Conference back40::soapbox

    
    Well Jack
    
    Willie Horton was one of the finest power hitters the Detroit Tigers
    ever had, in addition to Norm Cash and Jim Northrup. Hope this helps.
    :-)
    
    Mark

Re          <<< Note 127.0 by AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!" >>>

>    However, I need to understand.  I believe the Willie Horton Ads that
>    Bush used in 1988 were truthful and justifiable.  What was the big
>    stink about using these ads?  I must have missed something!!
    
  Black activists claimed that Willie Horton was selected because he was black
and that use of the ad played on people's fear of blacks in general. 

  The truthful part comes from the GOP's failure to point out that the furlough
program that released Willie Horton from a Massachusetts prison was started
under Republican Governor Francis Sergeant and hence Republicans should have
shared blame for Horton's actions.

  George 

    Yes, I remember Willie Horton and Andre Thornton from Detroit.  There
    was also a guy on that Detroit tem who was paroled before he played for
    them.  The name eludes me but we used to yell "Jailbird" at Fenway
    Park.
    
    George, Okay...it makes sense about Republicans sharing blame; however,
    the black activism part is nonsense.  
    
    -Jack

    It was also bogus because the federal government did not thena nd does
    not now have a furlough program.  It was a state issue, and thus
    entirely symbolic.  
    
    When you reintroduce the symbolism question, then the very blackness of
    Willie Horton legitimizes the outrage of the black community over using
    it in the first place.

    
    
    
    The point of bringing up the race issue by the dems was to put the
    repubs on the defensive and it worked.
    
    
    Mike

    The race issue was "brought up" when the Republicans played the card
    by running the ad.  And it worked.

    
    
    
    
    Nah Steve, if you were honest, you'd amit I was right.  In reality it
    was the dems who exploited the race thing by bringing it up.
    
    
    Mike

RE   <<< Note 127.7 by GRANPA::MWANNEMACHER "Montanabound, oneof these days" >>>

>    Nah Steve, if you were honest, you'd amit I was right.  In reality it
>    was the dems who exploited the race thing by bringing it up.
    
  Well the Republicans started the exploitation by using a Republican furlough
program against the democrats in the 1st place. That "revolving door" was
built and installed by Republican governors.

  George

    Steve:
    
    The race aspect didn't even cross my mind until the media brought it
    up.  
    
    I just thought it was kind of ridiculous.  Whether white or black, the
    message was that we didn't want a liberal governor with liberal POV on
    crime living in the White House.
    
    -Jack

    DID NOT!
    DID TO!
    DID NOT!
    DID TO!
    

    Mike, if you were honest you'd admit that Willie Horton was selected
    precisely *because* he was black.

RE:          <<< Note 127.3 by AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!" >>>

   > Yes, I remember Willie Horton and Andre Thornton from Detroit.  There
   > was also a guy on that Detroit tem who was paroled before he played for
   > them.  The name eludes me but we used to yell "Jailbird" at Fenway
   > Park.
    


  Ron LaFlore (something like that)?



 Jim

    
    
    
    
    You know that for a fact, Steve?  I didn't think so.....
    
    
    George,
    
    You have defeated yourself.  If the Dem response was that the policy
    was instituted by a repub, it would have been a home run.  Since they
    didn't and went with the race thing, it makes them the exploiters.
    
    
    Mike

    
    i have heard over the years that the ad was not even sponsored by the
    repubs per say, but a lone ranger named Brown, i think.
    
    jeff

Re  <<< Note 127.13 by GRANPA::MWANNEMACHER "Montanabound, oneof these days" >>>

>    You have defeated yourself.  If the Dem response was that the policy
>    was instituted by a repub, it would have been a home run.  Since they
>    didn't and went with the race thing, it makes them the exploiters.
    
  How have I defeated myself? Your opinion is hardly conclusive.

  The Republicans exploited the Willie Horton situation to take a shot at
the Democrats. The strategy selected by the democrats does not diminish
that fact.

  George

    >Mike, if you were honest you'd admit that Willie Horton was selected
    >precisely *because* he was black.
    
     Malarkey. As if a white guy who committed the crimes Horton did would
    not have been used... Racist garbage, Steve. Racist garbage. I am
    floored that you continue to stoop so low. Not that I ought to be
    surprised.

