Conference back40::soapbox

Good question. I'd like to "get to the bottom of it" myself.

When GHWB used to mention it all the time, I thought it was just some
catchy phrase. Lately, judging from all the rest in the world who are
using the expression, and the talk that's gone on in here, I expect there's
a lot more to it, e.g. UN bolstering activities, etc.

Whatever it is, it seems to smell bad.

    No, what seems to smell bad is the New World Odor.  Try to keep up eh??
    

Youse been gone for months and yer tellin' _US_ to keep up?

:^)

    Good answer!  No, GREAT answer!!! :)
    

    
    NWO basically means that since the ROfW have grown up, matured,
    become rich they should now share their part of the blood and
    expense of keeping lawn order in thw world. when yugos engage
    in bloodbaths the refugeesflood into neighboring economies 
    ill-preparedd to recieve them and make intervention an economically
    viable alternative. basically it means we all contribute to keeping
    the world level of disorder down to a dull roar, since we are so
    interconnected through financial and trade links and are sure to
    feel pain in the stock or currency markets, or, petro prices
    get put up sendiing trade deficits into the stratosphere.
                                                        

    well someone really brainwashed aristide on this NWO crap before
    sending him back home. he mentions it in nearly all his discussions,
    speeches, and interviews.

    re: .6
    
    If it does, it means he likes the idea of the US exerting some vague
    but omnipotent hegemony over our poor benighted little brothers around
    the world. Not likely.
    
    .5 had it about right. But then the whole thing is so nebulous, who
    knows. After all, what did you expect from George on "the vision
    thing"?
    
    Kit 

    
    A Bush-ism.  Incomprehensible.  The actual situation might be
    called, "Old Local Chaos" with better accuraccy.
    
      bb

    
    
    The New World Order = U.S. Military picking up garbage on Haiti's
    streets...
    

    'new world order' is a bushism in terms of informed policy debate.
    
    but in terms of fundamentalist conspiracy wackoes it means something
    else entirely.  I saw something in ::christian the other day that
    suggested UN plans be resisted on grounds of NWO and their apparent
    resemblance to something from Revelations (Revelations being the
    end-of-the-world vision used by some christian sects.)  I thought GHWB
    was an Episcopalian, myself, but this anti-UN note spoke of NWO as
    though he were the gatekeeper of the Beast.
    
    which particular use of the term is under discussion here?  Serious
    policy-wonk version, or fundie wacko version?
    
    DougO

    	Revelation.  No S.

    so we're to take it that comments from you, offering authoritative
    comment on the sect's literature, are voting for the fundie wacko
    version.  thanks for being so clear.  me I'd rather discuss the policy
    wonk version.  1:1, anyone else voting?
    
    DougO

    	Boy, talk about a knee-jerk reply...

    I asked a question; you replied; I took your reply as an oblique
    answer, including the opportunity to yank your chain.  A little
    sensitive, aren't we?
    
    DougO

    re: Bible scoffers (8^) )
    
    Revelation says that at some future time all will have to get some sort
    of "mark" on their hand or forehead in order to "buy or sell".  In the
    past, SS cards were thought to be such a mark by the paranoid...though
    they overlooked the fact that it is a CARD, not a mark on the HAND or
    FOREHEAD.
    
    Today, we have bar code technology that would allow us to MARK
    individuals with a tattoo (invisible to the eye, but readable by a
    scanner).  We also have technology to implant a computer chip
    underneath the skin that can be tracked & scanned (for financial
    transactions, health info., etc.).   Either system would allow for a
    cashless society, and would be the ultimate way to keep track of all
    citizens (big brother style) and control the population.
    
    Could Revelation be right?  The technology is here already.  When the
    unspeakable finally happens and they ask everyone to get one of these
    implants (possibly after a finacial collapse or other type of
    emergency), please "just say no".  You'll be happy you did.
    
    I'll have to dig up my NWO info and post some tidbits later.  Scary
    stuff.
    
    
    -steve 

    please do dig it out and post it, Steve; some of the brethren here seem
    to have a little trouble with the idea that NWO means UN conspiracy to
    the fundie wacko crowd, and your notes might help convince 'em...
    
    DougO

    	.14

    	Sensitive?  Hardly.  My reply was not oblique at all.  It was
    	just to help you put the shoe on the other foot.  Wasn't it
    	just today that you were chiding someone for spelling mistakes?
    	"A dictionary is cheap..."  My reply was quite direct, or at least 
    	I figured someone with your wits and intelligence (and concern for
    	such accuracy in others) would have seen that...

    A certain unnamed Fortune 100 company has developed the technology to
    insert a chip-like device under the skin in the wrist of convicts in a
    pilot program in a certain state prison.  This tracks their movements 
    within the prison and grants/denies them accesses to various sectors.
    
    Soon, this technology could be used and available for other "official"
    purposes.
    

    They use these chips on dogs and cats already. My dog has one. Soon,
    INTERPOL will be tracking his movements, which is good 'cause they can
    pick them up.

    Glenn

  >  I'll have to dig up my NWO info and post some tidbits later.  Scary
  >  stuff.
    
    Get a grip, man. New World Order was just some marketing phrase Bush
    started mumbling because he had to sound presidential when he didn't
    have the Old World Order to nest in any more (OWO=simple division of
    world into commies and non-commies, choose up sides and pick on little
    countries at will)
    
    Kit

    re: .20
    
    I've got a grip on the situation, thank you.  However, if you are
    suggesting (and it certainly looks like it in your note) that NWO is a
    Bushism, you are sadly mistaken.  Bush *did* use this idea in many of
    his speeches, but the idea of NWO has been around since the founding of
    this great nation...and even before.
    
    Bush was also a member of the Tri-Lateral Commission and the Council on
    Foreign Relations...both globalist organization.  When he mentioned NWO
    in his speeches, he meant what he said...though probably not what most
    people thought he meant.  During his term in office, he
    gave the okay for foreign troops to train on our soil (UN troops), and
    was very big on the UN being expanded as a world's police force.
    
    Go do some research on the Federal Reserve Act and the Federal Reserve
    Board...see who controls our currency.  Also, see how many members on
    the FRB that have ties with the World Bank.  
    
    Many things sound crazy merely because we are trained to think in a
    given fashion (it's the "it can't happen here" syndrome). 
    
    
    -steve 

    Kit:
    
    I wouldn't go around broadbrushing too fast when you don't have all the
    information in front of you...
    
    The NWO is indeed a real aspect that certain unspecified individuals,
    terrorist groups, nations adhere to in respect to certain utopian
    happenings.
    
    I agree that Bush "stumbled" upon the name of the NWO, but it is two
    separate things.

    re: Kit
    
    Go see my topic (90) on Money as it sort of ties into the NWO scheme
    of things.  I'm not a bible thumper, and I try to avoid a hysterical
    conspiracy label.
    
    I truely believe MONEY is the one factor that will bring us into line,
    if you will, with the NWO.  As a matter of fact, your money says
    Novus Ordo Seclorum - New World Order.  This is why I'm trying to
    understand the monetary system and its history.  Not because I'm
    a conspiracy freak, but because I honestly believe someone is pulling
    a fast one on us.
    
    The "world bank" is the International Monetary Fund.  Its
    Governor is the Secretary of Treasury.  The UN's fiduciary agent
    is the Federal Reserve corporation, a private corporation.
    Coincidence?
    
    Our Founding Fathers explicitly stated that we should NEVER have
    a central banking system.  To much power in one spot.  They were
    familiar with the King, and how that system surpressed people.
    Our monetary system was stressed during the Civil War, and soon
    money stopped being backed by gold.  Money, or worth fluxuated
    from the new "mid-west" where farmers needed money begin planting
    crops and to banks on the east coast like Morgan Trust Guarantee.
    
    Speculation on potentially
    worthless IOUS and stuff led to the roaring 20's and ultimately to
    the collapse of our economy for some reason.  Coincidence or was
    it manufactured?  I'm beginning to believe it was a manufactured
    collapse.  
    
    Events were set up via politics and special interest.  Pressure
    for banking and monetary reform paved the way for Congress to enact
    several pieces of legislation which changed the course of US
    financial history - for the worse.  

Some interesting points to ponder/questions to ask, mostly pertaining to money:

1. A Federal Reserve Note (dollar bill) is not a dollar but an obligation
of the United States government, denominated in dollars? (12 USC 411)

2. The Congress declared in House Joint Resolution 192, passed in 1933,
and that they would not pay their obligations with lawful (Constitutional)
gold or silver coin, thus declaring bankruptcy?  (See: Executive Orders
6073, 6102, 6111 and 6260; 12 USC 95a)

3. The nation has been under a declared state of emergency since 1933?
What was the nature of this emergency, and after 70 years isn't it time
we end the emergency alluded to in Senate Report 93-549?

