Conference back40::soapbox

    Can we put a little bit of historical perspective on this middle east
    thingy. Recall Ur, Sumeria, Babylon, Egypt, for 5000 or so years the
    middle east has been a hot bed of violence and creativity. Temporary
    peace is about all one can hope for. Unless of course we are talking
    about man evolving to the state where war no longer is needed. 
     
    I cant believe people get excited about these things, unless of course
    a private fortune is at stake.
    
    chris
    

    
    its important to point out this apparent injustice when Israel
    make their claims to be a nation governed by the rule of law
    and with rights to liberty and property for all.

    the 'claims' of reality are almost (that is a real tiny almost) always
    askew from the actual or functioning reality.
    ie. what ever Isreal may claim is only, in the final analysis, a claim
    and not the reality. You may call yourself whatever you wish, its up to
    the others around you to determine what is actually you. If you are
    skillfull and perhaps control a news paper or two or thirty what people
    determine for themselves via your control of info you could make up a
    pretty good disguise for yourself.
    

    If the news is correct, I'm glad Israel is taking what is rightfully 
    theirs.  However, the news is very anti-Semitic (home and abroad) and so 
    is a large portion of those that call themselves Christians.  It's time 
    these people take into consideration what God's word says and start
    supporting Israel within that context.  A *MUST* read book for everyone
    who claims to be a Christian is "Our Hands Are Stained With Blood" by
    Michael L. Brown.  It deals with the tragic story of what has been done
    to the Jews in the name of "Christ" throughout history.  We owe the
    Hebrew people a major apology!
    
    Remember, a lot of the AP and UPI news feeds come from Cairo (i.e.,
    Islam) and are tainted as such.
    
    Mike

    .4
    
    > I'm glad Israel is taking what is rightfully
    > theirs.
    
    And I suppose you have no bad feelings over their having expropriated
    the land by rather more violent means some 3200 years ago, as
    documented in the book of Joshua?  I wonder if you have any feeling at
    all for the people who died when the Israelites were a band of vicious
    marauders from whom Atilla could have learned a few tricks in the
    savagery department.

 ZZ   I wonder if you have any feeling at
 ZZ   all for the people who died when the Israelites were a band of
 ZZ   vicious marauders from whom Atilla could have learned a few tricks in the
 ZZ   savagery department.
    
    The Israelites were an assembly of nomads who followed the direction of
    Joshua and Caleb.  The Canaanites to whom they defeated at Jericho were
    warriors who were Nephalim.  They were warlike and considered
    giants...similar to Goliath.  
    
    Keep in mind that it was the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob who went to
    war against the pagan nations.  
    
    -Jack

    
      Chosen people, Binder.
    
      bb

    Didn't imply that was the case now.  I was dispelling the belief that
    the Israelites were a bunch of savages during the times of Joshua and
    Caleb.
    
    -Jack

    .6
    
    > The Canaanites to whom they defeated at Jericho were
    > warriors who were Nephalim.  They were warlike and considered
    > giants...similar to Goliath.
    
    From the Curmudgeon's Dictionary:
    
        history n.  A detailed record of past events; or, more often, a
        whitewashing of those same events.
        
            History is made at night.  Character is what you are in the
            dark.
            
            		- John Whorfin, character in film "The Adventures
            		  of Buckaroo Banzai Across the Eighth Dimension"
    
    > Keep in mind that it was the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob who went to
    > war against the pagan nations.
    
    From the Curmudgeon's Dictionary:
    
        religion n.  An attempt to understand and obey the whims of
        whatever sort of being one imagines one's God to be; hence, one
        man's excuse for starting a war, and the next man's excuse for
        refusing to fight in it.
    
            All religions look equally silly from the outside.
    
    			- Robert A. Heinlein, "Time Enough for Love"
    
    Now then, can you come up with some supportable excuses?

    Sure.  Israel was under a theocracy in those times.  Israel was chosen
    to bring forth the messiah and establish an eternal kingdom  (Part of
    the Davidic covenant and all that).  Israel followed the direct
    commands of God to go and take the land for a posession.  Israel
    followed Gods command but failed to see it completely through...hence
    Gods chosen people fell into idol worship and, throughout years of
    history, experienced the pain and negative effects of their
    disobedience.  
    
    -Jack

    .8
    
    I didn't say the Israelites were savages.  I said they were savage in
    the prosecution of their war of aggression.  And they were - they
    slaughtered whole cities, even including all the domestic animals. 
    They also did other charming things like hanging their victims on trees
    for hours.

    I too have no hard feelings over the events recorded in Joshua. 
    Matters of faith aside, it's a drop in the hat compared to what they've
    been put through.

    .10
    
    > Israel was chosen
    > to bring forth the messiah and establish an eternal kingdom...
    
    I suspect that had anyone asked the peoples who thought, for some
    inexplicable reason, that the land was theirs, whether these murderous
    nomads had been chosen to bring enlightenment to them, their answer
    would have been in the negative.
    
    History is written by the winners.  If the Amalekites or some other
    resident people had taken the Israelites down, we today would know the
    children of Abraham only as a footnote to the history of Palestine, if
    at all.

    .12
    
    > drop in the hat compared to what they've
    > been put through.
    
    But THEY STARTED IT when they invaded a land held by other, established
    peoples, and ruthlessy destroyed them all.  If you're into lex
    taleonis, they are getting their just due.

    I don't care what race it is, the Inquisition and the Holocaust isn't
    "getting their just due" by any stretch of you imagination.
    
    Mr. Binder, you've swallowed the anti-Semitic trend hook, line, and 
    sinker.  

ZZ     And they were - they
ZZ     slaughtered whole cities, even including all the domestic animals. 
    
    The first King of Israel, King Saul, had the kingdom stripped away from
    him and handed over to David.  The big reason for this was because in a
    battle, the Lord told him to kill every living thing...men, women,
    children, and animals.  Saul did not kill the animals because they were
    a choice stock...and told God he was going to use the animals for the
    sacrifice.  God was not taken in.
    
    Point being that God's holiness surpasses any perceived compassion on
    our part.  It is a good demonstration of how holy God is and how much
    he despises sin.
    
    -Jack

    .15
    
    > Mr. Binder, you've swallowed the anti-Semitic trend hook, line, and
    > sinker.
    
    No, actually, I'm not antiSemitic, as any of my friends who happen to
    be Jewish will tell you.  I am simply aware of history, and I am able
    to look at it with an eye that is not blinded by religion - mine or
    anyone else's.  You, on the other hand, are one of the people who give
    rise to the aphorism, "Those who will not learn from history are doomed
    to repeat it."

    .17
    
    Jack, you keep coming back to "God told them to."  I assert that for
    people who did/do not worship the god of Abraham, that is an untenable
    position.  It is an excuse, nothing more.

    
    Binder, their behavior was not, and was not intended to be,
    rational in the sense you intend.  You are attempting to impose
    a standard of behavior on the ancients, which they were not familiar,
    and would have considered beneath contempt if they knew it.
    
    War between tribes over land is not new with Israel.
    
    The notion that it is somewhow not inevitable, is modern.
    
      bb

    re: .13
    
    > History is written by the winners.
    
    Since we are talking about the book of Joshua in this instance, I find 
    this an interesting comment.  Do you think that this history was tainted 
    in any way by "the winners"?  Do you think God would allow
    for His word to future generations to be tainted?  
    
    Seems the Bible pretty much takes the kid gloves off when telling the
    history of God's chosen people.  If they do right, it says so.  If they
    turn away from what is right, it says so in no uncertain terms.
    
    I agree with your comment, in general.  I just wonder if it is
    applicable in this case.
    
    
    -steve                    

    .19
    
    Braucher, I merely pointed out that the land taken by the israelites
    was stolen from the people who lived there through the course of a
    brutal war.  I said nothing about whether there would have been such a
    war had roles been reversed.
    
    I find it odd for the Israeli people of today to posit, after having
    been dispossessed of it 1900 years ago by the Romans, that they and
    they alone have the divine right to the land that they themselves took
    from others only 1300 years earlier.  The period during which it was
    NOT theirs, counting only from when they took it, is longer by some 600
    years, than was the period during which it was theirs.

    .20
    
    > Do you think God would allow
    > for His word to future generations to be tainted?
    
    You guys keep coming back to the unprovable assertion that a god had a
    hand in the events described in the book of Joshua.

    re: .22
    
    So?  We are talking about a book of the Bible.  8^)

        > History is written by the winners.
    
    I don't think this is always the case, at least where Israel is
    concerned.  Hebrews were victimized in the times described in Judges,
    Isaiah, Ezra, Zechariah, Jeremiah, Daniel, and Ezekiel.  These prophets
    describe the servitude of the judges, the servitude of the nation, and
    the desolation of Jerusalem (which I've discussed before in here with
    respect to Israel's history).
    
    Mike

    
    But, Binder, there isn't any way to understand modern Zionism,
    or for that matter, any of the politics of the middle east, in
    the absence of the religious texts.  It can't be done.
    
      bb

>    No, actually, I'm not antiSemitic, as any of my friends who happen to
>    be Jewish will tell you.  I am simply aware of history, and I am able
    
    So do you just display conditional bigotry?  How on earth anyone can
    say "they're getting their just due" after going through the
    Inquisition and the Holocaust is well beyond me.
    
    have a nice day,
    Mike

    Somehow people seem to forget that the PLO and Yassir's boys aren't
    very gracious in acts of war.  Mohammed was just as bad.  Revisionist
    history is one-sided as displayed by anti-Semites.  The truth is not
    one-sided.
    
    Mike

    .26
    
    > How on earth anyone can
    > say "they're getting their just due" after going through the
    > Inquisition and the Holocaust is well beyond me.
    
    Try reading for comprehension.  In .14 I said, and I quote:
    
    > If you're into lex
    > taleonis, they are getting their just due.
    
    I'm sorry I used a term with which you're not familiar.  Lex taleonis
    is the law of retribution.  You know, an eye for an eye and a tooth for
    a tooth.  And I said "if you're into..."  I didn't say I am into it.

    .23
    
    > We are talking about a book of the Bible.
    
    So?  There are more people in the world who believe that said book is
    NOT divinely inspired than there are who believe that it IS divinely
    inspired.

    .25
    
    > there isn't any way to understand modern Zionism,
    > or for that matter, any of the politics of the middle east...
    
    Or any other fanaticism.

    
    Well, that's right.  If you want to understand Hitler, read
    Mein Kampf.
    
    Suppose a foreigner asked, "Why on earth do Americans think they
    can say anything that pops into their heads ?  Why don't the
    proper authorities stop them ?"
    
    You might say, "The First Amendment to our Constitution..."
    
    But the responder might butt in, "Oh, Constitutions - THAT silliness.
    Well we never use those where I come from.  Explain it some other way."
    
      bb

    > Since we are talking about the book of Joshua in this instance, I 
    > find this an interesting comment.  Do you think that this history was
    > tainted in any way by "the winners"?  Do you think God would allow for
    > His word to future generations to be tainted?
    
    Steve, you crack me up.  Those of us who have no belief in your god
    find the question ludicrous.  Take it as a given that the politics
    surrounding institutionalized religion have included and excised
    whatever the powers-that-were deemed fit through the centuries.  That's
    the whole point.  You're in the grip of a millenially-old power play
    begun by people long dust and maintained by generations of wanna-be  
    powermongers.  Do I think its 'tainted'?  I can't realistically
    consider a situation in which it isn't!
    
