Conference back40::soapbox

	Didn't he hit a couple of Homers or something? Hitting peoples is
bad... real bad..... maybe that's why he drank?

    
    Mike, at 100 he would be a little hard pressed to hitting a Nolan Ryan
    fastball!! Actually, he probably was the greatest home run hitter of
    all time. When he left baseball he had no other records to shoot for.
    
    Would have loved to see him face a Nolan Ryan, or a Sandy Koufax in
    their prime. It would be worth the price of admission.
    
    Mark

    
    
    
    Babe stole home base 10 times in his career.  A little known Babe Ruth
    fact.

    
    Also could drink like a fish, and probably never met a hot dog he
    didn't like.
    
    Mark

    absolutely the greatest.  see the article in this month's smithsonian
    magazine.
    
    what hitter since has AVERAGED over 40 homers a season for five years
    straight?  and at the end of his career, too - babe did it from '27 to
    '31.
    
    speculating that he wouldn't be able to hit a nolan ryan fastball is
    pure bull.  he had incredible reflexes and speed.  even with that beer
    belly he was a better athlete than most modern players - once he stole
    second standing up, and immediately thereafter stole third.  and, fwiw,
    they do not put slowpokes or sluggards in the outfield.
    
    modern players use bats weighing less than 40 ounces so they can swing
    fast.  the babe's was a 60-ouncer.

	My husband's grandfather, as a little tyke, used to play catch
	with Babe Ruth.  They were neighbors in the days before the
	Curse Of The Bambino.

    
    er Dick, please re-read my reply. I said at age 100 he would have a
    tough time hitting Ryan's fastball. I also said I would love to see the
    matchup between Ruth and Ryan. FWIW
    
    Mark

      Lets not forget that his lifetime batting average was (I think)
      in the .340's or that the guy was a 20 game a year pitcher for
      the Red Sox!!  His homerum per at bat ratio was the best!
    
      Was he the best ever?  Probably.  But, a case can be made for
      Willy Mays as he hit in Candlestick park all his career AND
      was a phenomenal fielder.  I also have to include Satchel Paige
      and Shoeless Joe Jackson.  Babe Ruth tried to emulate Shoeless
      Joe as far as how to hit is concerned.

    
>      Was he the best ever?  Probably.  But, a case can be made for
>      Willy Mays as he hit in Candlestick park all his career AND
>      was a phenomenal fielder.  I also have to include Satchel Paige
 

    Willie played for 6 years at the Polo Grounds in NY. Having grown
    up in the SF area, I feel priveleged to have seen Willie play many 
    times.



    Jim






    

    simple testimony... you think of the Babe when you think homers, not
    maris or aaron... and i don't mean to degrade either of the later.
    he hit his 714 homers in 22 seasons. i believe the 60 homer season was
    shorter than maris'. can someone confirm this?
    
    he's an icon. he was bigger than life while he was playing. he also was
    (probably) the first major player management blunder of the red sox
    that has now turned into a long standing tradition :-)
    
    Chip

    .10
    
    babe hit his 60 home runs in 158 games.  roger maris hit his 61 in 162
    games, having failed to hit no. 60 before the end of game 158, and i
    well remember the hooraw about it at the time.  because of the number
    of games involved, it was pretty much the opinion of the commentators
    that maris' record should be alongside babe's, not supplant it.  but
    then you open the can of worms about records made on plastic grass,
    where the ball scoots so much faster than it does than on real turf,
    and where you can't tailor the grass to make a slow infield grounder
    roll foul.  where do you draw the line about what is, or is not, a real
    record?

 The season was 154 games when Babe hit 60, 162 for Maris.





 Jim

      Thanks for the correction Jim!!  (Pssst...I won't ask your age!)

    Willie Mays and Roberto Clemente were both better than Babe Ruth.
    
    Mark.

    -1 based on what, pray tell?
    
       Chip

    Cuz I said so.

    Oooooooo, okay, okay. i shoulda never asked that on a monday...
    
     Chip

    Could Ruth hit a ball going 95 MPH?  He was hitting meatballs!

    If Ted Williams were not drafted would he have been better than the
    Babe? It would have added two or three years onto his baseball career.

