Conference back40::soapbox

    [Thanks, Phil....]
    
    
               <<< BACK40::BACK40$DKA500:[NOTES$LIBRARY]SOAPBOX.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< Soapbox.  Just Soapbox. >-
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Note 17.1750                 Things To Wonder About                 1750 of 1753
CSOA1::LEECH "I'm the NRA."                          19 lines   2-FEB-1995 10:43
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    There's a NWO organization (forget the name off-hand) that divides the
    earth into 10 "kingdoms" (that's what they actually call it).  
    
    Oddly enough, this fits in quite well with Revelation.  Not that this
    is how it will be fulfilled, but there is a parallel.
    
    The rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem seems an impossibility right
    now, too, but sooner or later there will be a "treaty amoung many" that
    will allow for its construction.  
    
    However it happens, you can count on one thing...the temple will be
    rebuilt.  When it happens, I hope that those who disbelieve anything
    Bible-related will at least give the gospels a second look (I think
    that this is one of the purposes of the tribulation period...to wake
    people up).  [please don't take this the wrong way, it is merely a
    comment of personal concern- no holier-than-thou'ness intended]
    
    
    -steve

    bear in mind that if lindsay somehow gets his crackpot scheme to
    rebuild the temple off the ground, the critical point on the end-times
    path will shift to some other thing.  jesus made it clear that no man,
    not even himself, would know the time.  so working to force it to
    happen in a known timeframe is fruitless - god doesn't have to do what
    we want him to just because we think we're being clever in reading the
    prophecies.

    Correct.  Hal Lindsay is trying to commit a self fulfilled prophecy.  
    
    The end times will come when God chooses it to!
    
    -Jack

There's a slight problem in humans rebuilding the Temple.  The site's taken.

    no prob, gerald.  one small tactical nuke would clean it off real
    purty.

RE: 278.1 by CSOA1::LEECH "I'm the NRA."

> There's a NWO organization (forget the name off-hand) that divides the
> earth into 10 "kingdoms" (that's what they actually call it).  

Perhaps the name is "Hal's Drinking Buddies"?

    
Phil

    re: .2
    
    
    It doesn't matter what Lindsay tries to do, it won't happen until God
    lets it happen.  There's little he can do about the Dome, in any case,
    which supposedly sits where the temple should be.
    
    -steve

   re: 278.5 <SMURF::BINDER>

   >no prob, gerald.  one small tactical nuke would clean it off real purty.

       ...and make it a radioactive hot spot for the next thousand years...

   Tony

    .8
    
    sorry, tony, it's clear you don't understand the technology of tactical
    nukes.  my f-i-l was a chicken colonel in the artillery, specializing
    in nukes, and he sez that modern warheads produce a little fallout but
    little more, and definitely not enough to render a place uninhabitable
    after the first couple of weeks.  you use an air burst, placed high
    enough that the shock wave does the work.

RE: 278.8 by USDEV::BALSAMO

> ...and make it a radioactive hot spot for the next thousand years..

Like the city of Hiroshima in Japan.  Uninhabitable,  right?


Phil

    
    
    	The bomb dropped on Hiroshima was a pipsqueak compared to todays
    modern megaton monsters....
    
    
    

      Well, Jesus said destroy this temple and I will raise it up
      in 3 days.  He also said His word was spirit; not flesh and
      blood.  If one is of the Christian persuasion, it is possible
      to surmise that one obstacle those of Israel often had was
      they continued to see things in terms of 'flesh and blood' and 
      not in terms of the spiritual meaning behind the word.
    
      temple = building.  Incorrect
    
      temple = heart      Correct.
    
      leaven = something you use to make bread with.     Incorrect
      leaven = bad doctrine that alters the state of things.   Correct.
    
      winds = air moving around.  Incorrect
      winds = strife   Correct
    
    
      What I'm seeing in some of these replies is an interpretation method
      that equates to Israel's own and for which they simply could not
      discern the times and the seasons - AND THEY WERE BURIED.
    
      Christianity is doing the exact same thing.  They think 'temple', 
      and they look at some physical structure all the while Jesus is
      trying to raise His temple (i.e. cleanse it from sin).
    
      I see the possibility that the physical temple will be raise.  And
      what a deception that will be as the spiritual meaning is completely
      lost sight of!
    
                                                      Tony

RE: 278.11 by SUBPAC::SADIN "caught in the 'net"

> The bomb dropped on Hiroshima was a pipsqueak compared to todays modern 
> megaton monsters....

And is much larger than the smallest tactical nukes.


