Conference back40::soapbox

    For Christmas time, I recommend a movie called "A Midnight Clear". An
    interesting account of a weird WWII story.

    Glenn

    I know a man who survived the Bataan death march and another man who
    survived the Indianapolis incident.  Quite intriguing to hear their
    accounts!  To somebody who is 33, it is like speaking to somebody who
    was at Valley Forge...or who fought at Bunker Hill, or the Battle of
    the Bulge!
    
    -Jack

It's been interesting to hear my dad recall WWII, as all
the 50th anniversary dates pass.

He pre-enlisted (or whatever they called it) in 1943,
when he was 17, so he could have some choice in assignment.
D-Day was the day before his 18th birthday, and he prayed
mightily for surrender that night.  Boarded the bus to
basic training on June 8th.  Stationed in the Pacific,
part of an Army Air Corps bomber crew, and saw some pretty
gruesome stuff.  Was in the sky over Japan on VJ Day.

A real living history lesson.

    My brother survived the Bataan Death March but drank himselt to death
    over a period of 23 years. Never spoke about it but I know he was
    released from a prison camp in China. I never truely understood what he
    went through until I took a few history corses in college. 

    re .4
    
    And you still never will.  My father was on the war crimes tribunal in
    the phillipines and had been stationed on ATU for most of WWII.  I
    never knew how that hit him, until we visted my sil in the burn unit
    after a murder suicide attempt.  When we came out he was shaking all
    over, and then proceded to discribe what had happend to the field
    hospital when the US retook the island.  
    
    Gruesome.
    
    meg

    My Dad would never talk about the actual invasion at Anzio; but he
    often spoke fondly about the Italian people and how nice they treated
    him after he got out of a field hospital.  Guess my Dad and his
    buddies would share rations and he mentioned with a wink that a few
    folks had been able to squirrel away a few bottles of some pretty
    good wine :-)
    
    Mom said when he first came back he worried a lot about 2 little
    boys he'd gotten to know (kids lost parents, but were with grand-
    parents).....Dad always was a sucker for kids.
    
    

    	I recall a conversation one Christmas when I was a teen.  My 
    	father and my grandfather were discussing the "old times".  It
    	is always intriguing to listen to your older relatives recount
    	history through their eyes.
    
    	I remember asking them if they, as immigrant Germans (but now US
    	citizens), faced discrimination or hardships because of their
    	personal histories and birth heritage.
    
    	Little if any, seemed to be their answer.  They lived in an
    	ethnic German neighborhood in Baltimore.  Patriotism ran strong.
    	They outright rejected the leadership of their birth nation, and
    	had no problem openly expressing that.  Most Germans did.  Most
    	were personally embarrassed to be associated with that in any
    	way.  They were American.

    .7
    
    in some places discrimination ran high.  madison, wisconsin, had an
    exhibit in the state museum a coupla years ago showing it.  i was
    pretty sickened to think that 'muricans could be that way.  but then i
    was sicker back in the '70s when i learned that one of my colleagues
    was the son of two nisei who spent the war in a camp in wyoming.

re: .8

nisei????

Bob

From what I understand, anti-German feeling ran much higher in the U.S.
during WWI than during WWII.  This allegedly led to the renaming of the
hamburger ("salisbury steak") and sauerkraut ("liberty cabbage").

    	re .8
    
    	I posted my reply to contrast what happened to the Japanese-
    	Americans during WWII.  
    
    	I also suspected that my relatives' treatment might not have 
    	been indicative of all German-Americans' experiences -- in fact
    	I was quite surprised to hear what they had to say about their
    	experiences.  Sometimes I wonder if they had selective memories
    	of that time.  My curiosity remains.

    
    "Nisei" is a Japanese term for a first generation half-Japanese/half-non
    person, kind of like people used to use mulatto, quadroon, etc.  My
    junior high friends Keiko, Seiko, and Reiko Niimi were nisei.
    
    Imaginative parents 8^).

    
    
    
    Does anyone have the final casualty count for WWII?  I believe that
    the Russian "toll" was the highest. What about Chinese casualities
    during the Japanese occupation?
    
    
    Ed

    
    World Almanac (1990) estimates 45 millions total war-related deaths
    1939-45.  But it's only estimates, and depends what you count.
    
    The total level of horror was unprecedented, particularly in Russia
    and China.
    
      bb

    
    
    
        Were the German forces on the verge of capitulation prior to
        the so called "fire bombing" of cities like Dreseden[sp]?
    
