Conference napalm::heavy_metal

	Yea, but I'd never admit to first hearing anyone on MTV!

	The little I've heard I liked.  

		I will never ever use the reference eMpTy again
		I will never ever use the reference eMpTy again
		I will never ever use the reference eMpTy again
		

	PSA - With all the negative things you could say I guess they're 
	better than no music oriented television at all so I've changed 
	my tune (trying). Although it's still nice not having it 'cause I
	can enjoy it so much more when I do get to see it.

	{I found it interesting that there's a record label with a logo a bit 
	like it the eMpTy thing, MT Records or something.

	On a serious note I'd like to hear a bit more before adding it
	to any to-get list.

	- Jim

    I like that song really well.  In fact, I'll probably get the CD this
    weekend.  Tough.  And he's rubbing the fact that a black man can
    actually jam hard-core in everyone's face.  I think that's cool.

    
    
    
    	I have it and have listened to it a few times.  I like it... give 
    it a 6.5 out of 10.
    
    	Don't like the all the anti-cop stuff though.  During live shows
    he mentions how not all cops are bad... wish he'd include that on his
    recordings.
    
    
    Paul

    
    re: .4
    
    The Bad Brains did it first.

    Nice songs on the album, although I don't know
    if he is serious about the "cop killer" stuff.
    More like an "attitude"...
         I prefer Bad Brains & Fishbone.
    
                     

    Did everyone hear that Ice-T and his record company have backed down to
    the controversy raised by the police organizations and politicians
    around the country and have ordered the recall of all the Body Count
    records with the song "Cop Killer" on it?  The record is to be
    re-released without that track.
    
    Gh

    I saw the press conference where Ice-T announced he had asked Warner to
    take it off future releases of Body Count.  He gave his reasons for
    doing so as 1) police harressment of the families of Time/Warner
    employees and 2) to eliminate the argument that he did the song 'just
    for the money'.  He said he planned to give out copies of the song free
    at all his upcoming concerts.
    
    He also made some comments about why the police were singling him and
    that song in particular and rap in general.
    
    That's the readers digest version.  It actually was an interesting
    press conference (wonder what Pete would say if he were here now?)
    
    Cheers,
    
    BJ

    Personally, I think it's a big loss for free speech.  I was sad to see
    him back down, but I can understand his reasons.
    
>    He gave his reasons for doing so as 1) police harressment of the
>    families of Time/Warner employees
    
    It's interesting to me that the same problem that inspired him to write
    the song in the first place has now pressured him into withdrawing it.
    :-(
    
    I didn't get to hear the interview, just a quip on MTV News where Kurt
    Loder described the situation.
    
    gh

    
    He'll still get the song out.  It sucks that people are so tight-assed
    nowadays, though.
    
    I was at Newbury Comics last night, and talking to one of the guys
    there, said that since the hype, everybody has bought a copy of the
    album.  Most people probably don't realize that it's hardcore, and not
    rap.  Ice and WB are smiling all the way to the bank, regardless of
    what happens.
    
    It's a good album, IMO.
    
    Steve

    Yeah, all this controversy has turned what was doomed to be a small
    selling "nitch market" album into a blockbuster!  Suuuuuure, those cops
    got what they wanted done...and sold about a million more albums for
    T-W and Ice-T in the mean time.
    
    Personally, I don't really care for Ice-T (at least not his rap stuff),
    but I'll certainly defend his right to say (or sing) whatever he wants
    to!
    
    Greg (who didn't buy the album, but might consider it now)

    
    
     I find it hard to believe that Time/Warner would take any type of
    harrassment or sh*t from anyone. This is a HUGE corporation that has
    MEGA MEGA BUCKS, which translates to power. Seems like if someone was
    puttin the screws to them they could make it awfully hard on someone
    or some organization.
    
                           mike
    
    
                                                              

    Dan Qualye said he was glad to see Time Warner and Ice_T take the song
    off the album.  He said "It's not a constutional thing..They have a
    right to say what they want. But it is a MORAL thing...It's morally
    wrong.    
           PLEASE! DAN IS SOOOOOO NAFF!
    
             FRIZ
    

    Dan Quayle sucks!!!  Plain & Simple.  I wish he's take a long walk off
    a short pier.

    re .8
    
    I agree Dan Quayl(e) is an idiot.
    Body Count should never have caved in, neither should have Warner
    Bros.
    Maybe we will see this re-released on an independant who couldn't
    give a rat's as* if they get boycotted.
    

    You CAN'T be serious!!!!!
    
                 Friz
    

	I'm not surprised that such little attention is focused on the
	"lunatics" who made the threats.  

	I thought we already had a B.C. note?  

	- Jim

I heard on the news or somewhere that Ice-T was getting death-threats, and shortly
after he decided to take the song off the album.  Since then, I've lost what little
(and I mean little, since IMHO he's just fueling the fire) respect I had for him.
It's kinda like, he can dish it out, but he can't take it?

As a member of a minority group, I feel this racial thing is bad enough as it is, 
there's no need to magnify the problem, and I feel that's exactly what he was doing.

IMHO, of course. 

Jmystr

He did it for the money, and that's no funny!!!
8*)

Jmystr

>    Hey J, get a word wrap!
    
    More like "lose that DECwindows Mail"!
    
    gh

    
    As the SO of a cop I have to say I find this "artist" highly offensive. 
    Additionally, another song of his which was vulgarly stereotypical of
    southern white females, which I am also.  I am all for free speech, but
    crap like this doesn't have to be underwritten by a corp such as Time
    Warner.  As much money as they have, they could afford to lose this dab
    and keep the respect of the vast majority of people in this country.
    
    This person is simply doing this for the money and not paying any heed
    to the racial rift he is helping to continue.  As an American, that is
    his privilege.   But one would think he would be more responsible, as
    one would think Time Warner would be.
    
    I've been hearing a song I like very much, called "Save a Cop, Kill a
    Rapper."  Do you think Time Warner would subsidize it, and if so, how
    would one see about getting it published?  Maybe instead of being
    encased in a body bag it could have little cement boots instead!
                                         
    In this day and age, I can't say "Indian" without deserving sensitivity
    training.  Well, cops and southern b*tches have feelings too!  And no,
    finding this "work of art" to be highly offensive, I will not buy it
    nor will I listen to  any more of it.  It just amazes me what we call
    "art" these days.
    
    Flame off,
    Helen who is usually RO anyway
    
    

    
    >Well, southern b*tches have feelings too!
    
    
    	Yeah, but guys ignore them just as they do northern b*tches.
    