4. The Federal Reserve corporation is a private corporation?  (Federal
Reserve Act of 1913).

5. The Federal Government owns no stock in the Federal Reserve Corporation?

6. New Federal Reserve Notes come into existence only when the government
borrows from the Federal Reserve corporation?

7. The national debt, allegedly in excess of 3 Trillion dollars, and
an obligation of the United States government, was created by borrowing
said Federal Reserve notes into existence?

8. The Federal Reserve corporation has never been audited since 1913?

9. The Federal Reserve has not lent lawful consideration, i.e. Gold or
silver coin, in the sum of the alleged debt, to the Federal government,
but only extended credit, at interest.

10. The United States government surrendered its sovereignty, by becoming
a corporator, (22 USC 286(e)), and to the United Nations (22 USC 287),
and is it merely a coincidence that the UN's fiduciary agent is the Federal
Reserve corporation?  Is it also a coincidence that the Secretary of
Treasury is Governor of the International Monetary Fund?  
    
                                                    

    Ok, I'll expand my remarks:
    
    .21, .22, .23-4
    
    Get a grip, men.
    
    The beauty of weird conspiracy theories is that they are irrefutable.
    
                                                                         
    Kit
    

    In Note 78.21 by CSOA1::LEECH "annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum"
    writes.

    >Go do some research on the Federal Reserve Act and the Federal Reserve
    >Board...see who controls our currency.  Also, see how many members on
    >the FRB that have ties with the World Bank.  
    
    Well, we're all dying to know, Who? Just tease us with a few names.     
    
    Now just don't tell us the Queen of England and David Rockefeller. Try
    to be somewhat original.
                                                                       

    Actually, Kit and others, MadMike gave you a pile of references in US
    law.  Go to the library and look them up.  It would be easy to refute
    if he's making it all up.

    
    also lookup the minutes of P2 Lodge meetings and board meetings
    of Banco Ambrosiano, and faded copies of Coriere del Serra(Italian
    grammar errors all mine) from the 70s.
    
    did anyone else here that ol' Silvio is being charged with (through
    one of his companies) bribing the Financial Police?

    Actually, David Rockefeller is tied in with the world bank, and is
    heavily involved in the globalist organizations that I mentioned in a
    previous note.
    
    I don't have my sources handy (we just had an internal office move and
    I'm not done unpacking yet), so I won't throw out any other names that
    I can't confirm.
    
    -steve

    Steve...
    
    Throw 'em out anyway.  They ignore references.

    Steve, My father always told me that David Rockefeller ran the world.
    He may not be far off.
    
    ...Tom

    Well, I had a nice long note about the world bank and how the US
    economy will be engineered to collapse to usher in a one world cashless
    banking system, but this silly system booted me off (for the third
    time).
    
    What gives?  This is getting old.
    
    <growl>
    
    -steve

    yea, mine keeps stopping as I type. Must be the NWO in action. :-{)>
    
    ...Tom

    re: Note 78.32 by CSOA1::LEECH
    
    > Well, I had a nice long note about the world bank and how the US
    
    Quit being a hammerhead.  If you get screwey performance and you think
    yer gonna get dumped, press the DO key (or get Command:) down at the
    bottom of yer editor and say "WRITE TITS" or something like that.  That
    way you can retrieve what you wrote.
    
    BTW:  Other folks are Getty, Morgan, Bush, probably Vanderbuilt...
    Mostly people who screwed around with oil or people who had wealth
    from Europe for generations are players.  

    	Even more, if you don't manage to hit DO and save your work,
    	when you get dumped out of SOAPBOX (unless it is YOUR system
    	that crashes) you can immediately (without leaving NOTES) 
    	enter any other conference and do a REPLY/LAST.  That will
    	bring in your last notes edit session (your lost note) and
    	you can save it from there to an RMS file for safe keeping.
    	When you finally hook back into SOAP, you can use the text
    	file to "seed" your re-reply.

    Thanks for the techie advice.
    
    Too bad I'm not in a conspiracy mood today.  8^)

    re .27
    
    I am aware of most of the facts he cited. They are straight-forward
    non-secret facts. They don't point to or support a conspiracy. This is
    exactly my point. Conspiracists conjure up their theories and then toss
    out a bunch of information that is either irrelevant or simply not
    true, and then say "See I told you!".
    
    I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that the points he cites that I
    am not aware of are also true. I will also assume they are
    equally as irrelevant and as unrelated to his conspiracy.
    
    Kit

    Why is it that anyone who refutes government approved information
    or puts out little known or, as you say
    
    > straight-forward non-secret facts.
    
    They're branded as a conspiratist (sp?)  Do I think what's going on
    is a conspiracy?  How the heck do I know, I just don't like what I
    see.  Does that make me a conspiracy theory fanatic?
    
    I see this as something short of the truth, or, a lie.  Lies of
    omission.  If those criminals in DC were on the up and up, why do they
    need to cloak everything in secrecy?
    
    Another question I'd like answered:  Why in the world would someone
    spend $27Million dollars or so, or mortgage his home (i.e. TeddyK)
    to "represent the people".  Is being a public official, working for 
    their constituancy WORTH spending that sort of money?  What is the
    real reason for spending that type of money to get into Washington DC?  
    Oh my, another conspiracy I'm sure...
    

    Mike, don't you know that it has always been that way?  Those who bring
    forth evidence against the status-quo are labelled as conspiracy
    fanatics.  It has something to do with the troubling aspect of such
    information...some folks have to close their eyes and put their hands
    over their ears else their nice tidy world view be shaken.  A key
    ingredient to this head in the sand approach is labelling of those
    who bring troubling information as wackos.   After all, it is very easy
    to dismiss a wacko.
    
    
    -steve

   > Another question I'd like answered:  Why in the world would someone
   > spend $27Million dollars or so, or mortgage his home (i.e. TeddyK)
    
    Lots of reasons: vanity, power, the opportunity to influence according
    to one's political perspective, the opportunity to serve your country
    and its people, etc, etc.  Probably a combination of all these and some
    others. It doesn't seem very hard to figure out to me.
    
    As for the $27 million, he (Huffington) inherited $75 million and he
    probably understands that dropping a third of it for any of the reasons
    listed above won't seriously affect his standard of living. And as for
    Kennedy, because he needed the $2 million right then and there to come
    close to matching Romney, and since he lives on a trust fund he didn't
    have access to those bucks any other way. And he, too, did it for
    whatever combination of motives listed above that you care to ascribe
    to him.
    
    Kit

  >  information...some folks have to close their eyes and put their hands
  >  over their ears else their nice tidy world view be shaken.  A key
    
    Au contraire, my good man, it is you purveyors of the Trilateralist,
    Foreign Relations Council, Rockefeller, internationalist, Jewish banker
    (tho I notice you've dropped the adjectival part of the last for now)
    conspiracy who insist upon a "nice tidy world view".  Twas ever thus.
    It's just goofy until you get the power to do anything on that basis,
    then horror ensues.
    
    You still have no case when you simply announce a fact (like that a
    dollar is backed not by gold but by the say-so of the US, or that the
    federal reserve is technically a private entity) and then say that
    proves your conspiracy. It doesn't and only the feeble-minded would
    succumb to such an "argument".
    
    Kit

    
    Well, it IS bizarre.  Both Huff and DiFi in Cal, or Mitt and Splash
    in the prm, spend millions of their own inherited wealth because,
    Mad Mike, they have so much money AT BIRTH, that they have no greed
    instinct.  It is all ego/power/etc.  It is hard for you and I to get
    this because we have no experience with vast wealth.
    
      bb

re: Note 78.41 by CLUSTA::BINNS
    >You still have no case when you simply announce a fact (like that a
    >dollar is backed not by gold but by the say-so of the US, or that the
    >federal reserve is technically a private entity) and then say that
    >proves your conspiracy. It doesn't and only the feeble-minded would
    >succumb to such an "argument".
    
    ... or poor readers... Bzztt...Game over.
    
    
Department of the Treasury
Office of the General Council
Washington DC 20220

Feb 18, 1977

Dear Mr. XXXXXXXXXXXX

This is to respond to your letter of November 23, 1976 in which you
request a definition for the dollar as distinguished from a Federal
Reserve note.