        Were those missions "necessary"?
    
        Some military historians believe that the continuation of 
        incendiary bombing runs over Japan could have negated the
        use of the A-bomb. Do you think this was true?
    
    
        Ed
    

    
    The raids over the cities in Germany were in retaliation for the V2
    bombings of English cities...
    
     They were not necessary... By today's standards, they may be
    considered atrocities.... Yet the were done, and accomplished their
    purpose.
    

    .15
    
    > Were the German forces on the verge of capitulation ...
    
    no.  hitler would not have countenanced capitulation - even as late as
    december 1944 he threatened to strip von runstedt of rank and medals if
    von runstedt refused to retract his opinion that the bastogne offensive
    would fail.
    
    > Were those missions "necessary"?
    
    they were a demonstration to hitler that if he was going to firebomb
    cities like coventry, he'd get his own back in spades.
    
    > ... continuation of
    > incendiary bombing runs over Japan could have negated ...
    
    possible, but not likely.  the historians i've read whose remarks made
    the most sense said that it was the incredible degree of damage that
    was done by a single bomb that finally caused the japanese to cave in;
    hundreds of planes dropping thousands of bombs were a horrible thing,
    but they were a thing that could be grokked.  one single explosion that
    could level a city and kill nearly 100,000 people could not be grokked. 
    and the possibility (very real to a japanese government that had no way
    of knowing how many bombs we had) of its going on and on and on was too
    much to be borne.

    my uncle carl went ashore at omaha beach and fought all the way into
    germany. he was proud of his many ribbons and he being recommended for
    the medal of honor for a hand-to-hand fight with the german somewhere
    in france. he didn't get the MoH. he also didn't like to talk much
    about the fighting, the scenes of battle and dead friends and foes. i
    didn't pay much attention at the time. he drank himself to death and
    died in 1970 just before i entered the service.
    
    one thing i have learned. there is simply no way to put into words the
    feeling, sights, and sounds of a battlefield after an intense fight.
    just no way.

   I have heard that WWII veterans *still* suffer from post-traumatic
   stress syndrome, undiminished after all these decades.

    	re .17
    
    	Grokked?  :^)  Never heard the word before.
    
    	BTW, how many bombs *did* we have at the time?  Could we have
    	leveled the whole country?  Was there yet another (and another...)
    	dropping planned had the Japanese not surrendered?

   I think we dropped both of them on Japan.  They had no way of knowing
   that, though, unless they had spies; and I guess they didn't, because
   they surrendered.

    grokked is from Heinlein's 1963 novel, Stranger in a Strange Land.
    
    We didn't have much more nuclear material.  Trinity, Fat man, and
    Little boy used it all up.  Another bomb would have taken months.
    
    DougO

   Re: Note 203.20 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Plucky kind of a kid"
   

�    	BTW, how many bombs *did* we have at the time?  Could we have
�    	leveled the whole country?  Was there yet another (and another...)
�    	dropping planned had the Japanese not surrendered?

   There were exactly two.
   
   One group of the nuclear scientists wanted the U.S. to demonstrate
   the bomb to the Japanese on some deserted island in hopes the
   Japanese would not want these bombs dropped on them.  This idea was
   trashed because we had only two bombs.  The decision makers were
   concerned that if Japan did not heed the warning blast, that a single
   bomb would not have much effect on them.  Seems they were right
   (maybe).
   
   Some in Japan thought the Hiroshima bomb damage was the result of
   some natural disaster.  They did not equate the damage with a bomb
   until Nagasaki.

    
    
    
    
        If the Japanese didn't surrender,....what was the plan??
    
        Invasion??
    
    
        Ed
    

    .20
    
    > Grokked?
    
    Read "Stranger in a Strange Land" by Robert A. Heinlein.  it's a
    classic of science fiction.  The verb grok implies total understanding
    of a thing, in all its nuances, as if you were actually one with the
    thing.  The clearest example of the term is given when the hero, Mike,
    who has been raised from childhood by nonhumans, is horrified at the
    use of grass for an indoor carpet until he finally groks that it is in
    the nature of grass to be walked on.

    
    Binder groks the 'Box!
    

    > FWIW - The first instance of bombing cities on the Western front in
    > WWII was done by the British. Also - in WWI - the first instance of
    > using poison gas was also done by the British.
    
    FWIW too!!! The British also invented the Gas Chamber.

