Conference back40::soapbox

I hate cyclists, especially the gits that cut me up and jump red lights
when I`m driving, then try to run my down at pedestrian crossings when
I finally reach my destination and become a pedestrian.

Chris.

    as a serious cyclist i cant agree with you more. we have to follow the
    rules of the road and also stay on the road.

    .1  I forgot to mention that you make a distinction between being a
    driver and a pedestrian. perhaps you should consider yourself a human
    being. what burns me about motorists is that they objectify everythting
    ouside of there cuddly little vehicles making it easier to justify
    hitting any moving thing that is perceived to be in there way.         
                            s 

> making it easier to justify
> hitting any moving thing that is perceived to be in there way.         

don`t remember justifying that one.  I`ve worn more than enough rubber
off my tyres having to skid to a stop to avoid some pillock (pedestrian,
cyclist, motorist, take your choice) who`s not looking where they`re
going.

What I don`t like is the self-righteous opinions of some cyclists, who
seem to think that they`re superior to motorists because they allegedly
care for the environment, and superior to pedestrians because they take
more care of their bodies.  I dislike the contempt that they have for
others, and the attitude that anyone else, whether they`re encased in
their `cuddly' (?!) steel box or not should get out of the way.

Chris.

    Since when is a bicyclist getting killed something else from a 
    motorist or a motorcyclist getting killed?   FOR THAT MATTER 
    ANYONE GETTING KILLED?   
    
    What makes you think that bicycles are seen any better that 
    motorcyclists?
    
    This is a 2-way street and hopefully everyone involved can
    be safe.

   What do I think of bicyclists?

   They scare me. I'm never sure what they are going to do, or how in control
they are. I can't get far enough away from them. I respect their right to be
there, but I'm terrified.

    True Story:

    I used to commute down a narrow road through California farm country. This
particular stretch was very popular with the cycling crowd. Auto traffic was
usually light. There was one spot where the road crested a small, but steep
hill and made a right hand turn on the east side. I had passed a number of
bikes so I figured there were more, but when I topped that hill at 25mph I
never expected one to be standing in the middle of my lane waiting for her
friends to catchup.  Of all the idiotic places she could have chosen... Lucky
for both of us there was no car coming the other way that day. I still get the
shivers just thinking about it... 

Al

    
    
    i think that sometimes some bicyclists (as well as motorcyclists)
    think that just because it is usually a rule of thumb for motorists to
    heed a little extra caution around them they take complete advantage of
    it and get cocky and a bit careless...sorta with the mentality that
    they can ride/do whereever/whatever they want because the motorist will
    be watching for them and would be at fault is something happens. 
    
    i also think a lot of pedestrians think this way, as well...
    
    that is not to say that all think that way...but i am sure some do.
    
    i, for one, almost always (when possible), give a little extra space
    when passing cyclists, motorized or otherwise...

    .7
    
    Another true story...
    
    I was driving up Cheyenne Caynon doing 20 mph
    and rounding a corner (I was in my lane going
    up hill...)
    
    Lo and behold here comes (downhill) an out of control
    bicyclist  (IN MY LANE).    If I wouldn't have
    dodged into his lane HE would have been 
    really been hurt bad.   
    
    He would have possibly be thrown into my windscreen 
    or over my car into a 40 foot ditch.  
    
    Now how about the rules of the road?   

    
    I am a cyclist.  And a pedestrian, too.  And I used to ride a motor-
    cycle.
    
    It seems to me that no-one has a lock on stupidity.  There are bad
    cyclists, pedestrians, motorists, and rollerbladers; and everytime
    one of those group screw up there are a parade of individuals trying
    to blame all traffic problems on that group.
    
    There's room for everyone, if they'd just obey the rules and exercise
    a little common sense.
    
    jc (a cyclist who owns a copy of the Highway Traffic Act, and knows
        what it says.   :^)
    

    Can't we all just be nice to each other? :)
    
    ...Tom

    Sure we can be nice to each other, but alot of this
    involves courtesy for others.    

    Funny that I saw this not today....
    
    On my way into work this morning (on my motorcycle). I was riding along
    with traffic, minding my own business.  Riding in the left lane, when
    this pinhead (can I say that in here) to my right pulls into my lane,
    without considering that fact that I was already there.  I slammed on
    my brakes, mannaged to keep it upright, not get run over by the guy
    behind me, lean on the horn, etc...
    
    But what REALLY torqued me off was that when we all came to a stop
    about 3 mins. later (stop and go traffic and all) the SOB didn't even
    say he was sorry!  I'm used to people trying to run me over, but they
    usually say their sorry, at least for appearances!  
    
    Oh well, at least the girl in the passengers seat look a little ashamed
    of the pinheads actions...
    
