil administrators in
    Nyamlell, in Bahr al-Ghazal province, which will buy enough cows to
    free approximately 22 slaves, she said. In a March 25 raid on the
    village, 80 men were killed and 282 women and children were abducted,
    she said.

    "If you're there and people are suffering, as these people are
    suffering, I don't think one can turn one's back and do nothing," Cox
    said.

    The main goal of the organization, she said, is to expose the Sudanese
    slave trade and hope for international pressure on the Khartoum regime
    to open the area to human rights monitors.

    This week's report to the U.N. General Assembly by special
    representative Gaspar Biro said there has been "an alarming increase in
    ... cases of slavery, servitude, slave trade and forced labor" since
    February 1994.

    Most reports came from Bahr al-Ghazal, about 500 miles southwest of
    Khartoum, and the Nuba Mountains about 400 miles northeast of the
    capital, the United Nations said.

    Mahmoud al-Koronky, spokesman at the Sudanese Embassy in London, called
    the slavery allegations "totally false, baseless and absurd" and said
    they reflect the views of rebels "who want to tarnish ... the
    reputation of the Sudanese government."

    Cox accused the Sudan government of using slave raids, conventional
    warfare and the denial of humanitarian aid "to transform the ethnically
    diverse country into an Islamic, Arab state, against the wishes of the
    vast majority of its black African population."

    A report on her visit cites numerous cases of slavery including
    6-year-old Joseph Atok who was captured in the March 25 raid on
    Nyamlell.

    His father, Joseph Bol said the boy has been located in the village of
    Abu Simson in the north, but he can't meet the demand for five cows.

    "I have nothing. My tukul (hut) was burned. Everything I had was
    taken," Bol was quoted as saying. "I have no hope of being able to buy
    my child's freedom."