Phil

    Tony:
    
    Isn't the antichrist going to sit in the temple according to the book
    of Daniel?!

If the purpose of dropping a tactical nuke on the site is to clear it
so that a temple can be built in order to hasten the the end of the world,
then why the hell would it make any difference if it were radioactive
for a thousand years?

    of course he/she'll shite in the temple... Oooopppppps... well, if the
    build with indoor plumbing :-)

    re: .14
    
    Yes, but Tony is right about the lack of spiritual insight when it is
    completed.  They will get their physical temple, but this will probably
    be a part of the reason why Isreal will accept the antichrist as
    Messiah.  The antichrist (in Greek, 'anti' can be interpreted as
    'replacement', which makes sense in light of prophesy) will sign an
    agrement with many, which will a)create peace in the middle east (for a
    while) and b)allow the construction of the temple.  
    
    [of course, he will break his own treaty mid-way through (3.5 years)]
    
    Jesus said to the Jews "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive
    me not; if another shall come in *his own name* [antichrist], him ye 
    will receive."
    
    It's worth noting that the above shows that the antichrist will not
    come in the name of the Father, but in his own name.  I speculate that
    he will bring about a religion of exhaultation of self, which is the
    culmination of the belief that we are all gods in forming- that mankind
    is evolving into a greater creature.  According to prophesy, many will 
    follow him and his lie.
    
    Satan, in ages past, wanted to be God.  He later appeared in the garden
    of eden and tempted Eve with the same sort of lie he himself believed
    out of pride..."you can be like God".  Seems Eve wanted to be like God.
    She then spread this lie to (the weak-willed) Adam.
    
    I see the same type of self-promotion in many of the new age religions,
    which makes me conclude that the one world religion of the antichrist
    (the embodiment of Satan) will be along this same order.  People
    already follow such ideals in ever-growing numbers, so it seems logical
    that this trend will seem natural to most (and if my stance of the
    rapture is right, then the influence of the church will not be here to
    stunt the growth, so there could indeed be a huge turn to the occult
    given the antichrist's example).
    
    Jesus said "you must deny your self", the antichrist will be saying
    just the opposite, and people will eat it up.  After all, we all really
    want to be gods of our own lives, don't we?  Denying self is not an
    easy thing...but it seems a particularly important theme throughout the
    Bible.
    
    -steve (who still hasn't gotten that 'deny self' thing down 100%, so
            don't think I'm pointing fingers at anyone 8^) )

    re: .16
    
    It will definitely be a 'he'.

    
    
    
re:  <<< Note 278.13 by BOXORN::HAYS "I think we are toast. Remember the jam?" >>>
    
>> The bomb dropped on Hiroshima was a pipsqueak compared to todays modern 
>> megaton monsters....
>And is much larger than the smallest tactical nukes.
    
    	Well, yeah. I was thinking more along the lines of an ICBM, not a
    tomahawk cruise missle. 
    
    	I guess you could just use one of those suitcase sized hydrogen
    bombs eh?
    
    jim

    The guy considered next in line for Yeltzin's job... what's his name
    (the anti-Sematic nationalist?)... anyway, he claims the Russians have
    a neutron type weapon with an active core approximately the size of a
    baseball. Leaves building in tact too just kills everyone inside with
    a massive does of radiation. Fun stuff.
    
    -b

 Neat-o.  

    .21
    Isn`t that like our old neutron bomb that J. Carter didn`t want to
    develope?
    
    .20
    Thats my middle name and my son`s first name and I still have trouble
    spelling it (Israel).

    
    
>    Thats my middle name and my son`s first name and I still have trouble
>    spelling it (Israel).
    
    	You shoulda named him Uraisma. Uraisma Crane....:)
    
    
    

    .24
    Hell, I can`t even prnounce that no less spell it...do I need hooked on
    phonics?

    ...sure does smell like our neutron bomb. of course, that nut case
    is prolly just catching up...
    
    Chip

>>    Hell, I can`t even prnounce that no less spell it...do I need hooked on
>>    phonics?

	yes.

    .26
    There was a small peice in my local paper about him and his love for
    group sex. He likes to watch as well.

    They've had the neutron bomb for a _long time_. What changed was the
    size... the only difference between Russia and us, is that Russia
    admits to having such a device.
    
    -b

Yep, according to the woman who interviewed him for Playboy, he wanted group
sex with the interviewer, her (female) interpreter, and a couple of his
(presumably male) bodyguards.  She refused.

>            the only difference between Russia and us, is that Russia
>    admits to having such a device.