    I drive all sorts of wheeled vehicles, I currently have a sporty car,
    and full size pickup truck a motorcycle, and a bicycle.  Generally
    speaking I always assume the other guy has the right of way, he's
    stoned, drunk, uninsured, unlicenced, mentally difficient, and the son
    of the chief of police.  I'm usually right on most of the counts.
    
    Dan
    

    
    .13:
    
    I, too, had many close calls on my motorcycle which were not my fault.
    It got to the point where I just wouldn't drive it in the city; I
    actually felt safer on my bicycle.
    

And the big question of the day:
"If the world's spandex supply went poof, how many of 'em would continue to
ride?"

I gave up bicycling for exercise, cuz I have no decent wide open roads around
my abode to avoid death. Many folks in my area have no such aversion to
death.

    I am constantly amazed at the number of bicyclists that insist on
    riding on the wrong side of the road.  I am often tempted to stop when
    I see parents leading their younguns' on a ride in the neighborhood and
    inform them that they are teaching their kids the wrong rules of the
    road.  I will agree with the sentiments expressed about good and bad
    riders.  The bad ones give all of us a bad name.  On my motorcycle,
    ride as if I am invisible and motorists cannot see me.  It has saved me
    more than once when someone has decided they need not extend the same
    courtesy to me as they would another car.  
    
    Brian

    Bicycling on roads makes me nervous and I have done if for many years.
    Everytime I ride the asphalt, at least 1 encounter with a motorist has
    me shaking my head.  It seems the faster I ride, the more dangerous the
    encounters.  Motorists tend to under estimate the speed of a bicyclist
    or just don't see us.
    
    For some reason, the out-of-state plates seem to pull the most bonehead 
    manuevers.  Take that grey haired lady in her cadillac this past weekend. 
    I could have climbed on her car and reminded her of my whereabouts after 
    she pulled out in front of me on a steep hill.
    
    I now ride a mountain bike on the trails when they are not pure mud.
    Trail hazards are much more predictable.

    I had so much trouble on the pavement that I traded in my road bike for
    a mountain bike. Now I stay on the dirt, far enough away so that I can
    return the flip off jesture without having a disgruntled driver, bent
    on my demise, try to run me off the road.
    
    ...Tom

    Do rules vary from state to state?  When I was a kid growing up in
    PA we were taught to ride our bikes FACING the oncoming traffic.
    Now I notice most cyclists ride with their backs to traffic (although
    I also noticed many wear helmets with some sort of mirror so they
    can see traffic).
    
    I haven't witnessed any discourteous riders coming to/from work, but
    the back roads ARE narrow; I try to give them wide berth but that 
    can be a bit difficult when there is a cement truck in the other
    lane :-)
    
    

    I always was always taught that a bike is a vehicle and needs to be in the 
    right(as opposed to left, not correct :)) lane.
    
    ...TOm

    It's crazy to ride a bicycle facing traffic, unless you're riding it
    at pedestrian speeds. A car hitting a cyclist head on does so with a
    relative velocity of the sum of their speeds; from behind, it's the
    difference between their speeds. I'd rather not be hit at all, but
    if I'm hit I'd prefer to be hit with a differential velocity of
    10-15 miles an hour than 40-45... (Though I admit that I've been a
    much less frequent bicyclist since hitting sand at 20mph 5 years ago
    and spending the rest of the summer recovering from a cracked
    pelvis. Without my helmet I'd have been dead or vegetarian...)
    
    I don't ever recall hearing the recommendation that cyclists face
    traffic (though I've seen enough death-wishers doing it).

    Okay, Okay... I ride between 5k-6k miles every year on my bicycle.
    
    Single out one group driving vehicles isn't even worth talking about.
    All groups are riddled with total idiots.
    
    That said, one question... "When is the last time you read that a
    cyclist had run over a pedestrian killing him/her, run into a car
    killing the driver, etc... Let's face it folks, cyclists and motor-
    cyclists are way less durable in a collision with a car or truck.
    
    I almost had a jerk take me out Sunday by cutting in front of me
    when I was running at 35mph. He must've thought his fat butt was
    on the bike doing 3mph. Simple rule... treat everybody like they're
    clueless and you might (just might) live to collect your Social
    Security in one piece.
    
    Chip

Karen,

Yes, the rules do vary from state-to-state, just like the automobile rules
vary from state-to-state.

I do a lot of riding on sort-of divided highways with two or three lanes in
each directions, and the thing that drives me crazy the most is the people
who insist on passing me just inches from my handlbars when there are one
or two lanes next to them, with NOBODY in them.