    
    	8^)
    							GTI
    

    re: Helen
    
    I also find Ice-T's material generally offensive.  I don't appreciate
    hearing his crude references to women (southern or otherwise) and I
    certainly don't advocate killing people, however, I fully support his
    right to say/sing/rap/publish/record *anything* he wants to.  This
    situation is IMO very dangerous to anyone who doesn't want the things
    they read or write to be censored.  
    
    I, for one, would be very angry is someone denied me my Constitutional
    right to say something in a song simply because someone else didn't
    like it.  What gives someone the right to mandate what I can and cannot
    say?
    
    re: GTI
    
    Even with the smiley's, I didn't think your reply was real appropriate. 
    It's stuff like that that keeps people RO...
    
    Greg
        

    The answer is really quite simple.
    
    If you don`t like it,don`t listen to it.
    

    I fully agree with all points made by Glh in -1.  Even as someone
    whos very close to switching over to a career as a police officer,
    I advocate the freedom of speech to the hilt.

    
    I just tried to enter a response from said SO.  He was very emotional. 
    When he said to start his note over, I misunderstood and completely
    deleted his note.  I wish that you had had the opportunity to read what
    he wrote.  
    
    >certainly don't advocate killing people, however, I fully support his
    >right to say/sing/rap/publish/record *anything* he wants to.  This
    >situation is IMO very dangerous to anyone who doesn't want the things
    >they read or write to be censored.
    
    I don't either Greg.  Is it Greg?  But that is EXACTLY what this music
    is advocating in murder.  I don't like the idea of censorship any more
    than you, but the situation he is fueling is MUCH more dangerous than
    any potential censorship.
    
   >I, for one, would be very angry is someone denied me my Constitutional
   >right to say something in a song simply because someone else didn't
   >like it.  What gives someone the right to mandate what I can and cannot
   >say?
    
    One thing that the unfortunately deleted note pointed out is that cops
    are the only segment of society that do NOT have the option of free
    speech.  And you'd better believe that they do NOT have this most
    fundamental of our freedoms!
    
    I am not arguing freedom of speech here.  This X-rated rascist has the
    right to stand on any street corner he wishes and spout this garbage. 
    At the same time, he also has the right to be arrested for being a
    public nuisance, disturbing the peace, inciting to riot (and that's
    EXACTLY what he's doing) and in his case we can probably add assault on
    an officer, assault with intent to kill and probably murder.
   
    Shouting "Fire!" in a theater is NOT protected freedom of speech, and
    insulting and hurtful garbage like this shouldn't be either.  Cops have
    less rights than ANY of us, why would we, as responsible humans beings,
    allow this **** to instigate anything against them?  Our cops protect
    us, we should respect them and help protect them in return.  It's time
    to stop turning the criminals into victims.
    
    And thanks, G_House for your response to GTI.  I am RO in lots of
    places and have seen both your names in lots of places, in many notes
    that cause me to feel respect for both of you.
    
    I certainly took no offense, GTI, I understand that you were kidding, but 
    I also appreciate your defense of me, G.  A most gentlemanly thing to do!
    
    Should we take it to soapbox?  I'm sure there's further discussion
    there.  If so perhaps someone more knowledgable than this little
    Southern Belle could extract my notes, put them there, and then let me
    know where to meet you.
    
    Love,
    Helen                     

    
    Now, to get the topic of why I'm RO.  It's not because I'm afraid of
    being flamed, is there anyone here that remembers me from the Rush
    Limbaugh topic in Soapbox?
    
    Four months or so ago I was looking for information on a rock group. 
    Upon checking this conference I found references to many groups I like
    so I put my note here.  Granted, the group in question is not HM but
    instead is hard rock.  I was more or less politely asked to take my
    note to MUSIC.
    
    I did, and in the last few months have had many opportunities to
    next/unseen past such incredibly BORING topics such as Jimmy Buffett,
    Prince, and Bruce effing Springsteen.  All the while watching topics in
    here flow by like King's X, Faith No More, Boston, Queen, Montrose and
    didn't I the other night see a topic in here on Sass Jordan?  I'll have
    to do a dir/title to be sure, but...
    
    Well, my group rocks Boston into the ground and make Sass sound
    country.  And here I was more or less asked to go elsewhere with my
    queries and now I find a topic on a RAPPER??? 
    
    Maybe I'm just confused.  But then again, I suppose it's a moot point
    anyway since only 2 people here have ever heard of the group I was
    trying to discuss.
    
    And while I'm at it, I LIKE the new one from Metallica and *I* look like
    Stevie Nicks...
    
    Regards,
    Helen                                                         

    Helen,
    
    I think HM is a conf. that really needs to be taken with a grain of
    salt.  It's not as serious as it may appear.  Sure, everone has their
    opinion, but you know what they say...Opinions are like @$$h*les...
    
    So, just hang loose and enjoy...it's actually a fun conf.
    
    
    Buck, who doesn't remember you from the Rush note in CATBOX, but hopes
    that you HATE him as much as I do!  8^)

    This topic isn't about a rapper...Ice T is a Rapper but his group Body
    Count is quite a speed/thrash band therefore it deserves to be in here.
      I feel for your side of the arguement but I think censorship in any
    form is sad....Ice T wrote the song in 3rd person. Music has always
    been very emotional for me and I KNOW it has for alot of other people 
    too...This just stirs the emotions like a good song should.
    Good or bad it's what music is for.  
    There are songs with lyrical content far worse than this song that
    never get any attention.  Why start censorship now?
             Friz
    
     

    I agree with Friz.
    
    Even though I think it sounds like $h!t doesn't mean they can't play
    it!  8^)
    
    Chad

    re: .29
           
>    I don't either Greg.  Is it Greg?  
    
    Right, Greg.
    
>    But that is EXACTLY what this music is advocating in murder.  
    
    I know that, that's why I said what I did.  Just because I don't agree
    with something Ice-T said, doesn't mean I would advocate censoring him.
    
>    I don't like the idea of censorship any more than you, but the
>    situation he is fueling is MUCH more dangerous than any potential
>    censorship.
 
    But also remember the situation which caused him to write that sort of
    song in the first place.  He used a "shock" method of saying what he
    was trying to get across, in an attempt to get someone to listen to it. 
    It would appear that it worked!  
    
    I don't honestly believe that he wants people to go kill the police. 
    I've heard interviews with him that said he didn't.  He was just
    trying to make a point, and did it in an extreme way.
       
>   >I, for one, would be very angry is someone denied me my Constitutional
>   >right to say something in a song simply because someone else didn't
>   >like it.  What gives someone the right to mandate what I can and cannot
>   >say?
>    
>    One thing that the unfortunately deleted note pointed out is that cops
>    are the only segment of society that do NOT have the option of free
>    speech.  And you'd better believe that they do NOT have this most
>    fundamental of our freedoms!
    