Russia doesn't admit it, V... does.  He seems as reliable as Lyndon LaRouche.

    
    
re:                       <<< Note 278.25 by MAIL2::CRANE >>>

>    .24
>    Hell, I can`t even prnounce that no less spell it...do I need hooked on
>    phonics?
    
    	Uraisma Crane. You raise my crane. Uraisma Crane.
    
    :)
    
    

    .31
    Now what a minute....whats the matter with Lyndon???:').

    His name is Zhirinovsky.
    
    DougO

    .34
    I`m in real trouble now!!!

I knew it wasn't Velikovsky.

    .2
    
    Dick:
    
    You haven't either Hal Lindsey's latest book or my previous commentary.
    
    In short, because of recent archaelogical discoveries,one temple
    doesn't have to be built upon the other.  If you know your Old
    Testament as you profess to do, then you'll see where archaelogy has
    proven him out to be right.   

    Hal Lindsay is getting rich from eschatological hysteria. He's made a
    very good living at trying to figure out the day and the hour.

    Glenn

Speaking of getting rich from eschatological hysteria, Jeff Jacoby's column in
today's Boston Globe is about how Paul Ehrlich has done so.

    .37
    
    ron, the archaeology is immaterial, as is any other commentary.
    
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
    36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of
    heaven, but my Father only.
    
    				- Matthew 24:35-36, KJV
    
    13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein
    the Son of man cometh.
    
    				- Matthew 25:13, KJV
    
    32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels
    which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
    
    				- Mark 13:32, KJV
    
    the point here is that no amount of archaelogical evidence or other
    games will change the fact that we are simply NOT TO KNOW when the end
    will come.  If we try to force the end, you can bet we'll end up being
    shown for fools by our own "wisdom."
    
    

    re: .38
    
    Actually, if you've ever read his books, you'd know that he doesn't
    try to pinpoint exact times, just the season (which is Biblical). 
    Though no one knows the day or hour, we can know the season (general
    time frame).
    
    I have read books that try to pinpoint exact times (I immediately
    assume they are wrong, at least on their date-setting)...if you've noticed,
    books like that cause a furvor for a short time, then when the date
    comes and goes, the excuses begin (and the disappointed masses turn
    away from eschatological study).  Such date setting should be avoided,
    as it tends to do more harm than good.  
    
    General time (generation)?  Certainly.  A specific date?  Nope.
    
    Although, as the date gets closer, I'm sure that God will bring new
    light on his word to those who pay attention to eschatological study
    and world events.  This new wisdom may narrow things down further, but not
    to a specific date/year.
    
    
    -steve

    If you read his book The 1980's, Countdown To Armageddon you would see
    that he is a little less subtle with the fig tree approach. He's done
    everything except choosing a date outright. He even hints that the Pope
    could be the Anti-Christ, but he doesn't say it outright.

    Now that the 80's are past, what will he concoct next?

Did this character have anything to do with the prediction of "The Rapture"?

    No, that was another crackpot I forget his name. Hal Lindsay is credible, 
    he does a lot of research. The guy who predicted the rapture during Rosh 
    Hashanah '88 was a real idiot. Very poorly researched book. The whole thing 
    was based on calendar calculations, it was terrible. He made a lot of money
    though and a lot of people believed it. Gee, maybe he's not such an
    idiot.....

    Glenn

    Hal Linsay also wrote a book called, "There's a New World Coming".  It
    is a commentary on the book of Revelation.  Even if you think
    Revelation is bunk, it is still an excellent book from his POV and
    research!
    
    -Jack

    He used the living bible as his text though...

    is this another Von Danikin?

    re: .42
    
    Subtle hints of his opinion leak in.  I don't look so much at the
    author's opinion, as I look at the scriptural reference he uses and how
    he uses it.  I've read books by many different authors and have found
    that some stretch interpretations to the extreme, some miss basic
    things on interpretations (specifically prophesy dealing with Israel,
    the nation, being confused with the tribulation saints in some books),
    and some overcomplicate what I believe to be a not-so-complicated thing
    (in general).
    
    I think part of the problems of this overcomplication is that many
    authors (and I've certainly caught myself doing the same thing) are
    too set on one way of thinking.  They look at scripture in light of 
    world events, trying to force their views together, rather than look at 
    world events in light of scripture.  By doing this, they try to interpret
    prophesy through their own internal filters and knowledge, rather than
    using scripture to back up scripture to peice things together.
    
    I find those who keep things simple tend to be more scripturally
    accurate.  God did not make prophesy too complicated to understand...He
    did seal up His Revelation until the proper time, though.  As events
    happen, I think that anyone familiar with the Bible will be able to
    follow along fairly well.
    