Federal Reserve notes are not dollars. Those notes are denominated in dollars,
which are the unit of account of United States money.  The Coinage Act of
1792 established the dollar as the basic unit of United States currency,
by providing that "The money off account of the United States shall be
expressed in dollars or units, dimes or tenths, cents or hundredths..."
31 USC 371

The fact that Federal Reserve notes may not be converted into gold or
silver does not render them worthless.  Mr. Bernard of the Federal Reserve
Board is quite correct in stating that the value of the dollar is its
purchasing power.  Professor Samuelson, in his text "Economics", notes
that the dollar, as our medium of exchange, is wanted not for its own
sake, but for the things it will buy.

I trust this information responds to your inquiry.

Sincerely yours,

(signed) 
Russell L. Munk
Assistant General Council


*****************
There it is.  Federal Reserve notes are not dollars.  Period.  It states
they may not be converted into Gold or Silver.  Period.  It took an
act of Congress (literally) and I don't know which one yet, to allow someone
to use FRn's and NOT get arrested for passing worthless, unlawfull money.
The "dollar" is worth something because someone said it was - sort of 
legally.  If you look in the constitution, you will see that this is clearly
unconstitutional.  No State shall... make any Thing but gold and silver
Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts... Article 1, section 10.
                                   

    The facts are just to point out the possibility.  As you well know,
    proving a "conspiracy" theory is not an easy thing to do.  All I intend
    on doing is waking a few folks up to the POSSIBILITY that all is not
    well, and we (whether by design or continuous string of unrelated
    incidents/policy) are heading in a certain direction.
    
    If you deny the direction, then that's your business.  Since you don't
    know what the future holds, I suggest you stop trying to label those
    who disagree with you as ignorant or crazy.
    
    I can't prove any grand conspiracy scheme any more than you can prove
    there isn't one.  The difference between you and me seems to be that I
    research questionalbe things and you close your eyes and simply deny the 
    possibility that anything is amiss.  
    
    I'm not sure what you are talking about in regards to "It's just goofy
    until you get the power to do anything on that basis..", other than
    your attempt at labelling me as goofy, and perhaps dangerous if I ever
    came into "power" of some sort.  
    
    "Twas ever thus" that those who bury their heads in the sand are most 
    shocked as reality runs over them.
    
    
    -steve  

    re: .43
    
> There it is.  Federal Reserve notes are not dollars.  Period.  It states
    
    
    Hello?  We've been off the gold standard since around 1933. This is
    *not* some amazing revelation that you have managed to ferret out by
    dint of great effort and from a source that was trying to hide it.
    
    There's no "there" there.  You breathlessly recite mundane and
    commonly known facts as if they support some vast and nefarious plot
    without establishing the significance of those facts vis a vis your
    plot or the connection of those facts to your plot. 
    
    This tactic, I repeat, works on the feeble-minded who need to latch
    unto something to explain the hum-drum misery of lives they can't stand
    and can't control, but is not a substitute for a reasoned argument.
    
    Kit
    
    P.S. FWIW, your source seems to be saying that *his* definition of
    dollar is unchanged from its establishment in 1792.  Who cares, and why
    should they?
    
    

    Mad Mike, I agree with your points.  Federal Reserve Notes are not
    "dollars" per se.  (Have you ever seen a Silver Certificate?  They're
    supposed to be redeemable in silver, and today they're rare.)  The US
    is not on the gold standard; President Nixon took us off that in the
    sixties or early seventies.
    
    You do realize that before the Civil War the US operated on the basis
    of bank notes, printed by individual state banks?  They were quite
    beautiful examples of engraving and printing, but there was no way to
    tell if they were real or counterfeit, backed by deposits of worthless
    chits.  Federal Reserve notes ("greenbacks") were a big improvement.
    
    Also, I have to say that the idea of physically backing up paper
    currency is a primitive notion.  Even before the advent of electronic
    funds transfers, I would suggest that there wasn't enough silver and
    gold on the planet to back up the currency in circulation.  (One could
    do the math, but I think I'll pass 8^)  Today, literally hundreds of
    billions of dollars are exchanged worldwide on a daily basis; I'm
    *sure* there isn't enough gold and silver to back it up.  But I feel no
    more insecure than I do knowing you do not hear my voice or see my
    handwriting but only look at light in patterns.

re .46:

I believe Kit is correct (and you're wrong) regarding the date of the end of
the gold standard.  Silver certificates haven't been redeemable for silver
since the '60s or '70s.  When my family went to the World's Fair in NYC
in 1965, we went to the Federal Reserve Bank where we redeemed some silver
certificates.  We also saw somebody purchasing gold, presumably for dental
or jewelery purposes -- at that time it was illegal to own gold bullion
or coins for investment purposes.

    Gerald, I know Nixon did *something* regarding gold.  Maybe he
    legalized private ownership of it?

Could be.  It was illegal in 1965 and it's legal now, and he was prez in there
somewhere.

    re: Note 78.46 by TNPUBS::JONG
    
    I hear you.  Silver was demonetarized in 1972, which led to
    inflationary pressure for 9 years which wiped out hundreds of billions
    of dollars of individual wealth.  5 generations of wealth **poof**.
    Taxation took a slice too.
    
    Now we're in debt up to our arse.  Should I worry?  I don't know.  
    Personally I'm doing my best to get out of debt before having to get
    out of the system, if you know what I mean.

    re: Note 78.47 by NOTIME::SACKS
    
    > I believe Kit is correct (and you're wrong) regarding the date of the
    > end of the gold standard.
    
    I don't deny Kits fact of the end of the gold standard, nor did I say
    when it occured.  I merely said that it did occur, and that it is
    apparently unlawfull.
    
    The Gold Reserve Act of 1933 (only lawful within the Federal Zone: 
    Ding, here we go Steve) started with the decree that gold went from
    $20/ounce to $35 and it became illegal to own gold other than in
    jewelry or rare coins.  The entire stock of US gold and currency
    was withdrawn from circulation.  Where did it go?  In 1993 only
    $11 Billion in gold was located in Fort Knox.  Where's the rest?
    
    The gold reserves where transfered to the Federal Reserve in payment
    of part of US obligations.
    
    Silver certificates were converted from 1930 to 1963 and withdrawn.
    The silver certificates of the 1935D series contained a noticeable
    change in the redemption clause which was stated "legal tender for
    all debts public and private".   The phrase "Silver Dollar" was changed
    to read "Dollar in Silver", whatever a dollar in silver was worth that
    day, as opposed to the grains of silver as specified in the Coinage
    Act of 1792.
    
    I agree with Jong as well that early money looked pretty.  This is the
    reason why they want to change the look today, to "update" it and
    make it harder to counterfeit, is the official line.  Actually, it will 
    also be scannable.  From a truck out in the street.  If you ever get to a 
    cash basis,
    someone will know, to the nearest dollar, what's inside.  Oh dear, I'm
    getting paranoid again... (looking over shoulder). 
    If you ever get to pissing someone off, it's just another thing they
    can do to you to "bring you in line" and financially destroy you as
    well.

    <<< Note 78.51 by VMSNET::M_MACIOLEK "Four54 Camaro/Only way to fly" >>>

>    I agree with Jong as well that early money looked pretty.  This is the
>    reason why they want to change the look today, to "update" it and
>    make it harder to counterfeit, is the official line.  Actually, it will 
>    also be scannable.  From a truck out in the street.

Are you sure a 454 Camaro is the only way you fly?

    re: Note 78.52 by NOTIME::SACKS
    
    According to PBS and Loyld Bentson, this is a "minor" benefit of
    changing the money.  Adding the hologram and some strip inside the
    money, kinda like the one that's already there.  However this strip
    will be scannable, by maybe the IRS, DEA or ATF if they so choose.  If 
    you refuse to keep cash in the proper place, i.e. a bank, and pay 
    interest on your money they can come by and ask Gerald Sacks what
    your doing with $12,532 in cash in your house.  You must be a drug
    dealer.  And they'll take it.  These are civil charges and the
    burden is on YOU to prove you are entitled to the money (i.e. you
    can prove you earned every penny of it "properly", and paid tax on it.)
    
    I just read an article where an appeals court tossed out a Federal
    case where they stole $30,000 from a person who got caught with the
    cash.  
    
    Also, 3/4 of all paper money has coke residue on it.  Drug sniffing
    dogs typically go nuts at the smell of money.  and the 75% hit rate
    of finding coke on the money doesn't bode well for you to ever see it
    again, until this case happened.  Hopefully things are getting fixed.

What's the mechanism for scanning something that's in a safe in my house
from a truck in the street?

    It's a simple application of the technology used in cat detector vans.

    From the Ministry of Housinge?