    I'm sorry, but I don't believe that.  Now, that may be true while they
    are in the context of their job, but I have a hard time believing that
    there are some sort of restrictions on what they can say outsice of
    their profession.  This is not that different from the job-related
    restrictions any other professional person has.  I do NOT have "freedom
    of speech" in the context of my job at Digital, none of us do.  If we
    excercise our "freedom of speech" in certain manners while representing
    Digital, it is not likely we will be working here very long.
    
    I realize that the police profession involves more risks, and more
    restrictions, then many other occupations, and I can appreciate that,
    but I also believe that anyone that chooses do do that for a living
    accepts that when they take the job.  If someone doesn't like the
    restrictions of a particular job, they always have the option of doing
    something else.  
    
    I realize this is a minor point in comparison, but it's just a small
    example.  The last job I worked at was pretty restrictive with respect
    to your appearance.  They expected you to appear conservative, ie have
    short hair, wear "dress cloths" (nice slacks, shirt, and tie) at work. 
    I personally found that distasteful, because I prefer to wear my hair a
    little longer.  That was one of the contributing factors which drove my
    decision to leave.
                      
>    Cops have
>    less rights than ANY of us, why would we, as responsible humans beings,
>    allow this **** to instigate anything against them?  
    
    Well, it could be argued that while the police have less rights then
    the rest of us do in some respects, that they also have more rights. 
    Power implies restriction and the police have control over the rest of
    us.  I have personally be harrassed by a policeman and I certainly
    didn't feel like he had less rights then I did.
    
>    Our cops protect
>    us, we should respect them and help protect them in return.  
    
    Not to start a major war here or anything, but it seems to me that if
    our cops were doing such a great job at this, then people like Ice-T
    would't be flaming on them.
                               
>    And thanks, G_House for your response to GTI.  I am RO in lots of
>    places and have seen both your names in lots of places, in many notes
>    that cause me to feel respect for both of you.
 
    Gee, I didn't think I participated in that many conferences anymore...
       
>    Should we take it to soapbox?  
    
    You may if you wish, but I don't do SOAPBOX...
    
    Greg

    Helen...You have to realize all cops aren't the "true blue" we expect
    them to be BUT most of them do a great job.  Take into consideration 
    that alot of cities are different than yours and police brutality is
    a problem.  Cops are human too and can have bad days like the rest of
    us.
    I think that Ice-T has a legit arguement and has the right to voice his
    opinion.  Just as you have the right to voice you opinion that you
    don't like the song.
          I've seen plenty of interviews with Ice-T on T.V. and he said "
     To say all cops are bad would be wrong but some just want the badge to
    fill up their insecurities that they've had since they were little punk
    kids . They think they have the right to play God...When we kill
    someone we goto jail...when they do they retire."
    
        I think the problem is REAL and he has a right to expose the
    problem.
                Friz
     

    TH cops in Colorado Springs are a lot different. They let people get
    beaten to death a block away from the police station.
    
    8^)

    True...I don't think that very funny but it's true.
      I've read reports that say people tried to tell a cop what was
    happening but all he said was "I hope they kill each other".
    
              Friz
    

    Whoa!  Hey!  I never expected a response like this!
    
    I only suggested Soap because it would seem a more appropriate place
    for this discussion than a music conference.  But I don't do soap
    either, for various reasons; not the least of which is you won't find
    this sort of relatively substantive response there.
    
    So ok, discussion hasn't been canned yet.
    
    I wish very much I could respond to many individual things that were
    said, but it would take at least 200 lines.  I'll leave the
    personal-experience cop things out, except to say that you people would
    be very, very surprised at how many rights and privileges a person
    loses when he dons the uniform, and I'm not talking about those lost
    during work hours but during PRIVATE time also.  In fact, it would stun
    you how being associated with a cop limits MY freedoms.  Believe it or
    not.  Send SASE and I'll tell you experiences that you won't believe,
    and having been through a few, I don't believe them either.  But that's
    the way it is.
    
    Now, having gotten that out of the way, let me state that I am not FOR
    censorship.  H*ll, "KKK Bitch" really doesn't bug me all that much
    because I can and do ignore it.  What you people aren't getting is the
    whole freedom of speech issue.  He does not have the right to this type
    of garbage and if you'll bear with me, I'll explain.
    
    Every society has a system of checks and balances that allows it to
    survive.  We in the United States seem to be rapidly losing our check
    and balances and "Cop Killer" is a prime example of this.  When
    thinking
    of check and balances, the simplest example of this is probably the
    animal kingdom.  Of course, I'm referring to the 4-legged animals and
    not the 2-legged.  Survival of the fittest; the strong and healthy take
    down the old, the young, the infirm and thereby create a balance
    between all species.  Do away with the checks and balances and you have
    a situation that existed in Australia:  sheep farmers kill off the
    (dingos?) that are killing their sheep.  Bingo!  Sheep proliferate! 
    Unfortunately, so do rabbits...
    
    We in the US are free, are we not?  As an American citizen, I am free
    and therefore free to do as I wish, right?  This is your freedom of
    speech cry here.  Being a US citizen, I am free and can do as I wish. 
    WRONG!  Because of our system of checks and balances, I cannot do what
    I wish simply because I'm an American and free.  For instance, I may
    wish to blow ice tee-tee several new *ssholes.  But I can't because
    that's against the law.  So I'm not free, I'm subject to the checks and
    balances of our society.
    
    Now, follow me closely here.  Freedom of speech is a restricted freedom
    just as many other of our freedoms are restricted freedoms.  If you
    don't believe me, then check your own sources.  Reprinted w/o perm from
    World Book Encyclopedia: "A person has no right to make a speech which
    directly endangers people's lives or property, or threatens the
    security of the country and of the actual laws which guarantee free
    speech."  Does any body here have any doubt that this is EXACTLY what
    "Cop Killer" does? 
    
    Re: -1, -2:
    
    It's not funny.  It is true.  You'll see and hear more and more of it. 
    When I say that we should help our police this is what I mean.  The
    police see/hear literally no support from the public, and we need to
    let them know that we stand behind them.  Otherwise, one day someone
    will be beating the sh*t out of you in front of the station and they're
    not going to lift a finger.  And I for one, won't blame them.  They can
    no longer do their jobs without the accusing finger of John Q. Pulic in
    their face.
     
    To the response somewhere that "Body Count" is crash-groove or some
    such:  I do not care for labels.  The ones I recognize are as follows:
    rock, heavy metal, country, rap and wussy-music.  Altho I have heard
    some nice combinations of rap/metal and rap/rock I do not differentiate
    much more than that.  I can only assume that you mean that, somewhere,
    amidst the garbage that this is, there is something that resembles
    real music.  However, I still stand insulted that a rap album is
    discussed when I was asked to take my queries elsewhere.
    