    The biggies in our time are: 
    
    *Israel founded (many prophesies throughout the old and NT mention Israel 
    being scattered and made desolate, then will be brought back again.
    
    *The gathering of the Jews out of the lands of the gentiles in general. 
    Jews being gathered out of the north lands (Russia).  There is a
    continual exodus of the Jews from other lands to come back to their
    ancient homeland.
    
    *All eyes being on Jerusalem/Israel being the center of world
    attention.  Just watch the news...
      
    *Israel flourishing.  Isreal is a tiny spot of land surrounded by
    Islamic nations who hate the Jews (and outnumber them greatly).  They
    have survived a hateful assault by their enemies, but rather than being
    anniahlated by superior numbers, they counter-attacked and actually
    gained lands (1967).  
    
    *From a historical perspective, it is miraculous that after thousands
    of years and integration with gentiles in many nations, the Jews have
    kept their unique identity.  What makes this more incredible is that at
    many points in history, it would have been to their advantage to
    integrate with the gentiles (Nazi Germany, for one).  Instead, they
    have kept their identity at the cost of millions of lives throughout
    the time of their exhile.
    
    
    There's more, but it's time to leave...besides, I'm probably just
    boring folks anyway.
    
    
    -steve

    There are others:
    
    - The creation of the EU, which many see as the 10 horns of
      the beast as mentioned in the Book of Daniel. The prophecy
      goes on to predict that the EU will increase to 13 nations
      (which it did recently with the addition of Austria), only
      to fall back to 10 with internal bickering... at which time
      the Anti-Christ will come as a peace-maker to Jerusalem.
    
    - The prophecy regarding Rash (Russia) as an invader of Israel.
      This could not have happened under the "Soviet Union" as
      specific mention of the tribe unique to Russia itself is
      made in prophecy. It is likely that Zheridnovsky will
      succeed Yeltzin, and he definitely does not like Israel.
    
    - The prophecy regarding the Anti-Christ claiming to be
      the "King of Jerusalem". Since the Crusades, the king
      of Spain has held the ceremonial title of the King of
      Jerusalem, and the influence of the current king (Juan
      Carlos) has been growing as both a member of the EC
      and in world affairs.
    
    
    And so on, and so on.
    
    -b

    There are more than 13 countries in the EEC.

    Yes but don't England, Scotland and Wales appear as one...

    The UK, or Great Britain do appear as one.

    that was suppose to be 'yeah but, do' not 'yeah but don't'
    
    but wwho really cares anyway ??

    It absolutely amazes me that folx who can use computers believe this
    mindmush.  Guess computers are too damn easy to use these days. 
    

      re: .14
    
      Hi Jack,
    
        Sure he is!                                 
    
        And you just happen to be referring to perhaps the most
        SYMBOLIC book in the entire Bible!
    
        Is antiChrist even a person?  Is it perhaps a message.
        What does it mean to sit?  What is meant by temple?
    
                                                Tony

    Mindmush?  Okay, wise one, let's hear your counter-arguments then. 
    Simply labeling something you don't agree with as mindmush, is not a
    very good defense of your view.
    
    -steve

    re: .56
    
    Considering the OT prophesies that refer to what is called the
    antichrist in the NT, I'd have to say that the antichrist will be a
    man and the temple will be a building.  The book of Revelation, Daniel,
    Isaiah, etc. make little sense in these prophesies if they are not
    referring to litteral elements.
    
    Sybolism is too easy a way to stretch the meaning to whatever you want
    it to be (I'm certainly not saying this is what you are doing, just
    explianing my view on this), which is what a lot of new age religions
    do with some scriptures. 
    
    I think that historically filled prophesies have proven to be fulfilled
    quite litterally, and it would be a mistake not to use these examples
    of litteral interpretation.  Look at the prophesies regarding Jesus,
    for example.
    
    Now, this does not mean that there is no sybolism in Revelation, don't
    get me wrong; but if you will look closely, the passages identify what
    is symbolism- then it  goes on to explain what they represent.
    
    Don't get caught up in making prophesy more complicated that it is.  In
    many cases, even though we may not see how, what is written is quite
    litteral in meaning.  One thing to keep in mind is that John had no
    litteral words to describe modern weapons and similar things that he
    was sure to have witnessed in his visions, so he had to write down
    such visions using terms that we may not quickly associate with (that's
    why he used so many "like this" and "like that"'s, because he did not
    have exact descriptions in his terminology).
    