It was spelt like that on the van...  never seen so
many bleedin' aerials.

    ... and Eric, being such a happy cat...
    
    -b

    You mean the loonie detector van....

Further into the rathole....

I have a 20-gallon aquarium at home.  Most all the fish *have*
been named Eric.  

Save for 2 Kuhli loaches, who are, of course, named Mel.

    Look, it's people like you whot cause unrest.

    > What's the mechanism for scanning something that's in a safe in my
    > house from a truck in the street?
    
    How the hell do I know, or even if they will do this at all.  The
    same device can be used to total stacks of cash at a bank.  Hmmm, a
    benefit.  Someone mentioned a fishtank.  Glass or lead would defeat
    whatever scanning device would be used.  Just don't ever get caught
    counting it while they're in the neigborhood.
    
    > This should be a good one....
    
    Good intentions pave the way to hell is all I'm saying.  What can be
    a good feature can be misused if we allow it. 

    Are all your conspirators named Eric?

      Correct me Mike if I am wrong...
    
      MadMike has occasionally stated that he's not a 'conspiracist'.
      I think he basically is getting real observant about certain 
      things and is open to the very general notion that as the govt.
      gets real big, it can get rather oppressive.
    
      Its not 'looney' to study out certain things and to observe
      where the govt. is circumventing the Constitution or is getting
      larger and in more position to more fully manage people's affairs.
    
      I think where Steve and I see conspiracy largely because of
      personal spiritual (biblical) beliefs, Mike is simply studying
      things and seeing possibilities.
    
      From my albeit slanted from the middle of the road perspective,
      the signs of the times are everywhere.  There's just a whole lot
      of weird stuff going on.

    re: Note 78.64 by STRATA::BARBIERI
    
    > Correct me Mike if I am wrong...
    That about pegs it.               

    Wayell, I'm in a hurry, but I gotta throw this in, because I know
    there's a lot of you waiting to jump on me for being a
    "conspirationist"...
    
    J.P Morgan once said in response to the statement that the country was
    probably run by fewer than 50 people, "Actually, I happen to know that
    the exact number is eight."
    
    heh, heh, heh... I've always liked that line...

    If you ever need to get rid of conspiration... try Metamucil. :-)
    
    -b

    Well, for the paranoid amoung us...the new "terrorist" laws would make
    me a terrorist by definition.
    
    The next big attack on our freedoms will be on the First, and it won't
    be pretty.  Most folks will just sit around and say that them
    conspiracy nuts shouldn't aughta talk about dem sorts of things
    anyway, so no big loss if we jail a few of 'em.  The tune will change
    when they are arrested for some sort of PC crime, but by then it will
    be too late.
    
    There are many inventive ways of circumventing all of our BoR, and most
    of them are already in place.
    
    
    -steve

    The State of Emergency FDR declared in 1933 suspends the BoR and
    the Constitution already.  Technically.  They won't admit to that
    thought and keep arguing about the constitutionality of the crap
    they invent.  I'd like to see MrC get some stones and end the
    state of emergency that's mentioned in Senate Report 93-549.
    
    It ain't gonna happen.

Note 78.68 by CSOA1::LEECH
    
    >The next big attack on our freedoms will be on the First, and it won't
    
    nope. i would like to see it but it won't happen. look at what the
    media did when a little thing like no camera's during OJ's trial was
    suggested. we've let them get way to powerful.

    
    "Seven Days In May" is making the rounds on cable in Georgia
    I see..

    ...the technology is available today that not only can scan stacks of
    money but to go to the sewer system and analyze what came from where...
    think that's called the pooper inspector
    

| <<< Note 78.66 by ODIXIE::CIAROCHI "One Less Dog" >>>




| J.P Morgan once said in response to the statement that the country was
| probably run by fewer than 50 people, "Actually, I happen to know that
| the exact number is eight."

	Did she say that on the Gong Show or somethin'...???

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or 
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or
abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the 
people peaceably to assemble, and to petition
the government for a redress of grievances. 

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, 
the right of the people to keep and bear
arms, shall not be infringed. 

Now read on...

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (David Feustel) writes:
Dr. Bill Lovell reported this morning on the Stan Majors Radio Talk
Show that Attorney General Reno has directed that the federal
government create a list of and start tracking people who might become
'militant Terrorists' in the event of a domestic disturbance. This list
includes all members of 'militia' organizations AND major conservative
talk radio personalities such as J Gordon Liddy, Rush Limbaugh and Stan
Majors, among others.

Rush is supposed to be near the top of the list.

People on this list are to be detained in 11 concentration camps
throughout the the U.S. in the event of any domestic events which would
threaten the 'integrity' of the U.S. government.

Purportedly, these 'militant terrorists' will be rounded up and
incarcerated in the concentration camps by the ~40,000 UN troops
presently on duty in the U.S.
-- 
Dave Feustel N9MYI	Internet:<[email protected]>  
219-483-1857		Compuserve:<73532,1747>

		Why NUKE 'em when you can NEWT them?

    re: -1
    
    Better watch it or you may be put on that "domestic terrorist" list
    created with the passing of the crime bill of 1994.
    
    -steve

    Shall

    We

    Snarf a real fun one??? :-)

      This is a real curveball I'm throwing.
    
      I've heard this from a couple different places.
    
      With the approval of GATT, expect to begin to see a push for
      for both a national (as in United States) and world mandatory
      day of rest.  That day being Sunday; the venerable day of the 
      sun (as Constantine called it when he instituted it).
    
      Expect to see a rather bizarre unity for this movement.  Political,
      economical, religious.  The pope will be around calling for it
      as well.  Of course the separation of church and state can go to
      hell!
    
      Given my personal beliefs, this is evidence of getting pretty 
      close to the nasty new world order.
    
      Anyway, I suppose this sounds strange, but I hope some of you 
      recall this when you begin to see a push for a mandatory day of 
      rest.  
    
                                                   Tony

    Nope... heard it first in church this morning!!!! :-)

Why would you expect _any_ middle eastern country to want Sunday?

It's currently either Friday or Saturday in all of them.

/john

      re: last two
    
      Nance, did you really??!!  Offline, ok?  Thanks!
    
      John,
    
      We'll see.  I anticipated "hogwash" for a response.  Thats ok.
    
                                             Tony

    Re: .79
    
    I have a friend who is a Seventh Day Adventist. He believes that the US
    will make Sunday a national day of worship. Then insist that all
    religions adopt Sunday as well. He says that it is one of the signs of
    the "end".
    
    ...Tom

    I wouldn't worry about it until you see the world's religions forging
    alliances and putting aside doctrinal differences for some generic
    "unity".   Then you know that something is up.
    
    Oh, never mind.  That's already started...some world religion
    conference I heard about through a couple different sources.  Actually,
    there have been at least two such conferences that I know of, which
    included over 130 representatives of various religions.
    
    Not proof, but evidence of a general direction.  Interesting, to say
    the least.
    
    -steve

    This just gets better and better; even Hydra never took one of his
    conspiracy theories this far.  Let me see if I got this straight; the
    NWO is bad and evil and signifies Armageddon and the arrival of the
    Beast of the Revelation of John (so say the fundies); and now we're to
    understand that behind it all are ... the organized religions, meeting
    in conclave 130 strong at a time... and the latest scheme (correct me
    if I get this wrong, Nancy) is to impose upon us all a universal day of
    rest.  The horror!  The horror!
    
    One could but wish the rest of one's opponents were so conceptually
    challenged.
    
    DougO

    29A

    Wellll... I can't say I go along with this Sunday thingamabobber... BUT
    Gatt is evidence of the NWO which goes along with Biblical prophecy for
    the arrival of the Anti-Christ.
    
    Nancy

    How about entering the specific Biblical prophecy that you think
    might be referencing NWO and GATT?

      re: .83
    
      Hi Tom,
    
        I'm an SDA as well.  Its kind of a curious thing actually.
        Sunday simply has not been given any important status by
        the Bible, just the "first day of the week" is all its 
        called.
    
        Anyway, we'll see.  One of my burdens is that I believe it
        will get progressively harder to 'rest' on God's seventh day
        Sabbath.
    
                                                    Tony

    The week is a human construct, which, unlike the day, the month or the
    year, is not grounded in external world.
    
    Imagine -- worldwide blue laws.

    Revelation 13:17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had
    the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
    
    Revelation 18:11  And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn
    over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
    
    I really don't have time to go into great exegesis, if you're
    interested in knowing more about Biblical prophecy write me offline and
    when I have time I'll compose a list of reading material for you.
    