    Re: Greg
    
    Guitar, perhaps?
    
    Rgds,
    Helen
    
     

    I have the album and it's definitely not rap.  
                                                              
    And btw, Ice-T has accomplished exactly what he wanted, which was to
    make people like you mad...don't let it get to you!  If you make a big
    deal out of it, he wins.  IMHO of course.
    
    'pril

    
	RE: Helen
    
	>real music.  However, I still stand insulted that a rap album is
	>discussed when I was asked to take my queries elsewhere.
    
    	I can see your point.  A rather lame comparison I'm sure but
    	Anthrax has done a few rap tunes yet are still considered to
    	be heavy metal.  I still view Ice-T as a rapper even though he's
    	done this latest piece of work...
    
    	I'm sorry that for whatever reason you were asked to take
    	your queries elsewhere, I hope you will continue to note
    	here and not stay RO... your opinions are refreshing!
    
    	tigg~~~~

    
    IMHO, the Freedom of Speech/Expression thing holds.  I mean, if the
    Supreme Court says that those WAR/KKK/Skinhead types can run around the
    country burning crosses and touting their Anti-World rhetoric, what's
    the difference between also upholding the right to write songs about
    killing cops, etc. ?
    
    Same difference...same impact...

    
    'Body Count's in the House' is the theme tune to Universal soldier...I
    must get this album.  .....I must go and see the film again....
    
    Flip

    |KS|,
    
    >it got taken off the album.  *I* found it offensive myself!  I don't
    >think there should be songs like that about killing *any* group or
    >organization (or race.)  
    >
    >
    >Take for example Iron Maiden's Run To The Hills.  It's about killing
    >Indians.  This song is okay because it's in the context of the old
    >west.  Fighting the Indians with bows and arrows, and "running for your
    >life". 
    
    
    Ken, do you know how to spell Hypocrisy?  How bout Double Standard?
    
    I have some Indian friends who find RTTH's offensive, as it (in their
    eyes) promotes the slaughtering of their race (which did happen, btw).
    
    

    re: buck
    
    Yeah I knew somebody was going to point something like that out.
    
    After I said "*any* group..."  I thought I clarified what I meant.
    
    It's one thing if the song just tells a story, (like a movie.)
    Your Indian friends dont find Westerns offensive do they?
    
    |KS|
    

    >Your Indian friends dont find Westerns offensive do they?
    
    Actually, they do.  Maybe it's hard to see from your perspective.

    re: Helen
    
    Not to seem pedantic, but still believe that Ice-T used an extreme
    stance to make his point.  It's obviously been very effective.  Even
    after having withdrawn the song, he's made his point and (IMO) that's
    all he was trying to do.
    
    Taking an extreme position to prove a point is nothing new.  I remember
    an author (who's name escapes me at the moment) who wrote a piece
    in the midst of the depression in England in the 1800's.  His piece
    advocated that they solve the poverty and overpopulation problem by
    having the poor sell their children to others as food.  Looking back,
    it's obvious that he didn't mean that seriously (or did he?).  In
    either case, it's considered classic literature and is widely
    studied...
        
>    Guitar, perhaps?
    
    Yeah, you'll see me regularly in here, GUITAR, and HOME_STUDIO.  Those
    are about the only one's I stay current on anymore.

    Greg

    If it's socially ok to kill Indians, then it should be socially ok to
    kill cops as well.

    
    Anyone who takes a particular interest in this topic should read this
    week's Rolling Stone interview with Ice-T.
    
    I liked Ice-T before, but I have a bit of a new respect for him now. 
    He's not stupid.
    
    All of you who think that this BC thing is wrong, you really need to
    sit back and take stock of where you are in the world.  Think about it. 
    All of us here are arguably well paid, and arguably have good jobs. 
    Think about everyone from south central LA.  They have nothing. 
    Something like 95,000 people are out of work there alone.  Under Daryl
    Gates, police brutality was commonplace.  This is where Ice-T came
    from.  This is how he was influenced.  I don't blame him for writing
    this at all.  I don't advocate murder in most cases, but all of us
    don't have any clue as to what these peoples lives are like.  You can
    say whatever you want, but until it happens to you, and it won't, then
    you really can't say anything.
    
    I was with some friends of mine, black friends, in Maine last year.  We
    were pulled over for no reason.  The car was searched and, all of the 
    black men were searched, but not me.  I happen to be white.  This is
    the kind of thing these people face every day.  America the free. 
    Bullsht.  
    
    The most anyone in here could write about is a H_M tune about
    being worried about losing your nice computer job and being given 6
    months free pay, which is more than most people in this country get,
    period.
    
    I just think that you can say what you want, about Ice-T and his music
    and others' music and what they have to say, but just remember that 
    you're on the inside looking out.
    
    Steve

    Excellent point...
    
        Friz
    

    Greg,
    
    >Not to seem pedantic, but still believe that Ice-T used an extreme
    >stance to make his point.  It's obviously been very effective.  Even
    
    I think that he has taken a stance that is creating danger for a LOT of
    people, not just cops.  It's been effective?  In doing what?  What has
    this song done to actually alleviate suffering in the inner cities? 
    HOW DOES THIS SONG HELP SOLVE ANYTHING?
    
    >advocated that they solve the poverty and overpopulation problem by
    >having the poor sell their children to others as food.  Looking back,
    >it's obvious that he didn't mean that seriously (or did he?).  In
    
    Hindsight's 20/20.  What we need here is foresight.  It's easy to look
    back 100 years and say, yeah, that would have been a bad thing to do,
    good thing we didn't!  Or, yeah, that was a bummer, shame our ancestors
    didn't have the same point of view that we have.  Can you predict
    what's going to happen as a result of his cop killer song?  I shudder
    to think!  My point was (and still is) that this song sould not be
    condoned because of freedom of speech issues because I don't believe it
    falls into the same category: it is very, very dangerous speech and
    therefore should not be protected.
    
    I'm well aware that he's trying to point out a problem and using LA as
    his example.  But please, pray tell, who has not seen the problem in LA
    over and over and OVER again?  I have to ask why we need cop killer (I
    refuse to capitalize it) to ram this point home when I believe that it
    is going to do a great deal more damage than just bring home a point.
    (I won't go into the LA thing here.  I have some very strong feelings
    about that, too.)
    
    (>Yeah, you'll see me regularly in here, GUITAR, and HOME_STUDIO.  Those
    Thought so.  I'm RO in Guitar, just trying to understand some things. 
    I can more easily imagine being telepathic than I can understand the
    creation of music, which is a very beautiful thing!  What's
    HOME_STUDIO?)
    
    Not to pick on you here, you just had more statements that I wanted to
    respond to than anyone else and I don't know how to "reply" to more
    than one note at a time.  Maybe someone can enlighten me.
    
