| Title: | Soapbox. Just Soapbox. |
| Notice: | No more new notes |
| Moderator: | WAHOO::LEVESQUE ONS |
| Created: | Thu Nov 17 1994 |
| Last Modified: | Fri Jun 06 1997 |
| Last Successful Update: | Fri Jun 06 1997 |
| Number of topics: | 862 |
| Total number of notes: | 339684 |
I just read Topic 44 "Crime and Punishment" and I have the feeling that
I'm not the only one who gets the distinct impression that democracy is
beginning to slide. Mentions of Police states and "yup, it's working"
prompt this topic.
Here in the UK more than a few folk have been left wondering why they
elected their particular Conservative MP. Apart from the fact that we
now pay Value Added Tax on fuel, which nobody wanted to do, we have
more recently been treated to news reports that, if Tory MPs did not
toe their Party line in the matter of agreeing increased contributions
to the EC, they would be expelled from the Party altogether.
It didn't quite come to that, although (I think) eight Tories have had
the Party Whip withdrawn which basically means that they have a chance
to redeem themselves in their leaders' eyes by toeing the line in
future.
I may be horribly naive but I was under the impression that one elects
an MP/Congressman to represent, to the appropriate house of government,
the overall views of the local community?
VAT on fuel was immensely unpopular, even among MPs, so how did it
become Law? Simple, and this was reported in several media: If MPs
wanted a chance at a more senior position in a later government by
their Party, they had to vote for imposition of the tax. They duly
voted, serving no-one's interest but their own.
Expulsion for voting against your own Party in the matter of the EC.
Fine, they have kids and mortgages like the rest of us but I know one
Tory MP who will not be getting my vote next time around because he
failed to do what I help to employ him for. He voted to serve the
interests of a dozen people within the very upper echelons of his Party.
I will be one of millions of people who will pay for this. Lack of
respect for this man is rife in my home area. Had he voted against the
government in this matter he would have retained, and probably gained,
more than enough respect to stand in the Election which would have
resulted as an Independent candidate - Ind. Conservative if he wished.
I'm not particularly getting at the Tories here (honest!). All Parties
now have the Whip, whose responsibility it is to try and ensure that
votes are placed in their Party's favour. I submit that this measure
should be outlawed as undemocratic and that such practices as threats
to MPs' personal security, once exposed, should be declared illegal and
the voting result declared null and void by the High Court or The Upper
House.
What's the situation in the US; do these practices exist?
Daz
| T.R | Title | User | Personal Name | Date | Lines |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 125.1 | CALDEC::RAH | the truth is out there. | Thu Dec 01 1994 01:59 | 17 | |
there is no formal party discipline in Congress.
indeed, one senator switched party affiliation
the morning after. quite disgraceful really..
of course, they have to square accounts with their party
when they run for reelection or for higher office, depending
on whom they offended by voting in a wayward manner.
5 local congress members (SF Bay area of CA) voted against
their president and party on the GATT buisness, but not
a great deal of sleep will be lost as it passed quite handsomely.
parties are really much looser here than in a parliamentary system
with their falling governments (Major seems to be hanging in though).
| |||||
| 125.2 | POLAR::RICHARDSON | The Quintessential Gruntling | Thu Dec 01 1994 11:24 | 1 | |
Is democracy a hyena fart? | |||||
| 125.3 | ASABET::EARLY | Why plan a comeback? Just do it! | Thu Dec 01 1994 11:59 | 8 | |
>>> Is democracy a hyena fart?
Do ya mean is it stinkin' funny, or are ya talkin' about
laughing gas?
Intern (I hear there's already a Doctah)
| |||||
| 125.4 | POLAR::RICHARDSON | The Quintessential Gruntling | Thu Dec 01 1994 12:46 | 2 | |
Well, I was tempted to start a note with that title, but a little self
control goes a long way.
| |||||
| 125.5 | Bye Bye | PEKING::DP_SECURITY | Is It Morning Yet? | Thu Dec 01 1994 15:53 | 5 |
Not as far as I'm going. I'm going to leave you to fight among
yourselves coz I'm off to Motorola as of Monday. Might come back and
peek every so often though.
Daz
| |||||
| 125.6 | ODIXIE::CIAROCHI | One Less Dog | Thu Dec 01 1994 16:01 | 50 | |
heh heh heh... but seriously, folks!
In the US, a criminal who wishes ... uh, lemmee start over...
Here in the states, if an esteemed politician wishes to be re-elected,
he needs two things - lots of money, and even more money given to him
by his affiliated party. With these things, he may buy the necessary
votes to get elected, provided the electorate is sufficiently
disinterested in any issues. The democratic principle will work
only when the people are so enraged that no amount of money will buy
their vote.
By pissing off his affiliated party, the ... er, honorable politician
will also be pissing off their money. This money MAY be needed for
election, unless the constituency is apathetic enough to not care who
is elected, and the opponent was unable to hide his former criminal
record.
Under normal circumstances, there is a clearing house in Washington.
This past congress, Democratic Speaker Thomas Foley and Bob Dole as
majority leader in the Senate were responsible for directing votes.
For certain hot issues, the politicians will plead with their party
leaders to vote as their constituents desire. If there are sufficient
votes to carry and the politician has a favor to give, or is powerful
and in danger of pissing off his constituents to a critical degree, he
will be allowed to vote as necessary. In other cases, the politician
may be directed to vote a certain way in return for enormous sums of
money to placate the voters at home.
This sometimes does not work, the unlamented Dick Swett of New
Hampshire is an example of a politician laid to waste by his party,
where no amount of money could save his job. In his case he was
directed to vote with the opposing party to carry the vote, while the
majority of his own party opposed the proposition at hand. Later,
Swetts party could claim to have represented the people, even though
they arranged to have the measure passed behind the scenes.
In other cases, the politicians simply are instructed not to show up.
Many people here know that the controversial Brady bill passed the
Senate unanimously. Most are unaware that only three senators showed
up for the vote. That way almost everybodys senator can truthfully say
that they did not vote for the measure. They didn't vote against it,
either.
So, in short, this whole popular democratic vote thing works very well
for the politicians, in the long run. The people are not represented,
and as long as they keep giving away goodies, the masses will remain
apathetic enough not to mount serious opposition to the system.
Overall, it sucks pretty good...
| |||||
| 125.7 | ODIXIE::CIAROCHI | One Less Dog | Thu Dec 01 1994 16:02 | 1 | |
wow, big error there, Dole was minority leader, 'scuse, please... | |||||
| 125.8 | GAVEL::JANDROW | Green Eyed Lady... | Thu Dec 01 1994 17:25 | 13 | |
>>Is Democracy a Dying Art??
no, euthanasia is...
hohoho...i kill me...heh heh...
{ahem}
| |||||
| 125.9 | POWDML::LAUER | Little Chamber of Perdition | Thu Dec 01 1994 17:27 | 2 | |
Somebody oughta, that's fer sher 8^).
| |||||
| 125.10 | GAVEL::JANDROW | Green Eyed Lady... | Thu Dec 01 1994 17:29 | 6 | |
{{{pout}}}
| |||||