    Another interesting tidbit.  The emporer in Japan was looked upon as a
    god.  Right after Pearl Harbor, the emporer decreed that not one bomb
    would hit Japanese soil.  The Americans flew a bombing mission to some
    city in Japan.  It did very little damage but demoralized the Japanese
    so much!
    
    What a brilliant idea!
    
    -Jack

RE: .30

Big cities, Tokyo for examples had serious damage by the bombings, especially 
with incendiaries.

_Tak

    .30 is referring to the Doolittle raid, mounted within about three
    months after Pearl Harbor, most of the planes for which were usually
    land-based bombers whose pilots underwent intensive short-field takeoff
    practise to be able to get off the deck of the carriers.  They did a
    one way mission over Tokyo, then headed for China.  Some of them
    actually made it.  The movie and book "30 seconds over Tokyo" document
    the training and the raid.  Brave men on a very dangerous mission.
    
    DougO

    "Nuts".
    
    Battle of the Bulge, 50 years, just last week.
    
    

    Battle of the Bulge goes on every day in the Cruel Spa!:) 

    
    RE: Doolittle raid
    
      Some of the planes on the bombing mission were shot down and their
      crew captured. They were then executed.
    
      Paul
    

    
    	My Father fought at Ardennes (SP) as a 18 year old machine-gunner.
    Growing up he never would go shooting with us or hold a gun for that
    matter. The local rag interviewed him a few weeks back. He says he
    still hates going into woods......also claims that the lack of
    circulation in his legs was caused by the cold weather over there.
    Doesn't talk much about it but is one proud guy...

    my dad was navigator in the Army Air Corps and participated in the
    campaigns over North Africa and then the crucial bombing missions over
    Romanian oil fields of Ploeshy (sp?) that crimpled Hitler's oil
    reserves.

    Dad was in the army but not really near any action. He ended up on
    Prince Rupert Island of all places.  Don't know why.  Good looking in a
    uniform though.  
    
    Brian

    My father was on a suicide mission on a transport to Japan...of course
    the poor souls didn't know it at the time.  They dropped the bomb and
    half way over he was rerouted to the Philippeans where he drove a tank!
    
    -Jack

I met a guy at the barber shop who was radio operator on a B17 over
Germany...

My father joined the Navy just as the war in the Pacific was winding down...
saw more after-the-fact destruction than action. He's always amazed at what
all those little islands have grown into lately...

    The curse of perfect spelling strikes again...

    drdan:
    
    the curse of reading comprehension hits again (sp?)

    :-)

    Buck's basic WWII summary:
    
    The Japanese -- lost WWII, but 50 years later, they've won the war.
    
    The Nazis -- they were crazy, but I sort of liked their "spirit." 

    My father was a mechanic in the Air Corps in North Africa. Was
    discharged in late '43.  Nowadays they call it Post something or other
    disorder.  The most visible sign that remains of his service is
    that he learned to eat his meal before the air raids came.  Still
    does.  -- and I mean fast.
    
    ed

    post traumatic stress disorder

 My Dad was in Army Intelligence in Dubbya Dubbya II.  Never talked alot
 about what went on, but he did have a bunch of neat weapons that he kept
 in a box in the garage..also spoke a few times of his meeting Douglas
 McArthur..



Jim 

>            <<< Note 203.12 by POWDML::LAUER "Had, and then was" >>>
>
>    
>    "Nisei" is a Japanese term for a first generation half-Japanese/half-non
>    person, kind of like people used to use mulatto, quadroon, etc.  My
    
    I think you're off a bit here, especially with the pejorative
    connotation.  Nisei (literally "second born") means a person of
    Japanese ancestry whose parents were born in Japan, but who was born in
    the country to which the parents emigrated. That is, a "second
    generation" Japanese.  
    
    The "sei" here is the same as in the word "sensei" (literally "before
    born"), which is the polite way to address an elder or social superior.
    Sensei is often used generically as "teacher"
    
    
    re: .1
    
    > For Christmas, I recommend a WWII movie called "A Midnight Clear"
    
    Don't know the movie, but is it possible you are referring to the
    famous Christmas Eve unauthorized party in  no-mans-land between the
    demoralized enlisted men of the German and British armies in WWI -
    maybe 1916?
    
    Kit

    
    Excuse me - pejorative?  Please take your insults elsewhere.
    
    When I lived in Japan, nisei was explained to me exactly as I noted in
    .12.