    Tigg:  Thanks, buddy. With a TSFO massacre hanging over our office, I
    don't know how much longer I'll be around.
    
    Buck:  I don't believe that the Supreme Court has found any right for
    the KKK/Skinhead types to do ANYTHING but march.  Down here we fuss and
    fume and get indignant, but nobody goes to the marches, they're just
    ignored.  I don't think young blacks are ignoring cop killer or it's
    predecessor f*ck the police.
    
    Swanson:  I am also not comfortable when I see the police.  As a matter
    of fact, I got pulled once by the SO himself!  Blue lights and
    everything, he pulled up beside my van and asked me if I had an
    operators license, to which I replied, "No I don't!  Plus, my inspection
    and my tags have expired and I have 3 kilos of pot back here!  What do
    you think your going to do about it?"  All in fun, but my hands shook
    for half an hour afterwards, and he and I had been together for 5 years
    then.
    
    I am not familiar with the Iron Maiden song.  But if it is written in
    the past tense then there is indeed a difference between it and cop
    killer.  LA is waiting to explode again, and I believe that it will. 
    And I further more believe that when it does, it'll be to the beat of
    cop killer.
    
    Regards,
    Helen, who's sitting home alone tonight, wondering if this will be the
    night I get the phone call because this guy impressed some young punk..
    
    
    
    

    re: Helen getting pulled over by SO.
    
    But he was just kidding, and you knew it!  He must have known you
    didn't have an operators liscence, your inspection tags were expired,
    and.... well I don't believe you had 3 kilos (6.6 lbs) of pot in the
    car!
    
    You were just shaking because you got pulled over and didn't know who
    it was until he came up to your window!
    
    That Iron Maiden song was actually told from both points of view (now
    that I take the time to read the lyrics).  So maybe it wasn't a good
    example after all.
    
    One verse:	White man came across the sea
    		He brought us pain and misery
    		He Killed our tribes, he killed our creed
    		He took our game for his own need.
    		We fought him hard, we fought him well
    		Out on the plains we gave him hell
    
    Another 
    verse:	Riding through dustlands and barren wastes
    		Galloping hard on the plains
    		Chasing the redskins back to their holes
    		Fighting them at their own game
    		Murder for freedom the stab in the back
    		Women and children the cowards attack
    
    |KS|
    

RE -.1

I'm not IM fan so, I don't know the rest of the song...  But what I just 
read, doesn't sound like it's advocating anything, but just telling a 
a part of history.  Perhaps if we're reminded of the attempted Genocide
(almost succeeded) of those people, perhaps we can steer away from it in 
the future...

Whereas I do have a problem with the WAY that Ice-T is telling the story.
Granted that I have not heard the whole song, but my impression is nothing 
like that of one telling a story, but more in context of what SHOULD happen. 
I felt the same with that Sister Soldier song.  They seem to advocate 
violence.

I believe those in high visible areas such as the media or entertainment 
should regulate themselves from doing damaging acts such as these.  These 
people have the power to influence the masses to a certain degree, and that 
power really should be respected. 

The freedom of speech comes with responsibilities.  I've been told by 
mods in this and other conferences to cool it when they felt I was making
inflamatory comments about other members in the conferences.  I've even
been threaten to be taken to personnel.  Now, was I excercising my right
to freedom of speech?  And if so, should I pay the price for excercising
my right?  If I choose to speak out, then I must choose to accept others
who wishes to respond, right?

I'd like to write more, but gotta head home, so...Ya'll take care and
have a great weekend!!!

Jmystr

    
    Maybe the US Police should retaliate by writing songs like "Lets all
    beat sh*t out of innocent motorists and spark a f!@#$%^ riot!"

    
    >You were just shaking because you got pulled over and didn't know who
    >it was until he came up to your window!
    
    No no!  I knew it was him!  He was sitting off the side of the road
    doing paperwork.  I was looking at him, and he was looking at me, and I
    could see him thinking "aHA!" and I was thinking "oh NO!  He's going to
    pull me, no sh*t!"  I was perfectly legal in every way, not even
    speeding (the first thing I look at when I see one is my speedometer)
    and I knew he was going to do it just for the heck of it.
    
    It's the whole uniform-and-blue-lights thing!  It shakes me up no
    matter who's doing it!
    
    Helen
    

People in power, such as the police, must use wisdom with their power.
If not that power will corrupt.  There's lots of corruption in this 
world, not only in police departments, but EVERYWHERE.  So does this
mean we should go out and kill EVERYONE?

But the police corruption is a symptom, not the cause of the problem.  
Police brutality and harrassment of minors is a symptom, not the root 
of the problem.  I think the root of the problem may never be fixed 
completely, or if it can be fixed, it's not something our generation can 
fix.  We as in parents have a responsibility to try to teach our 
children so that the problem may be closer to resolution by their 
generation.  That's probably the only real solution to this cause.

Now, those empowered to speak to the masses must also use wisdom with
their power.  If there were no laws in place to keep them in check,
this power will corrupt also.

I think the part of the cause is the SOCIETY's lack of respect.  Some 
police do not respect the public(whether criminals or not), and some 
public do not respect the police(whether corrupted or not).  And some
of the public do not respect others of the public.  Some minority groups
do not respect other minority groups.  Some people don't even respect 
themselves!

Well, looking at this, maybe Ted Bundy had the right idea?  NOT!
Causes do not justify the means!

This should have never become us them thing between blacks(or minority) 
and whites.  I don't think that's the ROOT issue.  Hell, you can be 
ANY color or religion or in uniform or not, if you're an a$$h*le, 
you're an a$$h*le, bottom line.  I'd like to smack KKK members as much
as I'd like to smack some fellow minority who blurts out "prejudice" 
every chance they get!  Gimme a break!  I'm a minority, and **I'M** 
tired of issued being turned into a minority vs white issue, and I can 
just imagine how a non-minority would feel.

Jmystr

PS  Good morning fellow Saturday noters!!!

    Helen,
    
> It's been effective?  In doing what?  
    
    In getting his point across to a very large audience.  Controversy
    means that people are hearing something and thinking about it.  The
    bigger the controversy, generally means that more people are thinking
    about it.  I doubt many people would *agree* with the point made in the
    song, but if it got people thinking about it, I believe that was all
    Ice-T wanted.
    
>    What has
>    this song done to actually alleviate suffering in the inner cities? 
    
    I don't know whether it's done anything or not, since I don't live
    there or know anyone who does.  I can only speak for myself, but it's
    made me think about the problems we have with racism and police
    violence and examine the situation around me more, and I've never even
    heard the song.
    
    In fact, knowing what little I do about it, I don't really care to. 
    But that's not the point anyway...
    
