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Conference back40::soapbox

Title:Soapbox. Just Soapbox.
Notice:No more new notes
Moderator:WAHOO::LEVESQUEONS
Created:Thu Nov 17 1994
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:862
Total number of notes:339684

498.0. "Flaws in reality" by CBHVAX::CBH (Lager Lout) Wed Jul 26 1995 16:01

Are the laws governing the existence of the Universe perfect?  There seem
to be a number of anomalies, such as one found by Turing, where if you
create a list of all the binary numbers from one to infinite, then draw
a diagonal line at some point, inverting every digit, and use this as
your number, it doesn't appear in the list.  A rather less technical one
is `why is a mirror image the wrong way round?'  I tried to fathom this
as a drunken student, and gave myself a headache.  So is reality flawed,
or are we just looking at it the wrong way?  Or did God put some deliberate
flaws in it to give us something to think about?

Chris.
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
498.1NETCAD::WOODFORDCan't come too soon!Wed Jul 26 1995 16:044
    
    
    no
    
498.2CSOA1::LEECHDia do bheatha.Wed Jul 26 1995 16:204
    Perception is flawed, reality is what it is, though no one sees it in
    precisely the same way.
    
    NNTTM.
498.4NETCAD::WOODFORDCan't come too soon!Wed Jul 26 1995 17:284
    
    
    No.  It exists because I wish it to exist.  :*)
    
498.5CBHVAX::CBHLager LoutWed Jul 26 1995 17:295
>It exists because I wish it to exist.  :*)
    
then you have a deranged imagination!

Chris.
498.6DEVLPR::DKILLORANIt ain't easy, bein' sleezy!Wed Jul 26 1995 17:325
    
    Chris, you don't know the HALF of it !
    
    :-)
    Dan
498.7SMURF::BINDERNight's candles are burnt out.Wed Jul 26 1995 17:593
    .4
    
    May I borrow the text from which you studied your solipsism?
498.8POLAR::RICHARDSONPrepositional MasochistWed Jul 26 1995 18:021
    I'm sure she wouldn't mind Oatster.
498.9SPSEG::COVINGTONWhen the going gets weird...Wed Jul 26 1995 18:086
    re: .0
    
    This sounds interesting (to me, at least) but I don't quite understand
    it...
    
    sounds like a picture would help.
498.10CBHVAX::CBHLager LoutWed Jul 26 1995 18:229
>    This sounds interesting (to me, at least) but I don't quite understand
>    it...
>    
>    sounds like a picture would help.

I found it in a PC magazine... I'll post the article tomorrow (if I can
find it, that is!)

Chris.
498.11TROOA::COLLINSCareful! That sponge has corners!Wed Jul 26 1995 22:363
    
    What's all this I hear about "flossing real tea"?
    
498.12SPSEG::COVINGTONWhen the going gets weird...Wed Jul 26 1995 22:382
    Fake tea is no good for flossing...
    Them plastic leaves get stuck in between tooth and gum.
498.14MOLAR::DELBALSOI (spade) my (dogface)Wed Jul 26 1995 23:523
Tetley, Dan.


498.15POWDML::LAUERLittleChamber/PrepositionalPunishmentThu Jul 27 1995 00:104
    
    No no, Tetley _tea_, Jack.  Not Tetley _Dan_.
    
    
498.16MOLAR::DELBALSOI (spade) my (dogface)Thu Jul 27 1995 00:112
Yess'm

498.13DEVLPR::DKILLORANIt ain't easy, bein' sleezy!Thu Jul 27 1995 00:217
    
    What you need is Tetley Tea,.... you know
                            
    It's those tiny little tea leaves...
    
    Dan
    
498.17DEVLPR::DKILLORANIt ain't easy, bein' sleezy!Thu Jul 27 1995 00:222
    
    Thanks Jack !
498.18NETCAD::WOODFORDCan't come too soon!Thu Jul 27 1995 09:2113
    
    
    I'd love to let you borrow my studied text, but it's not written.
    I didn't want to write it for people that only exist in my mind.
    I'm the only reality.  You are all products of my vivid immagination. 
    You exist because I wish you to exist.
    
    
    
    
    :*)
    Terrie
    
498.19we are uncertainSMURF::WALTERSThu Jul 27 1995 09:327
    > Are the laws governing the existence of the Universe perfect?
    