Bob

    Relax folks, I didn't tell you how LONG ago I rode my bike in PA :-)
    When I was being taught to ride the bike and some of the "rules", it
    was made clear that we were facing traffic so that we would be aware
    of the position of the cars.
    
    This was long before the protective safety gear bikers today have
    available to them.  For the most part riding in the street/road
    wasn't a factor, we had plenty of sidewalks available as our first
    choice.
    
    
    

    
    I started to ride my bike alittle over a year ago. and I can still
    say "I hate bikes"  I espally hate the people who ride in packs.  
    They take over the whole rode and they don't even attempt to get over
    and get out of the cars way.
    
    I allwasy stay to the side of the road.  If I ride w/someone, we ride
    one behind the other (not side by side)
    
    When I hear a car comming, I stay very steady and I dont make any
    strange movements so I don't alarm the driver.   Most people 
    passing a bike are just a nervous of the bike as the bike is of the 
    car -- 
    
    Lou

    
    	You ride a bicycle WITH traffic ... IE, going the same way.
    
    	If not, you'd be running down all the pedestrians on the other
    	side of the road who are walking TOWARDS traffic.  8^)
    
    	And bicyclists are supposed to follow the same rules that auto-
    	mobiles do ... stop signs, turn signals, etc.  But living in a
    	small town like I do, I don't see too many cyclists following
    	the rules.
    

    .20 taught by whom? i don't believe riding with traffic varies
        from state to state (at least not for a l-o-n-g time).
    
        in fact, the first paved roads were oaved for bicycles (U.S.).
    
        yeah Bob, i love getting buzzed. so much in fact i'd like to
        buy them dinner (knuckle sandwich)...
    
        Chip

    As several people have said, bicyclists are supposed to ride on the
    right side of the road, with traffic.  This is specified by the Uniform
    Vehicle Code, a guideline document that is the basis of many states'
    traffic laws.  Bikes are to remain as far as practicable toward the
    right side of their lane, and otherwise are subject to all the same
    rights and responsibilities as motor vehicles except where specifically
    stated otherwise, as in their being prohibited from limited-access
    highways in most (but not all) states.
    
    There is a good safety reason for riding with traffic.  Consider that
    the average cyclist moves along at about 12 MPH (19 km/hr).  Suppose
    you're on a road with traffic that moves at 30 MPH (48 km/hr).  If
    you're traveling with traffic and are struck from behind, the closing
    speed was 18 MPH (29 km/hr).  If you're going against traffic and are
    struck, the closing speed was 42 MPH (67 km/hr).  The kinetic energy
    delivered to you in the latter accident is more than FIVE TIMES as
    great as in the former.

re: .29

>    traffic laws.  Bikes are to remain as far as practicable toward the
>    right side of their lane, and otherwise are subject to all the same

This is the part that bugs me.  It's all good and well to want cyclists
to avoid impeding the flow of traffic, but when I have to move towards the
center to avoid a hole in the road that a motorist wouldn't even feel, and
the motorist decides that is the time to pass within inches of my handlebars,
well, that's when I'll get hurt or killed, doing something that I by Texas
law, am explicitly allowed to do.

Someone a while back mentioned that they hated it when cyclists ride
'erradically' down the road.  Yes, weaving back and forth across the lane is
not only bad, but illegal.  However, they may be trying to obey the law
by staying as close to the right of the road except to avoid obstacles.  I
seem to have two choices; ride in the right side of the lane where the tire
tracks are, avoiding 95% of the obstructions in the road, holding a nice
straight line to allow motorists to pass, but break the law in the process,
or obey the law and look like I'm riding 'erradically' as I dodge the holes
in the road.

Bob

	too bad we're not set up like Amsterdam.  car, trams, bicycles,
	pedestrians - everybody seems to be flowing along in one liquid
	motion.  of course, that could just be an illusion after consuming
	good ale and what-not before noon. ;>

    i, too, was taught to ride against the traffice (as to see what is
    coming)...the last time i rode a bike, i rode it with the traffic and
    ended up in an accident (the car passed too close to me and scared the
    doo-doo outta me and i ended up flying off the bike over the handlebars
    and to the right...)...i prefer not to ride a bike.
    
    >>I almost had a jerk take me out Sunday by cutting in front of me
    >>when I was running at 35mph.
    
    you can run that fast!??!!????
    
    

    re; "running" at 35mph - I wish Raq. The term is used synonomous
        with cycling, boating, car racing, etc... I was on my bicycle.
    
    hey, what's traffice? hazardous and frozen stuff of some kind? :-)
    
    Chip

    .32
    
    > i, too, was taught to ride against the traffice (as to see what is
    > coming)
    
    When I was a kid, I was taught that way, too.  When I took driver's ed
    to get my license, I learned I'd been misinformed.  The Montana,
    Florida, Cow Hampster, and proably most other driver's manuals have it
    right.
    