    
    Wasn't one reason Horton was selected because Dukakis
    refused to meet with the couple Horton terrorized after parole?
    
    Anyhow, my feelings were exactly those of Jack a few notes ago.
    
    
    							Hank

Re            <<< Note 127.17 by HANNAH::MODICA "Journeyman Noter" >>>

>    Wasn't one reason Horton was selected because Dukakis
>    refused to meet with the couple Horton terrorized after parole?
    
  No, Horton was selected and his picture was plastered all over the mid west
where by the grandest of coincidence the racial impact was the greatest.

  The GOP then challenged Dukakis to meet with the couple even though no one
ever identified any way in which Dukakis had anything to do with Horton.

  Jesse Jackson then accused the GOP of being racist.

  The GOP then invented the revolving door ad.

  George

    	Wasn't Horton an elephant?

    
    
    Horton was picked because he was the freshest case available... period!
    
    Jesse Jackson's a dolt BTW...
    

    Yes Jim!  Ron LaFlore was the individual!
    
    -Jack

     I am going to go through the history of the Willie Horton flap for
     those who don't live in the Merrimack Valley and don't read the
     Lawrence Eagle Tribune ....

     Willie Horton was in jail for the murder of 16 year old gas station
     attendant in Lawrence.  The murder was especially vicious, with Horton
     cutting off the boy's genitalia and putting it in his mouth to show
     off to an accomplice.  The boy's body was stuffed in a trash can and
     further mutilation was done. He was convicted of 1st degree murder and
     sentenced to life in prison.

     Later while on an unsupervised week-end furlough (note: not parole -
     1st degree murders aren't allowed out on parole by law), Horton did not
     return and was declared to have escaped.  About a week later Maryland
     police apprehended him and an accomplice had terrorized a married
     couple over the course of a weekend.  During such time, Horton was
     accused of raping the wife in front of the husband, mutilating the
     wife's breasts in front of the husband, and stabbing the husband while
     forcing the wife to plead for his life.

     When Maryland police ran him through NCIC, they found he was
     supposedly in a Mass prison.  Even though he had been declared
     "escaped" the previous week, Mass had not yet posted the name in NCIC
     database.  Next when they returned him, they found that he had been on
     unsupervised furlough.  This prompted a big news conference where the
     Maryland authorities expressed outrage that a 1st degree murder
     convict was let out on an unsupervised visit.

     The local paper (Lawrence Eagle Tribune) got into the act and
     contacted the original victim's family.  The gas attendant's family
     went ballistic when they found out that Horton had 'escaped' and that
     this was his nth (I remember it was something like 8th) furlough. 
     They demanded that Dukakis suspend the furlough program for murderers.
     The local paper also documented the number of 'escapes' by 1st degree
     murders and other convicts.

     The Corrections Commissioner argued that even 1st degree murderers get
     out eventually because usually their sentences were commuted by the
     governor, and that such a carrot needed to be held out to that prison
     population to secure good behavior. Mike listened to the Commissioner
     and supported that viewpoint.  He refused to meet with the gas
     attendant's family and refused to meet with the Maryland couple, which
     made some great headlines locally. He also refused to give an
     'apology' that the victims demanded, making a statement that the state
     did not do any wrong.  This of course went over very poorly.

     The local paper started giving lots of press to this and the
     administration invoked the CORI act which restricts information the
     state can give about convicted offenders. Dukakis stood four square
     behind the interpretation that CORI prevented them giving out any
     information about prisoner's record/behavior while they were in prison
     not just after they had been released. (CORI was later repealed.) This
     provoked the local paper even more, who started going through court
     and police records to reconstruct the failure of the furlough program.

     Dukakis continued to take his 'principled' stand, and petitions began
     to circulate through the Merrimack Valley to put a ballot question on
     the next election (which would have been the presidential primary) to
     repeal furloughs.  Enough signatures collected in the Merrimack Valley
     to assure a place on the ballot.  Dukakis finally caved in when it was
     evident that he would lose big.  By executive order, he eliminated
     furloughs for 1st degree murders.  I remember standing in a line for
     25 minutes for my fiance' to sign the petition in the North Andover
     police station - that's how popular it was.