    Nancy
    

      Bible prophecy stuff...
    
      To be fair, there are so many varying interpretations out there.
    
      But, there are a couple obvious things from Rev 13
    
      1) It is endtime
    
      2) Some sort of (forced) worship is involved
    
      3) There is also political involvement
    
      4) There is something (called the mark of the beast) that the
         worldwide group wants everyone to be a part of.
    
      5) If you're not part of the program, the capability is there
         to deny you the ability to buy or sell.
    
      6) Ultimately, if you are not part of the program, the worldwide
         group says its ok to take your life.
    
      
      So worldwide unity is one of those prerequisites that is easily
      tracked.  So is any religious influence, i.e. any potential church/
      state marriages.
    
      When you read points 1-6, the notion of the world becoming united
      does take on ominous consequences (provided one is a Bible believer).
    
      I purposely did not go into what the mark of the beast is, who the
      beast is, etc.  But, leaving things very generic, still, imo is a
      telling thing at least so far as the need for some worldwide unity
      of posture is concerned.
    
                                                       Tony

    >Revelation 13:17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had
    >the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
    
    Ah yes. Nothing like self-fulfilling prophecy. A few years back, IEEE
    (or was it ANSI) was trying to standardize bar code. On of the problems
    they were adressing was error detection. So, they decided that a known
    binary sequence would be inserted at the beginning, middle and end of
    the bar code. A guy from Hewlett Packard suggested, jokingly, that they
    use the numbers "666"... and it stuck.
    
    Now that bar code has become so popular that it appears on most retail
    items and in some cases even on drivers licenses and other
    certificates, this is being used by Jack Van Impe (and other end
    timers) to suggest that yes, the end is near, because of the last
    phrase of the referenced Biblical quote... only problem is, it
    would never have happened in the first place if the Bible hadn't
    suggested it...
    
    -b

    .95
    
    hmmmm let me ask would any other number sequence have worked???
    

    Whether self fulfilling or not, it is still happening.
    
    By the way, 666 doesn't show up in Revelation.  Six hundred and sixty
    six does.  Somebody once mentioned that the fact it is spelled out has
    significance over 666.
    
    -Jack

    RE. 96
    
    Any number sequence would have worked...
    
    -b

re: The coming of the AntiChrist

If I knew he was coming, I'd o' baked a cake.

Never mind.

               <<< Note 78.94 by STRATA::BARBIERI "God cares." >>>



    
      4) There is something (called the mark of the beast) that the
         worldwide group wants everyone to be a part of.
    
		They call it the Republican Party, don't they??? :-)

      5) If you're not part of the program, the capability is there
         to deny you the ability to buy or sell.

		Yup... definitely the Republican Party......
    
      6) Ultimately, if you are not part of the program, the worldwide
         group says its ok to take your life.

		Oh.... did Eye of Newt propose this one YET????    
      


Glen

    Taking things a step further on one front of Biblical prophesy and how
    this generation is the first who can feasably forfill it...
    
    Mark of the Beast and a cashless monetary system.
    
    By reading Revelation, you inevitably come to the part that "no one may
    buy or sell unless he receives the Mark of the Beast on his hand or
    forhead" (NIV quote from memory...sorry, don't have a Bible with me
    today).
    
    How could anyone be denied the ability to "buy and sell"?  First of
    all, you have to make current money worthless.  Next, old standards
    (gold, silver) must be either made worthless as money or made illegal
    to own.  Next, you have to make a form of currency that cannot be
    stolen, that is used in all transactions (buying and selling)- one that 
    you can somehow keep track of and control absolutely.
    
    The only answer to this lies in a totally electronic funds system. 
    With all exchanges made via electronic means using some form of
    "credit", we solve the problem of "cash" that can be stolen from
    wallets, banks, stores, etc. (since such a system is "cashless",
    using electronic credits of some sort).  
    
    If you haven't noticed, you don't need cash today for most any kind of
    shopping.  You can use credit cards or even bank cards (debit cards...I
    have one in my wallet now; it enables me to debit my account for the
    exact amount spent in grocerty stores and even in places that take VISA
    and MASTERCARD).  We are in a society that is quickly moving towards a
    cashless monetary system.  The technology is there, as is the
    electronic network that can tie it all together.  And it IS convenient. 
    
    Besides the convenience, there are other reasons to go to a cashless
    monetary system, one of which is counterfeit money.  Counterfeit money
    costs the US hundreds of millions of dollars a year.  An infotainment
    show I watched not too long ago stated that there are certain Islamic
    fundamentalists who are out to bankrupt the US by counterfeit money
    (the estimate of fake US dollars overseas is in the hundreds of
    millions, so say the infotainment people, maybe billions).  This is
    proabably the rationale we have for those little fiber-optic strips
    that are currently in $10's, $20's, $50's, and $100 bills (and probably
    the larger bills, too).  The old bills are not long for circulation,
    IMO.
    
    
    Soon, everything will be handled by electronic fund transfers (EFT)
    (most of us already have direct deposit, which is only the beginning),
    and we will see more and more "smart" cards that will enable us to do
    much more that the old ATM cards let us do (like my bank debit
    card...though it isn't a real "smart" card).  We have the technology to
    reduce all transactions down to simplicity itself...swiping that little
    magnetic card through the readers in every store (or whatever).  
    
    As the cards do more and more, theft may become a problem (that and
    lost cards).  Since there will be little you can do without it in the
    future, loss or theft of a smart card would be more than a little
    inconvenient.  Perhaps this will be what leads to computer chip
    implants...you can get your medical history, bank info, driver's
    license, passport, etc. all stored in your own personal, unstealable
    chip.  The reasons for such a thing are many:
    
    *if you (or your kids) are kidnapped, such chips in the future could be 
    traced from sattelites
    
    *no lost or stolen cards
    
    *if you are in an accident, the hospital can bring up your medical
    history quickly
    
    *makes transactions very simple
    
    Many more.
    
    
    
    Of course, there is a down side to this whole scenario...you have to
    have the implant, else you will be unable to buy or sell...eventually.
    Eventually, if the Bible is correct, it will be illegal not to have an
    implant...your choice will be get one or die (the rationalizations will
    be many, but however it is rationalized, it will happen if the Bible is
    right, maybe not how I say, but the mark of the Beast will happen and
    those refusing will be killed...though that is preferable to taking the
    mark, you need to read farther through Revelation to see what happens
    to those who take the mark). 
    
    Of course, we find it hard to imagine something like this ever
    happening, but then again, some people look back at Nazi Germany and
    wonder how things ever got the way they did there. 
    
    One thing is sure, if things go electronic totally, you WILL NOT be
    able to buy or sell unless you are in "the system".
    
    
    -steve

    >feasably forfill it...
    
    interesting... :^)

    Aw..gimme a brake.  I tipoed agin.  And if u luk, u may c a fu misspelt
    wurds, too.  8^)

    tipoed.
    
    trudy two lips...
    
    	... what's the rest of that?
    
    FWIW, the bible inspired the 666.  It only claims to be a prophecy. 
    Self-fulfillment does not disqualify, in fact, makes things even
    spookier [visions of a time-traveler named, simply, "John" going back
    in time to warn us of impending doom...]

    Time to stir the coals a bit more...
    
    
    Since no one argues the fact that the federal reserve bank and the
    federal reserve board is not a part of the government, why has no one
    made the most obvious connection that the whole deal is
    unconstitutional?
    
    See Article 1, sections 8 & 10 of the Constitution.
    
    The silver and gold standard question also arises in section 10.
    
    
    Why does a non-government agency coin money and declare value of it?
    
    
    -steve

    Because there is a conspiracy to maintain.

    Glenn

    
    	It's the borrowing, stupid.
    
    	;^D

      So has anyone seen Linda Thompson's video called 'Nation Under
      Siege'???
    
      I saw it and it is very chilling.  They had a few shots of detain-
      ment centers in the middle of nowhere.  Good clips of those black
      copters and a couple of their escapades.  A little bit on Randy
      Weaver and the Davidian assault.  Stuff on foreigners acting as
      law enforcement in our country.
    
      It was all pretty intense, imo.
    
      Anyone else see it?

    Not sure whether this belongs in the TTLT note, but it's better here. 
    
    The nicest family just moved in next door.  They're highly cosmopolitan
    & professional, originally from Iraq but lived & worked in Kuwait for
    20 years before being driven out in '90.  Charmingly, they refer to
    their ethnicity as "Mesopotamian" -- reminiscent of how Iranians adopt
    the gentle subterfuge of calling themselves Persian.
    