  Ruth probably faced guys who could throw as fast as today's pitchers. The
difference is that today pitchers who throw 95mph fastballs also put a lot of
action on the ball as well as throwing things like sliders and forked finger
fastballs that do weird things around the plate. 

  Also, today just about every pitcher a batter has to face during a season can
either come with the heat or throw some pretty weird junk where as back in
Ruth's time a few guys could do those things but the rest of the pitchers were
not that great.

  As for Maris, he hit his 59th home run either in or just before his 154th
game so he was only off by one. He hit numbers 60 and 61 in the last 8 games.

  No question Ruth was great for his day. Most likely his biggest contribution
was that his popular appeal made everyone forget about the Chicago Black Sox
scandal of 1919 which went public in 1920, just about the time Ruth was being
sold to the Yankees. He was responsible for much of the popularity of baseball
in the middle half of this century.

  By the way, according to the Boston Globe Ruth himself claimed to be born
on Feb 7, 1894 but the press seemed to insist that he was born on Feb 6, 1895
and he went along.

  George

    
    
    Ruth was also walked more in his career than both Maris and Aaron
    combined.  Aaron had almost 4000 more at bats (lifetime) than Babe 
    did and Maris had 50 more at bats (in the 61 HR season) than Babe did
    in his 60 HR season.
    
    In terms of frequency with which he hit home runs Ruth averaged one out
    of every nine times at bat during his record setting season (1927).  He
    averaged slightly higher in 1920, but he was walked 158 times in the
    142 games he played that year.
    
    

    
    Ruth was walked 2056 times in his career (which is like not being
    allowed to bat for about 4 seasons).  Ruth also averaged two bases per
    hit over his 22 year career.  Ted Williams only was able to average
    that in one season throughout his career./
    
    
    Also remember, the pitchers could also use spitballs and docter the
    baseball in other ways that are not permitted today.  

    
    RE: .11
    
    Along with those facts, there's a little known one that Maris hit a
    homer during a game that was later rained out...
    

    
    re.23 - Andy, still a Yankee fan at heart.....

    
    Nope... not at heart...
    
     Always will be!! :) :)
    
    
    WIll always enjoy the thoughts of seeing Maris in right, Mantle in
    center and Berra in left...
    
    ahhhhhhh.. what an outfield!!!  :) :)
    

    i much preferred seeing berra behind the plate.  one of the best
    catchers i ever saw, possibly as good as munson.

    so Jack, how many of these meatball pitchers have you faced?
    
    sheesh, you can really pull a leg when you get a mind to...
    
    Chip

I was looking at an old Sports Illustrated last night that picked the 
All-Time All-Star baseball team.  This is from memory with misspellings:

Ty Cobb			LF
Jackie Robinson		2B
Babe Ruth		RF
Lou Gehrig		1B
Willie Mays		CF
Mike Schmitt		3B
Cal Ripkin, Jr.		SS
Mickey Cochrane		 C

Warren Spahn		SP
???			SP

Dennis Ekersley		RP

Casey Stengel		Mgr



Bebe Ruth as the greatest of all time.  Branch Rickey would be my choice
for owner.  Baseball has had lots of legends, but only two heroes:
Jackie robinson and Branch Rickey.

Jim

    
    RE: .26
    
    
    Agreed!!! :):)
    
    Although he held his own out in left field...
    
    He had an uncanny ability to play the caroms as Yaz did in
    Fenway...

RE                       <<< Note 284.28 by MSBCS::EVANS >>>

>Ty Cobb                  LF
>Jackie Robinson          2B
>Babe Ruth                RF
>Lou Gehrig               1B
>Willie Mays              CF
>Mike Schmitt             3B
>Cal Ripkin, Jr.          SS
>Mickey Cochrane          C

  I'd lead off with Mays, put Ted Williams in left, Johnny Bench behind the
plate and Honus Wagner at short.

  George

    .28
    
    i'd argue with sports illustrated and put brooks robinson at third. 
    they didn't call brooks the human vacuum cleaner for nothing - it was
    an absolute epiphany to watch him.
    
    for another starter you'd have to go a ways to better sandy koufax. 
    
    no quibble on the rest of their picks.