    Can't be.  Schroedinger's cat says so.  At least, it would if it were
    alive.  No, wait it *is* alive.  Sorry - my mistake, it's dead.  Hang
    on..
    
    {repeat ad infinitum}
498.20And the world goes round and roundWREATH::SNIDERBecause that's the way it IS!Thu Jul 27 1995 10:265
    Seen in an index:
    
         Infinite loop
            See Infinite loop
    
498.21DEVLPR::DKILLORANIt ain't easy, bein' sleezy!Thu Jul 27 1995 10:4814
    
    > I'd love to let you borrow my studied text, but it's not written.
    > I didn't want to write it for people that only exist in my mind.
    > I'm the only reality.  You are all products of my vivid imagination. 
    > You exist because I wish you to exist.

    Really, great!  I've got a handful of people that we can remove from
    existence, thereby freeing up some memory for more of a different kind,
    say more Heather Locklears, Vanna Whites, Heather Locklears, Cindi
    Crawford, Heather Locklears, and of course ALL of the 'boxbabes,....
    Did I miss anyone...hhhhmmmm Heather Locklears

    :-)
    Dan
498.22POLAR::RICHARDSONPrepositional MasochistThu Jul 27 1995 10:491
    <---- 7.1 on the Hoover Scale.
498.23POWDML::CKELLYThe Proverbial Bad PennyThu Jul 27 1995 10:524
    he would have made a 10 had he substituted box babes for each
    Heather Locklear 
    
    ptui to you, Dan!  Debra-bite him!
498.24DEVLPR::DKILLORANIt ain&#039;t easy, bein&#039; sleezy!Thu Jul 27 1995 11:0210
    
    7.1 ?  Jeez I wasn't even trying!
    
    -----
    
    I'm sorry 'tine, it's just that Heather has this {ahem} affect on me...
    
    ;->
    Dan
    
498.25RUSURE::EDPAlways mount a scratch monkey.Thu Jul 27 1995 11:1438
    Re .0:
    
    What does an list of "all" binary numbers have to do with the universe? 
    There is no such thing in the universe, and there's no contradiction in
    that.  Cantor's diagonalization demonstrates a point of logic, not of
    reality:  You cannot, within the sense in which mathematical objects
    exist, have a countably infinite list of all binary numbers (including
    those that are infinitely long).
    
    The mirror question is also simple.  Mirrors do not reverse left-right. 
    Put an object in front of a vertical mirror and move it left, and its
    mirror-image will move left.  Move the object right, up, or down, and
    the mirror-image will similarly move right, up, or down -- no reversal.
    
    The mirror reverse front-back (a line through the plane of the mirror). 
    Move the object away from you (toward the mirror), and the mirror-image
    will move toward you, not away from you -- its motion is reversed. 
    Move the object toward you, and the image will move away.
    
    Why do people think left-right is reversed?  Think about how you see
    other people.  If you were suddenly able to step out of your body, what
    would you do to look at yourself?  You would turn around 180-degrees,
    and you would turn around a vertical axis.  A 180-degree turn reverses
    both left-right and front-back -- the left-side of the person you look
    at is on your right side, their right is on your left, and their back
    is further away from you in your front direction than their front is.
    
    In short, we are accustomed to seeing people with the left side on our
    right, and vice-versa.  When you look in the mirror, you do NOT see
    this; you see your image with its left on your left, and its right on
    your right.  That's the reverse of what you are accustomed to.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To find PGP, read note 2688.4 in Humane::IBMPC_Shareware.
498.26POLAR::RICHARDSONPrepositional MasochistThu Jul 27 1995 12:221
    Yes, and the zits spurt forward too.
498.27SUBPAC::SADINWe the people?Thu Jul 27 1995 12:378
    
    
    	re: .26
    
    	you can become quite proficient at directing their spurting if you
    practice enuff....
    
    
498.28MKOTS3::RAUHI survived the Cruel SpaThu Jul 27 1995 12:403
    best Rev. Jim
    
    aaaaaahhh.... WooooW! What a though.... Aaaaahhhhh.... 
498.29DASHER::RALSTONcantwejustbenicetoeachother?:)Thu Jul 27 1995 12:528
    Regarding mirrors:
    
    How come, when looking into a mirror, I can see in all directions what
    is around me, even though these things may not be in direct line to the
    flat mirror? Light moves in straight lines correct? Well, at least in
    that short of a distance. 
    