    DougO

    Since common sense would tell us that Israel in its state wouldn't have
    a chance against the Canaanites without some sort of divine
    intervention, I assume you also see the Old Testament as a false record
    of history...tainted to draw the gullible if you will?
    
    -Jack

    'common sense'?  You happen to have day-to-day knowledge of the
    comparative strengths of Israeli forces vs Canaanites of 3000 years
    ago?  No?  Oh, you're going on the 'reported troop strengths' written
    by the victors in that 'untainted' document, are you?
    
    (do we just hire these people out of grade school, or what?)
    
    DougO

    
    be sure to remember to figure the parting sea, plagues, and pillars
    of fire into the israeli order of battle.
    
    this was before hollywood too, mind you..
    
     

    Robert, I know you read 'Antiquities'.  Several recent notes there have
    discussed recent books that examine the current state of archeological
    knowledge, especially of ancient Egypt, and the surrounding areas and
    influences all the civilizations of that era had upon each other
    through the centuries.
    
    Suffice to say that the biblical accounts don't jibe with many other
    sources of information.
    
    DougO

Now wait just a minute there, Mike Heiser.

This land is being expropriated by the government established by European
immigrants to the land of Palestine.  That immigration was approved by
the United Nations in 1948, and the parameters of the U.N. resolution did
not include control of East Jerusalem by the Zionist government.

The people from whom this land is being taken are Semites, so opposing
this cannot be called anti-Semitic!

Many of the people losing land are Christians whose families have lived in
Jerusalem since the time of Christ.

/john

>    If the news is correct, I'm glad Israel is taking what is rightfully 
>    theirs.  However, the news is very anti-Semitic (home and abroad) and so 
>    is a large portion of those that call themselves Christians.  It's time 
>    these people take into consideration what God's word says and start
>    supporting Israel within that context.
    
    I fail to see what is anti-Semitic about the news. All I have read is
    that the government is expropriating Arab owned land in East Jerusalem,
    which is under any law, international or local, rightfully belong to
    these Arabs.
    
    And what is God's word? The majority of the world's population (and
    most of the Middle East for that matter) haven't heard from this
    particular God, as he/she/it does not appears to be on speaking terms with
    most of us. If this God has plans for East Jerusalem, I think we can
    all safely assume that he does not need our or the Israeli Government's
    help, so let's just leave him out of this discussion.
    
    You are absolutely right that the jewish people suffered a lot, so did
    a lot of other peoples. Try to remember that the Holocast was not
    reserved for the jews, the Nazis also tried to exterminate the gypsies
    for example in the same extermination camps. Anyway, the fact that they
    have suffered so much does not entitle them to commit these injustices
    to the Palestinians, and it is absolutely sickening to any right
    thinking person and especially to the memory of those who perished in
    those camps when you use the example of the Holocast to justify the
    racism the Israli Government shows towards Palestinians, and the "ethnic
    cleansing" that they are engaged in in East Jerusalem.
    
    As for the American Government's veto on the UN resolution. I am lost
    of words. What happened to the old saying about truth, justice etc.?
    
    
    Gabor
     

    
    Israeli gov't backed off under threat of non-confidence vote.
    

re: .17

>    Point being that God's holiness surpasses any perceived compassion on
>    our part.  It is a good demonstration of how holy God is and how much
>    he despises sin.
 
And the animals sin against God was...   

 ZZ    Oh, you're going on the 'reported troop strengths' written
 ZZ       by the victors in that 'untainted' document, are you?
    
    Thanks DougO...you just answered my question here.  You believe the
    historical account of the battle of Jericho as given in the Old
    Testament is tainted...or false.  That's fine, I respect your belief.
    
    The Israelites on many occasions were outnumbered in soldiers and
    weaponry.  
    
    -Jack

    There was no sin on the part of the animals.  My guess is that the
    nations that were obliterated were so deep into pagan idolatry that God
    wanted them completely purged from the land.  On a few occasions, the
    Israelites disobeyed and hence Baal worship amongst others was
    instituted amongst the nation of Israel.  Death and misery followed
    because of their disobedience.
    
    -Jack

    re: .32
    
    >Those of us who have no belief in your god find this question
    >ludicrous.
    
    I am well aware of this fact, which is why I was specifically asking
    Dick- who is a Christian.
    
    
    
    -steve

    
    Actually, the Jewish-Canaanite wars were just another boring
    ancient genocide in a period of scores of them.  I never could
    even remember them all in ancient history class.  The interesting
    thing about Jericho wasn't the result, but the technique.  Racial
    war by means of bad music is a novelty.  If it comes to this, our
    own country seems well prepared.
    
      bb

    .33
    
    > Since common sense...
    > I assume you also see the Old Testament as a false record
    > of history...tainted to draw the gullible if you will?
    
    Are you incapable of a discussion on hypothetical terms, or do you
    phrase your questions that way deliberately to maximize your foolish
    appearance?

    .41
    
    > The Israelites on many occasions were outnumbered...
    
    They're not the only ones who have won victories, even devastating
    ones, against nominally superior opponents.  Are you so ignorant of
    history that you don't recognize the phrase "the fortunes of war"? 
    You really do look very foolish.

    > You believe the historical account of the battle of Jericho as given
    > in the Old Testament is tainted...or false. 
    
    Right.  As are many of the other biblical accounts of that time, as
    indicated by extensive archaeological evidence that simply can't
    reconcile the biblical accounts.  Jericho's chronology doesn't match
    up- nor do the accounts of the Exodus, frankly.
    
    DougO

    My apologies, Dick.

    FACT: Israel has given back over 90% of the land taken in the 6-day
    war.

>    reserved for the jews, the Nazis also tried to exterminate the gypsies
>    for example in the same extermination camps. Anyway, the fact that they
    
    Weren't gypsies typically Jewish as well?
    
>    those camps when you use the example of the Holocast to justify the
>    racism the Israli Government shows towards Palestinians, and the "ethnic
>    cleansing" that they are engaged in in East Jerusalem.
    
    FACT: Palestinians state that Israeli treat them more humanely than the
    Arab nations and the same Arab nations won't even allow most of them to
    enter their lands.  The Arabs want the Palestinians there to harass
    Israel.  And btw - the Palestinians already have their own nation where
    the majority of the people are Palestinians.  It's called Jordan.
    
    Mike

RE: 433.50 by OUTSRC::HEISER "the dumbing down of America"

> Weren't gypsies typically Jewish as well?

No.


Phil

    FACT: Israel aside, Arab nations have been in conflict with each other for 
    centuries.  See Iraq/Iran/Kuwait in recent history for examples.

>       <<< Note 433.50 by OUTSRC::HEISER "the dumbing down of America" >>>

>    Weren't gypsies typically Jewish as well?
    
Before you make yourself look any worse go look up Romish.

       <<< Note 433.52 by OUTSRC::HEISER "the dumbing down of America" >>>
                        -< where the real problem lies >-

>    FACT: Israel aside, Arab nations have been in conflict with each other for 
>    centuries.  See Iraq/Iran/Kuwait in recent history for examples.

Iran is not Arab. It's middle east. It's Muslim. But it's not Arab.

    ZZ    Are you incapable of a discussion on hypothetical terms, or do you
    ZZ    phrase your questions that way deliberately to maximize your
    ZZ    foolish appearance?
    
    No, my clothes do a sufficient job of that.:-)  Oh lighten up Jack,
    nobody here can speak on hypothetical terms!  It's the Soapbox way!!
    
    -Jack

    re: .47
    
    Would you care to back this up with supporting evidence?  From what
    I've gathered over the last couple of years, much of the Biblical
    historical account has been supported via archaeological evidence.
    
    
    -steve

    It is my belief that all war is economic - regardless of the excuse the
    perpetrators use, e.g. religion, class, power.   The "have-nots" want
    something that the "haves" have, and when you boil it all down it
    distills to fighting for economic superiority.
    
    Joan

    .57
    
    You're close.  Actually, wars are fought for reasons of population, the
    Crusades being the textbook case.

    
      Generalizations, 10 o'clock...
    
      bb

    re .56-
    
    See caldec::antiquity 106.71-.latest for recent discussions.
    
    DougO

Newspaper reports finding mass graves of Egyptian POWs


(c) 1995 Copyright The News and Observer Publishing Co.
(c) 1995 Associated Press

CAIRO, Egypt (Sep 20, 1995 - 09:12 EDT) -- Egypt's leading
newspaper unearthed two mass graves in Sinai believed to
contain the remains of Egyptian POWs and civilians murdered
by Israeli troops in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, the paper
reported today.

The state-run Al-Ahram said two guides -- a former officer
and a bedouin -- led its reporters to sites near the city of
al-Arish, where they saw Israeli troops gun down captured
Egyptian soldiers and civilians.

Bones and remnants of uniforms were dug up at the two sites,
the daily said. A doctor was quoted as saying the bones were
human remains.

Defense Ministry officials had no immediate comment on the
report. The government has taken a low-key approach to
reports of Israeli killings of Egyptian prisoners of war, asking
for an investigation but limiting criticism of Israel.

A controversy arose over the alleged murders after an Israeli
officer admitted to ordering the execution of 49 Egyptian POWs
in the 1956 Middle East war. Some Israeli historians have since
estimated more than 1,000 Egyptian prisoners were killed in the
1956 and 1967 wars.

In contrast to the government, Egypt's press has sharply
attacked Israel. Opposition papers claimed Israeli Ambassador
David Sultan took part in executions, a charge Israel denies.
They also demanded Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin be
barred from visiting Egypt and that ties with Israel be cut.

Al-Ahram said it began its search after getting "the approval of
various officials."

Abdel-Salam Moussa, an air force officer during the 1967 war,
took the Al-Ahram team to an old military air base about 3
miles outside al-Arish.

Moussa, now 55, told the newspaper that he was taken prisoner
after a battle on June 6.

On the same day, he said he saw "a line of prisoners, among
them civilians and soldiers, gunned down all at once" by the
Israelis.

The newspaper did not explain why Moussa's life was spared.

The team dug for six hours, the report said, and found skeletons
heaped together.

Suleiman Maghnam Salamah, a bedouin, led the team to another
site, about 16 miles outside al-Arish, where he said more than
30 Egyptian soldiers were buried.

Salamah said he and other bedouins watched as Israelis lined
up prisoners and shot them down. The bedouins buried them, he
said.



    
    Well that sure as #@!! ain't gonna help bring a lasting peace to the
    middle east.....
    
    :-|
    

Pope says Jerusalem issue may threaten peace
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright � 1996 Nando.net
Copyright � 1996 Reuter Information Service

VATICAN CITY (Jan 13, 1996 09:52 a.m. EST) - Pope John Paul said on Saturday
Middle East peace could be dashed if differences persisted over the status
of Jerusalem and called for international guarantees to preserve its
multi-religious nature.

In an annual state of the world address, he voiced criticism of those Moslem
states which he said denied religious freedom and said African leaders would
condemn their continent to pariah status unless they mended their ways.

His speech, to ambassadors from more than 160 countries that have relations
with the Holy See, included a call for a swift end to nuclear testing just
one week before a visit to the Vatican by French President Jacques Chirac.

The Pontiff's audience in the Vatican's marble-lined and tapestried Sala
Reggia included Israel's ambassador and, for the first time, a Palestinian
representative.

