Conference back40::soapbox

    	You'd think that map sellers would want to have dates on the map
    	so that people would be more likely to buy an up-to-date map.

re: basenote

Well, now you've done it, Bob. There go any chances I might have had
for getting any sleep tonight.

    I think it's a fantastic note. Full of factual and interesting
    information. Just the kind of subject I will use on Friday night
    in the Pub. Boy, just think of all the birds I could pull.
    
      "Ahhh yes, now there's your first mistake love, you should have got
    the 1979 edition not the 1976."  "Ohhh Martin... you're so in control,
    take me to bed now and bring the map too."   "Don't be silly pet, I 
    want to talk about me 1981 edition!"    "Ohhhh I won't be able to 
    control myself for much longer..."
    
    <guffaw>                            

Map sellers tell me that they don't want to put the dates on them because
if they did, people would know how out of date they are and not buy them.

What I would suggest you do is find the oldest significant change you can
think of and send the map back to them, telling them it's out of date by
four years, and demand a replacement up-to-date map or a refund.

Maps sold in the United States are TERRIBLE.

The mapmaking business is a mess.  I've met with Mr. Hammond, Jr., and
discussed this with him -- I showed him Japanese, German, French, and
British road atlases and asked him why we couldn't have maps like that.

He said that Americans just weren't interested in that level of detail.

So now you know the respect the people you're worried about have for
your complaints.

/john

    Ban Dateless Road Maps!

    let's start a dating agency for dateless roadmaps

> Maps sold in the United States are TERRIBLE.

I have to agree with this. I obtained a road atlas of Central Italy
from a colleague in one of the Italian offices. The atlas is more
closely allied with a coffee table book than a road map. Surprisingly
excellent quality.

    Could be worse. How about the couple who retired from it all. Took
    their life savings to buy a boat/small yaht. And used the world atlis
    to navigate themselves into the Bermutia(sp) triangle... Welp. At
    least, your on dry land, and if you do get lost, its not life and death
    as it is at sea. 
    
    Whats more. I agree with you. Even the local local maps you buy for a
    city like Manchester NH, has missing roads. Thats cause there have been
    major developments, and new neighborhoods installed around the city.
    And your looking for someone at such an such address. And the bloody
    street doesn't exist on that $2.00 map. I guess it all goes to show yha
    one thing. Maybe the problem is that address is above sea level then
    below sea legel.:)
    
    

   
    re: .0
    
    >It looks to me like the road map industry is acting in concert on this. 
    >That they have come up with a new way to fool the public. 
    
    Sounds like a conspiracy...
    
    al

   A trip of any significant length means a stop at AAA for a new set of maps,
perhaps a Trip-Tik and new Touring Guides.  That's what I pay them for. At
$2-$3/map, if I were to buy them, I get my membership fee back and then some.
I have a set of maps in each car and a set in the house for planning trips.

Al

    Anyone who goes to sea using a world atlas for navigation deserves what
    they get IMNSHO.  Navigational charts are not updated reissued very
    frequently either and can be off by significant amounts but they are
    better than the Hammond Atlas of the World.  They are also updated by
    notices to mariners published frequently by NOAA or other similar
    agencies.  BTW the Bermuda Triangle being dangerous is a myth.  I only
    saw Elvis once each time I sailed through and never ever saw a UFO or
    large sea monster.
    
    Brian

If you want detailed accurate street maps, see if there is a MAPSCO available
for your city.  They are expensive, but are published yearly and are very
accurate.

Bob

    .11 This was an article read some years ago in the Wall Street in
    reguards to 'Pirates' and drug trafficing in the 20th century. And
    there were accounts of people found dead at sea with bullet holes and a
    missing ship/boat/yaht. But, then again, I also would take a course in
    the game and get some sea experience locally before I set out to see
    the sea.:)
    
    

    Piracy on the high seas is greatly overstated.  It is usually someone
    stumbling onto a deal where the participants don't desire any
    witnesses.  The only recognized areas of pirate activity are the South 
    China Sea, and by the Government of New Zealand.  
    
    Brian

    There has been much in leu of the drug trafficing. But, this was a Wall
    Street article. And as Bullwinkle J. Moose says, "If its in print, it
    must be true!" 8^)
    
     

re .8:

>    Whats more. I agree with you. Even the local local maps you buy for a
>    city like Manchester NH, has missing roads. Thats cause there have been
>    major developments, and new neighborhoods installed around the city.