    ...Tom
498.30NASAU::GUILLERMOBut the world still goes round and roundThu Jul 27 1995 13:255
re:.20

Hey! Hey! Hey!

Where's the (tm) ????
498.31KAOFS::B_VANVALKENBThu Jul 27 1995 17:0110
    The universe is a confusing ...chaotic .... mixed up random mess
    
    this conference ... topic is but 1 proof of that
    
    but that's the way I like it.
    
    
    
    Brian V
    
498.32MPGS::MARKEYThe bottom end of Liquid SanctuaryThu Jul 27 1995 17:537
    
    reality, is in fact, an ever-changing thing. unfortunately,
    pointing this out to some people brings accusations of
    "relativism". the only "flaw" in reality is expecting too
    much of it.

    -b
498.33POLAR::RICHARDSONPrepositional MasochistThu Jul 27 1995 17:551
I got relatives.
498.34POWDML::LAUERLittleChamber/PrepositionalPunishmentThu Jul 27 1995 18:044
    
    Oh, brother.
    
    
498.35POLAR::RICHARDSONPrepositional MasochistThu Jul 27 1995 18:081
Mum's the word.
498.36floored logicSMURF::WALTERSThu Jul 27 1995 18:271
    If there were no floors in reality, we'd all fall into the basement.
498.37DASHER::RALSTONcantwejustbenicetoeachother?:)Thu Jul 27 1995 20:181
    you've definitely reached bottom!!
498.38POLAR::RICHARDSONPrepositional MasochistThu Jul 27 1995 22:092
    Well, he's got (er, has) a good foundation for a theory and perhaps the 
    framework for a thesis.
498.39�:�CSLALL::HENDERSONLearning to leanThu Jul 27 1995 23:1611

>    If there were no floors in reality, we'd all fall into the basement.


   But that's another story...




 Jim
498.40GIDDAY::BURTDPD (tm)Thu Jul 27 1995 23:498
Jim,

There's no need to descend to that level of comment!  

:^)


Chele
498.41DEVLPR::DKILLORANIt ain&#039;t easy, bein&#039; sleezy!Fri Jul 28 1995 00:006
    
    You guys (and of course Ms Deb) have given me a window into your
    beliefs.

    :-)
    Dan
498.42MOLAR::DELBALSOI (spade) my (dogface)Fri Jul 28 1995 00:024
I gotta get different glasses.

I thought that said "window into your briefs"...

498.43DEVLPR::DKILLORANIt ain&#039;t easy, bein&#039; sleezy!Fri Jul 28 1995 00:216
    
    WOOOOA !   HELLO !

    Gotta be more careful in my choice of wording !

    Dan
498.44STOWOA::JOLLIMOREOneWhiteDuck/0^10=nothing at allFri Jul 28 1995 09:242
	it's all relative.
	and where there's a will, there's a relative.
498.45MPGS::MARKEYThe bottom end of Liquid SanctuaryFri Jul 28 1995 13:179
    
    re: windows in dan's briefs
    
    i doubt the presence of windows would make mz. deb like
    them any better. doesn't kirby know that appropriate
    attire for the participants herein has been officially
    designated as "boxer shorts".
    
    -b
498.46NASAU::GUILLERMOBut the world still goes round and roundFri Jul 28 1995 14:393
re: Schroedinger's cat

That's out the box.
498.47NETCAD::WOODFORDIfStressWasFood,I&#039;dBeVERYfat!Fri Jul 28 1995 14:417
    
    
    
    Reality bites.  And the bites are getting bigger by
    the minute.  This is too much to handle today.  I'm
    leaving now.
    
498.48The law thats never broken.MIMS::WILBUR_DFri Jul 28 1995 16:1610
    
    
    
    		Trust in Gravity!
    
    	
    
    
    		It will never let you down.
    
498.49Definitive Infinity?CTUADM::MALONEAlways ObtuseFri Jul 28 1995 18:1221
    
    Now...if you were to have access to an infinite mirror which in turn
    reflected the image of the diagonally sectioned infinite number stream
    will you in fact have two missing numbers, or will one missing number
    negate it's own missing reflection?  In other words what is the effect
    of placing an infinite mirror into the equation which would reflect all
    things visible...as a matter of discussion, would you in fact be able
    to draw a diagonal line through the infinite number stream, as in order
    to have an infinite number stream visible, then some form of physical
    rule would have to be involked, thereby eliminating the possibility of
    the physical existance of the infinite number stream...and if by
    some trick of physics, you could catch an image of an infinite number
    stream, then what reflective image would you expect to see in an
    infinite mirror, assuming that two infinite entities could be contained
    within a finite physical medium for observation... Another point to
    consider, is if it is possible to hide something so that it cannot be
    seen in an infinite mirror, as it would seem that an infinite mirror
    would reflect all of space infinitely.
    