Speaking in French, he said he hoped Israelis and Palestinians would live
"from now on side by side, with one another, in peace, mutual esteem and
sincere cooperation."

"But allow me to confide that this hope could prove ephemeral if a just and
adequate solution is not also found to the particular problem of Jerusalem,"
he said.

"The religious and universal dimension of the holy city demands a commitment
on the part of the whole international community, in order to ensure that
the city preserves its uniqueness and retains its living character."

He noted that Jerusalem, sacred to Jews, Christians and Moslems, should be
the subject of negotiations between Israel and the new Palestinian Authority
during 1996.

The Vatican and Israel established full ties in 1994, ending centuries of
often hostile Roman Catholic-Jewish relations.

Both sides are still formally at odds over the status of Jerusalem. Most
countries including the Vatican do not recognise Israel's claim to Jerusalem
as its "united and eternal capital" following annexation of the Arab eastern
sector in 1980.

A suggestion last month by murdered Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin's
widow, Leah, after she met the Pope that the Vatican had changed its
position was swiftly quashed.

The Pope cited the Middle East, with Bosnia, Northern Ireland and Central
America, which he will visit next month, as areas of conflict where a
climate of peace was now advancing.

He said there were still "too many hotbeds of conflict, more or less
disguised, which keep people under the unbearable yoke of violence, hatred,
uncertainty and death."

He referred to Algeria, divided Cyprus, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Kashmir and
Sri Lanka, East Timor and several African countries.

Taking up a theme he tackled on a visit to Africa last September, he said he
was addressing the consciences of its leaders to be politically credible if
they wanted outside aid.

"If you do not commit yourselves more resolutely to national democratic
dialogue, if you do not more clearly respect human rights, if you do not
strictly administer public funds and external credits, if you do not condemn
ethnic ideology, the African continent will ever remain on the margins of
the community of nations," he said.

On religious freedom, the Pope said some Moslem countries denied rights of
worship to other faiths even in private.

"This is an intolerable and unjustifiable violation not only of all the
norms of current international law, but of the most fundamental human
freedom, that of practising one's faith openly, which for human beings is
their reason for living."

[Jerusalem Post Internet News Section] [several articles]

12 die in TA as Hamas terror strikes again

by RAINE MARCUS

TEL AVIV (March 5) - A lone suicide bomber detonated a 20-kilogram nail bomb
in the heart of Tel Aviv adjacent to the packed Dizengoff Center at 4:04
p.m. yesterday, killing 12 people, including four youths, and injuring 109.

By midnight last night, the names of the victims had not yet been released.

Prime Minister Shimon Peres said Israel would strike at Islamic
fundamentalist bombers anywhere to ensure the personal security of its
citizens.

"We will go to any corner where this terror has taken root," Peres said in a
statement after an emergency cabinet meeting. "What I needed to spell out, I
did. What I didn't think I should specify I didn't," he said in reply to
question whether the army could now re-enter Palestinian areas.

Religious Affairs Minister Shimon Shetreet said "Unequivocally yes," when
asked on television if the IDF now claimed the right to operate in area A
areas - the main West Bank towns and much of the Gaza Strip under Arafat's
control.

"One thing is clear: the IDF has the freedom to operate in the `A' zone...
there are no restrictions," he said.

Top US officials were meanwhile called to the White House yesterday to
develop a strategy for helping Israel deal with continuing terrorist
attacks, Associated Press reported.

In advance of the session, US officials said Israel is likely to be given
more information about terror groups, especially Hamas, which has claimed
four suicide bombings in the last nine days.

"My assessment of dealing with terrorist forces is that a key to success is
getting good intelligence, so the primary emphasis, I would think," would be
helping in that area, Defense Secretary William Perry said.

Hundreds of people lit fires and stoned cars in a protest outside the
Defense Ministry during the emergency cabinet meeting.

The growing crowd, shouting demands for Peres to resign, also chanted "Death
to Arabs" and held up signs reading "Peres promises and gives us a new
Middle East: drenched in blood."

Amid calls for revenge and war one protester jumped on top of a van, waving
a Palestinian flag. Police tried to remove him as he was about to set fire
to the flag. The protester fell and was carried away in a stretcher.

Channel 1 estimated the size of the crowd gathered at the ministry at
between 700 and 800. It said police arrested some 30 protesters.

A Labor Party office in south Tel Aviv was torched last night. There was
considerable damage but no casualties.

The bomber, a member of Hamas's Izzadin Kassam terrorist organization, had
strapped the bomb to his body, and according to police intended to enter the
shopping mall to kill and maim even more people on the eve of Purim.

The terrorist, whose identity has not yet been definitely confirmed, blew
himself up as he crossed the main Dizengoff/King George intersection,
between Hapoalim and Leumi banks, just as the traffic lights turned red.

Police said that two policemen were guarding the doorway he wished to enter,
and therefore he decided to take no chances and detonated the bomb as he
crossed the crowded street.

Although Tel Aviv police chief Cmdr. Gabi Last said there could be no
consolation considering the numbers of killed and wounded in the attack,
hundreds would have been slaughtered if he had succeeded in getting into the
massive mall.

"I dread to think what could have happened if a bomb of such a size would
have blown up inside the Center," he said. "We had no definite warnings that
a terrorist attack would be carried out in Tel Aviv, but as during every
holiday we were on full alert."

Yesterday's attack signified a new style of bombing - while police said they
expected a bus bomber or a booby trapped car, they did not anticipate a
pedestrian.

Police said they had been posted at main shopping malls around the city and
at crowded public places following intelligence information that suicide
bombers may operate there.

Immediately after the bombing - which damaged some of the Center and
surrounding stores, cafes and banks - massive forces of police, border
police, soldiers, GSS agents, Magen David Adom ambulances and municipality
rescue services arrived on the scene, only 500 meters from the bus bomb
which exploded on October 20, 1994.

GSS chief Ami Ayalon arrived soon after the bombing. A group of GSS agents -

including Yoram Rubin, who was injured during the assassination of prime
minister Yitzhak Rabin - was among them.

Streets were completely sealed off and people, many hysterical searching for
their loved ones, were kept well back from the center, while sappers
together with labrador and explosive-sniffing dogs scoured the area,
including plants, to check for additional bombs.

Prime Minister Shimon Peres - guarded by convoys of vehicles and gauntlets
of GSS agents and policemen - arrived at the scene, accompanied by Internal
Security Minister Moshe Shahal and followed by Inspector-General Assaf
Hefetz.

Police prevented angry crowds shouting anti-government slogans from coming
anywhere near his convoy.

"Traitor Peres, death to Arabs. Peres, you're next," shouted the
demonstrators.

Hefetz confirmed the nature and size of the bomb, stressing that it
contained nails and pieces of metal.

Tel Aviv Municipality set up an emergency hot line for residents wishing to
find out the fate of their relatives and friends. Mayor Ronni Milo said he
was relieved that he had canceled all official Purim celebrations following
previous attacks.

"We have to wage all-out war on the Hamas and other terrorists," he said.
"We feared that something like this could happen here. Tel Aviv is not
exempt."

On the glass and carnage-filled streets, Hevra Kadisha volunteers again for
the fourth time during the past eight days, filled up plastic bags with body
remains and climbed onto buildings scraping up flesh and organs.

Police, accustomed to the grisly sights of such attacks, showed less
professional restraint than on previous occasions. Seasoned uniformed
policemen and detectives were not ashamed to express their personal shock
and anger.

"You see, they're butchering us," said one chief superintendent. Others
conducted political arguments.

One off-duty detective, Ronni, who had been shopping in the center at the
time, described the chaos inside the mall just after the explosion.

"People were running, screaming - they knew immediately it was a terrorist
attack," he said. "There was just one big cloud, of smoke, of people. The
injured lay down on the floor and we helped move them. Glass shattered
everywhere. Stores were wrecked and people who were able to move didn't know
where to run. When I got outside the sadly familiar sights of hands, legs
and burning flesh hit me. I won't forget the blonde head lying near the
bank."

Outside, Magen David Adom personnel and rescue services evacuated the dead
and injured. Bodies were taken to the Abu Kabir Forensics Institute, while
the wounded were transferred to Ichilov, Beilinson, Meir, Wolfson and
Hasharon hospitals.

MKs Rehavam Ze'evi and David Mena also arrived on the scene.

"Only yesterday [Sunday] I said I expected an attack in Jaffa," said Ze'evi.
"So, it happened in Tel Aviv, not Jaffa. We cannot treat cancer as if it is
a headache. This cancer needs an operation. And in this case the only
operation is transfer."

It took police and rescue services hours to clean the streets. Cars,
including a cab wrecked from the blast, were towed away. The cabbie was
injured, as he had stopped to allow the terrorist to cross the street.

"We're going to have a long, long night and day ahead of us," said one
policeman, as he rushed to restrain a crowd of about 200 demonstrators.

Meanwhile, the shocked owner of the Maxim Cafe, just opposite the center,
who together with his friend was unable to speak since the bombing he had
just witnessed, began to gather his senses and the broken glass, and moved
the chairs and tables from the sidewalk where only a few hours earlier
people had been sitting enjoying coffee and cake, before a 20 kilogram bomb
wrecked the peace and quiet of the city that never sleeps.

Security sources said they are preparing for a continuation of the wave of
terrorist bombings, as police and sniper units have been deployed in major
cities and highways.

About two hours after the bombing, an anonymous caller telephoned Israel
Radio and said the attack was a joint operation of Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
The caller warned the cabinet, which met last night in emergency session,
not to take any steps against the Islamic groups.

Another anonymous telephone caller to Israel Radio's Arabic service said the
bomber was a member of Islamic Jihad named Saleh Abdul Rahim from Ramallah.

(Steve Rodan contributed to this report.)

Arafat pledges to fight terror with Israel

by JON IMMANUEL

JERUSALEM (March 5) - Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat said
yesterday he was ready with Israel "to fight and uproot this terror" and
"all the local and external forces" who stand behind it.

Speaking to reporters in Gaza, Arafat spoke of a two-stage treatment of the
problem, "first a quick and urgent stage in the framework of Israeli-
Palestinian relations and secondly a comprehensive treatment because this
terrorism has deep roots and its leadership moves freely in the region and
the world."

About 350 Islamic movement supporters have been arrested during the past
week but it is unclear how many of them are connected to the armed wing.

Former General Security Services director Carmi Killon cited Ramallah as a
source of the attacks, but did not think it necessary for Israel to go into
Ramallah, which is in area A under sole Palestinian Authority control.

Gillon said on ITV that the Palestinian police had "foiled terror attacks
when they knew about them," but had not taken preemptive action to arrest
known Izzadin Kassam commanders like Mohammed Dief whose location they did
know, even if they don't know where he is now. "You have to deal with the
head and not the tail," he said.

If words are an indication, Arafat appears to have understood that terrorism
against Israel directly threatens the Palestinian Authority.

Arafat's spokesman, Marwan Kanafani, said yesterday's bombing was "a
declaration of war, and we should treat it as such."

In Gaza's Yarmuk Stadium yesterday before the Tel Aviv attack, some 10,000
joined in an unprecedented rally against Islamic terrorism in support of the
peace process.

Although several of the latest statements by Izzadin Kassam, and its
spinoffs "the disciples of Yihye Ayyash" and "the units of Yihye Ayyash"
have issued contradictory statements, they appear to be all connected and
only one group is suspected of perpetrating all the recent attacks.