    > the last time i rode a bike, i rode it with the traffic and
    > ended up in an accident (the car passed too close to me and scared the
    > doo-doo outta me...)
    
    That's what cyclists' rearview mirrors are for.  Clip one to your
    shades, and you can see the car before it sneaks up on you.
    
    But as for safety, chite happens.  I've a friend who was nearly killed
    in an accident - riding against traffic, he came around a blind curve
    at about 20 MPH, and the motorist didn't have time to react.  (That's
    the other factor in the closing- speed equation.)
    
    I was nearly killed in an accident when I was riding with traffic - a
    not-entirely-sober young man in a lowrider took me out and I spent 16
    days in hospital.  I ended up with a 25% permanent disability.  I was
    back up on the bike 2-1/2 months after I got out, riding on the right
    side as always.  The guy who was with me on the occasion of my accident
    was also clipped - he was not seriously injured, but it so scared him
    that to this day he will not ride on a busy street.

    Sigh, I was trying to avoid pinpointing EXACTLY how long ago I
    was taught to ride a bike (it was during this century) :-)  The
    ratio of cars to bike riders in Plymouth, PA. was verrry small.
    
    I think we're confusing the times here; the practices mentioned
    by many of you definitely make sense if light of the number of
    bikers and the number of vehicles on the road today.
    
    

    -1 don't feel bad. it was the mid-50's when i first hopped on
       a bike. with the traffic of course... :-)

    >   -1 don't feel bad. it was the mid-50's when i first hopped on
    >       a bike. with the traffic of course... :-)
    
     An afternoon in April, was it? :-)

    -1 yeah, yeah, that's it... thanks Doc...
    
    Chip

    
    
    	How come bicyclists, especially here in the US, ride in the
    	dark without any headlights? Where I come from, one standard
    	equipment is the old-fashion dynamo, which generated the energy
    	for a headlamp... y'know the real one, so that I can you in the
    	dark, not one of these pansy reflectors, if that. Usually there's
    	nothing!
    
    	It's rather ironic that a cyclist wears a helmet, sometimes with
    	a mounted rear view mirror, but no headlight or brake light
    	on the bike.
    
    	and don't tell me that's because they don't cycle in the dark,
    	because I've had enough close calls with them!

    	I knew two classmates in high school who collided on bikes at
    	night.  It was raining hard, and both were riding with their
    	heads down and pedaling as hard as they could to get home out
    	of the rain.  One was coming downhill on the left side of the
    	road, and the other going uphill on the right (and correct)
    	side of the road.  They hit head-on, and neither knew what hit
    	him.  A guy in a car came upon them sprawled unconscious and
    	bleeding in the road.  Both suffered severe head injuries.  One
    	needed major facial reconstruction.
    
    	Makes me shudder to think about it.

    
    .39:
    
    No, not an `American' thing, although maybe a `North American' thing.
    Here in Ontario, the law requires a headlight at night, under threat
    of a $90 fine.  Most cyclists don't bother, however.
    
    And I wouldn't even care...but if they'd wear something more visible
    than a black leather jacket, it shouldn't be a problem.
    
    They just don't seem to realize how invisible they are in that kind
    of situation.
    
    Not smart.
    
    jc
    

    it's SOME cyclist don't use lights at night, SOME. Got it?
    
    i happen to and so do the people i ride with.
    
    thanks for playing.
    
    Chip

    
    No, Chip, most.  In Toronto, anyway.
    
    Sorry.  I'm a cyclist, too, but I'm not overcome with blind loyalty
    for the bretheren.  Those that break the law or ride irresponsibly make
    things just that much more difficult for the rest of us.  
    
    I never ride at night without a light.  The $90 fine ain't worth it.
    
    jc
    

re: .39

Those that don't are idiots waiting for a personal demo of evolution in action.

Bob

    
    .44:
    
    You can always rely
    On the kindness of strangers
    To buck up your spirits
    And shield you from danger.
    
    Now here's a tip from Blanche
    You won't forget
    A stranger's just a friend
    You haven't met.
    

    I will second (or third?) the most cyclists do not.  Chip, you are a
    rare breed, in the upper stratosphere, in the class of cyclists called
    educated enthusiasts, the elite of the elite.  The rest of us are merely 
    the unwashed masses riding Murrays, Huffys and Western Auto Flyers with
    streamers and baseball cards in our spokes.  :-)
    
    Brian

    On a slightly different subject...
    
    As far as I can tell all modern motorcycles sold in the US have head
    lights that are always on (while the ignition is on).  I could be wrong 
    about this, but all the newer ones I've seen have 'em.
    