     .... Now fast forward to the NH democratic primary ....

     One of Democratic candidates had run an ad (Biden?) using the Willie
     Horton flap, but it wasn't an issue that excited the NH democratic
     electorate so it was dropped.

     .... Now fast forward to the presidential election ....


     The Lawrence Eagle Tribune wins the Pulitzer Prize for their coverage
     of Willie Horton and prison furlough system.  They continue to run
     stories critical of Dukakis handling of crime issues.  Republicans
     pick up the issue, and finds it works very well for them.

     ....

     Now it seems to be the general belief among Democrats that Roger Ailes
     used the ad for it's racial value. Most people from our area believe
     the ad demonstrated Dukakis's softness of crime issues, and general
     arrogance.  Everybody knew that the furlough program had started under
     earlier administrations, but when it was exposed and shown to be a
     danger, Dukakis worried about the prisoner's rights and wouldn't even
     apologize to the victims. That was what people held against the Gov. 

     Contrast this to Weld's actions when a problem came up with 2nd degree
     murders on furlough.  The first action was to stop the program
     immediately, start an investigation, and modify the rules later to
     only furloughs as part of the release process.

     /jim
    
                                                       

RE              <<< Note 127.20 by SOLVIT::KRAWIECKI "grep this!" >>>

>    Horton was picked because he was the freshest case available... period!
    
  Right, and it was just by the grandest coincidence that he was black and that
he was from Massachusetts. No doubt we came within days of a white woman from
Nebraska being selected. 

>    Jesse Jackson's a dolt BTW...
    
  Now there's a well thought in depth analysis if I've ever seen one.

  George

    
    
    
    
    Read .22, George.
    
    
    
    

    Anent .22 (MCWILLIAMS):  Thanks for taking the time to enter that.
    
    Knowing as you do the nuances of the story, you might view it as an
    example of Dukakis arrogance, but I think the issue resonated
    nationally for different reasons, race being one of them.
    
    You said that the furlough program started under a previous
    administration.  I wonder how many people knew that nationally?
    You said that Horton was not the only person furloughed under the
    program.  I wonder how many people knew that nationally?
    You said that Horton was not the first person to commit a crime while
    on furlough.  I wonder how many people knew that nationally?  Finally,
    you said that under public pressure Governor Dukakis shut down the
    program.  I wonder how many people knew that nationally?

    
    
    Steve, it wasn't the repubs job to say it was started under a repub
    guv, the dems could have hit a home run if they had brought that to
    light. 
    
    Mike

    
    RE: .23
    
    Pure speculation on your part about the coincidence....
    
    > Now there's a well thought in depth analysis if I've ever seen one.
    
    Ever really stop and read some of your own garbage???
    

RE:         <<< Note 127.21 by AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!" >>>

   > Yes Jim!  Ron LaFlore was the individual!
    
    

    LaVar Burton played him in the movie, with Billy Martin (as mgr of the
    Tigers) playing himself.



Jim

    I thought Horton heard a Who??
    
    

RE  <<< Note 127.24 by GRANPA::MWANNEMACHER "Montanabound, oneof these days" >>>

>    Read .22, George.
    
  I read it. That Willie Horton was one bad dude.

  But shock of shocks, he wasn't the only bad dude to ever walk the face of the
earth. And like the rest of the GOP propaganda with regard to Willie Horton it
says nothing of the fact that he got out on a furlough program started by
former Republican Governor Francis Sargent. 

  Now I wonder, why didn't all those conservative think tank types call on
Sargent to apologize? Could it be that they didn't give a rats ass about the
people injured and only wanted to use them to attack the democrats? 

  George 

    dukakis's response was ammo enough, i think.

    
    
    
    I told you that it worked a few notes ago, George.  

Re              <<< Note 127.27 by SOLVIT::KRAWIECKI "grep this!" >>>

>    > Now there's a well thought in depth analysis if I've ever seen one.
>    Ever really stop and read some of your own garbage???
    
  Getting a bit testy are we?

  I'll bet preaching the "right" type of thought is a lot more fun when there
is no opposition.

  George

    
    As quickly as you can, name Bill Weld's Willie Horton.
    