    
    -steve

    .47
    
    > He used the living bible as his text though...
    
    so?  the living bible is the only one with the guts to admit that it's
    a paraphrase.  all the others, EVERY ONE OF THEM, are paraphrases, too.
    no two languages map perfectly on each other - they reflect different
    thought patterns, and any translation must of necessity be less than
    literally accurate; translators make compromises to render the original
    in a form that makes sense in the target language.
    
    except sometimes it doesn't.  "forty years" (exodus 16:35) does not
    mean 14610 days, it means "some unspecified but very long time" - but
    you better believe there are bunches of people who take it at face
    value.

    Actually, 40 years- via old Jewish calendar of 360 days- would be
    14,400 days.  But that's just a nit-pick that really has nothing to do
    with what you posted.  8^)

>    Actually, 40 years- via old Jewish calendar of 360 days

The Jewish calendar has always been a lunar calendar with leap months to
prevent season shifting.  It's never been 360 days.

    I admit I konw nothing about this subject, but haven't people been
    making comparisons between the prophecies and "current" events since
    the Bible first appeared?
    
    That is, right now we can say "Oh, xyz in the scripture must refer to
    abc" as in "Rash" meaning "Russia", vs. the Soviet Union.  But haven't
    people been comparing to their own time and political situation for
    hundreds years, and made convincing arguments that were believed at the
    time?  
    
    Isn't the very fact that, literal or not, unless something happens
    like a new country called "Rash" is formed, that SOME mapping between
    terms in the Bible and our reality has to occur, and consequently the
    only SURE way to know when the mapping is correct is when either the
    events actually happen or the mapping is no longer necessary, and
    everything else until then was just a false alarm?
    
    Jim
    

    jes.

    re: .61
    
    Okay, you got me on this one.  I was referring to the months being 30
    days each.  I should have clarified this rather than leaping to
    inaccuracies.
    
    -steve

Lunar months aren't 30 days each.  They're a little over 29.5 days.

    Picky, picky...

    .67
    
    dunno re revelation, but several scholars i consider reputable say that
    jesus' weeping over jerusalem was for the roman destruction of the
    city.

    The Late Great Snarf!

    re: .67
    
    Revelation  mentions things that have not happened yet, so I believe
    they are wrong.  
    
    According to Revelation, Jesus' return will be at a time just before
    the aniahlation of His people Isreal.  His point of entry is Jerusalem,
    and he will come down to put an end to Isreal's enemies.  This will happen 
    at the end of the 70th week mentioned in Daniel.
    
    It has been interpreted that the last world kingdom will be ruled by a
    10 nation confederacy (under the antichrist), which is considered to be
    the revived Roman Empire.  I don't disagree with this, nor do I fully
    accept this interpretation either.  Current events seem to back up this
    idea in general, but we'll see.
    
    
    -steve     

    Jurulsalem. ?   whodat?

    re: .70 (steve)

    And if we don't believe this interpretation, we're guilty of
    of all that relativism stuff, right?

    Wow.

    As noted earlier, zealots have been shouting since the beginning
    that the end was near.  Are you really trying to convince us that
    _this_ time it's for real, and _you_ have the straight poop?

    Man, this is just too much.  My head hurts from all your banging.

    \john   

    (Hey!!  My moderator hat is OFF!)

    \john
    
    I think that was a really unfair attack on Steve. The purpose of this
    note is _clearly_ to discuss the validity of the end times claims by
    Hal Lindsay and others, and Steve presents a knowledgeable viewpoint on
    the contents of the bible. I see no thumping here.
    
    As someone who does not have much of a "religious" stake in this, I
    still think the discussion is very interesting, and would be most
    disappointed if you drove the likes of Steve off with your unwarranted
    accusation of thumping. My word... what did you expect the man to talk
    about in a note about end-times-prophecy? Jean Dixon?
    
    Mods should know where to find the next-unseen key... try it.
    
    -b

Ummm, I doubt that \john will drive Steve off, Brian. :^)

re: .74

It's not the content, it's the way it's delivered.

I've got the keypad down, thanks.  Use it plenty.

\john
    (the hat is still off)

    It's difficult to support Hal Lindsay side of things without sounding
    like a zealot at times. It's also difficult to try an refute Hal
    Lindsay's point of view without sounding like a hedonistic unbeliever
    at times.

    Glenn

    \john,
    
    I've re-read my .70 again and again and for the life of me, I can't
    figure out what got you all up in arms over it.  Perhaps, rather than
    going in assault mode, you could explain your problem with it...or at
    least attack point for point to give some clue as to what riled you.
    