>    HOW DOES THIS SONG HELP SOLVE ANYTHING?
    
    Like I say, I don't know that it does or doesn't.  I suppose that
    depends on the conclusion people come to after thinking about it.  If
    the conclusion is to increase violence by anyone, or to increase the
    whatever cleft people feel towards others based on their race, then
    it's not done anything to solve the problem.  However if enough people
    examine themselves and decide that's not what they want to do, then it
    could potentially be beneficial.
    
>    I'm well aware that he's trying to point out a problem and using LA as
>    his example.  But please, pray tell, who has not seen the problem in LA
>    over and over and OVER again? 
 
    I've read that the song was written and recorded substantially before
    the riots in LA occurred.  Would we all be ignorant to the problem
    there appears to be there if someone hadn't had a video camera when
    Rodney King was "arrested" that night and the national press hadn't
    found such a fancy with it?  My understanding is that Ice-T lives in
    LA, so he has to deal with that all the time, not on the TV or radio
    where he can change stations if he finds it unpleasant or sees too much
    of it, like most of the rest of us can.
    
>    What's HOME_STUDIO?)
    
    It's a notes conference that discusses home recording equipment and
    techniques.  Pretty low volume, but very interesting, if you're into
    that.
    
>    Not to pick on you here, you just had more statements that I wanted to
>    respond to than anyone else 
    
    I don't mind you picking at my replies, I've obviously taken the
    controversial side of this issue, and as such, I expect to take some
    flames.  I do think, however,  that I've fully explored my opinion on
    the issue at this point and I don't plan on elaborating on it much
    further in here.  Naturally, I'll be happy to read the rest of the
    responses, and will be happy to talk about it in Mail, but I'm not sure
    it's continuing to remain interesting for the other readers at this
    point.
    
>    and I don't know how to "reply" to more
>    than one note at a time.  Maybe someone can enlighten me.
 
    I extract them to a file and include them as I want.  There's probably
    other ways too.
                               
    re: J.
          
>The freedom of speech comes with responsibilities.  I've been told by 
>mods in this and other conferences to cool it when they felt I was making
>inflamatory comments about other members in the conferences.  I've even
>been threaten to be taken to personnel.  Now, was I excercising my right
>to freedom of speech?  And if so, should I pay the price for excercising
>my right?  If I choose to speak out, then I must choose to accept others
>who wishes to respond, right?

    As I mentioned a few notes back, what we say in the course of our jobs
    isn't covered by our constitutional rights, but rather by Digital's
    Policies and Procedures manual (especially when we are using Digital's
    equipment to  conveyed what we're saying).  That's part of the
    agreement which we accept when we accept employment here.  If we don't
    like living with these restrictions, then we can exercise our freedom
    to choose another job.
    
    Greg

    
    Would it be against conference rules ( or better judgement) to produce
    the lyrics of this song in this note?  I have never heard it, and
    probably won't, and I think seeing the lyrics at least would put the
    excellent comments made in this note into better perspective.
    
    Could someone do this?
    
    Thanks, 
    Frank (temporary-type dude)
    

>    Would it be against conference rules ( or better judgement) to produce
>    the lyrics of this song in this note? 
    
    Speaking as one of the converence's moderators, I think it would be
    against both the rules and better judgement to republish the complete
    lyrics here.
    
    If someone has them available, and is willing to mail them around, let
    us know.
    
    Greg

    .53 Montgomery
    
    >very dangerous speech and therefore should not be protected.
    
    This statement is more dangerous than anything Ice-T has ever said. 
    Who is to say what is "dangerous" speech?  Are you part of the
    conservative ideology and the "moral majority?"  
    
    ALL speech MUST be protected. 
    
    There is a lot of speech which is gross, disgusting, deplorable, and
    yes, even downright dangerous.  This kind of speech should be ignored
    and discouraged.  Not banned.  The minute you start moralizing free
    speech for other people, you then have lost the meaning of the first
    ammendment.  If this was ignored by all of you screaming foul, this topic 
    would not exist, and Ice-T would be millions poorer than he is today.
    
    BTW, how many people have *actually* heard the song and the lyrics?
    
    Steve

>    If this was ignored by all of you screaming foul, this topic 
>    would not exist, and Ice-T would be millions poorer than he is today.
 
    I agree completely.  This is what I was trying to say before.  While
    Ice-T has been reasonably successful as a rap artist, Body Count was
    going nowhere as a metal-rap blend, until this controvery came up.  Now
    that song is being championed as an "anthem for free speech" due to
    people trying to repress it.  
    
    Any time you create a controversy about something, it will sell and
    attract more interest.  If people had thought about this simple
    marketing fact before they made such a big stink about this song, it
    would have probably remained in quiet obscurity.
    
    It's the same thing that happened with the big "back masking" flurry a
    few years ago.  Not only did the religious zealots who championed that
    cause NOT get much support, but they sold a MILLIONS of albums for the
    very artists which they were trying to get banned.
                    
>        BTW, how many people have *actually* heard the song and the lyrics?
    
    I don't know, I haven't.  If you read my replies, I only defended Body
    Count's right to sing it, not the song (since I don't have a basis for
    trying to defend the song, even if I felt so inclined).
    
    Here's an interesting factoid for you.  I was reading some reviews of
    the Lallopalosa show in New England in the RADIO_RADIO conference while
    I was waiting on a software installation test earlier and found it
    interesting that several people pointed out that Soundgarden covered
    "Cop Killer".  The people that noted that seemed pleased about it.
        
    Greg

    True...How VERY true!
    
     The album had FALLEN off the billboard charts and was DEAD in the
    water.....Now it's at #27.  Ice-T even made the cover of Rolling Stone
    in a policeman's uniform.  
    
    Peopl should think first and then speak. (Not like I do) 8P
    
                    Friz
    

I've stayed out of this topic up until now - not for any particular reason,
just not much to say about it. (Although I will say that my feelings are
very similar to Greg's in this matter, and that he quite eloquently defended
that position. Having friends who are police officers, I sympathize with Helen;
but I have to admit that I don't agree with her point of view.)

There is one essential part missing here - the discussion of responsibilities 
for one's own actions. This has been discussed in this file several times 
before, since a variety of heavy metal acts have been made out to be the 
reason a teenager commits suicide (the two that come to mind are Ozzy's 
"Suicide Solution" suit and Judas Priest's recent court battle).

In those discussions, it was basically agreed that people blame too much on
the music. But aren't we doing the same kind of accusations here??? I mean,
if someone goes off and murders a police officer, is Ice-T really to blame???
Don't you think that person would have killed anyways? I can't imagine a 
SONG inciting a person to violence who had not already had violence in mind! 