    								-mr. bill

RE                      <<< Note 127.31 by USAT05::BENSON >>>

>    dukakis's response was ammo enough, i think.

  Right, it was ammo for GOP mud slinging.

  I'm not saying Dukakis ran a smart campaign, far from it. He should have
slung the mud back at Bush as fast as it came in. Clinton did that 4 years
later and won the election. 

  George

    
    not only that meowski but it reflected a good deal of dukakis's
    apparently unpopular beliefs.
    
    jeff

RE                      <<< Note 127.38 by USAT05::BENSON >>>

>    not only that meowski but it reflected a good deal of dukakis's
>    apparently unpopular beliefs.
    
  Yeah right bend-some, and the 1992 election reflected a good deal of Bush's
apparently unpopular beliefs. 

  Funny how the Republicans got to share in being unpopular once the Democrats
started slinging their own mud.

  George

>  Funny how the Republicans got to share in being unpopular once the Democrats
>started slinging their own mud.

    	I'm confused.  Are you talking about 1994?  Or was there no Dem
    	mud slinging this last time around...

    The ad showed Willie Horton as a big, dark, ugly, glowering black
    man.  Now, that probably wasn't the only or main reason the ad's
    creators selected him -- but it sure was the icing on the cake.

    I wonder if they "enhanced" the Horton photo to make him look even
    darker and more menacing, the way Time magazine did with O. J.
    Simpson's mug shot...
    
    mr. bill, you have us at a disadvantage.  I cannot recall the guy you
    obviously have in mind.  I'm sure we'll hear all about him if Bill runs
    for President 8^)

RE              <<< Note 127.40 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "I'm an orca." >>>

>    	I'm confused.  Are you talking about 1994?  Or was there no Dem
>    	mud slinging this last time around...

  We're talking presidential elections here. They come every 4 years in years
that are divisible by 4 such as 1988, 1992. The next one will be in 1996 and
will coincide with the Democrats taking back control of the Congress, the
Republicans having shot many holes in their feet by then.

  George

Wait, I distinctly remember that Horton Hatched the Egg.

(Hard to forget the taunts of 9-year-old classmates when *that* book came out.)

-Jerry

    re: .45
    
    Was that before or after he heard a who??

    Anent .16: Doctah, the Willie Horton issue was picked up by the
    Republicans because it was so effective at driving up the Dukakis
    negatives.  And it was so effective because Horton was black.  In
    _Whose Broad Stripes and Bright Stars?_ Germond and Witcover quoted Lee
    Atwater as saying he knew it had caught on when even blacks mentioned
    it.

    were Horton's victims blacks?

    
    
    
    Chelsea, the photo I remember seeing was from the neck up.  I don't
    know how you get "big and towering" out of that......

    We give up...who is Bill Welds Willie Horton???

    The couple Willie terrorized while out on furlough were white.

    
    RE: .50
    
    Forget it Jack... He'll call you stupid or clueless and tell you to go
    find out yourself...
    
    Either that or tell you the answer and inform you of your ignorance for
    not knowing in the first place...
    
      I figured I'd warn you so's you don't have to play his game after
    this...
    
      Hope this helps  ;)
    

  Re .48:

  Does it matter?

The boy that Horton mutilated and killed and dumped into the 
trash can at the gas station on Merrimack st. was white. He was 
Rep. Donna Fournier Cuomo's brother.

daryll

 >>>>   ASDG::HORTON "Paving Info Highway with Si" 
    
    Yikes!  Identify yourself please!

    I was curious since there wouldn't have been such a brouhaha if the
    victims were black now, would there have been?  And to me, THAT is
    racist!
    

RE                   <<< Note 127.56 by PNTAGN::WARRENFELTZR >>>

>    I was curious since there wouldn't have been such a brouhaha if the
>    victims were black now, would there have been?  And to me, THAT is
>    racist!
    
  This was part of the original complaint about the ad.

  As I recall, Jesse Jackson et.al. made the claim that the ad was racist
because they showed a particularly threatening picture of a black. They went on
to say that the conservative think tanks were playing on white Middle
American's fears of black on white assault. They saw the "revolving door" ad
as a threat of how if elected Dukakis would let all the blacks out of jail
which would allow them to attack whites. 