    Often overlooked is the fact that Babe was a superb LH pitcher and held
    WS records well into the 60's or 70's...can't remember which.  

  When pitching for the Red Sox against the Cubs in the 1918 World Series Ruth
set a record for consecutive scoreless innings. That record stood until it was
broken by Yankee pitcher Wighty Ford in the late 50's or early 60's. 

  In his last year with the Red Sox Ruth had a 2.00 ERA as a pitcher and lead
the league in home runs as a hitter.

  The owner of the Red Sox (Harry Frazie?) sold him and many of the other Red
Sox stars to the New York Yankees to raise money for his play "No No Nannett".

  George 

So, this Babe Ruth - was he a ball player, er what?

    great candy bar, Jack.

No, he was just my grandfather-in-law's neighbor
who used to play catch with him.  Not to mention
he could slam back the booze and put up quite a
shoutin' match with the wife, as Grampy told it.

I haven't heard this professional baseball part
of the story.  Sounds mighty interesting, though.

    Suggest fans read "The Babe" by Ken Creamer. Ruth partied hard, lots of 
    food, beer and hookers. I would bet most of today's overpaid whiney
    little pampered darlings would not have been able to keep up with this
    guy. Drink and party all night and play the next day. Sure enjoyed life
    to the hilt, and as often as possible.  As for second place, I have to
    agree with previous noters as it being Willie Mays. Check out Mays
    biography (can't remember the exact title). Seems Willie decided to
    hang it up after his last disappointing (to him) year with the Mets.
    If I remember correctly he "only had 17 homers and 20 stolen bases". 
    I really got a laugh out of that. Heck, with those numbers today he'd
    be a designated hitter for the Red Sox at well over a million per year.
    In fact, if on today's Red Sucks, he would be a "superstar". Would love 
    to meet Willie someday. 
    
    

    
    Ruth still holds the pitching record for the longest shutout in World
    Series history, a 14 inning 1-0 win when he pitched for Boston in the
    1916 world series.
    

| <<< Note 284.5 by SMURF::BINDER "gustam vitare" >>>



| they do not put slowpokes or sluggards in the outfield.

	Then what have most of the Red Sox outfielders been playing out there
for???? :-)

    .39
    
    the red sux are an imponderable.

    Re: 26
    
    	" Please don't embarrass the man by comparing him to Johnny Bench."

      You know...one guy whose numbers could put him up with these
      people is that guy for the White Sox - can't think of his
      name!

    RE: .41
    
    Johnny who???
    

RE:          <<< Note 284.21 by GRANPA::MWANNEMACHER "Space for rent" >>>

    
    
   > Ruth was also walked more in his career than both Maris and Aaron
   > combined.  Aaron had almost 4000 more at bats (lifetime) than Babe 
    


    He was such a dangerous hitter, he got intentional walks in batting 
    practice...



  Jim    
    

    What a bloody fuss about a game of rounders!!
    

RE          <<< Note 284.38 by GRANPA::MWANNEMACHER "Space for rent" >>>

>    Ruth still holds the pitching record for the longest shutout in World
>    Series history, a 14 inning 1-0 win when he pitched for Boston in the
>    1916 world series.
    
  1918,

  George

    
    
    
    The paper said 1916, George.  
    
    
    
    They had a birthday celebration down in Baltimore at Babe Ruth's
    birthplace.  They had a guy there who was a Ruth lookalike.  This guy
    was the spitting image of Babe.  Uncanny likeness to be sure.
    
    
    
    Mike

    	You can't easily and equitably compare various players throughout
    	history because conditions and rules changes create inassessible
    	variables.
    
    	I wonder how Ruth would have conducted his life, his training,
    	his off-field behaviors, etc., under today's public and media
    	scrutiny.  Perhaps he would have had a better training ethic, and
    	would have been an even more dominating player than he was.
    	Perhaps the regimen would have made it all too boring or
    	stifling for him, and he wouldn't have played with the
    	spirit that he had in the 1920's that made him what he was.