    I think maybe you are reading it in a different way than what was
    intended.
    
    -steve  

    re: .77
    
    You are right there.  Personally, I'm not trying to back up Hal, nor am
    I trying to debunk him.  Some of my views may support his, some may
    not.  Just remember that these are MY views, based on 3-4 years of
    study.  I make no claims at being an authority on this subject.
    
    re: general discussion
    
    Over the course of my study on Bible prophesy, I have changed
    directions more than once, which shows my views are not set in
    concrete...I am willing to let facts sway my views, when new ones are
    discovered/learned.
    
    I enjoy a good discussion on prophesy, and that is all I wish to do in
    this topic- discuss it with any who are interested.  "Thumping" is not
    my intent.  I hope that everyone keeps this in mind when reading my
    notes posted in here.  
    
    Obviously, since this is a topic on BIBLE prophesy, Bible things will
    be mentioned (you know; Jesus, God the Father, the Holy Spirit, the
    apostles, prophets, etc.), so don't take this as "thumping".  8^)
    
    
    -steve                 

> you know; Jesus, God the Father, the Holy Spirit


Hey! They were in "Greaser's Palace"!

    Gordon Michael Scallion out in Westmoreland NH, has a great list of
    gloom and doom prophecy, shown on several TV shows recently. 
    He predicts that all of the west coast will be destroyed, the 
    pacific coast will be in the general area of the Rockies, the
    Mississippi river will become very wide (100 miles +) and that 
    parts of the east coast woll submerge, and the Bahamas Islands area
    will rise, forming a new small continent. (Edgar Cayce also made a 
    similar prediction about the Bahamas back in the early 1900s).
    
    Stay tuned...
    
    

      Hi,
    
        I still think we delve too much on the physical plane of
        things.
    
        Yeah, I'm sure there will be physical storms, but there is
        a spiritual storm that will hit both houses in the last days
        and the house built on the rock will stand while the other
        will fall.
    
        I think the bottom line prophetic thing that needs fulfillment
        is the one that God cannot set a watch for.  Jesus said that 
        when the fig tree begins to bear its fruit, THEN the end is
        near.  This was after all the other stuff He said in Matt. 24,
        the great gospel prophetic chapter.
    
        If you turn to Isaiah 5, you'll see a chapter on the Lord's 
        vineyard.  He says its purpose is to produce good grapes (or
        to put another way - RIGHTEOUSNESS).  In the chapter He says 
        He used the choicest vine who is Christ, i.e. "I am the vine,
        you are the branches."  He also says (paraphrase), "Haven't I
        done everything and still wild grapes were the result?"
    
        The temple is God's faithful.  It will be rebuilt.  The fig tree
        will bear fruit.  The vineyard will one day produce good grapes.
        But, God cannot set the date.  He can know the time via fore-
        knowledge, but He has already done all He can do and he awaits
        a group willing to receive Him so fully that the fig tree, the
        vineyard are bountiful in fruit production/the temple is raised.
        (All this symbolism means the same thing.)
    
        The rebuilding of a physical temple in Jerusalem is a deception
        which looks at flesh and blood and away from spirit.  Also, the
        assertion that God sets a time is false.  The Bible clearly says
        that the time must be when fruit is ripe and it is time to reap.
        And God, while doing ALL He could, has been forced to wait.
    
        I think the principal place to look for concerning the time of
        the end is our own hearts.  
    
        What kind of fruit have I allowed God to produce in me?
    
        The church is the fig tree and God waits for that fig tree to
        be willing to have fruit produced in it.
    
                                                     Tony

    
    How appropriate that in Soapbox one hears that "the end is near".
    

    Repent! Repent! The end is... <network partner exited>

    re: .82
    
    It is my understanding that the fig tree is symbolic of Israel, not the
    church...which brings a new light to Matthew 24.
    
    -steve

    To Dick B, Glenn R and a few others who accused Hal Lindsey of "setting
    a date":
    
    I dusted off my copy of the Late Great Planet Earth and in the
    Introduction, Lindsey clearly states: 
    
    "This book by no means is trying to predict the exact time of the
    second coming of Jesus.  To the contrary, Jesus clearly stated that 'No
    one but the Father knows the exact date or time.'  My intent merely is
    to intepret the prophesy of the Old Testament Prophets and current
    [1970] events happening in our world today."
    
    Pretty clear to me He's not trying to one-up the Creator. 