    Dan

    Federal regulations require m.c.s to have the lights come on when the
    ignition is switched on.  Happened in the 80's sometime.  No different
    from the Canadian cars these days.  
    
    Brian  

    Brian, why, ummm, thanks...  do you, uh wanna buy a rac(c)oon tail?
                                      
                                      :-)
    
    The guys I ride with, and the club I belong to don't tolerate and will
    not ride with these types. They're simply told that they are on their
    own. 
    
    Most of these cyclist (believe me) are people who are not cyclists.
    They are simply teens/adolescents/sometimes adults getting from one
    place to another, e.g. friend's houses, store, free clinic, etc...
    I wouldn't define them as cyclists just like I wouldn't define 
    Jon Bon Jovi as an entertainer (but it's his job anyway). Simply
    getting on a bike doesn't make you a cyclist. It simply means someone
    is on a bicycle.
    
    Wake up and smell the titanium, will ya... :-)
    
    Chip

    A raccoon tail???  Stylin'!!!! 

    
    Oh, Chip, I'm sorry.  When I said "most cyclists don't bother", I
    should have said "most persons who ride a bike at night don't bother".
    
    So...if a person is driving a car, is that person a motorist, or simply 
    someone who happens to be driving a car?
    

    <--- Are they wearing driving glasses, open backed gloves?  

    
    <----  A `CAT Diesel' baseball cap.
    

    Then they are just another Joe Bob behind the wheel of their 77' Chevy
    pick em up truck.  

    
    <----   Ahh.  Got it.   ;^)
    

    -1 perspective, man perspective! is one an artist simply because
       they can put brush to canvas? i think not my good man... :-)
    
       Chip

    
    I will try to be more precise in the future, Chip, but you are a
    demanding taskmaster.
    
    :^)
    

re: .46 and others.

Our bike club requires helmets on all rides and lights for all rides expected
to end after dark.  Sounds like common sense to me.

Bob

    yup Bob, this is selfish, but the last thing i want to have happen
    is have my ride interrupted because we all have to stop and put some
    Humpty Dumpty mutton-head's brains back in his cranial cavity because
    he didn't think his thinking ability was woth $30.00...
    
    Chip

	which apparently it wasn't

    
    A couple of companies now (BELL and another) have come out with
    full-face helmets.  They look hot and heavy, but I imagine they
    protect very well.
    
    I'll stick with my Garneau for now.
    

    Full face helmets for bicycles ?
    
    Dan

    those full face jobbies are for mountain bike down-hill kamakazi
    runs... ever see one? wild and lots of crashes. the nationals are
    held at mt. snow vt. every year...
    
    Chip

    oh ya, some BMX'ers use 'em too...
    
    Chip

    
    I do some o' that offroad downhill stuff, although not nearly as gonzo
    as the dudes you describe.  Nothing that would require a full-face;
    I don't have the nerve.  I think about it too much.
    

    me too, but just the regular woodsie stuff... although i have had
    my mountain bike up to 40mph down mile hill road at mt. wachusett.
    
    between the hummin' tires and the twitchy handling i can honestly
    say i was uncomfortable. now 55mph with my merlin road bike, ahhhh.
    pure excitement!
    
    Chip

    I'm not against helmets. I always wear one when I ride. But it seems to
    me that kids weren't getting their heads crushed, when I was a kid, and
    helmets were unheard of. Could be a conspiracy started by Bell!!  :)
    
    ...Tom

    
    	More cars on the road means more of a chance of one of them hit-
    	ting a cyclist.
    
    	And more cyclists means more of a chance of being hit by one of
    	the cars.
    

    
    
    chip,  ya know, you are really starting to grate on my last nerve...
    
    
    :>
    
    

    ummm, uhh, sorry, Raq. can i loan you a couple?  :-)
    
    Chip

    
    
    well, i have always heard that you have a whole lot of nerve...can ya
    spare one or two???
    
    %^>
    
    
    -raq
    

    -1 they're in the mail! :-)
    
       Chip

    I'm sorry, but cyclists act like they own the freakin road!  I had this
    kamakazi cyclist drive out in front of my speeding bronco just
    yesterday cuz they wanted to bang a u-ey -- idiots!
    
    I'm a motorcyclist, so I know how to treat drivers in larger vehicles
    with respect, and to watch out for my OWN butt.  Cyclists don't seem
    to have this attitude at all -- more like "get out of my way, *I'm*
    on the road"
    
    If they get hit, I hate to say it, but they probably cuased the damn
    accident in the first place.

    
    <------
    
    > I'm sorry, but cyclists act like they own the freakin road!
                    ^
                    |__ some
    
    > Cyclists don't seem to have this attitude at all --
     ^
     |___ some
    
    
     NNTTM...
    