Despite a promise of a three-month cease-fire on Sunday, an anonymous caller
to Israel Radio said yesterday's Dizengoff Center attack was a response to
Prime Minister Shimon Peres response to their cease-fire "warning us there
will be war on Hamas."

The caller warned "there will be painful attacks in the very near future."
The caller alleged that yesterday's attack was perpetrated by "our brothers,
the Islamic Jihad."

Arafat: We have arrested the bombers' recruiter

by DAVID MAKOVSKY

JERUSALEM (March 5) - The Palestinian Authority raided a teacher's college
in Ramallah on Sunday night and arrested Mohammed Mustafa Abu Wardah, PA
President Yasser Arafat told diplomats in Gaza yesterday.

Abu Wardah was the "recruiter" of the suicide bombers in the two attacks in
Jerusalem over the last week, as well as the attack in Gaza.

Twenty others were also reportedly arrested in the raid, which was
coordinated with Israeli authorities.

Abu Wardah is a relative of Majdi Abu Wardah, last week's Jerusalem suicide
bomber. Until now, Arafat has not admitted that terror attacks have
originated in territories under PA control.

General Security Service chief Ami Ayalon confirmed to the Knesset Foreign
Affairs and Defense Committee that Arafat had made arrests in the Ramallah
area.

Arafat also said that in the last few days, he has arrested four of the 13
people on Israel's list of most-wanted Hamas terrorists.

A source close to Arafat said he is concerned that unless he takes decisive
action, there is a risk the entire agreement with Israel will unravel. "He
knows that he cannot have it both ways," avoiding conflict with Hamas while
retaining the peace agreement, the source said.

He said Arafat has promised to press religious leaders in Gaza to issue a
fatwa (edict) against terrorism, saying it runs contrary to Islam, and that
several mosque preachers will squarely condemn terrorist attacks in their
Friday sermons.

The PA is also pursuing Palestinian money changers, who Arafat believes are
laundering funds for Hamas.

Arafat himself will make further public statements, in Arabic, opposing
terrorism, as he did in an address to the public on Palestinian television
Sunday night and at a peace rally yesterday.

In his speech, Arafat said terror attacks are "sinful," and "forbidden by
God, by Islamic law, and by all norms and conventions."

The PA, he added, "will strike with a powerful hand at the plotters who are
trying by all means to undermine our achievements and national independence
and the future of our children, who want to live without occupation and
without the cycle of violence, extremism, and terrorism. It has decided to
face the flagrant foreign plot, which is directed by the enemies of the
Palestinian people."

Arafat is also said to be upset that Israel is not using its good ties with
Jordan to clamp down on two Hamas leaders he believes are providing
instructions and funding to the terrorists, Ibrahim Ghoshe and Mohammed
Nozzal, both based in Amman.

Netanyahu: We must take the initiative

by LIAT COLLINS

JERUSALEM (March 5) - Likud leader Binyamin Netanyahu held a short news
conference in Jerusalem last night in which the principal themes were the
need to return the initiative and freedom of operation to the Israeli
security forces and the need to demonstrate national unity while maintaining
restraint on the streets.

"The central problem of the terrorism we see today is that we rely on Yasser
Arafat and the Palestinian Authority to be our subcontractors in fighting
terrorism. It is clear that that concept has failed, and we see terrorism
exploding in our streets - literally. The only thing we can do is not to
continue on a failed course. It's bound to lead to more terrorism,"
Netanyahu said.

"What we should do is take the initiative, as any responsible government
does. Strike at the terrorists wherever they are without any limitations.
And obviously I leave the precise means to our security forces. Believe me,
they know what to do. If the terrorists feel they do not have to pay a
price, the terror will continue. If we don't hit out at it and its
emissaries, it will continue.

"The key is to ensure the terrorists do not enjoy a place of sanctuary. The
minute they have such a sanctuary, you are telling them: `You are immune and
have nothing to worry about.' As long as the leaders can send their
terrorists to do their work while being safe themselves, the terror will
continue. To fight the terror you must strike those behind it: the
preachers, the trainers, the operators. That requires freedom of action.
What we have to do is change the direction and concept."

Asked if he has a message for Yasser Arafat, Netanyahu replied: "I have a
message for the Israeli people, not for Arafat, and the message is first and
foremost: Don't give up! Don't give up because they are trying to break us,
these terrorists, and they won't. Let's not divide among ourselves and turn
one against the other. Let's show restraint and dignity, and let's direct
our efforts into a common battle against terrorism. And I stress we will
unite with the government to seize the initiative and start battling
terrorism. [Prime minister Shimon] Peres knows he has the support of the
opposition and the whole people for that policy."

Hamas-affiliated centers in Jerusalem to be shut

by BILL HUTMAN

JERUSALEM (March 5) - Hamas-affiliated organizations operating in eastern
Jerusalem will be closed down by administrative order, the spokesman for the
Internal Security Ministry announced last night.

The decision was taken at the meeting between Prime Minister Shimon Peres,
Internal Security Minister Moshe Shahal and heads of the security forces
held to plan responses to the recent wave of Hamas terror attacks, the
spokesman said.

Ministry sources said that at least three Palestinian institutions
affiliated with Hamas faced closure.

Jerusalem Mayor Ehud Olmert on Sunday presented Peres with a list of Hamas-
affiliated organizations in Jerusalem, including the Central Islamic Welfare
Organization, the Islamic Science and Technology Association and the Islamic
religion faculty of Al-Kuds University.

These welfare and education institutions, and others, are allegedly used by
Hamas to increase Palestinian public support for the organization.

Meanwhile, the police spokesman announced that an additional 500 soldiers
were being transferred temporarily to police service, in addition to the
1,000 already working with police in Jerusalem, in response to the recent
wave of terror attacks.

Terrorist stabs two in Hebron

by HERB KEINON

JERUSALEM (March 5) - Two yeshiva students were stabbed in central Hebron
yesterday by an assailant who was shot and arrested by the IDF.

Gideon Margalit, an administrator at the Shavei Hebron yeshiva, said the two
- Eyal Sa'adi, 25, of Karnei Shomron, and Yanai Dahan, 35, of Ra'anana -
were standing in Gross Square when the assailant ran out from the nearby
market and stabbed them. Soldiers saw the attack and fired at the terrorist,
who was hit but continued to flee.

The two were taken to Hadassah-University Hospital, Ein Kerem, suffering
from wounds to the back and the head, which were described as slight to
moderate.

The IDF Spokesman said the terrorist was arrested in a hospital in Hebron.

Noam Arnon, the head of the Hebron settlement, said the attack only
strengthens the argument against IDF redeployment from the city. "If the IDF
had been redeployed, the terrorist would have run another two meters and
been in the autonomous region," he said.

COMMENT: No time for despair

by THOMAS O'DWYER

TEL AVIV (March 5) - How many times can innocence die? For one child with a
white tulle dress and face painted pink for Purim, yesterday was the first
time. On a sunny spring afternoon, she sobbed her eyes out and clung to a
dazed teenager beside Ya'acov Agam's Fire and Water sculpture on Dizengoff
Circle.

The children seemed frozen while everyone else raced wildly in all
directions. It was just a few minutes after...

Thank God that child was one still alive to cry.

The stink of explosives still hung in the air. Fire and water, fire and
tears, blood and terror.

The whimsy of Agam's art, which Tel Avivians loved to love or to hate, is
itself no more - yesterday was Tel Aviv's second baptism of fire and death
in this Oslo process without peace.

It is 16 months since Tel Aviv's innocence - some would say complacency -
was blasted away in Dizengoff, on bus No. 5. Tel Aviv may have been the last
place in Israel where innocence was deemed a virtue.

It came from a belief that whatever the argument about who owns Jerusalem,
the Golan, or Hebron, everyone knows who owns the first Jewish city, the
center of modern Jewish culture, the social and economic laboratory of
Israel's future.

The assumption was Tel Aviv was immune. Even the fanatics would accept Tel
Aviv as an Israeli city, out of the contest. What a dangerous fallacy that
has proved to be.

The thunderous roar at 9 a.m. on October 20, 1994 changed all that, utterly,
and for good. The immediate stunned silence was one of palpable disbelief,
as if the horrified watchers were collectively willing the tangled wreck of
the bus to go away, somewhere, anywhere, but out of Dizengoff.

The streets were cleaned, the glass repaired, the bus stop moved, the crowds
returned. But normality was gone.

Every day, we regulars stand at the bus stop opposite the Dizengoff Tivoli
Cafe and the low black pedestal commemorating the 22 who died on bus No. 5.
We catch No. 5, around 4 p.m. The pillar of victims' names nestles against a
tree, whose shattered branches missed last spring but are flourishing now.

Every day, the memorial reminded us all that Dizengoff was a target and
remains a target. We hang theories, like rabbits' feet, around our necks.
"The bombers always attack in the morning," one tells a partner worried
about the regular afternoon bus ride. Bang goes another rabbit's foot.

Daily Dizengoff is a mildly pleasant routine, quickly taken for granted -
lots of bookshops, food, trees, musicians, cafes. Lots of youngsters heading
to or from the Center or Hard Rock Cafe.

Dizengoff Center was made for idle innocent pleasures, daily routine,
somewhere to escape that heavy stuff of politics and peace processes. Not a
place to go and yell slogans.

But when the shadow of the valley of death passes over, Dizengoff is one of
the most sinister of places. It is a darkness that sucks in the whole land
of Israel, for if the enemy can put this oh so normal place out of bounds,
where is our home any more?

Inside the Center after the bomb, it was astounding how far the damage had
spread - glass everywhere, dislocated roofs, wrecked cafes, panicky security
guards creating confusion by screaming at everyone in sight to go here, go
there, come back from there, and being screamed at to go to hell. One guard
doggedly continued to check handbags at a wrecked entrance.

They say the odds are shortening when dangers come off the news bulletins to
affect someone you know or some place nearby, and then it's time to take
care, whether it's AIDS, or car crashes, or terrorism.

Journalists live in news bulletins, so the rules must be different - their
innocence dies young.

But the first time I drove into a bombing, in 1970, skidding a car to a halt
as the center of the city of Newry in Northern Ireland disintegrated before
my eyes, I was only a tourist.

The first was the same as all the rest - the acrid air, the eerie silence,
the rising screams and shouts. The smell of death comes faster than the
ambulance.

Is there anything to be said that hasn't been?

Probably not. As long as there is one group out there that thinks Israel has
no right to exist, this is what we have, and it is no time to surrender to
despair.

It is no time to give up our bus, or our Dizengoff, or our Tel Aviv.

For if we do, we may as well forget our Jerusalem and our Israel.

    
      I have a report that the PLO is now assisting the Israelis in
     countering Hamas.  Did somebody get Arafat's ear yesterday ?
    
      bb

    
    > Did somebody get Arafat's ear yesterday ?
    
    They shoulda gone for his nose.  Too hard to miss.
    
    PR, strictly PR.  Good King Arafat scores points.

So, someone tell me:

Is the following article fair or biased?

http://www.umich.edu/~iinet/
      cmenas/StudyUnits/israeli-palestinian_conflict/teacherlesson3.html

    If you are a Palestinian, you'd probably call it fair. Otherwise, you'd
    probably call it biased.