    .86
    
    he's trying to one-up the creator by FORCING the issue, ron.  getting
    the temple rebuilt would nominally kick off the last seven years, you
    see, so he's trying to play creator - not by specifying the time, but
    by an even more arrogant means, i.e., lighting a timed fuse.

    Read Hal's book, The 1980's Countdown To Armageddon. He was hinting the
    the 80's would be pivotal in the fulfillment of prophecy. They
    weren't.

    .88 Glenn:
    
    This topic is dealing with The late Great planet Earth.
    
    .87  Dick:
    
    Actually, the temple doesn't have to be rebuilt until the midpoint of
    the 7 years according to Ezekial. (sp?)

    get started rebuilding and *be* rebuilt are two different things; with
    the way people in the middle east jaw at each other, it'll take em
    three and a half years to get it done.

    Dick:
    
    The point I was also making the other day about new archaelogical
    discoveries wa sthat the new Temple doessn't have to be built on top of
    the existing...the original cornerstone of one of the walls was
    discovered and the new Temple could be built and miss the existing by
    50 yds...

    .91
    
    ron, i understand the point re not having to zorch the existing temple. 
    you seem not to understand the point re lindsay's playing god by trying
    to force the prophet's hand.  the new temple gets built, 3.5 years more
    and it all goes poof.  this means that if lindsay gets his temple going
    he will be in a position to know the day and the hour, which jesus said
    can't happen.  ergo, lindsay does not understand the prophecy and he is
    a mountebank.

>    I thought it was the Jews who wanted to build the new temple.  I doubt
>    Hal has a whole lot to do with it.  The Jews have wanted to rebuild the
>    temple for more than a few years now. 

There's a tiny band who want to rebuild the Temple.  What they want to do
is completely contrary to both halacha and Jewish tradition, which says
that the third Temple will not be built by man.

    re: .92
    
    I thought it was the Jews who wanted to build the new temple.  I doubt
    Hal has a whole lot to do with it.  The Jews have wanted to rebuild the
    temple for more than a few years now. 
    
    All things considered, I have a hard time imagining one man (Hal
    Lindsay, in this case) making much difference in this issue, and none
    as far as prophesy fulfillment (unless God is using him in such a way).
    
    
    re: no one in particular
    
    Now, it is my opinion that the temple is not a trigger for the start of
    Daniel's 70th week.  The rapture (the taking away of the believers)
    seems to be the trigger, IMO.  A few reasons:
    
    1) the church would hinder the antichrist's rise to power
    
    He who hinders must be taken out of the way (the Holy
    Spirit).  Since the Holy Spirit is omnipresent, it is impossible to
    really take the Spirit out of the way, so what was Paul talking about
    in Thessalonians?  Considering that, according to Revelation, there will
    be many brought to Christ during the Great Tribulation, the HS must be
    present to convict and convince them.
    
    Since the church is a habitation of God through Spirit (Ephesians
    2:22), and the bodies of Christians are the temples of the Holy Spirit
    (1 Corinthians 6:19), Paul must mean the Church will be taken out of
    the way.  After all, the Church would spot the antichrist fairly
    quickly...which would definitely be a hinderance to the antichrist
    gaining power.  
    
    The unique presense of the HS within the Church will be taken out of
    the way- leaving no hinderance to the antichrist's rise to power.  God
    also tells us He will give a powerful delution to those not taken,
    those who love not the truth.  They will see the antichrist as their
    "savior"...so to speak, probably because he will solve so many of the
    problems having to do with the vanishing of millions of people
    (speculation).
    
    
    2) The rapture would create a great fear amoung the people remaining.
    
    Imagine millions of people disappearing suddenly (rapture of the
    Church).  The chaos created by such a major event would cause turmoil
    and fear on an extraordinary level.  The chaos would be emotional and    
    fiscal.  Anyone who could come up with a reasonalbe explanation and
    guarantee the people that it will not happen to them, would gain the 
    loyalty of the people.  [Revelation speaks of his demonic signs and
    wonders that he uses to deceive the people.  Perhaps he will make a
    great showing of power publically to show that he can "defend" them
    from whatever has made the millions vanish....or maybe not.  8^)]
    
    
    Possible explanations?  The only one I can think of seems pretty
    far-fetched, but is possible.  UFO's.  If there was a mass sighting of
    many UFOs after the disappearances, people may think that the UFOs
    somehow have abducted the missing people.  Sounds silly, but look at
    all the UFO abduction stories/movies going around (there are whole
    conferences within Digital on the subject, and I'm sure there's
    something on the internet, also).  People would be emotionally
    distraught and would be willing to believe just about any explanation
    given by an authority figure, especially one with strange "powers". 
    