In the similar fashion that it was argued that suicidal teenagers are going to
kill themselves no matter what music they listen to, I would also argue that
homocidal teenagers are going to kill, no matter what music *they* listen to!
I can't see blaming Ice-T for any police officer's murder, short of Ice-T 
pulling the trigger himself.

alan
_a_closet_Frozen_Ghost_fan!_really!_

    I've heard the song.  I have the lyrics...if anyone's interested, send
    mail.
    
    'pril

RE: .59

Greg

<   As I mentioned a few notes back, what we say in the course of our jobs
<   isn't covered by our constitutional rights, but rather by Digital's
<   Policies and Procedures manual (especially when we are using Digital's
<   equipment to  conveyed what we're saying).  That's part of the
<   agreement which we accept when we accept employment here.  If we don't
<   like living with these restrictions, then we can exercise our freedom
<   to choose another job.
    
Right!  So than, shouldn't it be logical that we extend that logic to say,
if you don't like the responsibility of the freedom of the speech, then
one should go find another country to live in?

Being from another country, I can attest to the fact that I appreciate
the constitutional right of freedom of speech, because the majority of 
the countries around the world does not have that priviledge.  But if
everyone here was abusing that priviledge, sooner or later, it can be 
taken away.  And maybe we should look at the freedom of speech as being
more "PRIVILEDGE", as apposed to "RIGHTS".  Perhaps the native citizens 
of this country are a little spoiled because they've been fed "steaks" 
all their lives as apposed to "hamberger helpers"?

RE: .65

Alan

<  There is one essential part missing here - the discussion of responsibilities 
<  for one's own actions. This has been discussed in this file several times 
<  before, since a variety of heavy metal acts have been made out to be the 
<  reason a teenager commits suicide (the two that come to mind are Ozzy's 
<  "Suicide Solution" suit and Judas Priest's recent court battle).

Yes!  But also, the artists should use a little self control, and take 
the responsibility on their actions.  There are many imbalanced people 
out there who would take their lyrics literally, and kids look up to 
people like Judas Priest, Ozzy Osborne, and Ice-T, and they become a 
role model for them.  And they should take on a little responsibility
to use a little self control on "tender" issues.  I wouldn't want my kid
becoming "desensitized" on ANY issues while growing up, but if one 
listens to one type of message over and over again, one cannot help 
but to be a little "brain-washed".

Like someone else said earlier, it's not an issue of legality, it's an 
issued of morality.

Also, I think everyone here are saying pretty much the same thing, but 
not realizing it???

Jmystr

    
    Jymster,
    
    You are a man after my own heart, you understand.
    
    I'd say more but it's been a stressful day:  and I don't wear a gun and
    bullet proof vest to work.
    
    Helen

    
   >alan
   >_a_closet_Frozen_Ghost_fan!_really!_
    
    Could I coerce you into contacting me offline?  If so, send E-mail...
    
    Helen

RE: .68

Helen
<    You are a man after my own heart, you understand.
    
Thanks.  But I also agreed that there are corruption in the Police 
force, too...

There are two sides to every coin......

<    I'd say more but it's been a stressful day:  and I don't wear a gun and
<    bullet proof vest to work.

You almost HAVETO these days...  8*( 
I'd hate to lose a child to these Ice-T "influenced punks" on a killing 
rampage after killing everyone at a police station.  I won't be looking
at who to blame then, I'd be morning a loss of a child, and it won't 
matter whose fault it is.  It'll only matter that someone is dead without
reaching his full potential in life.

Luckily, CoS is not THAT bad in terms of gang violence, but it does 
exist, and people do get killed, in a meaningless death in meaningless
dispute.

Luckily, CoS is not THAT bad in terms of Police corruption, but is also
does exist, and they do tend to abuse their power a little, too.

Jmystr  
who_thinks_police_should_be_out_busting_punks_instead_of_doughnuts

    
    
    My step-father's a cop. I have the album. I'm not up at nights with a
    knife lurking over his bed. It's ridiculous how blown out of proportion
    this thing is. It's a warning message that society isn't getting. They
    just think it's a jerk out to make people kill others. I think we've
    all heard that one before.
    
    
    
    Chris

    It's only a song. If anyone actaully do like the song tell then 
    
    that person have nothing up there. I think it's stupid kill yourself
    after listening a song. Just like that kids listened to Judas Priest.
    
    KL

    
    Well the kids who listened to Priest were drunk and stoned as hell. I'm
    sure they heard the Bambi theme song as well. 

    re: .67

>Right!  So than, shouldn't it be logical that we extend that logic to say,
>if you don't like the responsibility of the freedom of the speech, then
>one should go find another country to live in?

    Sure, however the way the Constitution is worded, it is a right, not a
    privilege, to be able to say anything you want to.  The rest of the
    laws are what dictate that you will be responsible for what you say.  
         
>But if everyone here was abusing that priviledge, sooner or later, it can be 
>taken away.  
    
    I believe that if it ever comes to the point that particular right is
    removed then the American way of life as we know it, will have been
    completely eradicated.
    
    Greg
          

    
    

    > Sure, however the way the Constitution is worded, it is a right, not a
    > privilege, to be able to say anything you want to.  The rest of the
    > laws are what dictate that you will be responsible for what you say.  
    
    	True. You can say anything you want. Whatever it may be. But the
    reactions of the words might cause someone elses rights to be violated.
    That's where it becomes tricky, and why we have lawyers.
    
    
    

RE .74

<    I believe that if it ever comes to the point that particular right is
<    removed then the American way of life as we know it, will have been
<    completely eradicated.
 
Yup.  NBC and their movement to revoke the right to bear arms! 

What I'm saying is that maybe we should treat it more like a priviledge 
instead of using the right to blab about every litle thing.  Remember the
boy who cried wolf?

Now, what's gonna happen if another rapper comes out with some really
positive message?  Is he gonna be stereo-typed and ignored by the masses
because of this Ice-T bozo?

The bottom line is I still think he did it for the money!!!

Jmystr

>The bottom line is I still think he did it for the money!!!
    
    Could be, but I don't think he would have made squat if the police
    organizations in this country hadn't made such a big deal about that
    song.  The whole album was a nitch market type thing to begin with, and
    would never have sold real big without the controversy.  I'm sure he
    didn't mind them making him rich out of the deal though.
    
>Yup.  NBC and their movement to revoke the right to bear arms! 
    
    I never liked bear anyway, smelly creatures...
    
    gh

    
    
    Off the issue abit, i saw Universal Soldier last night and while the
    credits were rolling up, there was some heavy guitar chugging away and
    someone repeating "body count, body count". It sounded quite cool what
    i heard, is this Ice-T's band???   If so i think i'll buy the album!
    
    
    
    EWAN
    

    Yep - it`s "Body Count" by Body Count,or so i`ve been told by this
    bird i know.
    