    Anyhow, one of the most fascinating things about 'em is that their
    long-lost Egyptian second cousin is none other than Boutros Boutros
    Ghali himself.  Sometime after we've hoisted a few more beers, I'll
    find out why why his his name name is is ... but you get the idea. 
    I'll report back to this August Forum when I have the intel.
    
    Also, I just thought you'd like to know who has been secretly seconded
    as the NWO's new Minister of Cybernetic Information, aka the
    
                       "HeadFellah for InfoFarFellation."  
    
    Best to submit to me !Now!, your applications for InfoGrunt status.
    
    |-{:-), M.C.I., NWO                                         
                                

    Dr.Dan....
    
    You've missed the deadline for August's "Penthouse Forum."
    We anxiously await your submittal for the September issue, 
    howevah.
    
    Remember to begin with, "You probably won't believe me, but
    this is absolutely true...."  And don't forget that someone
    will of course need to have been dressed as a French maid.
    
    hth, ;^) ;^)  etc.
    

    
    I should think a conspiracy_cow would have a crazed look, such as:
    
                          (__)
                          (@@)
                   /-------\/ 
                  / |     ||  
                 *  ||W---||  
                    ~~    ~~  

    

    You are right.  I could say that this is why I deleted conspiracy_cow,
    but that would be a lie.  In reality, I felt it pegged low on the wit
    meter.  8^)

    
    	Even so, it would still increase the average 'BOX wit a couple
    	points.
    
    	8^)
    

    
    Conspiracy cow with alarmed look:
    
                              (___)
                              (@ @)
                       /-------\o/
                      / |     ||v
                     *  ||W---||
                        ~~    ~~  

    Looks more like a spaced out Kerouac Kow.

    It looks like a cow with Ren's head.

<---grin...

    
    
    re .115
    
    
    that's udderly ridiculous!!
    
    Chris
    :)

    While on LTD I had the opportunity to do a *lot* of reading and one of
    the areas I found quite intriguing was the NWO/Illuminati/Conspiracy
    thing. In digging deeper, I was quite amazed at what I found (eg.,
    Project MKULTRA, Project Artichoke, Project Bluebird, and other covert
    projects funded by our illustrious government that are too numerous to
    name. These were all operations acted upon unsuspecting U.S. citizens
    by the U.S. Government).
    
    What I've written here though pertains to the Illuminati/NWO and is
    sketchy at best.
    
    Illuminati has, of late, been refered to as the New World Order. Some
    claim that the Illuminati is a branch of the higher degree (32nd or
    better) Free Masons and then go on to point to several government
    officials (both past and present) who are brethren. The (supposed) true
    origin, however, of the Illuminati dates back to the mid to late 1300's
    and refers to a group of people who deemed themselves, "The Illuminated
    Ones", who believed they could build a newer and better world.
    
    Actually the current (Illuminati) reference to the NWO (I think) became
    popular with the publishing of Robert Anton Wilson's book "The Illuminatus
    Trilogy" (Fiction), which lumps most of the conspiracy theories under the
    umbrella of "The Illuminati". The conspiracy theories are many (eg., the
    Mafia, CIA, and JFK to name one). Wilson also has a couple of books called
    "The Illuminati Papers", part I & II (non-fiction), I believe. He touts
    that these show the *real* correlations between the various conspiracy
    theories and current (at least in his time) events, and claims that
    this proves these theories.
    
    The Illuminati thing has become so popular that there are several pages
    on the WWW about it, as well as a role playing card game named, you
    guessed it, "Illuminati", which, BTW is published by the Jackson Game
    company (the one that the Secret Service raided years ago). Do I smell
    conspiracy here... just kidding (';
    
    As far as the NWO thing, the term has been around for ages. A lot of
    christian religions point to it as an example of the coming of the
    Apocalypse. This has been especially true at the changing of a
    millenium (<- is that the right word?), and guess what folks, were
    approaching the year 2000. Also it's been rumored that the notable
    increase in militias is due to the perceived need to fight the NWO.
    
    Whether it's a "sign of the times" or not, some believe that it means
    a World Bank, World Police, World Religion, and let's not forget, a
    World Government. Some would go so far as to say that the world bank
    and the world religion is already in place and that all that is needed
    to complete the equation is the world government (with their very own
    police force, of course). Others believe that the federal funding of
    police support to the states is just another step closer to the NWO.
    
    What do I believe? The Illuminati/NWO/Conspiracy thing is interesting
    reading, however, I don't really buy the 'One big conspiracy thing'.
    However, I do believe that our Government is so power-hungry and
    in-your-face, and that they'd jump at the chance to control a world
    bank (or world anything). Although this does not spell conspiracy
    to me, it (the government) surely seems to be pointing in the direction
    of a New World Order.

    Wow!

        re.120::
    
    
        Your note was very interesting, Mr. Devereaux. Do you know the
    titles of any books about this "NWO" theory?

    re -.1  The following page contains a list of Titles which may/may not
            interest you. Hope this helps.
    
    As far as my comment regarding the militias and the NWO... Well lets
    just say that there have been several conferences touring the country
    during the last couple of years and I attended a couple.
    
    All in all, the reading, nor the conferences make me an expert on this
    subject. I am merely reporting my observations (from my point of view,
    of course). This subject interests me.
    
    BTW, I forgot to mention one tidbit of info on the Illuminati. I think
    it was founded by Adam Weishaupt (sp?), either that or he was the one
    who founded the Bavarian Illuminati, I don't remember which. If anyone
    has an interest in this I can dig up the article and post it here.
    
    Books on the New World Order (NWO)
    
    Prince of Darkness: the Antichrist and the NWO
    Author: Grant R Jeffrey   Pub: 1995
    
    The Evolving Global Economy: Making Sense of the NWO
    Pref: Kenechi Ohmae       Pub: 1995
    
    Global Dreams: Imperial Corporations and the NWO
    Author: Richard J Barnet  Pub: 1994
    
    We're #1: Where America stands -- and falls -- in the NWO
    Author: Andrew Shapiro    Pub: 1992
    
    Rethinking America's Security: Beyond Cold War to NWO
    Editors: Graham Allison   Pub: 1992
             Gregory F Treverton
    
    The Illustrated Almanac of Historical Facts: From the Dawn of the Christian
    Author: Robert Steward    Pub: 1992          Era to the NWO
    
    The NWO
    Author: Pat Robertson     Pub: 1991
    
    The New Superpowers: Germany, Japan, the U.S., and the NWO
    Author: Jeffrey T Bergner Pub: 1991
    
    When the World Will be as One: the Coming of the NWO
    Author: Tal Brooke        Pub: 1989

    
    See -
    
    http://www.csicop.org/si/
    
    -or-
    
    The Demon-Haunted World. Science as a Cradle in the Dark. By Carl Sagan
    Random House, $25. Also in audio from Nova Audio Books, 2 cassettes,
    $16.95. ISBN 0-394-53512-X
    
    -or-
    
    Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds.
    Charles Mackay. George Routledge and Sons, London, 1852. (Barnes &
    Noble)
    
    

    re: .120
    
    This topic interests me, too.  FWIW, I personally find nothing
    titilating about the millenial change coming up- at least within the
    NWO theories or Revelation.  I find it disheartening that so many
    people get millenical fever- especially when many try to link a date
    with the apocolypse (and it adds to my dismay that many doing this are
    Christians- they should know better).
    
    That said, there is more to this subject than meets the eye.  It could
    be that things like the unconsitutional Federal Reserve Act was simply
    a power grab by bankers, but to what end?  Greed?  Possibly.  Control
    of the economy?  Definitely, but to what end?   We are left with two
    choices: greed or power (or both).  The FRA is certainly not the only
    unconstitutional act/program (far from it) in existence, but it is a
    biggie.
    
    It could be that the slow federalization of everything is just a
    natural progression for a country that has forsaken its ideals for
    permissiveness, and has traded its freedom for percieved security.  It
    could be, but on the other hand, maybe there could be some general
    plan.  I'm not saying that there is, but there have been definite
    societal engineering efforts from DC, and DC is ruled by those who have
    all the money.  Those who have all the money are those tied to
    globalist organizations and the world bank.   It's not difficult to see
    why or how these conspiracy theories come into existence.   
    
    From my view, I do not think that it will be man's plans that bring us
    into the NWO, predicted in Revelation nearly 2000 years ago.  
    I think that whatever plans are made- assuming that there
    are any specific plans to integrate the world under one government-
    will set up the outline, readying everything for the long-ago predicted
    conclusion.  It will take something much bigger and more obvious,
    however, to get people to agree to such a system...it will take an
    emergency of epic proportions- one that man himself cannot engineer.
    