    
    <------
    What Joe said...
    
    I like and respect what the Babe accomplished, but I find it hard to
    fathom him coming around on a Nolan Ryan fastball with a 60 oz. bat...
    

    
    
    First you have to know the speeds which the pitchers threw at back in
    Babe's day.  Anyone know this information?

    .51
    
    i don't thiink anyone has accurate speeds of '20s pitchers.  i don't
    know how they could have measured it, given that they had neither radar
    nor strobe lights.
    
    in 1948, bob feller set a record of 98.4 that stood until vida blue
    threw one over 100 for a jugs gun.  other than that...  who knows?

    
    
    I guess the only way would be dist from home plate to mound and how
    long it takes, although that would be extremely accurate, it would be
    in the ballpark...... ;')

    .53
    
    how would you time it?  A stopwatch is certainly not a viable
    mechanism; at 100 mph, the travel time for 56 feet (60-6 minus
    lean-forward distance) is 0.384 seconds.  you can't even click the
    button twice in that length of time.

	A Timelord could.... :-)

  As I said earlier I don't think that speed alone would have bothered a hitter
like Ruth very much. Being a lefty he should have been able to handle a
righty like Noland Ryan with out too much trouble.

  Now if he had faced a southpaw like Randy Johnson who likes to throw 90mph+
chin music at left handed hitters or left handed pitcher Tommy Glavine who
baffles hitters with his circle change, then he might have struggled a bit.

  George

	Who is Noland Ryan??? Did he play ball?

  Oops, that's Nolan Ryan.

  Yes, he played ball. I believe he holds the record for strike outs by a
pitcher.

  George

    
    
    
    Well Dick, maybe someone as old as you whos reflexes have slowed down a
    bit couldn't, but a you buck like me with lightening fast reflexes
    could do it fairly easily...... :')
    
    
    Mike

    
    bwahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

  One of my favorite stories about comparisons of old players to new players
concerns Ty Cobb.

  Along about the mid 50's or early 60's an old manager who had been around in
Cobb's day was asked "what would Ty Cobb be hitting if he were playing today?"
to which the old manager answered, "Oh somewhere around .320".

  The reporter pointed out "well that's not all that great, he hit over .400
back when he was playing" to which the old manager replied "well it's not all
that bad when you consider that he'd be about 80 years old.

  George

    	Can't one determine pitch speed from old films by somehow
    	calculating from frames-per-second?

    .62
    
    > calculating from frames-per-second
    
    ah!  bingo!
    
    yes, you can, once you get into the era when they began using motor-
    driven cameras, which was about the same time talkies came into use. 
    before then, you're dealing with hand-cranked cameras, which shot at
    whatever speed the cameraman cranked them at.
    
    you could get a fair approximation based on the frame speed.  you're
    still guessing a patch because the cameras used then had an exposure
    time of about 1/50 second, which means the ball would be a blur more
    than a foot in length.  with some computer enhancement you could get
    a clean spotting on the ball and arrive at some useful figures.

    
    amazing stat, is one homer for every 11.75 at bat. No one else is even
    close.
    
    Mark

  They didn't call him the Sultan of Swat for noth'en.

  George

    Saw the numbers of strikeouts a few days ago....was it 1130 or 1330?
    Swingin' for the stands had its price.
    
    DougO

  Well number of strike outs in itself doesn't mean much. He hit 3rd so he was
up a lot. 

  I'm sure he did strike out quite a bit, that's not uncommon in sluggers, but
we should see his strikeout to walk ratio before we decide if it was a problem.

  George

    
    From a numbers perspective only 3 players are in the hunt  ...
        Ruth, Williams, and Gehrig (hanging).
    
    As a SABR member (baseball stat geeks) I've read dozens of studies and
    they all end up ranking the top 3 the same way.  All three have
    terrific batting averages, hit a ton of homers, and walked a ton ...
    that's a combination that those three did uniquely well.
                     
    Greg
    

	Greg, is your name really spelt that way or is is really spelt Creg? :)

    .68 
    
    the other two couldn't pitch like Ruth, and that's what puts him at the
    head of the class.
    
    .69
    
    nice snarf