Supposedly (warning, urban legend alert!) mapmakers deliberately introduce
errors into their maps to catch those who violate their copyrights of the maps.
I have spotted errors in maps that seem unlikely to be simple mistakes.

What I want to know is, why the Ordenance Survey maps of the UK don't
include power stations etc on them; the excuse is national security,
but I think any invading force would be able to see a bloody great
nuclear power station without the aid of a map!

Chris.

DeLorme Atlases have tended to be of pretty good detail in the past - some
better than other. The quality varied as well - I recall NH atlases which
had mono-color and sparse naming to local roads/streets while the NYS atlas
was full color with topo contouring and all roadways labeled. DeLorme's
software seems to be of very high quality as well. Street Atlas USA is
probably THE definitive online reference that I'm aware of and Map-N-Go
produces routings that have AAA Trip-Tiks beat to hell 15 ways from Sunday.

While I'm generally impressed with Street Atlas USA, it is not without
significant problems, not the least of which is the price of portability.

Great Road in Acton (2A/119) is labelled "Elm Street".

The street Z-Man lives on in Providence is missing.

It shows a bridge in Dunsmuir, California, that hasn't been there for
thirty years.

Main thoroughfares built in Huntsville, Alabama, four years ago are
missing.

Supposedly they have a room full of people accepting corrections that
people mail in, but I suspect they'll only be producing a new version
every four or five years.

/john

    No map of Maine is complete without the correct location noted of 
    E. Bent Clam Hoe.  

>While I'm generally impressed with Street Atlas USA, it is not without
>significant problems
>Supposedly they have a room full of people accepting corrections that
>people mail in, but I suspect they'll only be producing a new version
>every four or five years.

This is true. Imagine my chagrin when, after purchasing Map-N-Go, I
determined within 10 minutes of installation, that you can neither
begin nor end a route in Mont Vernon. It consistently dumps you in
Wilton, 5 miles away. Reporting the problem got me a "We'll be sure
to inform you when you can purchase the update, but we can't guarantee
that this deficiency will be corrected."

    My wife always reads the map. So, what do I care about dates? We get
    lost no matter when the map was printed.   :)
    
    ...Tom

    .21
    
    Too bad about Map-n-Go.  It seems like a really neat program, but it
    has other problems besides not liking Mont Verson.  Last summer I used
    it on my brother's system to plan a trip to Madison, WI; Aurora, IL;
    Indianapolis, IN; and Archbold, OH.  It drew lovely trip-tik thingies,
    except that it conveniently LEFT OUT the two that would have covered
    Madison.

    	re .16
    
    	I was under the same impression.

    
    	State maps are pretty much useless, unless you're planning a
    	trip that doesn't involve leaving the major routes.  I have
    	a few "regional MA" books [Central/West/Metro] that seem to
    	be quite accurate from a street-to-street basis ... although
    	if I looked far enough I could [not] find some things.
    
    
    	RE: .16/.24
    
    	I think I remember seeing something about that in 1 of Brunvand's
    	books ... if I think of it I'll glance through the index and take
    	a look.
    
    
    	RE: COVERT
    
    	Isn't it amazing that out of the 2 or 3 things you happen to
    	verify [no matter what the medium is], you find a mistake [or
    	missing data]?  Bad luck, I guess.
    

    ....It's all in the hunt.  Grab your first available map (preferably
    autographed by Columbus), and head out on the open road.  I've been
    able to explore all sorts of areas up and down the West coast, that I
    would never have found, if I had not been following an out of date map.  Be
    adventurous, see America the way the Map makers envisioned...back
    roads, fire-lines, and stopping along to ask directions from the
    locals. Another great way to meet interesting people.
    
    
    Rod (I gotta collection of maps that would make Marco Polo proud!)

    
    Inaccurate maps might be a blessing.  If we lost all the routes to
    Philadelphia, the world would be better place...
    
      bb

I'd more hope we forgot the exit numbers for New Jersey...

    .29 I rather doubt that would be a good idea. Cause you might get lost
    on the Cross Bronx expressway..... and lets not forget Mad Maxx and the
    Road Warriors!:) I think they got the idea from that place. :)
    

National wire service story.