      ___                       ___                                
     /\__\                     /|  |                               
    /:/ _/_       ___         |:|  |           ___           ___   
   /:/ /\  \     /\__\        |:|  |          /\__\         /|  |  
  /:/ /::\  \   /:/__/      __|:|__|         /:/  /        |:|  |  
 /:/_/:/\:\__\ /::\  \     /::::\__\_____   /:/__/         |:|  |  
 \:\/:/ /:/  / \/\:\  \__  ~~~~\::::/___/  /::\  \       __|:|__|  
  \::/ /:/  /   ~~\:\/\__\     |:|~~|     /:/\:\  \     /::::\  \  
   \/_/:/  /       \::/  /     |:|  |     \/__\:\  \    ~~~~\:\  \ 
     /:/  /        /:/  /      |:|__|          \:\__\        \:\__\
     \/__/         \/__/       |/__/            \/__/         \/__/
      ___                       ___           ___     
     /\  \                     /\  \         /\__\    
     \:\  \       ___          \:\  \       /:/ _/_   
      \:\  \     /\__\          \:\  \     /:/ /\__\  
  _____\:\  \   /:/__/      _____\:\  \   /:/ /:/ _/_ 
 /::::::::\__\ /::\  \     /::::::::\__\ /:/_/:/ /\__\
 \:\~~\~~\/__/ \/\:\  \__  \:\~~\~~\/__/ \:\/:/ /:/  /
  \:\  \        ~~\:\/\__\  \:\  \        \::/_/:/  / 
   \:\  \          \::/  /   \:\  \        \:\/:/  /  
    \:\__\         /:/  /     \:\__\        \::/  /   
     \/__/         \/__/       \/__/         \/__/    
      ___           ___           ___           ___           ___     
     /\__\         /\  \         /\  \         /\  \         /\__\    
    /:/ _/_        \:\  \       /::\  \       /::\  \       /:/ _/_   
   /:/ /\  \        \:\  \     /:/\:\  \     /:/\:\__\     /:/ /\__\  
  /:/ /::\  \   _____\:\  \   /:/ /::\  \   /:/ /:/  /    /:/ /:/  /  
 /:/_/:/\:\__\ /::::::::\__\ /:/_/:/\:\__\ /:/_/:/__/___ /:/_/:/  /   
 \:\/:/ /:/  / \:\~~\~~\/__/ \:\/:/  \/__/ \:\/:::::/  / \:\/:/  /    
  \::/ /:/  /   \:\  \        \::/__/       \::/~~/~~~~   \::/__/     
   \/_/:/  /     \:\  \        \:\  \        \:\~~\        \:\  \     
     /:/  /       \:\__\        \:\__\        \:\__\        \:\__\    
     \/__/         \/__/         \/__/         \/__/         \/__/    

    Do shut up Glen, if you haven't anything intelligent to say.

	No, Mark... I will not. My noting time would drop dramatically.

    
    	You say that like it's a bad thing.
    

	Well...yes, it would be. :-)

    Get someone to code up the following pseudocode as a VMS com file,
    and we'll never know the difference:
    
       open notes
       if last two digits of note number = 69 then write 69snarf.txt
       close notes
       wait 2 mins
       goto start
    
    

    And I will refuse to acquiesce until this HLO monster is silenced!!

| <<< Note 433.75 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| And I will refuse to acquiesce until this HLO monster is silenced!!

	It's put away right now.....

    Glen, I think you should be a little more creative.  I think it's the
    monotony that's getting to everyone.

re .68

So you think that anyone but a Palestinian would think it biased?

Even a neutral observer?

/john

    glen:
    
    
    Ron

>So you think that anyone but a Palestinian would think it biased?
    
>Even a neutral observer?
    
     I'm relatively disinterested and impartial on the whole thing, but it
    seems slanted to show Israel in a poor light and the Palestinians as
    victims, thus legitimizing their terrorist acts as self-defense. That
    doesn't exactly ring true to me.

Disinterested?  You mean Levesque wasn't originally Levine?

	Ron... I'm touched... :-)

    
    Tell us something we didn't already know 8^)!
    

    
    	Ummm, he was touched by Ron?
    

    Lookin' to get your cue Saganized?

U.S. District Court Judge Louis Stanton has ruled that the PLO must stand
trial in the $1.9 billion civil suit filed by the family of Leon Klinghofer,
killed by Youssef al-Magied al-Molqi aboard the Achille Lauro in 1985.

/john

ISRAEL PLANS MAJOR SETTLEMENT IN EAST JERUSALEM

Trouble Expected

In violation of international law and U.N. security council resolutions,
and ignoring protests from Western governments, the Israeli government has
opted to go ahead with a massive Jewish housing project in occupied east
Jerusalem.

Homes for 20,000 Jewish settlers are to be built at Har Homa, known to
Arabs as Jabal Abu Ghneim, a hillside southeast of Jerusalem.  Bulldozers
are expected to start work in about two weeks.

Ephraim Inbar, the director of the Begin-Sadat Centre for Strategic
Studies, called for the bombing of the new Palestinian airfield in Gaza and
the reconquest of territory recently handed back by Israel if there were
Palestinian riots against the new project.

Peace advocates have asked the Israeli Supreme Court to stop the project.
Arab nations have called for a Security Council meeting to discuss the
project.

/john

Is this open land, or are there existing occupants who will have their 
property taken, houses destroyed, etc?

While this is open land, there is a desperate need for Arab housing, but
permits to build are not being granted.

Through a policy of expropriation, East Jerusalem, which was 90% owned by
Arabs at the end of the 1967 war, is now 87% under the control of the
Israeli government.

(See http://www2.ari.net/fmep/)

/john

Paragraph 6 of Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention (1949) on
Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War states, "The occupying power
shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into
territories it occupies."

"The expropriation or confiscation of land, the construction of housing on 
such land, the demolition or confiscation of buildings, including those 
having historic or religious significance, and the application of Israeli 
law to occupied portions of the city are detrimental to our common 
interests in [Jerusalem].  The United States considers that the part of 
Jerusalem that came under the control of Israel in the June war, like other 
areas occupied by Israel, is governing the rights and obligations of an 
occupying Power.  Among the provisions of international law which bind 
Israel, as they would bind any occupier, are the provisions that the 
occupier has no right to make changes in laws or in administration other 
than those which are temporarily necessitated by his security interests, 
and that an occupier may not confiscate or destroy private property.  The 
pattern of behavior authorized under the Geneva Convention and 
international law is clear: the occupier must maintain the occupied area as 
intact and unaltered as possible, without interfering with the customary 
life of the area, and any changes must be necessitated by the immediate 
needs of the occupation.  I regret to say that the actions of Israel in the 
occupied portion of Jerusalem present a different picture, one which gives 
rise to understandable concern that the eventual disposition of East 
Jerusalem may be prejudiced, and that the private rights and activities of 
the population are already being affected and altered.

"My Government regrets and deplores this pattern of activity, and it has so 
informed the Government of Israel on numerous occasions since June 1967.  
We have consistently refused to recognize those measures as having anything 
but a provisional character and do not accept them as affecting the 
ultimate status of Jerusalem.  . .  ."

U.S. Permanent Representative to the United Nations Charles Yost, UN 
Security Council, July 1, 1969

Of course, much of the property in East Jerusalem was Jewish-owned until
it was seized by the Arabs.  I attended services at a synagogue in the
so-called Moslem Quarter in 1987.  This synagogue had remained relatively
unscathed from the time in became inaccessible to Jews in 1948 until 1967
only because the Arab caretaker was sympathetic to Jews.  Many other Jewish
sites were destroyed by Arabs.  For instance, the Jordanian authorities
used headstones from Jewish cemeteries to pave roads.

The Government has just settled a lawsuit in which the Commerce Department
had sued the Justice Department, the Air Force, and a civilian contractor
for violating a law which prohibits compliance with Saudi Arabia's boycott
of Jews.

The Air Force had specified in a contract approved by the Justice Department
that their contractor, CACI Inc., would not hire any Jews for a project
which required sending contractors to Saudi Arabia.

At least one Jewish worker was denied employment on the contract and
received a cash settlement.

CACI paid a fine of $15,000 and signed a statement acknowledging that it
had been mistaken to follow an order from a federal government agency on
the assumption that the order was legal.

Fines against company officials and the Air Force and Justice Department
employees involved in the case were suspended as part of the settlement.

/john

    Imagine that...the federal government complying with a bigoted
    nation!!!

	A Jordanian soldier in a watch tower on the Jordanian
	island of Naharayim in the Jordan river (to which
	Israelis have access under the 1974 peace accord)
	opened fire today with an automatic weapon into a
	group of Israeli junior high school girls, killing
	seven and wounding six before being overpowered by
	other Jordanian soldiers.

    
    	Brave man, eh ?
    
    

	The Israeli Housing Minister has announced that bulldozers
	will begin clearing land in occupied East Jerusalem for
	the new Jewish settlement that Prime Minister Netanyahu
	has vowed to build.

	Last week the United States vetoed an otherwise unanimous
	Security Council resolution demanding that Israel abide by
	the Geneva Convention on occupied territories and stop
	plans to build in the Palestinian portions of Jerusalem.

	The General Assembly, where the United States has no veto,
	is expected to overwhelmingly pass a motion demanding a
	cease to the construction.

By a vote of 130 in favour, to 2 against (Israel and United States), with 2
abstentions (Federated States of Micronesia and Marshall Islands), the
Assembly confirmed that all Israeli actions that purport to alter the status
of Jerusalem are invalid. The Assembly called upon all parties to continue
their negotiations within the Middle East peace process on its agreed basis
and the timely implementation of the agreements reached (see Annex).



                                                               13 March 1997

United Nations Press Release
GA/9225

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

GENERAL ASSEMBLY CALLS ON ISRAEL TO REFRAIN FROM SETTLEMENT ACTIVITY,
EXPRESSES DEEP CONCERN AT RECENT DECISION TO BUILD IN EAST JERUSALEM

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resolution, Adopted by Vote of 130-2-2, Confirms Israeli Actions Purporting
to Alter Status of Jerusalem Invalid

The General Assembly this afternoon, expressing deep concern at the decision
of Israel to initiate new settlement activities in the Jabal Abu Ghneim area
in East Jerusalem, called upon Israel to refrain from all such actions,
which alter the facts on the ground and pre-empt the final status
negotiations on Jerusalem.

By a vote of 130 in favour, to 2 against (Israel and United States), with 2
abstentions (Federated States of Micronesia and Marshall Islands), the
Assembly confirmed that all Israeli actions that purport to alter the status
of Jerusalem are invalid. The Assembly called upon all parties to continue
their negotiations within the Middle East peace process on its agreed basis
and the timely implementation of the agreements reached (see Annex).

The representative of Israel said the draft resolution was one-sided and
biased. It singled out Israel and was detrimental to the Middle East peace
process. He added that the murder of six schoolgirls and their teacher in
the Jordan Valley today reinforced Israel's belief that the only way to
promote peace in the Middle East was through direct talks.

The representative of the United States said the decision by Israel to begin
construction in East Jerusalem ran counter to the achievements of the
parties to date and undermined the trust needed for successful negotiations,
particularly in the permanent status talks. Nevertheless, the United Nations
was not the appropriate forum for addressing the current issues before the
parties. The international community should express support for the
achievements of the parties to date and respect their commitment to work
together towards a common goal without the interference of outside parties,
he added.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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General Assembly Plenary - 1a - Press Release GA/9225 93rd Meeting (PM) 13
March 1997

The Permanent Observer for Palestine, while expressing gratitude for the
overwhelming support given to the resolution, said that if Israel began
construction on the settlement in East Jerusalem, he would again return to
the Security Council to request action.