  They theorized that had the assailant been white or had he been a black that
attacked other blacks in a black section of town, people would not have reacted
nearly as much as they did.

  George

    
    RE: .57
    
    >As I recall, Jesse Jackson et.al. made the claim
                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    >They theorized
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    
     Should say it all....
    

    Re: .49
    
    >the photo I remember seeing was from the neck up.  I don't know how
    >you get "big and towering" out of that
    
    From my .41:
    
    |...Willie Horton as a big, dark, ugly, glowering black man.
    
    Wanna try that again?

RE              <<< Note 127.58 by SOLVIT::KRAWIECKI "grep this!" >>>

>    >As I recall, Jesse Jackson et.al. made the claim
>                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    >They theorized
>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    
>     Should say it all....
    

  I don't see your point. Taken by themselves those lines say almost nothing.

  Are you trying to make some sort of general statement that all theories
are wrong?

  If so, is that a theory?

  If it is, then by your own reasoning you are wrong.

  George

    
    RE: .60
    
    >I don't see your point. Taken by themselves those lines say almost
    nothing.
    
    >Are you trying to make some sort of general statement that all theories
    > are wrong?
    
    
      What I'm trying to say is that more often than not, "theoretical
    statements" such as those are taken as fact....
    
     Jesse Jackson "made a claim"... ergo it must be so!!
    
     "They theorized..." ergo it must be so!!...
    
     All newscasters tell us the truth, because it's on TV and they would
    never lie to us... ergo it must be so!!

Re              <<< Note 127.61 by SOLVIT::KRAWIECKI "grep this!" >>>

>    
>      What I'm trying to say is that more often than not, "theoretical
>    statements" such as those are taken as fact....
>    
>     Jesse Jackson "made a claim"... ergo it must be so!!
>    
>     "They theorized..." ergo it must be so!!...

  I think if you go back and look at the base note the original question asked
what was the controversy regarding Willie Horton. No one is saying that it is
so because of Jackon's claim, what we are saying was that it was an issue
because of the discrepancy between what the GOP did and what Jackson claimed. 
    
>     All newscasters tell us the truth, because it's on TV and they would
>    never lie to us... ergo it must be so!!

  But since no liberal can ever get on TV or radio it's all those conservative
talk show hosts who are lying to us, right?

  George

    
    It must be... MUST BE.. something in his drinking water...
    

    Captain! Captain!  This note -- well, Captain, we seem to be in a time
    warp here.
    
    Spock cutting in Captain.  Mr Scott is right.  By my calculations,
    we'll be discussing the Dewey-Truman election by week's end and
    Lincoln-Douglas debates by next week.
    
    Kirk here.  Scott, we need more power, and we need it now!

    .22 Sums it all up. I was overjoyed that the little tank driver was 
    soundly defeated. It was a golden opportunity to get rid of him as
    governor so we should offer a special thanks to those Dems who talked
    him into being the Dem sacrifice in the presidential race that year.
    Now, the Duke is teaching in a college (I think at Northeastern Univ)
    and is no longer courted for political favors. I would think after all
    he did for the Mass. economy, that a political endorsement from the
    Duke would be devastating to any candidate. Hopefully, the course he is
    teaching is "How to destroy a state's economy" or how to run a $750
    million surplus into a $500 million deficit. Willie Horton's furlough 
    happened on the Duke's watch. Period. His failure to apologize to the 
    couple who were tortured/raped by Horton, showed him for what he is.
    Personally, if that had been my wife raped by Horton, I might just be
    tempted to drop into Duke-o's class, and drive a size 9 dead up his
    butt. 

    Anent .65 (CLARK):
    
    >> Personally, if that had been my wife raped by Horton, I might just
    >> be tempted to drop into Duke-o's class, and drive a size 9 dead up his
    >> butt.
    
    Tell me: Would that be because you are personally afraid of Willie 
    himself?

    .67 "Or maybe cause he's black"
    You can cram that pseudo-racist crap. The reason, in case you missed
    it, would be due to a felon like that being furloughed and having raped
    my wife. Wouldn't matter one way or the other to me what color the
    rapist was. This scumbag should be dangling from a rope.