    

    
    Note 448.74

    I'm sorry, but motorists act like they own the freakin road!  I had this
    kamakazi motorist drive out in front of my bike just yesterday cuz they 
    wanted to bang a u-ey -- idiots!
    
    I'm a cyclist, so I know how to treat other road users with respect, and 
    to watch out for my OWN butt.  Motorists don't seem to have this attitude
    at all -- more like "get out of my way, *I'm* on the road"
    
    If they crash, I hate to say it, but they probably cuased the damn
    accident in the first place.
    

    re .74
    
    Don't worry about 'em man, what you're seeing is evolution in practice. 
    We as motorists are required to do everything in our power to prevent
    running them over (you know be kind to stupid animals etc...) but if we
    do we are just acting as evolutions tool !
    
    No problem !  Well, you way have to wash off the bumper and all, but
    the truck could probably use a cleaning with all the pollen and all!
    
    :-)
    Dan

    hey Andy, who is the ::BUCKLEY person anyway?
    
    clearly, someone who can't dissect some topic below the generic 
    broad brush level...
    
    never infer the "all" when you know it's not fact.
    
    Chip

    >hey Andy, who is the ::BUCKLEY person anyway?
    
     HURTIN::BUCKLEY is the guy who's intent on eclipsing bodybags for
    most efficient waster of bandwidth in the box.

    well Doctah, HURTIN::BUCKLEY is a descriptive node name, doncha
    think?
    
    Chip

    Yer catching on.

>                     <<< Note 448.74 by POWDML::BUCKLEY >>>
>    I'm a motorcyclist, so I know how to treat drivers in larger vehicles
>    with respect, and to watch out for my OWN butt.

I used to be, no time for it anymore... I rode conservatively, never had too
much trouble except for ****heads doing things deliberately, and morons who
never should have been given a driver's license in the first place.

Most riders I see ride the same way.  Even so, there's still the boy racers
who get on a motorcycle and think the laws of physics no longer apply to
them. LARGE OBJECT ---> <--- small object - Hmm, gee, I wonder which one will
win, and which one will go splat?

    -1 agreed... also they believe the laws of mortality do not exist
       either!
    
       Chip

I've always considered that `if it's bigger, it has right of way', which
has stopped me getting squelched by a juggernaut on a number of occasions.
Perhaps some cyclists would do well to adopt this philosophy... it makes
sense, as the heavier something is, the harder it is to steer around
something or stop.  The Highway Code should be interpreted with a measure
of common sense!

Chris.

    how 'bout this philosophy: cars are fast and big so they need space but
    have lots of time to get where they are going. Bicycles on the hand are
    small and slow so they need time ands not much space. This means
    cyclists should give cars room and cars should give cyclists time ie.
    SLOW DOWN A BIT!

    The law of tonnage works in cycling.  Mass wins every time.  Noone has
    more right to the road.  Cars on the other hand have the burden of
    looking out for cyclists.  They are overtaking, usually, and therefore
    must avoid the cyclist.  
    
    Brian

    
    	There is NO ROOM for common sense in the motor vehicle laws, so
    	it seems.  If someone pulls out in front of you and you hit them,
    	it's your fault.  Make sure the side of your vehicle gets hit, not
    	the front.
    
    	RE: Brian
    
    	The MA handbook says that the passee must not impede the passer.
    	So if I'm passing a cyclist and I hit him, it's gotta be his [or
    	more likely, her 8^)] fault for not getting out of my way.
    

    True, the passee must yield to the passer but the passer still has the
    burden of overtaking safely and not deceasing the passee :-).
    
    Brian

    
    	I don't know ... no "non-deceasing rule" that I know of.
    

    .87
    
    > If someone pulls out in front of you and you hit them,
    > it's your fault.
    
    Actually, the laws are usually interpreted so that the fault is
    assigned to the person who could last have avoided the accident. 
    Often, if someone pulls out in front of you and the accident team shows
    that you didn't have time to stop, the puller-outer gets nailed unless
    the investigation also shows that you weren't driving safely.
    
    re several
    
    In US law, there is exactly ONE thing that you can do with the right of
    way, and that is to yield it.  NEVER just assume that you can take it -
    you're just asking for trouble.

    one more important point, Brian. never assume that every motorist's
    parents AREN'T cousins or that brain acitivity is occurring :-)
    
    hope this helps...
    
    Chip

    A friend of mine got knocked off his bicycle whilst going to work.
    
    Pretty minor injuries - a few stiches in his top lip,but he was shook
    up for a while and his bike was damaged. He asked for 150 quid to mend
    his bike.
    