Statements in explanation of vote were also made by the representatives of
Norway, Lebanon, Peru, Bolivia, Canada and Syria.

The representatives of Netherlands (on behalf of the European Union) and
Jordan made statements concerning the deaths of the Israeli schoolchildren
in the Jordan Valley today.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Assembly Work Programme

The General Assembly met this afternoon to take up a draft resolution on
Israeli settlement activities in the occupied Palestinian territory, in
particular in occupied East Jerusalem (document A/51/L.68).

The Assembly met in urgent session on Wednesday, 12 March, at the request of
the Arab Group of States and the countries of the Non-Aligned Movement. The
meeting followed the failure of the Security Council on 7 March to adopt a
draft resolution that would have expressed deep concern about Israel's
decision to build a 6,500 unit housing complex in the Jabal Abu Ghneim area
of East Jerusalem. It would have called on Israel to refrain from any
settlement activity that would alter the facts on the ground, pre-empting
negotiation on the final status of Jerusalem. It was not adopted due to a
negative vote by a permanent member of the Council, the United States.

The draft text before the Assembly would have it express concern at the
decision of the Government of Israel to initiate new settlement activities
in the Jabal Abu Ghneim area in East Jerusalem, as well as other recent
measures that encourage or facilitate new settlement activities. Stressing
the illegality of such settlement activities, the Assembly would confirm
that all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel
which purport to alter the status of Jerusalem, including expropriation of
land and properties thereon, are invalid and cannot change that status.

By the draft, the Assembly would call upon the Israeli authorities to
refrain from all actions or measures, including settlement activities, which
alter the facts on the ground, pre-empting the final status negotiations,
and have negative implications for the Middle East peace process. It would
also call upon Israel, the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by its
legal obligations and responsibilities under the Geneva Convention relative
to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949,
which is applicable to all the territories occupied by Israel since 1967.

While urging the parties to fulfil their obligations, including under the
agreements already reached, the Assembly would call upon them to continue
their negotiations within the Middle East peace process on its agreed basis
and the timely implementation of the agreements reached.

The draft is sponsored by Afghanistan, Algeria, Austria, Bahrain, Belgium,
Brazil, Colombia, Cuba, Cyprus, Democratic People's Republic of Korea,
Denmark, Djibouti, Egypt, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, India,
Indonesia, Ireland, Italy, Jordan, Kuwait, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Malta,
Mauritania, Morocco, Namibia, Netherlands, Oman, Pakistan, Portugal, Qatar,
Saudi Arabia, Spain, Sudan, Sweden, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates, United
Kingdom and Viet Nam.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

General Assembly Plenary - 4 - Press Release GA/9225 93rd Meeting (PM) 13
March 1997

Action on Draft Text

Introducing the draft resolution on Israeli settlement activities in the
occupied Palestinian territory, NUGROHO WISNUMURTI (Indonesia) said
Bangladesh, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brunei Darussalam, China, Guyana,
Liechtenstein, Maldives, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, The former Yugoslav
Republic of Macedonia, Turkey, United Republic of Tanzania, Yemen, Cambodia
and Comoros were added to the list of co-sponsors.

He said speaker after speaker in yesterday's debate had rejected the Israeli
settlement decision as against international law and in contradiction to the
relevant United Nations resolutions. It was not in concert with the
agreements already reached in the peace process between the two parties. The
Assembly must pronounce itself on the issue, following the Security
Council's inability to take action. The co-sponsors regard the text as
reasonable and balanced. The adoption of the resolution would be a real
contribution to the peace process.

In explanation of vote before the vote, DAVID PELEG (Israel) said the draft
resolution was one-sided and biased. It singled out Israel and was
detrimental to the Middle East peace process. He would vote against the
draft and he called on Member States who supported the peace process to do
the same.

The murder of six schoolgirls and their teacher in the Jordan valley today
reinforced Israel's belief that the only way to promote peace in the Middle
East was to support the political process through direct talks, he said.
Needless debates far removed from the realities of the region had never
contributed to settling the contentious issues between Israel and its Arab
neighbours. It was difficult to comprehend why the countries who wished to
play a more active role in the Middle East peace process were rushing to
support and even co-sponsor such a blatantly one-sided resolution.

HANS JACOB BIORN LIAN (Norway) said his country had attempted to facilitate
cooperation between the Palestinian and Israeli peoples and leadership. It
was, therefore, concerned at current developments and had urged the Israeli
Government to reconsider its recent settlements decision. Norway would
support today's draft resolution. Nevertheless, the parties themselves must
resolve outstanding issues. The signing of the Hebron Protocol had been a
step in that direction. They should respect both the letter and spirit of
the Oslo agreements. Norway stood ready to help them reach the important
goal of peace in the Middle East.

HICHAM HAMDAN (Lebanon) said Israel's settlement decision violated
international law and the Fourth Geneva Convention. He had hoped that
today's draft would provide that Israel's decision also violated the
foundations of the peace process under the Madrid formula, which was rooted
in the relevant

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General Assembly Plenary - 5 - Press Release GA/9225 93rd Meeting (PM) 13
March 1997

resolutions of the Security Council and the principle of land for peace.
Israel had taken its decision to build the new settlement despite the strong
opposition of the Arab side. Israel still failed to acknowledge that East
Jerusalem was subject to the provisions of Security Council resolution 242
(1967).

Israel's policies were responsible for the acts of violence in the region,
resulting in an increasing number of innocent victims, he said. The United
Nations represented the conscience of the world, protecting the vulnerable
against oppressors. It was regrettable that today's resolution had not been
adopted by the Security Council, owing to a veto by one of its permanent
members.

FERNANDO GUILLEN (Peru) said his country felt bound to support today's
resolution. The peace process should respect internationally recognized
boundaries. Treaty and agreement provisions should be respected. It was
important and essential to refrain from any act of violence and to maintain
peace.

The draft resolution was adopted by a vote of 130 in favour to 2 against
(Israel, United States), with 2 abstentions (Federated States of Micronesia,
Marshall Islands).

BILL RICHARDSON (United States) said his country shared the concerns
expressed by many States with respect to the current decision regarding
construction in East Jerusalem. That decision to commence construction ran
contrary to the progress and achievements of the parties to date. It was not
helpful to the peace process. It undermined the trust and confidence needed
for successful negotiations, particularly with respect to the talks on
permanent status, including such issues as Jerusalem and settlements. It was
essential that the parties do nothing to pre-empt the results of forthcoming
negotiations.

Despite the useful role the United Nations could play and had played in
promoting Middle East peace, it was not the appropriate forum for addressing
the current issues now under negotiation between the parties. Despite
political controversy, the parties had reached agreement on Hebron, and
Israel had announced the first phase of its further redeployment from the
West Bank. That represented the first step in a three-phase project, and it
was hoped Israel would do more in the subsequent phases. Further
negotiations were also envisaged. The General Assembly ought not to inject
itself into that process.

He said the international community should reiterate its support for the
progress of the parties to date and respect their commitment to work
together towards their common goal -- a peaceful and prosperous Middle East
-- without the interference of outside parties. The Assembly had done just
that in its

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General Assembly Plenary - 6 - Press Release GA/9225 93rd Meeting (PM) 13
March 1997

annual resolution on the Middle East peace process, and it was the kind of
positive contribution the United Nations could make to peace in the region.

He also expressed condolences to the families for the horrific attack on
schoolgirls near the Jordan River today. Such actions were particularly
tragic. Violence could never be the answer. It could only produce more
victims.

EDGAR CAMACHO OMISTE (Bolivia) stressed the inadmissibility of the
acquisition of territory by force. Bolivia supported the Middle East peace
process, and hoped the parties would achieve understandings that would
accommodate the interest of all concerned, enabling a just and lasting peace
to be established. Conditions must be created which engendered mutual trust
and the right climate for negotiations, in order to resolve the most serious
problems inherited from the past.

ROBERT R. FOWLER (Canada) said his country was deeply saddened by the attack
today against innocent Israeli schoolchildren and extended condolences to
their families. Canada had supported today's resolution. However, Canada
would have preferred if it had reflected the fact that both parties had
obligations with respect to the peace process.

He said all parties must refrain from unilateral actions which could
prejudice the final status negotiations. Israel's decision to build a new
settlement in East Jerusalem undermined the trust that was the very basis of
the peace process.

MIKHAIL WEHBE (Syria) said the Israeli decision was a violation of
international law. The draft should have mentioned other Israeli activities
in the occupied territories. Jerusalem was not under Israeli jurisdiction
and Israeli settlement activities were a major obstacle on the road to
peace. The United Nations was the appropriate forum to address issues of
international peace. If Israel wanted peace, it would have to pursue peace
on the basis of the Madrid process. The action by the United States in the
Security Council had given a green light to Israeli settlement activities.
Syria aspired to peace in the region, a peace based on equality.

AHMED OULD SID'AHMED (Mauritania) said his country would have voted in
favour of the resolution had it been able to do so.

JEAN RAVOU-AKII (Vanuatu) said his country would have voted in favour of the
resolution had it been able to do so.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

General Assembly Plenary - 7 - Press Release GA/9225 93rd Meeting (PM) 13
March 1997

NASSER AL-KIDWA, Permanent Observer for Palestine, expressed gratitude to
the supporters of the resolution, particularly to the 57 States who had
voted for such a resolution for the first time. It was a clear and nearly
unanimous position, which called on Israel to stop its plans to build in
Jabal Abu Ghneim and other such activities. There was a central role for the
United Nations to play in such a situation, especially when a Member State
violated international law and failed to abide by its agreements in the
peace process. If Israel went ahead with the settlement construction next
week, it would go against the will of the international community and
international law. The resolution was a new opportunity to help rebuild the
peace process.

If the construction plans were implemented by Israel, he said he would
return to the Security Council to call for action. It was his hope that the
Council would then act unanimously on the matter. He expressed opposition to
what had happened in the Jordan Valley today. A just and comprehensive peace
was the only solution to the situation in the Middle East.

NICOLAAS H. BIEGMAN (Netherlands), on behalf of the European Union,
expressed shock and grief at the loss of innocent life in the Jordan Valley
today.

ZEID RA'AD ZEID AL-HUSSEIN (Jordan) expressed his Government's sorrow over
the terrible tragedy in the Jordan Valley. Jordan had condemned the act of
one individual and extended condolences to the families of the victims.

