Conference back40::soapbox

    
    I hope I don't get any fine china as a wedding gift.
    
    I have no use for that fancy stuff.
    

    
    
    Bush kow-towed to them 6 years ago during/after the massacre...
    
    Clinton will do the same...
    
     That's politics... it inhales.... but that's politics...
    

 ZZ   Do you think US should take China's threat serious and yield to
 ZZ   their demand?
    
    No.  
    
    -Jack

     ZZ   Do you think US should take China's threat serious and yield to
     ZZ   their demand?
    
    "Billions for defense, but not a dime for tribute."
    Liberally misquoted, but the point is accurate.  We shall not bow to
    foreign powers!
    
    Dan

    
    <-----
    
    Wrong....
    
    Money talks... nobody walks...
    
    
     That always was and is the key here....

    Meanwhile, China is building 5 theme parks which are imitations of the
    US Six Flags chain of themed parks.
    
    i know, has nothing to do with .0, but is interesting nonetheless.

    I was refering to what I believe the correct answer should be.  With
    our current fearless leader, your guess is as good as mine as to what
    will happen.
    
    Dan

    
    theres that veto on the Security Council that make the PRC a player.
    
    also, theres the multi-billions of trade surplus they have with us.

    I think we should carpet bomb them.  A bit of 70ish style green shag
    should do the trick.

    So much misinformation, so little time (*sigh*).
    
    > My question is Communist China never rule even one minute on 
    > Taiwan.  And China and Taiwan are separate nations ever since 
    > from the beginning. 
    
    China ruled that island for centuries.  So, there was a civil war a few
    decades ago, and two surviving sides set up in geographically separated
    provinces of China.  Neither of the sides which survived the civil war
    ever ruled the other- yet both claimed to.  It is easy to understand
    that many of the people involved still see the separation as only
    temporary; much as was that of Germany.  They have only been separate
    for less than 50 years.
    
    > Why China has any say on what Taiwan is doing. This problem started
    > when president Carter decided to have foreign relationship with China
    > and signed agreement with China about Taiwan.
    
    Actually, Nixon opened relations with China.  He was doing many things;
    one of which was attempting to wrong-foot the Russians, which he did;
    one of which was bowing to a historical imperative of dealing with the
    most populous nation on the planet.  Relations with the ROC have been
    maintained at a lower level.  We have continued to sell top-tier
    fighters to Taiwan, for example.
    
    > I think President Clinton made the most sensible and reasonable
    > decision on allowing Lee for private visit.  In making the decision,
    > Cliton recognizes that Taiwan is an important trade partner and Taiwan
    > has the most democratic system and she observes human right, speech
    > freedom.
    
    Permitting this visit is our decision, and certainly not hostage to the
    whims of Chinese insecurity.
    
    > Do you think US should take China's threat serious and yield to their
    > demand?
    
    No, of course not.
    
    DougO

    
    You might want to ask the opinion of a native Taiwanese as to whether
    the two countries are separate. The native Taiwanese have a separate
    language and cultural identity compared to the mass of mainland Chinese
    that arrived during and after the civil war. Although historically
    ruled from China, Taiwan was simply taken over by the mainland Chinese
    nationalists (with the support, blessing and 1960 prototype guided
    missiles of the US). 

    > You might want to ask the opinion of a native Taiwanese as to whether
    > the two countries are separate.
    
    I don't take a position on that question directly.  I observe that
    there are a variety of positions, to counter Ru's assertion to the
    contrary.
    
    > The native Taiwanese have a separate language and cultural identity
    > compared to the mass of mainland Chinese that arrived during and after
    > the civil war.  Although historically ruled from China, Taiwan was 
    > simply taken over by the mainland Chinese nationalists ...
    
    Are you suggesting that the natives there were dispossessed by the KMT?
    Perhaps you should ask a native Taiwan islander, born there since 1948,
    of mainlander parents, about that.  
    
    That is to say, I already knew that Taiwan was ruled from the mainland,
    by empire, for centuries, by force.  In terms of the position that is
    appropriate for the rest of the world to take, it is to acknowledge
    that two chinas each claim to be legitimate, each claim interests over
    the other, and that each has a right to self determination recognized
    by the UN Charter (honored more in the breech than the observance, but
    still.)  We certainly don't find it in our interests to set ourselves
    up to offer a judgement on the question of how many Chinas there should
    be.  So we will keep our own counsel over who will be admitted within
    our borders and for what purposes.  We take note of China's discomfort
    with our sovereignty and we suggest they scratch their butt elsewhere.
    
    DougO

    breach

    
    > except the few natives.  
    
	Care to put some figures around that?
    
    > "official language"
    
    So why do you need an "official language" if there is only Chinese?
    

re .15

There are several dialects of Chinese with significantly different
spelling and pronunciation; this cannot be compared to the difference
between American and British English; the differences are much more
pronounced.  (For example, Peking vs. Beijing.)

Two of the more significant dialects are Cantonese (which the people
from Hong Kong speak) and Mandarin (which the people from Beijing
speak).

Mandarin is the official language.

/john

    How large of an armed force does Taiwan posess?  What threat do they
    actually pose against mainland China besides a political ideology that
    is different from that of the communist regime?  What happened to the
    native formosans when the influx of chinese arrived?
    
    Brian

>    Taiwan was not taken over by mainland Chinese.  Taiwan belong to
>    China from the beginning,  and all Taiwanese migrated from China
>    except the few natives.  Taiwan people speak one dialect of southern
>    China.  And the official language is the same as Chinese.  The culture
>    has no major difference.

My understanding is that this is the official line of the Taiwan government.
Those who lived on Taiwan before the Nationalists fled from the mainland
disagree.  They became a minority in their own land.

    
    passim.
    