    The missing people would also bring about an economic black hole, which
    may bring about some sort of cashless system...but you need a mark to
    buy or sell (Revelation).  I'm not sure how else (other than an
    electronic, cashless system) the individual can be
    forced to have some form of mark in order to buy or sell...but I'm open
    for ideas.  8^)
    
    Revelation mentions a great fear, and great signs and wonders in the
    air....perhaps this is what it is talking about.  Though I admit to
    speculation on this part.  8^)
    
    3) unity of the world
    
    Perhaps an event like the rapture would be powerful enough for warring
    factions to band together under a common cause, at least for a short
    time.  This could lead the world into a one-world form of government
    under the antichrist.  
    
    
    4) two comings...one to trigger Daniel's 70's week, one to end it
    
    Just as the Jews in Jesus' time were expecting the Messiah to come but
    once, the Church today is doing the same thing.  Many believe the
    rapture and second coming are one and the same (or happen at the same
    time). 
    
    It is said in the Bible that Christ will come for His own, to catch
    them in the air, but that no one will know the day or hour.  He said
    that when He comes, it will be as in the day of Noah and Lot....people
    will be marrying and giving in marriage, etc.   In another passage,
    Jesus states that two men will be working a mill, one will be taken,
    another left.  Two women will be (weaving?), one will be taken, another
    left (normal daily activities- life as usual).   
    
    It will not be life as usual at the end of the Great Tribulation, nor
    even at the beginning of it (half-way through the 70th week of Daniel). 
    In the middle of the "week", the antichrist will break his covenant
    with many.  He will sit on the Temple throne and demand worship.  It
    will be then that the Jews realize that he is not the Messiah, and it
    will be the beginning of the "time of Jacob's trouble".
    
    However, other passages tell of His coming down from heaven with his
    saints, to save  Israel from the armies surrounding it.  This at the
    very end of the Great Tribulation and life is definitely NOT normal at 
    this time.  
    
    The only thing that makes sense is that there are two comings...one for
    the saints, one to save Isreal.  The rapture would have to be the first
    coming.
    
    No signs must take place before the rapture, but many signs must take
    place before the Second Coming.  They have to be two distinct
    events...one secretive (as a thief in the night), and one following
    "the sign of the Son of Man in the sky".
    
    So, those who are not believers before the rapture will have a definite
    point of reference in prophetic time (so they know that there IS a
    limit to how long these terrible  times will last).  And if they pay
    attention to the Bible, they will finally know that it is believable
    and can trust God's word (not too late to accept Christ...that's why
    there will be a bountiful harvest during the tribulation times, as
    stated in Revelation).  Those faithful unto death (there will be a time
    when you must worship the beast and take the mark or you will be
    killed- also in Revelation), will get their reward in heaven.  
    
    Unfortunately, it seems that this will be the case for most who become
    Christians during the tribulation time.  "The beast was given power to
    make war with the saints, and to overcome them" (he wins in this earthly 
    battle, though no the war).
    
    
    -steve 

    re: .93
    
    Well, this "tiny band" must have a lot of funds.  They have most of the
    temple artifacts made already...solid gold, in many cases.  Not a cheap
    exploit, to be sure.
    
    
    -steve

There are a number of groups who want to rebuild the temple; some are
Christian; some are Jewish.  Most of these groups believe that this will
result in the coming of Christ (for the second or first time, depending
on which group is trying to cause the eschatological events to happen).

Gerald Sacks has indicated a few times in this and other discussions that
truly Orthodox Jews believe that the Third Temple will not be built by man,
but by God.

He is, of course, correct.  He and I, however, would probably not agree
completely on how and when this will be (or has already been) accomplished.

I think that when he and I see the completed temple face to face, we will
both understand that we always meant the same thing, and just had different
imperfect understandings of the truth about the Third temple.

/john

    I've read recently in a "rag" that Edgar Casey had some sealed
    predictions that were passed down to frields with explicit orders to
    not make them public until 1994. These predictions are to be publish
    in a book to be release in '95.
    
    
    Has any one heard about this ....details please
    
    
    Brian V
     

Cayce.

    Mr. Cayce created a new map as to what the US would look like after
    major earthquakes, etc.  In his map, the Great Lakes empty into the
    Gulf of Mexico...not a pleasant prediction.

    A great SNARF!

    .99
    
    that map sounds pretty much like what the north american continent
    looked like 100 million years ago.  except that the gulf of mexico went
    all the way north to the arctic ocean.

    <---- Wow, think of all the resorts they could have built back then...