(annex follows)

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General Assembly Plenary - 8 - Press Release GA/9225 93rd Meeting (PM) 13
March 1997

General Assembly Plenary Press Release GA/9225 93rd Meeting (PM) 13 March
1997

ANNEX

Vote on Israeli Settlement Activities

The draft resolution on Israeli settlement activities in the occupied
Palestinian territory, in particular in occupied East Jerusalem (document
A/51/L.68) was adopted by a recorded vote of 130 in favour to 2 against,
with 2 abstentions:

In favour: Afghanistan, Algeria, Andorra, Angola, Antigua-Barbuda,
Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Austria, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh,
Belarus, Belgium, Belize, Benin, Bhutan, Bolivia, Botswana, Brazil, Brunei
Darussalam, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Cambodia, Canada, Chile, China,
Colombia, Comorros, Costa Rica, C�te d'Ivoire, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech
Republic, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Denmark, Djibouti, Egypt,
El Salvador, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Guyana,
Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran, Ireland, Italy, Jamaica,
Japan, Jordan, Kazakstan, Kenya, Kuwait, Lao People's Democratic Republic,
Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg,
Malawi, Malaysia, Maldives, Malta, Mauritius, Mexico, Mongolia, Morocco,
Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nigeria,
Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines,
Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Republic of Korea, Romania, Russian Federation,
Samoa, San Marino, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Singapore, Slovak
Republic, Slovenia, Solomon Island, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sudan,
Suriname, Swaziland, Sweden, Syria, Tajikistan, Thailand, The former
Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey,
Uganda, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, United Republic of
Tanzania, Uruguay, Venezuela, Viet Nam, Yemen, Zimbabwe.

Against: Israel, United States.

Abstaining: Federated States of Micronesia, Marshall Islands.

Absent: Albania, Barbados, Cameroon, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Fiji, Gabon, Mali,
Monaco, Niger, Palau, Panama, Rwanda, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia,
Turkmenistan, Zaire, Zambia.

* *** *

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

By a vote of 13 in favor, one abstention (Costa Rica), and one veto (the U.S.),
the Security Council has failed to adopt a resolution demanding that Israel
immediately stop construction of the Jabal Abu Ghneim settlement in East
Jerusalem, as well as all other Israeli settlement activity elsewhere in the
occupied territories.

I am reminded of Chamberlain's acquiescence when Hitler invaded the
Sudetenland.

/john

    /john:
    
    Socialists rarely change their stripes.  Do you really believe in the
    long term that Arafat wants longlasting peace??
    
    Considering the volatile situation over there, I see little compelling
    reason for Netenyahu to capitulate.
    
    -Jack

    Why did Costa Rica Abstain?  Abstention in the Security Council is
    usually for those that are a party to a dispute.

    > Considering the volatile situation over there, I see little compelling
    > reason for Netenyahu to capitulate.
    
    Cognitive dissonance alert.
    
    Netanyahu doesn't have to "capitulate".  He merely has to stop building
    more illegal settlements on expropriated land.  And the compelling
    reason to do so is that proceeding with the illegal construction is
    seen by the rest of the world, and rightly, as a violation of what
    Israel signed in the Oslo accords, and an unbearable provocation to 
    the Palestinians; who've been living with housing shortages and no
    permission to build in this and nearby areas for *decades*.  Netanyahu
    looks like he is deliberately causing a resumption of the intifadeh.
    
    There's a parallel, here.  A decade ago, nobody would ever have
    predicted that Mandela would have the energy and the stature, much less
    the opportunity, to play such a major role in South Arica's transition. 
    We are all incredibly lucky not to be reading more stories of the
    burning of Soweto and the other townships, if not of full-scale descent
    into anarchy, with a racial civil war.  Mandela would not have had such
    a chance without men of goodwill among his opponents, though- and we
    appreciate and honor the choices they made in surrenduring apartheid.
    
    A decade ago, few would have predicted Arafat would ever have the
    opportunities he's had recently, under Oslo.  Netanyahu is *not*
    looking like he'll be honored in the future as a man of goodwill.
    
    DougO

    RE: .151

>I am reminded of Chamberlain's acquiescence when Hitler invaded the
>Sudetenland.

    You're right.  Every time that Israel has surrendered land for peace
    there has been no peace.

    In another stream you indicate that the terrorist bombing is a direct
    result of this settlement.  How many people were killed in terrorist
    acts when Israel was making the peace deal with Arafat?  I guess
    Israeli actions should be blamed for those bombings as well.

    The bottom line problem is that you have too many people wanting to
    occupy the same land with various groups denying the other the right to
    exist.  Arafat may be trying to secure his place in history by making
    peace with Israel, but he cannot control the Palestinian people.  There
    will always be terrorist acts against Israel until Israel ceases to
    exist.

    -- Dave

.151:

Well, you miss the point.  Yahoo does something unacceptable to the
Palestinians.  Never mind that it breaks international law, 'cause the US
can always be counted on to see to it that the UN doesn't move on it. 
Yahoo continues to turn the screws until the Palestinians do something...
unpleasant.

Now, Yahoo and his cronies stand up and say "See who we're dealing with?"
and run for the moral high ground.

Terrorism is often implemented by folk who think they have no other
recourse, and was something that the Israelis were not above before they
officially had their own state.  Now, they can be "above" that because they
have their police and armies to enforce their will.

Jeez.  I'm starting to sound like a commie.

What people who haven't seen an invading army bulldoze homes to the ground
don't understand is that Israeli bulldozers are just as efficient weapons
of mass terrorism as bombs.

No.  More efficient.  They'll demoralize the occupied population without
making it completely impossible for the United States to continue to
support Yahoo.

/john

Wuz just being sarcastic, /john.  We're actually in total agreement about
this one.

    Dawn:
    
    It is not all that cut and dry.  Terrorism is not only motivated by
    last resorts...it can also be rooted in a religion, which I believe is
    the case in the middleast.  
    
    One of the convenient doctrines concocted by the founder of Islam was
    the convenient holy war...where any person who gives his life for the
    cause of Allah would be in paradise.  What greater way to get to
    paradise than to take poor guys in wheelchairs and throw them off a
    cruise ship in the Meditteranian.  After all, America is the great
    Satan and Arafat said he would not rest until Israel was plowed into
    the sea.
    
    -Jack

One of the convenient doctrines used to dehumanize a race they don't
understand is "They aren't like us/they don't have our values."

Well, excuse me, but the Israelis found terrorism to be a perfectly
reasonable means to an end.  Now that they're in power, they're all high
and mighty about it.

As far as the Palenstinians are concerned:  If you back a cat into the
corner, don't be surprised what happens.  Our claims that this is just what
"Those dang A-rabs do" are rather hollow when that's one of the few
recourses left to them.

This is a tossing-the-first-rock scenario.  If they were treated fairly and
with respect, then we'd be in a better position to be making blanket
statements about what they do.  On the other hand, if someone came and
bulldozed your house, revoked your citizenship and called you unfit for
membership in society, I suggest your reaction might be considered
"extreme" by those who're in power.

I don't get it, and I really am hoping someone will straighten me out on this,
because I really am missing something here.

This is a tangent to the tangential discussion taking place in the boob-toob
note.

I was raised believing in the righteousness of the Israeli state, and the older
I get, the more confused I am about why I ever believed in that in the first
place.

As I understand it, long, long ago, the Jews were thrown out of Israel, which
indeed is a bad thing.  Since then, they've suffered being thrown out of just
about everywhere else they've been, which is an equally bad (if not worse)
thing.

This much I understand.  What I do not understand is why throwing the
Palestinians out of their own country after WW-II rights this wrong.  As far as
I can tell, it's another wrong.

Yes, it was the forebearers to the Palestinians (before they even invented
Islam) who were responsible for the original sin, but making them pay now seems
an awful lot like holding a grudge for a few hundred generations.  My
admittedly biased Christian upbringing sort of cringes at the notion of making
the son pay for the sins of the father.

After all, none of the original perpetrators lost their homes when the Israeli
state was setup, but a whole bunch of innocent people did.  It's sorta like us
deciding that we have to give all our land and houses back to the Indians,
because our forefathers were such jerks for throwing them out years ago.  10
points out of 10 for hearts in the right place, but not exactly pratical, or
fair to those who weren't there and didn't do this.

From where I sit, Israel seems intent on re-enacting all the sins foisted onto
them, but directing them at everyone else, and largely those who weren't really
responsible.  The oppressed has become the oppressor, and I'm feeling a bit
ashamed that my government has given them unquestioning support on this all
along (even after little Guffaws like the USS Liberty).

I don't like what the Palestinians have been doing lately, but for the life of
me, I can't think of anything better to do, nor can I make any assurances that
I'd act any differently were I in their position.

So, what gives here?

    The pre-state of Israeli's blew up the King David Hotel with a large loss of
    British military (and civilian life I believe)

 It all goes back to Biblical times, and there is nothing that man can do
 to resolve the whole mess, in my opinion of course.  It will all be settled
 at some point in the future.


 Jim

> So, what gives here?
 
  Nothing. And that is the problem.

  Two people can not occupy the same space. Two people want the same
  space. Two people have wronged each other over the parlay of that space.
  
  And now the dog continues to chase its tail because it doesn't know
  any better.

  Unfortunately, the only practical solution is a rather vulgar one.

  Doug.

  

  if the USA had not vetoed the resolution, nothing would have resulted

  bb

    Dawn:
    
    One important thing to keep in mind here is that there has been
    squabbling and warring since the days of Joshua and Caleb.  
    
    The key to the whole conflict is that this is NOT a land issue, but
    more a covenant issue.  Contrast these two promises...one made to
    Abraham and his decendents and the other to Ishmael and his decendents.
    
    To Israel....Genesis 12
    
 Z   The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your
 Z   father's household and go to the land I will show you.
 Z   I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make
 Z   your name great, and you will be a blessing. 
 Z   I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse;
 Z   and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." 
    
    To the Arabs....Genesis 16
    
Z    And the angel of the Lord said unto Hagar, I will multiply thy seed
Z    exceedingly; it shall not be numbered for multitude.  And the angel of
Z    the Lord said unto her, behold thou art with child and shall bear a
Z    son, and thou shall call his name Ishmael, for the Lord has heard your
Z    affliction.  And he will be as a wild man; his hand will be against
Z    every man, and every man's hand against him.  And he shall dwell in the
Z    presence of his bretheren.
    
    Ishmael and Isaac are the forefathers of both the Arab and Hebrew
    nations respectively.  They are both from the seed of Abraham.  You are
    seeing prophecy fulfilled today.

    But, since the USA did veto the resolution, the USA put itself on
    record as being the sole supporters of a murderous regime?

  well, that's the spin some put on it.  albright says we were merely
 being pragmatic, recognizing the reality that only direct negotiations
 between the parties can have any useful result

  bb

    It seems to me that the Israelis are in the position of having the most
    power, and aren't really that interested in negotiating.  They're doing
    what they want to, and badmouthing anyone who objects.

    RE: .162

>What I do not understand is why throwing the
>Palestinians out of their own country after WW-II rights this wrong.

    If I recall correctly, the Palestinians didn't have their own country. 
    They were the favorite whipping boy of the Arab world until the Jews
    and Israel came along.  I don't have a pre-WWII map handy, but I
    believe that Jordan was much larger before modern Israel.

    RE: .161

>   The pre-state of Israeli's blew up the King David Hotel with a large loss of
>   British military (and civilian life I believe)

    It is interesting how things go full circle.  Begin went from terrorist
    to head of state and now Arafat appears to be on the road to do the
    same.

    -- Dave

>    But, since the USA did veto the resolution, the USA put itself on
>    record as being the sole supporters of a murderous regime?

Murderous regime?

    Like I said, this problem has gone on for millenia.  It isn't a land
    issue!

If it hasn't been obvious since whenever (and it should have been), it should
be obvious now, that the Israelis don't ever intend to give anything of
substance. The so-called "peace talks" are just lip service and stalling 
tactics.