    3 months later and the car driver is denying everything and it is now
    going to court. Just goes to show,if your personally injured,get the
    rozzers involved.
    

>if your personally injured,get the rozzers involved.
    
why, so they can make sure you're properly injured?

Chris.

    er.. how much is 150 quid in U.S. dollars?

    depends

    
    
    We don't want to hear about yer diaper problems......

    Okay, about a buck 3.80.

    
    >er.. how much is 150 quid in U.S. dollars?
    
    
    	Alot!!  8^)
    

    >er.. how much is 150 quid in U.S. dollars?
    
        $240'ish    
        

    
    'bout a hunnert dollars.
    

As of noon today, �150 = $239.25

                            Date: June      12, 1995                            
                                                                                
                        FEDERAL RESERVE BANK OF NEW YORK                        
                                                                                
                           Value of Foreign Currencies                          
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------    
                                                                                
                                                 Noon Buying Rates for Cable    
                                                 Transfer in N.Y. Value in      
      Country                 Monetary Unit      Foreign Currency Units         
      -------                 -------------      ---------------------------    
    * Australia               Dollar                 0.7175                     
      Austria                 Schilling              9.8536                     
      Belgium                 Franc                 28.7500                     
      Brazil                  Real                   0.9190                     
      Canada                  Dollar                 1.3798                     
      China, P.R.             Yuan                   8.3208                     
      Denmark                 Krone                  5.4735                     
    * European Curr Unit      ECU                    1.3170                     
      Finland                 Markka                 4.3125                     
      France                  Franc                  4.9310                     
      Germany                 Mark                   1.4010                     
      Greece                  Drachma              226.3000                     
      Hong Kong               Dollar                 7.7340                     
      India                   Rupee                 31.4200                     
    * Ireland                 Pound                  1.6300                     
      Israel                  Shekel                 N/A                        
      Italy                   Lira                1660.7500                     
      Japan                   Yen                   83.9200                     
      Malaysia                Dollar                 2.4405                     
      Mexico                  Peso                   6.2900                     
      Netherlands             Guilder                1.5679                     
    * New Zealand             Dollar                 0.6675                     
      Norway                  Krone                  6.2390                     
      Philippines             Pesos                  N/A                        
      Portugal                Escudo               147.5200                     
      Singapore               Dollar                 1.3923                     
      South Africa            Rand                   3.6750                     
      South Korea             Won                  767.3000                     
      Spain                   Peseta               121.8900                     
      Sri Lanka               Rupee                 50.3000                     
      Sweden                  Krona                  7.2430                     
      Switzerland             Franc                  1.1545                     
      Taiwan                  N.T. Dollar           25.7300                     
      Thailand                Baht                  24.6400                     
    * United Kingdom          Pound                  1.5950                     
      Venezuela               Bolivar              170.0000                     
                                                                                
    * Value in U.S. Dollars                                                     
                                                                                
      The noon buying rates in New York for cable transfers payable in          
      foreign currencies are certified by the Federal Reserve Bank of           
      New York for customs purposes, as required by Section 522 of the          
      amended Tariff Act of 1930.  The information is based on data             
      collected by the federal Reserve Bank of New York from a sample           
      of market participants and is intended only for informational             
      purposes.  The data were obtained from sources believed to be             
      reliable but this bank does not guarantee their accuracy,                 
      completeness or correctness.                                              

    
    thanks John and Andy.  Big help Mr McBride. 8_)Ppppppppppp

    
    That's one heck of a nose you've got there, Mark.

    
    It appears someone has made long range reservations for a special table
    for two.
    
    It's hard to come up with words to describe the kind of humans who
    would ride off leaving an 80-something year old woman lying on
    a bike path.  How can you just ignore the agony of someone with
    a broken shoulder?
    
    								-mr. bill

>									The
>     city of Muenster is quite nice, too, with an absolutely amazing number
>     of students. On bikes. Kamikaze students on bikes. And I thought 
>     I was ready to face whatever might come my way, after having survived
>     the metropolitan jungle of Hamburg. And wrong I was. 

Cyclists, I hate 'em.  Only the other day I was almost run down by a
cyclist who thought he didn't have to stop at a pedestrian crossing.
This sort of thing happens all the time, some delinquent on a bike
with their self righteous `save the environment' attitude always seems
to expect everyone else to get the hell out of their way.  Well, I'm
fed up with it.  Next time a git on two wheels tries to skewer me,
perhaps I'll just hold out a fist rather than leap out of the way.

Cyclists always moan about car drivers, but their attitude toward
pedestrians is far, far worse.