    .63:
    
    Dietary aluminium is a recent speculation.
    
    
    .66:
    
    Nah, that's just to kill some time waiting for Horton to get out.
    
    Dick

    Anent .68 (CLARK): I think perhaps you missed the point of my question.
    You wrote in .65 that if Willie Horton had raped your wife, you'd run
    over and kick Mike Dukakis's butt.  Now that you have in .68 expressed
    the wish to see Horton lynched, I was wondering why you didn't direct
    any of that understandable anger at the person or persons who approved
    his furlough.  (Surely you don't think Governor Dukakis did that sort
    of thing himself, do you?)  Or how about the person who started the
    furlough program?  Why the Duke?

    .70 is a perfect example of the racism of the left, amply demonstrated
    in this instance by Jongy. Clark said that as a rapist and murderer,
    Willie Horton should have "dangled at the end of a rope." A brief
    history lesson: those crimes used to be punished in many areas by
    hanging. Now Jongy, used the term lynching. Lynching is entirely
    different from hanging, because it signifies an illegal, not judicial,
    hanging. It is a particularly charged word because it describes an act
    which was perpetrated upon blacks (innocence or guilt was unrelated,
    but their skin color...) by lawless whites. Jongy is a wordsmith; his
    job requires him to write with precision. It is no accident that he
    used this emotion laden and wholly inappropriate word. In true form, he
    was injecting racism into an otherwise non-racist discussion. When you
    look to see who promulgates racism, Steve, the mirror would be an
    obvious place to start.
    
     It gets my vote for slimy tactic of the week. 

    <- Ahhh, so there never have been any whites, asians, indians, etc...
       hanged without due process...
    
       Wordy's format must be too closely laid down... I missed the stuff
       in between the lines.
    
       Chip

    
    
    Well put Doc.
    
    
    Mike

    ]<- Ahhh, so there never have been any whites, asians, indians, etc...
    ]    hanged without due process...
     
    Are you deliberately trying not to get the point, or is this a case of
    inadvertent obtuseness?
    
    If you heard that there was gonna be a lynching, what image would
    appear in your mind?

    Mr. Wordy's rep aside... my statement is my position and I stand
    by it.
    
    My image of "lynching"? Honestly, I would not associate it to race.
    Believe it or not (you don't know me), that's okay.
    
    Chip

    Anent .71: Doctah, I did indeed use "lynch" correctly, thank you.
    
    Here's my reasoning.  There is no death penalty in Massachusetts.
    While there is capital punishment in Maryland, where I believe Willie
    did his furlough thing, I don't believe the proscribed method is 
    hanging.  Therefore, I conclude that any call to string Willie up is a
    call for an illegal execution, i.e., a lynching.
    
    I would have to agree with Chip that lynching is not always a racial
    act; one recalls Wild West hangings.  But I don't shrink from the
    mention of race.  After all, that is, I claim, the whole tenor of the
    Horton ads in the first place!  It's *you* who claim it was not racist;
    your statement in .71 that I "was injecting racism into an otherwise
    non-racist discussion" is simply an attempt to win the argument through
    definition.

prEscribed.

"proscribed" means exactly the opposite.

/john

    Hey, I can't prove nuthin', but I think it naive to suppose that race
    wasn't an essential element in the choice of Willie Horton.
    
    So, are there any reputable histories of the 1988 campaign that can
    tell us what the Bush campaigners thought and did?
    
    Kit

    I keep *doing* that 8^(

    No liberal can ever get on TV or radio ? 
    
    Hint: Watch the network news. read the glob, they still have control
    of most of the media, Rush, Liddy, etc are just "equal time".
    
    No one is stopping tthe limolibs from having a nationally syndicated
    talk show. Just there are no real contenders for Chief Talk Jock, 
    and listenership would be dismally small.
    
    I listen to both sides of the issue, just the limolibs talk such crap
    that I cannot take them seriously.
    
    

                <<< Note 127.81 by CSSREG::BROWN "KB1MZ FN42" >>>
                            -< Dan Blather, etc... >-

>    I listen to both sides of the issue, just the limolibs talk such crap
>    that I cannot take them seriously.

There's listening, and then there's listening with comprehension. 
Apparently you do some of the former and none of the latter.