    And by your assessment, the Palestinians are eager to get on with the
    peace process?

  why is that obvious ?  the Israelis have given substance in the
 past : the Sinai, west bank and Gaza.  They have offered Golan.

  but of course, they have also asked something in return in each case,
 and initially, the price is high

  bb

Nothing of substance?  How about Hebron?

They were forced, kicking and screaming, to carry out that part of their
earlier agreement.

It must be obvious to the Palestinians that the only way to get Israel to
agree to negotiate on East Jerusalem is to make them kick and scream there,
too.

/john

P.S.: Some noodnik in the BAGELS conference thinks that the partition plan
of 1947 gave the West Bank to Israel.  Little history and geography lesson
necessary.  See http://bulova.zko.dec.com/group/covert/partition.jpg

> the Israelis have given substance in the past : the Sinai

Yes.

> They have offered Golan.

They have?? I thought they were at an impasse there.

    Even if the Palestinians and Israelis forge some sort of lasting peace
    agreement, others will undermine it to ensure it fails.  We still have
    plenty of opportunity to become embroiled in a protracted land war
    in the near future.  

>They were forced, kicking and screaming, to carry out that part of their
>earlier agreement.

 This is truely funny! Israel isn't forced by anyone to do anything.
 They are truely an independant force. However, the people of Israel
 have been wanting peace and have supported land for pease and so the
 country moved in that direction.

 What was the result? More terror and less personal security.

 Since that tactic did not produce the desired results (peace) I suspect
 they see no more reason to pursue that tactic.

 Doug
 

>You take West Bank, We take East Jerusalem ...

Neither the West Bank nor East Jerusalem are Israel's to take or give.
     
/john

    
    	That could change in a week or two, couldn't it?
    

re .180

Oh, and the "more terror" is not the result of agreeing to Palestinian
control of the Arab portions of Hebron.

The "more terror" is the result of Israel's insistence on continued building
in occupied territory in violation of international law.

Deliberate violence against civilians is, of course, also a violation of
international law, and cannot be condoned.  But its causes are plain.

/john

    RE: .171

>>    But, since the USA did veto the resolution, the USA put itself on
>>    record as being the sole supporters of a murderous regime?
>
>Murderous regime?

    Gerald, start with the logic that Israel doesn't have a right to exist
    nor does it have a right to occupy the land it currently exists on and
    the term "murderous regime" becomes easier to use.  If Israel doesn't
    have a right to exist then the 6-day war was pure murder on the part of
    Israel.

    RE: .179

>    Even if the Palestinians and Israelis ...

    Who speaks of the Palestinians?  The Palestinians are no more united in
    views and outlook than Americans are, perhaps even less so.  Even if
    Israel and Arafat/PLO reach an agreement, there are plenty of terrorist
    cells to make car bombs.

    -- Dave

> Neither the West Bank nor East Jerusalem are Israel's to take or give.

I see you missed my point .... 

>The "more terror" is the result of Israel's insistence on continued building
>in occupied territory in violation of international law.

Tit for Tat ...

It all depends on where you choose to draw the line ....

I seem to recall a large number of israelies having to abandon their homes
for peace ....  

But the palestinians want to take everything, while giving nothing, including
peace. At some point, the Israelies will stop playing this game. The new
construction may be just such a signal ....

The only encouragement I see is palestinian police forces working side by side
with Israeli police to control the crowds.

In the end, two people cannot occupy the same space, and someone will have to
agree to move, or be moved ...


Doug

Re: Murderous regime

Without even questioning Israel's right to exist, their "100 eyes for an
eye" policy in dealing with the Palestinians still speaks volumes to me. 
Every time there's a bombing, they go out and kill a few hundred
Palestinians (largely civilians, although that's a rough term when you've
pissed off enough civilians that they're ready to enlist for terrorist
actions) in reprisal.

If we were going to stack bodies, the ones killed by Israel's forces would
far outshadow the Palestinian's stack.

Re: About land:

Maybe it isn't about land, but land fuels it.  Claiming a millenia old
conflict does not excuse either side for their behavior, and I don't see
why our country would want to support any of them.

    .173
    
    What are they supposed to give up?  They don't have room enough for
    their own population as it is.  Strategically, they've given up too
    much land already - especially when you consider that the "holy war"
    against Israel is not over.  The Arabs will not be happy until Israel
    is is completely destroyed.
    
    Peace for land didn't work in Biblical days, nor will it work today.
    
    
    -steve

>What are they supposed to give up?  They don't have room enough for
>their own population as it is.

You obviously haven't been there.  Israel is a country the size of New
Jersey with a population of 5.5 million.  (New Jersey is sparsely
populated except close to NYC and Philadelphia and has 8 million).

/john

>Every time there's a bombing, they go out and kill a few hundred
>Palestinians (largely civilians, although that's a rough term when you've
>pissed off enough civilians that they're ready to enlist for terrorist
>actions) in reprisal.

Where do you get this crap?  How many Palestinians have been killed since
this bombing?  How many were killed after last year's suicide bombings?

How do you suggest dealing with terrorists who deliberately set up their HQ
in civilian areas?

    >You obviously haven't been there.
    
    Well, NO, I haven't.  With the steady influx of Jewish immigrants
    coming out of other countries, I imagine that the population will
    continue to rise.   
    
    What date is the 5.5 million figure from?  With the heavy immigration
    over the last few years, this figure might be out of date already.

re .188:

Of course Israel is rather desert-ish so it really can't support as many people
as New Jersey theoretically could, at least if they don't want to be dependent
on imports for food.

(yes I know they've done wonders with irrigation..)

>    What date is the 5.5 million figure from?

1996.

/john

  New Jersey is nothing like Israel.  In Israel there are tough guys, and
 violence.  It is surrounded by people who dislike it and its inhabitants.

  bb

re .193:

Agagagagagag!

    
    And, as far as I know, Vanessa Redgrave doesn't have a problem about
    New Jersey.
    
    

Z    Of course Israel is rather desert-ish so it really can't support as
Z    many people
Z    as New Jersey theoretically could, at least if they don't want to be
Z    dependent on imports for food.
    
    Israel is currently the 4th largest producer of citrus in the world.  
    Like you said, they've done wonders with irrigation.  
    
    -Jack

  you could call them the garden state...

  bb

    The David Ben Garden State has a nice ring to it.
    
    (i know, i know but it's still early)

Today, meeting in Emergency Session, the United Nations General Assembly
has again passed a resolution calling on Israel to stop its illegal
construction activities in occupied East Jerusalem and in other occupied
territories.

Passing 134 to 3 with 11 abstentions, the resolution demands "immediate and
full cessation of the construction ... and of all other Israeli settlement
activities."

Voting against were Israel, the United States, and Micronesia.

All of the EU countries voted in favor of the resolution except for
Germany, which abstained.

WHEN WILL ISRAEL CEASE ITS ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES?

/john

Israel today approved the expansion of the Jewish settlement Efrat south of
Bethlehem in occupied Palestine, in defiance of international law which
forbids the expansion of civilian populations in occupied territory as
well as recent UN resolutions condemning all Israeli construction in the
formative Palestinian state.

The land for the Efrat expansion is part of some 1,000 acres confiscated
by Israel in the late 1980s and early 1990s from the nearby villages of
Al-Khadr and Irtas.

/john

Israel Radio reported today that Israel intends to destroy about 500
Palestinian homes in the Hebron area of the West Bank.

These buildings were built without building permits, which are virtually
impossible for Palestinians to get under Israel's refusal to issue enough
permits to keep up with population growth.

/john

  Yassar Arafat has stated in an interview that he supports enforcement
  of the law forbidding the sale of occupied land to Israelis.

  While I remain opposed to the death penalty in all cases, I'd like to
  point out that if a similar situation occurred in the United States,
  Article III Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution would require a charge
  of treason, including the possibility of the imposition of the death
  penalty.

  If an occupying foreign power (holding, let's say, Delaware) sought to
  legitimize and make permanent its occupation by arranging for its
  citizens to buy land from Delaware's Americans and move in, those
  Americans who sold the land could rightly be charged under the U.S.
  Constitution with giving Aid and Comfort to the enemy.

  Until Israel and Palestine are at peace, the situation is identical.
  100% identical.

  /john

Of course, the so-called occupied territories don't belong to any state,
so it's a completely different situation.

I s'pose whether they belong to any state depends entirely on which state
you ask.

Jordan, which used to occupy the territories, has given up all claim to them.
What state would you suggest?

Don't we have a bunch of Palestinians running around saying it's part of
their land (and similarly, Israelis claiming it's part of theirs)?

Land <> State.

	This land is your land, this land is my land.

So, if the Israelis aren't claiming that this land belongs to their state,
they have no problems giving it up, right?

I believe the official Israeli government position is that everything (with
the possible exception of Jerusalem) is negotiable.

The only possible hope for peace is for Israel to withdraw from all of the
land it took in 1967 (with minor border adjustments) and for there to be an
special international zone consisting of the historic sites in Jerusalem.

Israel can declare its capital to be located in the Western portion of the
city (outside the international zone) and Palestine can declare its capital
to be located in the Eastern portion of the city (also outside the
international zone).

The final agreement must include an economic union between the two countries
and free travel.

/john

>The final agreement must include an economic union between the two countries
>and free travel.

 and all will be right with the world .... NOT!


Israel has been risking its security for the sake of peace far too long.
I suspect 'free travel' won't exist for at least two generations.

  where do I sign up for the free travel ?

  bb

Israel demolishes Arab house in east Jerusalem
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright � 1997 Agence France-Presse

JERUSALEM (May 28, 1997 5:55 p.m. EDT) - Israel demolished part of a
Palestinian home in east Jerusalem on Wednesday despite a reported
suspension in its policy of tearing down unlicensed Arab homes.

Soldiers demolished three rooms of an extension which Miryam Ashour
Al-Banna, 50, had built onto her family home in the Arab neighborhood of
Silwan below the old city's Al-Aqsa mosque compound.

They stopped when a court order came for halting the demolition, Banna told
AFP.

The demolition came three days after Israeli radio reported that the defense
ministry had decided to suspend its demolitions of Arab homes for fear of
antagonizing the Palestinians amid a deadlock in the peace process.

Banna said she had raised an appeal against demolition orders for the
extension eight months ago. The court was to hold a session on the appeal on
Wednesday morning, but the soldiers appeared at her door an hour before the
session.

"The officer refused to wait even 10 minutes to let us remove our things
from the addition," she told AFP, sitting among the rubble and broken
kitchen furnishings.

"I have three sons and 23 grandchildren in this home, I needed an addition
for myself to live in because I need some peace and quiet," she said.

Banna said she had not sought out a building permit "because the contractor
said not to bother, the Israelis never give permits in Silwan."

Silwan, a densely populated Arab quarter outside Jerusalem's old city, has
been the focus of Jewish settlers who have bought or attempted to seize
several homes in the neighborhood.

The Banna house lies some 20 meters away from a courtyard bought in 1991 by
Jewish settlers who have since built several rooms there.

"They build as much as they want and the army never bothers them. Why can
they build and I am forbidden?" she said.

Israel has demolished about 80 Palestinian homes since the start of the year
in east Jerusalem and parts of the West Bank which remain under its full
control.

The army has issued hundreds more demolition orders for structures it
considers illegal, but the defense ministry denied radio reports that it
planned to step up implementation to demolish 500 homes before the end of
this year.