    
    Snog?  Understatement!
    
    The tune is 'BC's in the house' but you won't be able to get the album
    for a few weeks....it was only available on import and all copies have
    been sent back,  It will be re-released without Cop Killer.
    
    

>    The tune is 'BC's in the house' but you won't be able to get the album
>    for a few weeks....it was only available on import and all copies have
>    been sent back,  It will be re-released without Cop Killer.
    
    No, the recall was not manditory.  Any record store that wanted to keep
    their current stock of the album had that option.  My understanding is
    that it's still available in some stores.  I'm sure most of the big
    chain stores sent them back (or sold 'em out) though.
    
    FWIW, I've heard that song "Body Count's in the House" and thought it
    was really boring.  The guitar sounds like a random jam with that one
    phrase repeated over it rap style at certain intervals.  It's too long
    and goes nowhere, IMO.  Probably great for background sound under the
    film credits though.  Don't know if it was explicitly written with that
    in mind or not.  If it was, that would explain it, if not...it just
    sucks.
    
    Greg
          

    Buy the new Rolling Stone if you want to know more about the whole
    scam.  You can't miss the issue...It has Ice-T in a pocileman's uniform
    and the article is quite good.
    
           Friz
    

    
    Greg, it's been recalled from Our Price, HMV, Record Basement, Boots,
    W.H.Smiths and Virgin....there are no other record shops in Reading.
    
    

    Have you tried London,Flip?
    

    
    ...Stoo wants to borrow it after I've bought it.....
    
    

    Yep. So hurry up and get a copy.
    
    ho!ho!
    

    Guess you'd better take Chris up on his offer then...
    
    I haven't looked for it myself.
    
    gh

    Y'all really aren't missing that much...

    
    	BMG listed this album in their catalog, with "Cop Killer", so I
    	ordered 2 copies [1 for me, 1 for Escobar].  Yesterday, I got a
    	card in the mail saying that 2 selections that I had ordered
    	were no longer available ... guess which ones?
    
    							GTI
    

    Hey Guys ,
    
    are you just tired of BC or don't you read notes any more ? I'm still
    enjoying the copkiller album , but looking forward for new stuff , too.
    I've heard rumors about a new album soon to be released , named BORN
    DEAD or something like that . Checking the local (Munich) CD Shops
    didn't show further hints .
    
    Does anyone know about a new album , whatever it's name it will be ??
    
    Peter
    

    
    	Picked up "Body Count" yesterday [used] ... Ice T is a very angry
    	MF, isn't he?  Lots of hate/rage spewing forth.
    
    	But the album rips.  I've listened almost all the way through and
    	I like it.  Quite heavy, and some humor ["Evil Dick" is a riot].
    

	I like the one about him going out with the Klansman's daughter.

	/CAP'N QUAD
	

    
    is Cop Killer on it?
    
    
    					Ian

    
    	Yes, it is ... not the best song on there, but it's good.
    
    	"Body Count" is my favorite so far ... "on with the body count!!".
    

    
    Their second disc is a little heavier and it's got some serious stuff
    on it as well.
    
    Don't know which I prefer but I do know this band is kickin'.
    
    Rick

    
    	Wow, didn't know there WAS a 2nd!!
    
    	Looks like I'll have to pick that one up also.
    

    
    	Finally got Body Count's "Born Dead" CD ... my sister found it at
    	a mall music store.
    
    	After almost 1 complete listen, it's OK.  Not even close to being
    	as good as the 1st, but I'll give it another chance.
    

    
    	Well, I listened to it all the way through, twice ... and now I
    	know for sure that it's not as good as the 1st.
    
    	Just as heavy, and much darker ... but all the "fun" is missing,
    	like what they did with "Evil Dick" and "KKK B*tch".  Wailing
    	guitar solo on "Necessary Evil", but otherwise it's just kind of
    	"consistent".  Not a bad thing, but it still pales in comparison
    	to the debut.
    

    
    	I listened to Ice T's "Original Gangster" CD yesterday, and
    	on track 18 he's being "interviewed" by a female about the
    	claims that he was a sell-out to rock'n'roll.
    
    	Well, he went on to say that he was NOT selling out ... that
    	he doesn't like to divide the generic term "music" into dif-
    	ferent styles.  "Music is music.  If you only listen to 1
    	style then you're missing out on alot."
    
    	Then he went on to say that he had a side project called
    	Body Count and that an album was on the way [this was just
    	months before "Body Count" was released] ... and that he was
    	going to offer a sampling of the stuff they did.  And then
    	"On With the Body Count" kicked in.  Nice surprise.
    
    	"Original Gangster" isn't a bad album as far as rap goes ...
    	I'm not a huge fan of rap, owning maybe 3 rap CD's and not
    	listening to any of them too often [I don't count Vanilla
    	Ice or Tone Loc as rap ... they're more dance than anything].
    	But maybe it's Ice T's voice that makes a difference, and I
    	did find myself getting into it somewhat.
    
    	And this guy is no dummy, and makes alot of sense most of the
    	time.  Sure, he has his moments of "I'm a bad-ass black dude
    	so don't piss me off", but they are few and far between when
    	you compare this album to what you'd hear in the typical 1/2
    	hour slot of "MTV raps" [or whatever it's called].
    
    	And he says he doesn't like to be called "black" or "colored".
    	He refers to himself [and fellow "blacks"] as niggers.
    

    
    Speaking of Rap, does anybody know who does the Christmas song
    that Argyle plays for John McClane in "Die Hard..."  the one
    in the limo at the beginning of the movie....
    
    - Sean

    I think it was either RUN/DMC or the Fat Boys (PC- calorically
    challenged men)?  But the name of the tune eludes me...something like
    "X-mas in Harlem"????
    
    	J

                           Soundtrack details for
                              Die Hard (1988)

   * "SINGIN' IN THE RAIN"
     By Arthur Freed and Nacio Herb Brown
   * "WINTER WONDERLAND"
     By Felix Bernard and Dick Smith
>   * "CHRISTMAS IN HOLLIS"
>     By Joseph Simmons, Darryl McDaniels and Jason Mizell
>     Performed by RUN-D.M.C.
>     Courtesy of Profile Records, Inc.
   * "SKELETONS"
     Written and Performed by Stevie Wonder
     Courtesy of Motown Record Corp.
   * "LET IT SNOW! LET IT SNOW! LET IT SNOW!"
     By Sammy Cahn and Jule Styne
     Performed by Vaughn Monroe
     Courtesy of MCA Records

           Copyright � 1990-1996 The Internet Movie Database Ltd

    
    "Christmas in Hollis" is also on the "A Very Special Christmas"
    benefit album (the first one w/Red cover)
    
    /jen