Washinton DC; heretofore simmering issue of outdated road maps finally
exploded in the open during the congressional joint committee hearings
on "Protecting and Saving Americans from themselves".
During a heated exchange, Democrats on the committee charged the 
Republicans for delibrately misleading the poor and middle class by
providing them with outdated maps. This startegy helps the rich
friends of Republicans to snap up the best vacation spots at hotels and 
resorts while poor and middle class americans are lost on the american 
hiways and biways and are unable to reach their destinations on time.
Congressman Bill Richardson of NM accused CA Governor Pete Wilson of
intentionaly placing thousands of these outdated maps at the illegal
border crsossing points from Mexico to confuse and mislead the illegals. 
In many cases, charged the congressman, these poor people already 
handicapped with language and their sense of geography, have ended up in 
States well well beyond thier intended destination of California. This must 
stop and stop quickly demanded the congressman as it victimises those who
are able to help themselves least and further aggrivated their already
stressful situation of having illegaly crsossed the border. It is inhumane.
Citing his recent trip to South Korea he stated that all illegals from
the North are welcomed by the South with open arms and financial help.
He demanded similar treatment for people coming from south to north America.

In response, Repubicans shot back at the Democrats that making this issue 
into a class war is hardly rational or justifiable and shows that Democrats
lack any substantive issue or agenda to offer. Republicans denied any
knowledge of the California situation. However, one Republican committe
member who wanted to remain anonymous conceeded that it is possible that
funds from welfare block grant may have been used to confuse and divert 
some of the illegals from California to other naboring States. But he 
disclaimed any direct knowledge of such diversion.

Four members of the committe viz, Charles Schumer and Charles Rangel (D/NY),
Kiwese Efume (D/MD) and Patricia Shroeder (D/CO) were so incensed with
the California revelation that they plan to engage White House to put an
immediate stop to distribution of outdated maps throughout the country.
Either Persident stands with us on this critical issue and represents the
poor and helpless or he stands to suffer politically. It is believed that
Jesse Jackson will lead a Rainbow Coliation march to Washington on 4th July
to show sympathy and stand side by side with victims of Outdated Map
Syndrome (OMP).

At todays White House press briefing, McCurray refused to reveal Presidents
views on this issue. According to him, on issues of such national importance
President gathers points of view from many sources before making a final
decision. It is likley that a blue ribbon commission headed by former 
President Jimmey Carter may be oppointed to study and make a recommendation. 

In a matter not directly related to this issue, there is a strong rumor 
circulating in DC that similar outdated maps of Yugoslavia were also shipped 
to UN Headquarters for disrtibution to UN ground forces now doing peacekeeing
duty in Bosnia. The map publishing company defended their position with a
statement that since border situation in former Yugoslavia fluctuates on a
daily basis they thought it best to use the old Yugoslavia maps pending
final resolution of the confilct. UN headqraters was closed today for
observance of "World Kite Flying Day" and could not be reached for comments.    
   

    
    	RE: Mike
    
    	I checked the 2 Brunvand books I have and didn't see anything
    	about the "deliberate error to catch thieves" story.
    
    	So apparently I made that up.
    

    >I'd more hope we forgot the exit numbers for New Jersey...
    
    Not that it belongs in this topic but this reminded me of a short
    dialog in the movie "Fletch Lives":
    
    Fletch:	I need a list of all the Toxic waste dumps in the US.
    
    Boss:	There are 11.
    
    Fletch:	Just give me the ones that aren't in New Jersey.
    
    Boss:	There's one! 
    
    Guess you had to be there.   :)
    
    ...Tom

    .26
    
    > ....It's all in the hunt.
    
    One of the most enjoyable ddiving vacations I ever took was through
    Connecticut, using a WPA guide.  For them as don't know, the WPA guides
    were compiled back in the '30s as part of FDR's keep-people-working
    agenda; the WPA was the Works Progress Administration, and it did
    yeoman service in capturing much information that would otherwise have
    been lost forever.
    
    So this WPA guide says drive along Route 9, it's a great scenic ride. 
    Well, Route 9 is a major limited-access highway these days.  But we got
    off onto the road the USED to be Route 9, and it's a fabulous little
    winding road that follows along the Conencticut River through some tiny
    towns teeming with real people.  Great, simply great.

    Do you know the way to San Jose?

El Lay is a great big freeway

Put a hundred down and buy a car.

    
    In a week or two they'll make you a star.

    I'll make you a star.

    
    Yeah, you're right.  That's why I stick to opera and art song and stay
    away from pop.

    Staying away from pop is a good idea.  Lots of calories unless of
    course it's diet and then you have to deal with the unknown effects of
    Nutra Sweet.  Water and juices are much better choices.

    
    I wouldn't stay away from Pop, if I had the option 8^/.