    Thanks for that confirmation.  That was also the pov expressed to me by
    a few Taiwanese who responded to a faux pas that I committed during
    an I18N review, viz: "There is no Taiwanese language."
    
    
    Colin
    
     

Mandarin and Cantonese are different enough that they are written somewhat
differently.  There is less difference in writing than in pronunciation,
but since there are significant grammatical differences, there are
significant writing differences.

/john

         Not only should we ignore China's protestations of the visit of
    Mr. Lee, we should stop doing business as usual with these thugs. We
    should be supporting independence for Hong Kong and Taiwan. We should
    repeal the granting of "most-favored-nation" trade status with China.
    During the 1992 election, Bill Clinton criticized George Bush for
    granting China MFN status. That was one of the reasons I, a life-long
    Republican, voted for Clinton. 
    
         It is time we stopped looking at China as a member in good
    standing in the world community. Their human rights policies make the
    old South Africa look like a human rights paradise. We rightly did not
    trade with South Africa until they cleaned up their act. We shouldn't
    be trading with China until they do the same. 
    
    		Mike
    

>We should be supporting independence for Hong Kong and Taiwan.

Why should we meddle in the internal affairs of Hong Kong and Taiwan?

Neither Hong Kong nor Taiwan wants independence.

/john

    
    re: .23
    
    It's amazing that no one has refuted or argued with you about your
    points...
    
      But then again, truth often tends to do that....
    

    
    Maybe it's something to do with their standard crowd control
    procedure.  Running people over with tanks.

    they're saving their 200M+ soldiers for Armageddon.

    They're not truly interested in peace.  They're simply interested in
    financial power which leads to control.
    
    Communism is alive and well in China.

    And so is the devil.

TTHT:
    The numbers/letters are starting to wear off the keycaps on my PC keyboard.

    And I've only had it for less than a year.

    Made in Taiwan, it says.

    Buy a new keyboard.  One with double-shot molded keycaps.  KeyTronic,
    Adesso, and others are made this way.  The markings will NEVER wear
    off.  Unless you wear a hole through the plastic.

If his hands are like sandpaper (as the ads used to say), he might wear a
hole through the plastic.

Mr. Topaz, you're soaking in it.  HTH.

    I think Mr. DelBalso has the right to be peeved, one would expect
    the keycap lettering to remain visible a bit longer.
    
    For goodness sake, there's no telling then my LK201 keyboard was
    manufactured (it's on my VAXstaion 2000 - no comments necessary);
    but there's no danger of the lettering fading :-)
    
    

    Were not Mr. DelBalso such a demon typer, his key caps might
    remain legendized a bit longer.

Jack, this is for you:

`1234567890-=\
  QWERTYUIOP[]
   ASDFGHJKL;'
    ZXCVBNM,./

Jack classifies hellish creatures?

    
    .40,
    
    Not only that, but if he typed more gently, the letters would
    last longer!
    

    
      Apparently yesterday, heavily lobbied by the People's Republic of
     China, the UN general assembly's committee on membership voted down
     a membership application by Taiwan.
    
      bb

    
      China struggles to enforce its value-added tax.  Forged receipts
     are a big problem, authorities say.  Problems persist even though
     the government takes a no-nonsense approach that makes U.S.
     enforcement look tame.  A Chinese official says several people
     found guilty of fraud were executed earlier this year.
    
      bb

    Jason, where did you hear the part about Chinese retaliation on Los
    Angelas?
    
    -Jack

How 'bout this, Jason?

We (the US) let the PRC and Taiwan duke it out amongst themselves.

That way we can keep cutting the old US defense budget just like you'd prefer.

OK?

Touche'

    Jason,
    
    What it boils down to is we are screwing ourselves; therefore we
    apparently will get what we deserve.
    
    The government punishment for achievement, innovation and success in this
    country is simply too taxing on American businesses and budgets.  
    
    -Jack

    
    Today's news: China is buying into US's senate and congress men.
    
    Example: Senate Feinstein of California.  She is an easy target.
    I found she is on China's side on most issue since she became
    senate.   She is vulnerable because her husband has extensive 
    business in China.

 Yabbut, she sent the money back on Friday..see!  She did nothing wrong,
and I bet she won't do it again!

    <snicker>

    
    Yes, she did nothing wrong.  But a little too late in returning
    the money.  Why she has to wait long after the all embrassment of
    Clinton with China's fund contribution?  Is she dumb or what?
    
    Here is a LA Time reader's letter:  By Don Ryerson
    
    "What's all this fuss about the Chinese trying to influence our
    election?  For the past 40 years our government, usually through
    the CIA, has been destabilizing governments all over the globe
    by buying off or rigging elections, running our candidates and
    even having political figures assassinated."  
    
    I add this: "Even sent troops to overthrow the foreign government
    in the name of our nation's interest".
    
    "Now when some other country dares to try the same thing here with
    such an innocuous method as funneling money to candidates it prefers,
    Republican got upset.  Of course other countries have a stake in the
    results of our elections and we have to expect them to do whatever 
    they can(legally) to influence the outcome".
    
    Another reader - John Ferguson
    
    "Your article seems to me to put undue emphasis on a nonevent.
    Your bashing of Democrats lately appears to be an overreaction to the
    Republican politicians' continual whining about 'liberal press bias'."
    
    What I don't understand is if Republican can get all the legal
    fund contribution from tobacco companies(for example),  should we
    investigate if tobacco companies tring to compromise the health of
    this nation's citizen?

 Well..how about the city of Long Beach, CA leasing the former US Naval Base
 to a subsidiary of the Chinese military?



 Jim