    The fact is, as ignorant as most Americans are about the Constitution,
    they will still not willingly give up their national sovereignity. 
    Something will have to happen here in the US to change many millions of
    minds into accepting this sacrifice of sovereignity.  
    
    We are not alone, either. There are  other nations that would not 
    willingly give up their sovereignity, which will also have to be 
    convinced some way.  
    
    The stage is being set for something, that much seems clear.  Whether
    it be by specific design or not is questionable.  I think that
    there are *some* plans that have consciously been made and implemented,
    but they are not enough to do more than steer things in the right
    direction.  There is no question that we *are* indeed heading in a
    dangerous direction, IMO, but I cannot claim that this is due
    specifically to secret organizations and behind the scenes plotting.
    
    But, whether we are being consciously steered in this direction is less
    relevant to the direction itself, currently.  We do live in interesting
    times... 
    
    
    -steve 

    Who cares?

    Everybody will continue to support the status quo as always.

    Figures a Canadian would catch that.
    
    ;')

      I chanced upon this and I know I am a bit tardy!  ;-)
    
      Here's something I find a bit compelling about the coming
      millenium.
    
      I have heard many times that if you try to estimate the history 
      of the earth *biblically*, we are also close to 6000 years.  How
      is this done?  You can start with Adam's age until he had Seth,
      Seth's age until he had his son, etc.  You get to a certain event
      whose time of occurance we have a rough idea of.  Anyway, its close 
      to 6000 years (but no one knows exactly).
    
      Hebrews 4:4-5
      For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this
      way: "And God rested from the seventh day from all His works";
      And again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."
    
      So the New Testament book of Hebrews says that God referred to
      the 7th day in two ways.
    
      1) He rested on the 7th day from all His works.
    
      2) When He said, "They shall not enter My rest."
    
      This second one seems kind of perplexing.  The context is of an
      exhortation of a corporate body to totally rest in Him.  It refers
      to Israel during the exodus when they were stiff-necked people and
      God said, "They shall not enter My rest."
    
      But, again, how was He referring to the 7th day?
    
      I can offer only one explanation.  God was not arbitrary in His
      selection of a six day creation period punctuated with a 7th day
      Sabbath (day of rest).  
    
      I believe God used creation week as an OBJECT LESSON of a work He 
      longs to perform in His people.  We can hasten or delay His work
      in us and God knows by foreknowledge that no group will fully rest
      in Him until roughly 6000 years,  Indeed, scripture prophetically
      points to a sabbath millenium of rest following the end.
    
      The way that God referred to the 7th day when He said, "They shall
      not enter My rest" is that He echoes the prophecy that is creation
      week.  As this prophecy foretells the time when His people will 
      enter His rest, it also forecasts that the rest would not be entered
      previous to that time.  Hence, He can refer to that prophecy (i.e.
      the seventh day) and say of Israel those many years ago, "They shall 
      not enter My rest."
    
      I'm not into any exact datesetting, but I do believe the Word tells
      us that the time of the end is close, even at the door.
    
      6000 years are about up and the word subscribes some significance to
      that.
    
    						Tony

    what will you do if we're all still sittin' around in say 10 years?
    Will you still bother with biblical calculations and apocalyptic
    baffle gab?

Hey, there's always the year 3000 to look forward to.

      Hi Glenn,
    
        Oh man, I'm not concerned over ten years.
    
        But, anyway, the whole thing makes sense to me.  My under-
        standing of last things makes complete sense from a redemptive
        perspective and makes no sense from any other.
    
    						Tony

Numerology lives.
I stumbled across some strange web site a month or so ago. Some guy who's
preoccupied with the number 22. Seems he thinks it's an amazing thing that he
sees the number 22 everywhere. I counted 7 occurences of it on my drive home
that night. Big deal.

    wow! I just sawer two occurences of it now!

      I'm actually not into numerology myself.  To me, numerology
      is the 'pseudoscience' that says numbers inherently have some
      special meaning attached to them on the basis of nothing but
      the number itself.
    
      I am a believer that intelligent beings, including God, can 
      assign numbers with meaning.
    
      Quite a difference!
    
    						Tony

    I've heard from some that the year 2000 is the beginning of the 7000th
    year of mortal existence, or the opening of the 7th seal.
    
    Could happen!

    .136
    
    The 7000th year of mortal existence?  Mortals sprang into existence in
    -4999?  How very convenient for the numeralogists.  And how very
    INconvenient it must be for dating all those human fossils that are
    older than 7000 years.

    >And how very INconvenient it must be for dating all those human fossils 
    >that are older than 7000 years.
    
    Come on Dick, you know there can't possibly be any human fossils that
    old. It's just a conspiracy by science to discredit the bible, doncha
    know?  :)

re .136:

I'm willing to bet they claim "the seventh millennium" of human existence, not
the 7000th year, as this is close to Bishop Mumbledyfratz's calculation that
God created the world Oct 29th, 4004 BC (or whatever the actual date was).  If
so, they'll be late, since the seventh millennium of human existence is less
than 6 months away, if you believe the bishop. 

    Is there a difference between the start of the seventh millennium and
    the start of the 7000th year?

999 years.

Years -3999 thru -3000 = 1st millennium = 1st thousand years
Years -2999 thru -2000 = 2nd millennium = 2nd thousand years
Years -1999 thru -1000 = 3rd millennium = 3rd thousand years
Years -999 thru 0 = 4th millennium = 4th thousand years
Years 1 thru 1000 = 5th millennium = 5th thousand years
Years 1001 thru 2000 = 6th millennium = 6th thousand years

Therefore isn't the year 2001 the beginning of the 7th millennium and the
beginning of the 7th thousand years?

In the year 2525.....

    If man were still alive....

    
    Zager + Evans!
    

re .142:

The starting point (assuming you believe the bishop) is 4004 BC, not -3999.
Thus the 7th millennium of man's existence would start on Oct 29, 1997.
(note: not 1996, there was no year 0)

Unless you are talking about the millennium that starts in the year 2001.
This is the third millennium, not the seventh, since this numbering
starts with the year 1 (not -3999).

    In his book _The Annals of the World, published in 1658, James Ussher
    (1581-1656), Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland, dated the
    Creation to Sunday, October 23, -4004.
    
    Also in the 17th century CE, Dr. John Lightfoot, Vice-Chancellor of the
    University of Cambridge, refined the actual moment of Creation to 9
    a.m.

Oops. I was off by 6 days.

    I understand all that. My confusion came from 78.141.

If the first millennium was the thousand years leading up to 1000, 
then the seventh millennium would be the thousand years leading 
up to 7000 ... IE, it would start in 6001.

7000 - 6001 = 999

    My fault. I wasn't clear. I tried to write it correctly in .142, but
    failed miserably. I was speaking of the beginning of the 7th
    thousand of years, not the beginning of the 7000th year. 
    
    So, now on with the discussion. I was told in a discussion by a friend
    that sometime during the beginning of the 7th millennium, which he
    estimated to be sometime within the next 25 years, the 7th seal, spoken
    of in Revelation would be open. This will be followed closely by the
    return of Christ and the 1st resurrection. I think this correlates to
    the dates we have been discussing.

    what happens when a pregnant women gets raptured?

re .151:

Tell your friend the Bible says no one knows the time of the second coming.
Anyone who claims to know when it will be is a liar.
I believe Christ even said He did not know when it would be.
(sorry I can't quote chapter and verse)

    Re: .152
    
    Double Delight?
    
    Re: .153
    
    He never claimed to know the exact time.

    I would think the Arch Angel of Obstetrics would have to do something.

    A question for the Abortion topic would be, can a fetus experience
    rapture?

    No one knows the hour or the day, but we are to keep watch and know the
    season of His coming (speaking of the rapture, the actual second coming
    will be hard to miss, according to Revelation).
    
    Date-setters beware.  Don't believe anyone who thinks they have the
    date pegged... they don't have enough information to determine a date,
    probably because no absolute date is actually set (though God the
    Father can see exactly what point in time that things will be in
    readiness).  
    
    However, it should not come as a theif in the night to believers who
    remain on the lookout.    
    
    How we interpret "season", well, that varies greatly depending upon who
    you talk to.  Sure, many things seem to be coming together according to
    the revelation Jesus gave regarding the end times, but are we at, or
    close to, the right point?  No one knows.  We only know that the diretion 
    we are heading in will bring us there faster and faster, unless things 
    change drastically (and I believe we can change them, but will not do so).
    