    "half non-person" doesn't imply some, shall we say, disrespect?
    
    Mulatto and quadroon relate to the mixing of the white and black races,
    with all the historical connotations thereof.  The Japanese are
    particularly conscious of race purity. If you are suggesting that
    someone told you that "nisei" meant a mixing of Japanese and other
    people, it would definitely had a pejorative meaning.
    
    But anyways, "nisei" has nothing to do with "half non-persons" or
    mixed race, or whatever. Its meaning is exactly as I described it, and
    I thought the guy who originally asked what it meant might like to
    know.
    
    And, hey, what's this about "please take your insults elsewhere"?
    Twerent my insults. I was just pointing out that the pejorative
    connotation inherent in the explanation you received of "nisei" do not
    exist in the real meaning of "nisei".
    
    Whew!
    
    Kit

    |re: .1
    |
    |    > For Christmas, I recommend a WWII movie called "A Midnight Clear"
    |
    |    Don't know the movie, but is it possible you are referring to the
    |    famous Christmas Eve unauthorized party in  no-mans-land between the
    |    demoralized enlisted men of the German and British armies in WWI -
    |    maybe 1916?
    
    
    The movie I saw is a WWII version of what you speak.
    
    

    well, that's a true and amazing story, but it actually occurred in WWI
    
    Kit

    First day back at work and I stumble on this topic - basically the
    whole thing is a waste of time.  My grandfather was a German artillery
    observer in WW1, who went up in ballons to see what was going on.  My
    wifes father was an Australian pilot who shot down amongst other things
    German artillery baloons.  Guess I'm lucky he didn't get that
    particular one.  
    
    
    In WW2 an uncle flew reconnaisance ME109's.  The only thing that could
    catch him were Mosquitoes.  Sure enough he visited us in Australia and
    at the yacht club met a few Mosquito pilots - again no harm done.
    
    The whole thing serves just to show the pointlessness of it all - apart
    from providing movie plots and notes topics.
    
    Axel

    
    If you'll look at .12 again, you'll see I said half-Japanese/half non,
    as in half-non-Japanese, not half non-person.
    
    The person who told me was Japanese, married to an American, and she
    considered her children nisei.
    
    We disagree.

    re: .54
    
    Hmm...that's a bit weird. If she was married to an American and lived
    in the US, perhaps she could call her child "nisei". But the real
    meaning is as I described it.  Honest!
    
    Example: one of the things that hurt Japanese-Americans the most in
    WWII was that nisei were rounded up and sent to camps, not just
    Japanese immigrants (not that even that was justifiable). These were
    American citizens, some of whom didn't even speak Japanese, and who had
    never been to Japan.
    
    Kit

re: "nisei"

According to my Japanese-language dictionary:

1. a Japanese child who was given birth in other country than Japan and 
   has _that_ country's citizenship(nationality)
-OR-
2. Parents' first son who is supposed to become the head of the family in 
   the future

FWIW,
"nisei" in Kanji is composed of two Kanji characters in a way of "ni-sei"
where "ni" means "second" and "sei" means "generation".  So, "nisei" 
literally means "second generation".
"sensei" in Kanji is in a way of "sen-sei" where "sen" means "before" and
"sei" in this case means "born".

_Tak

    re nisei
        
    gawd i do love stirring up violent controversy.

    Domo Arigato, Tak.
    
    If I ever see Mrs.Niimi again, I shall chastise her severely for
    misleading this gaijin 8^).                   

    Tak,
    
    RE: "sei" as "generation" (nisei) vs. "sei" as born (sensei) -- Are you
    saying they are different characters? My comments on this subject were
    really an extrapolation from Korean and Chinese (my  Japanese was only
    enough to travel, eat, get a room etc), but I believe that in those
    languages the Chinese character is the same, simply translated
    differently, as required for clarity, either as "generation" or "born".
    
    The words are the same in the three languages, only pronounced
    differently.  And, I believe "nisei" is more generally in use in
    Japanese than in the others -- whereas "sensei" is standard and common
    throughout the three.
    
    However, it's been over 20 years since I spoke or read Chinese or
    Korean, and I could be wrong. But thanks for backing me up on the
    meaning of "nisei"!
    