Chris.

    let it out man. anger can be power. stand up for yourself. let people
    know what you think is right. i feel the raw power that drives your
    prose mr. lout. you're a good man. let yourself feel good. make
    yourself a prioirity. hit the damned bikers mr. lout. i'm with ya man.
    

    
    	We're not ALL bad.  Right, Chip?  Brian?
    

    ahh true, Shawn. many of us have that spoked halo revolving about our
    helmets.
    
    what our dear sweet sot-of-a-Chris isn't telling us was that he was in
    a ale-induced coma zig-zagging across both lanes of the street.
    
    but hey, i've never seen a pedestrian do something stupid either. have
    you Shawn or Brian? Not a motorist either.
    
    So Chris laddie boy, take the broad brush and...

    Bad to the bone Shawn, bad to the bone.  

    
    	Pedestrians think the world should stop as soon as they step off
    	the curbing.  As soon as that toe is in the crosswalk, everything
    	within 1/4 mile should instantly come to a stand-still while the
    	revered pedestrians take their sweet little time getting across
    	the street.
    
    	I was driving through Upton one day, and made the mistake of let-
    	ting a kid cross the street.  Now this is a 15- or 16-year old
    	kid, not a 3- or 4-year old kid.  By the time this kid got across
    	the street [put-put-put-put] I had a red light.  Amazing.  GTF out
    	of the way, seeing how I'm being so nice as to let you cross in
    	front of me.  Heck, I practically RUN across the street when I'm
    	allowed to cross in front of a car that stops for me.
    

    
    	Oh yeah??
    
    	What the heck are you doing using a zebra crossing?
    
    	Don't you think most motorists are able to distinguish you from
    	a zebra, and realize you're out of line?
    

    I don't think it's a black and white issue.

    Speaking of bicycle tragedies......
    
    I saw one waiting to happen last evening.  Idiot riding on the wrong
    side of the road, going the wrong way through the light at Qunisig. and
    Rt. 9.  I was turning right onto Qunisig. from Rt. 9 and what I believe
    to be a student, came blasting around the corner along the curb.  No
    helmet, no light, in the wrong lane.  Another 6 inches further to the
    right and I'd have a new hood ornament :-/.  

	Brian, I take it your car doesn't need a hood ornament.....

    At least not a new one Glen.  The golden flying horse with the blue 
    plastic wings that is there now would clash with shredded biker.  

it certainly would..... yeesh! can't have that!

    
    Not a tragedy, but this seemed to be the appropriate topic:
    
    `Bicycling' magazine's Top Ten Bike-Friendly Cities in North America!
    
    10. Vancouver, British Columbia
    
    9. Phoenix, Arizona
    
    8. Ottawa, Ontario
    
    7. Eugene, Oregon
    
    6. Denver, Colorado
    
    5. Seattle, Washington
    
    4. Madison, Wisconsin
    
    3. Tucson, Arizona
    
    2. Portland, Oregon
    
    ...and the Number One city is...
    
    1. Toronto, Ontario!
    
    WooHoo!  YES!!  Thank You VERY much!!!
    

    Tucson??????  Number three??????
    
    I lived there for sixteen years.  It's flat is all you can say for it
    (till the foothills, anyway).
    
    They have awards for the most bicyclists maimed and killed.  Extra
    points for hit and run.
    
    I guess they rated these cities on miles of bikes lanes.  They don't
    understand that in Tucson the bike lanes are to concentrate the bikes
    so that they are easier to hit.  They also increase the rate of
    bike/bike accidents.
    
    Atlanta and north Georgia are way, way, waaaaaaay more friendly to
    bikes.  "Bicycling" is out to lunch on that one.

    
    .121:
    
    Ummmm...well...they based it "on such diverse elements as":
    
    300 days/yr. of sunshine, flat grid system, available off-road riding,
    245 miles of bike lanes, high DoT spending, vibrant cycling community,
    and excellent air quality.
    
    They did list some drawbacks:
         
    Sticky summer asphalt and auto-promoting low-density layout.
    

    Excellent air quality? In the tires maybe.

    the grid work is a major negative for serious cyclist. i was in Tucson
    just about 2 years ago and would never, ever want to cycle there.

    Also, the "bike lanes" are shared with the city buses.  They used to be
    "bus lanes" until you could get more money for building "bike lanes".
    
    You ought to try "sharing" a lane with a bus or six on your way to
    work.  In all those years, the word "friendly" never crossed my mind...

    
    .125
        
    >You ought to try "sharing" a lane with a bus or six on your way to
    >work.
    
    Ummmm...I have.
    

    awwww, you have to stay ahead of buses anyway. if ya don't, the
    fumes will kill you if the bus doesn't crush you first!

    on the other hand, if you draft a bus you can cover a lot of ground
    before you actually pass out...