    
    
    -steve               

    The date _is_ set, only the Father knows. He knows, therefore there is
    a date.

    
    that's a lot of talk about dates.
    

    I'd like to have one instead of talking about them.

    
    Father Knows Best.
    

    
    How do you actually know if it IS a date, anyway?
                                     

  I don't give a fig.

  bb

    
    a date is different from a fig.  that's all i know.
    

    no one knows, not even the son of man, but the Father.

  well, that's raisin another issue

  bb

re .162:

Well you need some practice.

I say "Dinner and a movie?"

You say "Yes".

I say "Pick you up at 6?"

You say "Yes".

Then you know it is a date.

Unless her answer is anything like "No".

    I have $100,000,000. I will need you to be my slave. If you never
    question me and do what I say, I promise that I will one day give you
    the $100,000,000. I know exactly when I will give it to you. I'm not
    telling anyone when that is. But, it will be yours one day I promise.
    
    Any takers?

    Where do I sign?

    What if you hate money, which I obviously do, but you really like
    peaches?

   This is reminding me of Ray Walston.
   Ralston - close.

So move out to the country, and eat alot of peaches.

Peaches come in a can ... they were put there by a man.

    I won't put my faith in man to provide me the peaches I need.

    .174 In a factory downtown?

Yes.

Apparently you're familiar with the peach business.

    I squeezed a rotten peach in my fist and dreamed about you, womaaaan.

Hey, this all sounds very familiar!!  

>    The date _is_ set, only the Father knows. He knows, therefore there is
>    a date.
    
    There will be a date, but is is really set?  Does the fact that the
    Father knows when make it a set date?  I think this can fit in with the
    predestination argument (along with the "can God create a rock too big
    for even Him to move?" arguments).  We are too limited to linear time
    to really comprehend these things fully.
    
    It's all in how you look at things, I suppose.  

    The argument for omniscience says, without qualification, "The Father
    knows everything."  By definition, "everything" includes "the date that
    will be showing on calendars when I send Jesus again."  If the Father
    is truly omniscient, then it's a set date.

    Steve, you can't apply some sort of Star Trek factor to this. If you're
    saying god doesn't have a date set, then he doesn't know everything,
    now does he? If you believe he knows when the sparrow falls and how
    many hairs on on your head, (trivial really), then surely he should know
    when he's coming back.

  You have to be very careful with these definitions.  For example,
 can an omnipotent being create something he himself cannot destroy ?
 
  You can construct similar conundrums - can an omniscient being see
 things which aren't there ?

  bb

 Heard a preacher one time talking about the return of Christ, and he
 told a story of visiting a castle in Europe.  As he was walking the grounds
 he came across the gardener who kept the grounds in beautiful condition.  The
 man commented "the owner must be very pleased with your work".  The gardener
 replied "Oh, the owner hasn't been here in many years".  "Well, you keep
 the place looking like you expect him tomorrow", commented the visitor.
 "Oh, no" said the gardener.  "I keep it as if he's coming today!"..

 Such is the expected return of Christ..we should be ready for his return
 today.

    Won't some of us be embarrassed if he returns and we're watching Melrose
    Place, eh?

    "Well Lord, I was expecting you and all, but I needed to do something
    mindless because all I do is think all day and write puns in soapbox
    and so, well, I was flicking by the channels and... and..."

    I'm beginning to tire of all these MP slams, people.  
    
    8)

I'm sure people have some more slams to spare.....

>    Won't some of us be embarrassed if he returns and we're watching Melrose
>    Place, eh?

>    "Well Lord, I was expecting you and all, but I needed to do something
>    mindless because all I do is think all day and write puns in soapbox
>    and so, well, I was flicking by the channels and... and..."


 no kidding.

    .181 & .182
    
    I'm saying nothing concrete, nor am I arguing that a date is NOT set. 
    I'm merely saying it may not be date-setting as we see it.  It could be
    a variable based upon our own actions (speaking globally), yet even so,
    God knows the exact date.
    
    Don't get caught up in the traps of human logic.  Logic is a good
    thing, but it isn't perfect. 
    
    
    -steve

    |yet even so, God knows the exact date.
    
    
    Seems you've been caught in your own trap of logic.

    Never mind.  Apparently I'm not getting my point across very well.
    
    The whole idea is that you cannot define everything via logic.  Our way
    of defining logic and events is too linear, and too limited in the big
    scheme of things.  Not everything is as cut and dried as you would 
    logically presume it to be.  [and no, I'm not knocking logic at all,
    just trying to point out that it does have limitations]

    sequay into...
    
    We blew up the T.V., threw away the paper
    Moved to the country, built a home.
    Had a lot of children, fed them on peaches,
    They all found Jesus, on their own.
    
    			Spanish Pipedream
    			John Prine

    Steve, honestly I'm trying to understand your non-linear approach to
    this. You're saying the date is set, that is to say God knows exactly
    when it is going to happen, but it's not cast in stone, which means
    what? 
    
    Here's a good question for you, if god can be so non-linear, why can't we
    pray for people/situations in the past?

    re .193. The nearest that I've ever come to figuring it out, (and I'm
    probably wrong), is that it's a mystery and we poor humans cannot
    possibly hope to understand God's Way of doing things. Kinda like how
    stars can be older than the universe. (Ooops wasn't that answered
    today? :-) ) 
    
    Basically, whatever day it happens is the day that God picked. No
    matter what day that may be. Those of us who are saved. I ain't one.
    Will know how it's done after we get to join God. We can't possibly
    understand it as humans. Circular reasoning.
    
    Bright Blessings,
    
    PJ

    .194
    
    A *possible* explanation of the stars/universe thing was posted in
    444.456.

    Yeah, I saw it and referred to it in my NOTE, but not by number.
    
    Bright Blessings,
    
    PJ

    Does he fly?

>    Does he fly?

Yes, so no spreading stuff on the floor to look for his footprints.

    I haven't seen one of these in a looooooong time!  :)
    

>    I haven't seen one of these in a looooooong time!  :)

Neither have I.

    what? a dragon?

    Maybe SOAPBOX has become classsssssyyyyyy!
    
    Naaaa!  :)

>    I haven't seen one of these in a looooooong time!  :)
    
    You say that like it's a bad thing.

>    what? a dragon?

How could I? He's invisible.

i wonder if the end would ever come if we didn't have that stupid book to 
outline our destiny?

    what book? I Want To Tell You?

    
    If you want to tell us, why are you asking him?
    

For the dragon impaired...

There's a nice little chapter in Carl Sagan's book, _The Demon Haunted
World_. It's called, The Dragon In My Garage.

Briefly:

A: I have a dragon in my garage.
B: Let's see!
A: Can't. He's invisible.
B: Ok, let's spread sawdust, and capture his footprints.
A: Can't. He flies.
B: Ok, let's spray paint him.
A: Can't. He's insubstantial. No physical body.
B: Ok, let's take an infrared photo and capture his fiery breath.
A: Can't. Heatless flames.

Basically, for any test you can dream up, there's a reason why it won't work.
But the dragon does actually exist, according to A. It's just that there's
nothing you can do to prove it, you see...

Carl believed that we're at a sort of turning point. We can embrace
superstition and mysticism, and enter a new dark age, or we can learn the
methods of science, probe reality, and move on.

The old Nietzsche joke now applies to Carl Sagan as well.

Yeah, well Sagan's dead now, so that decision doesn't amount to a hill of
beans as far as he's concerned (at least according to his own belief
system).  He might as well have been a Grape Nuts spokesman, which as far
as I can tell, is the most dangerous advertising job on earth.

Not that this is at all relevant to any of the discussion, but I just felt
like typing it, anyway.

    Dawn, is there anyone's opinion you do revere?

Actually, I always did respect Sagan and his opinions, but since he's dead
now, he hasn't come up with any new ones lately.

My short list of people with opinions I have revered (mostly dead people):

Kelly Johnson
Seymour Cray
Grace Hopper
Carl Sagan
Isaac Asimov

But, if I can't question someone's opinion, then I just become a parrot. 
Note that Jimmy Buffet is not on the list.

  I miss him.  Quick, name an astronomer...

  bb

Who's Kelly Johnson?

The aircraft industry's equivalent to Seymour Cray.

> But, if I can't question someone's opinion, then I just become a parrot. 

Assumes quite a few things that might not necessarily be true.

    .215
    
    Kelly Johnson ran Lockheed's "Skunk Works," where the U-2 and SR-71
    were developed.  He was a true visionary, capable of wonderful
    innovation and adaptation; the U-2, for example, started out life based
    on the fuselage of an F-104 Starfighter.