    
    Rod (burned out, buggered, and in need of Rum) 
498.50DASHER::RALSTONIdontlikeitsojuststopit!!Fri Jul 28 1995 18:201
    Yea, but do chickens have lips??
498.51Chicken lips...Mmmmmmm!CTUADM::MALONEAlways ObtuseFri Jul 28 1995 18:299
    <---- I don't think so, cause ya don't see no spicy or Cajun chicken
    lips in the frozen food section of yur local supermarket.
    
    
    
    
    
    Rod (It's rum time!)
    
498.52POLAR::RICHARDSONPrepositional MasochistFri Jul 28 1995 21:491
        They're also noticeably absent on appetizer menus.
498.53re .49 Chix may not have lips, but Rules may have shells...LJSRV2::KALIKOWHi-ho! Yow! I&#039;m surfing Arpanet!Fri Jul 28 1995 23:249
    .49> some form of physical rule would have to be involked
                                                         ^
    Can't make a logical omelet without involking some rules, eh...?
    
    Learn sumfing new every day, I guess... Thx!!
    
    |-{:-)
    
    
498.54MKOTS3::CASHMONa kind of human gom jabbarSat Jul 29 1995 21:407
    
    You've all been drinking, haven't you?
    
    
    
    Good.
    
498.55LJSRV2::KALIKOWHi-ho! Yow! I&#039;m surfing Arpanet!Sat Jul 29 1995 23:002
    One would like to think so.
    
498.56CBHVAX::CBHLager LoutSun Jul 30 1995 07:495
>    You've all been drinking, haven't you?

noooooooooooo.... honest!

Chris.
498.57DASHER::RALSTONIdontlikeitsojuststopit!!Mon Jul 31 1995 11:026
    >ya don't see no spicy or Cajun chicken lips in the frozen food section 
    >of yur local supermarket.
    
    That's cause they use them up making hotdogs!  :)
    
    ...Tom
498.58DEVLPR::DKILLORANIt ain&#039;t easy, bein&#039; sleezy!Mon Jul 31 1995 11:3511
    
    > >ya don't see no spicy or Cajun chicken lips in the frozen food section 
    > >of yur local supermarket.
    > 
    > That's cause they use them up making hotdogs!  :)

    No, no, no, you can not have chicken parts in "all beef sausages."  
    You don't have to have any beef, you just can't have any chicken or pork !

    :-)
    Dan
498.59:)DASHER::RALSTONIdontlikeitsojuststopit!!Mon Jul 31 1995 11:411
        
498.60Chicken Weenees anyone!CTUADM::MALONEAlways ObtuseMon Jul 31 1995 16:238
    If'n you all can't has chicken in all beef weenees, then can someone
    explain Baloney or...
    
    			....or.....
    
    	                   SPAM!
    
    Rod (mosly recovered again!)
498.61No one expects the Spammish repetition!COVERT::COVERTJohn R. CovertMon Jul 31 1995 16:255
Spam?

	http://sp1.berkeley.edu/findthespam.html

/john
498.62reality isPOLAR::WILSONCA dog is a womans best manMon Sep 25 1995 03:573
    You must have thought of this question whilst motoring at 90mp/h.
    
    
498.63COSME3::HEDLEYCLager LoutMon Sep 25 1995 06:563
give it a rest, for ****s sake.

Chris.
498.64was that the f word POLAR::WILSONCA dog is a womans best manMon Sep 25 1995 07:423
    dont get so uptight, i'm just a loser, my top speed is about 54 km/h,
    unless of course i'm going down hill.{:()
    
498.65COSME3::HEDLEYCLager LoutMon Sep 25 1995 07:545
>                           -< was that the f word  >-

yes - `futtock'.  I forgot how many letters it has.

Chris.
498.66WAHOO::LEVESQUEsunlight held together by waterMon Sep 25 1995 09:184
    >dont get so uptight, i'm just a loser, my top speed is about 54 km/h,
    >unless of course i'm going down hill.{:()
    
     Nowhere to go, eh?