    Kit
    

    I could tell that was a real Japanese <=> English dictionary too:
    all the prepositions were missing! :-) :-) :-)
    
    -b
    
    (I know I entered this before, but I said "pronouns" for some reason...
    must be too early in the day... :-)

re: .58 (and .59)
>                                  I shall chastise her severely for

Meanings of terms and words are subject to change as time goes by, and also
rely on a context where they are used.  The less chances they have to
be used, the more vague the meanings become.  Even in Japan, the term "nisei" 
seldom shows up in ordinally conversations.  So, I'm not surprised to see 
"nisei" could be given another connotation in other countries such as in the 
USA.  

re: .59
>    RE: "sei" as "generation" (nisei) vs. "sei" as born (sensei) -- Are you
>    saying they are different characters? 

Yes, they are different in Kanji.  
For those who don't know about the Japanese character sets, we use three 
sets for writing: Hiragana, Katakana, Kanji.  Kanji is Chinese origin.

_Tak

    > For those who don't know about the Japanese character sets, we use
    > three  sets for writing: Hiragana, Katakana, Kanji.  Kanji is Chinese
    > origin.
    
    I thought 'Romaji' was considered a forth character set for writing
    Japanese, especially useful in ASCII environments.  For example, the
    words  Hiragana, Katakana, Kanji, and Romaji are all written in Romaji.
    
    DougO

re: .62 (DougO)

Going off the WWII topic.  Can you copy your reply to the Japan topic?  
I'll try answering there.

Thanks,
_Tak

    I dunno, _Tak -- imho, asking someone to UN-rathole a topic in
    DECnotes, and esPECially in ::SOAPBOX, goes against our prevailing
    social norms... A bit more sensitivity to our local Cyberian culture
    might be in order...
    
    :-) x 10+6
    
    |-{:-)

	Just got a bit of mail from the 'net claiming that Japan was in the
midst of peace talks being negotiated by some european country when we dropped
the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The 'net not being the most reliable source
of info(!), I thought I'd put it up here for discussion.


jim

    .65
    
    bollox.

    Not only that, it's not true either.

    
    
    	thanks for the indepth analysis gents....:*)
    
    
    

    
    How do you say 'mouthful' in Japanese???
    
    POL   :>>>

I read in yesterday's Japanese newspaper.  The followings is my summary.

	You may well know Mr. Kato, a member of the crew on Star Treck, 
acted by J. Takei.  Takei, 57 years old, recently published a book, 
"To The Stars", that based on his own experience at a relocation center 
(aka, the camp).  Takei mentioned in an interview on his book - basically
saying that he hoped the awareness of the centers and that that was not a 
history of Nikkeijin but of America.  He also made a contribution of $20,000 
to the Nikkeijin Museum at Little Tokyo, L.A..  (I may have the Museum name 
wrong. "Nikkei-jin" is another Japanese term.)  
	On last November, Some of the old baracks of a relocation center at 
Heart Mounting, Wyoming (sp?), was moved to the Museum's neighboring place, and 
was made open to the public.  Special exhibition has also been taken place: 
photos, daily necessities, a documentary film(s) (8mm).  It's been said that 
there were at least 10 relocation centers in the US.

_Tak

re: .65 (jim) - some european country

A wild guess - Switzerland, isn't it?   


Well.. actually, not a wild guess.  I remembered reading a booklet, published 
a few years ago, that has a half page mentioning about a reaction right after 
the A-bombing on Hiroshima. 

_Tak

>A wild guess - Switzerland, isn't it?   


	You're probably right. I just read the note in passing and didn't get
all the details...it was just an off the cuff thing to post something here. :)


jim

    My Grandfather (moms side) fought in the Pacific with the Marines; 
    He too had very little to say about what he witnessed.  Grandpa
    did discuss the physical problems that he still suffered loooonnnngggg
    after the war.  I was lucky to get some of his military photos;
    Most went up in a fire at my parents house...  
    
    My dads side of the family has some real intersting historical notes.
    Dads family is from Kiev "Russia"; yet, they were Germans who had
    resided in the the steppes for hundreds of years. Anywa, the 
    Bolsheviks took everything, in the name of the "revolution", and
    the Nazi' told them that they weren't german. So, all those
    that were in the process of leaving Russia were fair game from all
    sides.  
    
    Dad lost an older brother and uncle.  Had another uncle forced into the
    SS as a tank driver, and a cousin that was "captured" and spent the
    next 30 years in the "GULAG"; the Russians let him out in 1978.  He
    now resides in Canada, has some real sad/intersting stories.
    
    Could go on..but ...
    
    Sin-te-da

    > This note is for discussion of World War II.
    
    WW twice happened too!