Conference napalm::heavy_metal

     Simple put:
    
             Talent=Nothing
    
                  Unless you have record sales.
    
                          If you don't your not really worth marketing.
          No record sales=No band.
                   Frizkid
    

        Chris:
               IMNSHO------How good a bands name is,is judge by the certain
    person.
    
              DOWN THE IRONS!!!!
    
               {Insert a picture of a dumb dinosaur galloping into a huge 
    tar pit and NEVER coming out!}
    
                         Frizkid
    

    
    Friz, go back to sucking your thumb. You have a better future in it.
    
    Talent=Nothing indeed. We laugh at your very existance.

    >Talent=Nothing indeed.
    
    Friz has a point.  While Jani Lame is a pretty good songwriter, Warrant
    is a talentless band whos made a pretty solid career out of no talent.
    I know killer Berklee musicians who are playing in no-where Jazz bars
    for zero $$ denaro!
    
    Morale of the story...if you can't market yourself to the masses...forget 
    it!
    
    
    RE: Chris
    
    "Are you trying to say..."
    
    No.  What I'm trying to say is that I thought it pretty lofty of you to
    place such a judgement on a band's name and musical content when you 
    had just got done praising a band which fit your slam in another note.
    Catch my drift?

    
    
    Alright, you made your point, you think Maiden is done for...I don't!
    that's it...no more need for fuss.
    
    
    Chris

    Buck's right, marketing makes a band, not talant.  Warrent is a good
    example, so it Poision.  They do ok at writing catchy tunes, but none
    of them are wizards at playing their instruments.  They got a record
    company to publicize them to phenominal degrees and they are very
    popular (and rich) for it.
                                                            
    I've never heard Kik Tracee's music, but I do have to agree with the
    statement Chris made that the name sounds really stupid.
    
    gh

    
    Both make a band. Buck is wrong.
    
    You have to have good marketing, but once you have that you have to
    have good talent to back it up. Whether that be talent playing
    an instrument, or talent writing material, or even talent as far
    as showmanship...
    
    It takes both!

    re: /prc
    
    Perhaps you didn't see Poison on the MTV Video Music Awards...
    
    gh

    
    Poison has the talent to back it up, they just don't use it right.
    
    ...who knows, they could have been wasted.

    >Both make a band. Buck is wrong.
    
    Buck is not wrong...Buck has a degree in music business!
    ;^)
    
    Remember that episode on the Brady Bunch where Greg got a record deal?
    And he goes into the studio and records a vocal track with acoustic
    guitar...this real folky thing, and then he comes back after the mix
    and there is all this Hendrexesque distorted guitar and heavy drums
    on the tape, and Greg's voice is all effected out...  And the Record
    Co. hired these 20 screaming teenage girls to run into the studio and 
    tear off all his clothes?  Then they had this "groovy" image all
    planned out for him in these Modded out fringe clothes and a wig?
    
    THAT IS THE MUSIC BUSINESS!!!
    
    You sound like Greg...going in there with good intentions about playing
    HIS music and becoming a star...when in actuality it's the people with
    the money who have the plan for how you will be come a star.
    
    
    Bottom Line...there are people in this business who:
    
    a) Don't write any music at all
    b) Don't play on any of their music at all
    c) are ugly, but have the best beauticians in the world make them over
    
    and voila...a career is born!  
    
    
    Subsequently, if you (Pete or Friz) are going into the Music Biz with
    the attitudes that...
    
    a) I/my band have our own songs...we don't need/want people to write 
       for us
    b) I/we have my/our own style...no one will ever change that
    c) I/we have my/our own image...no one will ever change that
    d) We write our songs the way we want them to sound...no one will ever
       change them
    
    THEN YOU ARE IN THE WRONG BUSINESS!!!  Cuz the higher you get in the
    ladder, the less control you have over anything.  Those are just STD
    corporation facts.  When you joined Digital, you signed an agreement
    which basically said "if I create anything cool while working here at
    DEC, I hereby give all rights of said cool thing to Digital".  The
    same thing goes in the Music Biz.  Your record deal sez "I am an
    employee of X record company...i will do what they tell me...i will
    wear what they tell me...i will go where they tell me...anything
    I do for X company belongs to X comapny...X comapny gets *% of
    everything I make, etc. etc. etc."
    
    capice?

    
    If that was true than there wouldn't be such a thing as metal....
    
    Now I can't say the bands were telling the truth but I'd like to think
    so:
    
    Metallica
    Megadeth
    Slayer*
    Anthrax
    Exodus*
    Iron Maiden
    
    These bands haven't coincided with the *POP* movement.... especially
    the bands with a *, Exocus has never slowed down, not even for a
    ballad, and Slayer, yeah they get a lot of radio play...
    
    Buck, I'd like to think that the Music busi- NO, the METAL business is
    exactly what you say it isn't. I think that the music should be
    EVERYTHING, sure image helps, but that is far from # 1. I think maybe
    you are in the wrong business, try DANCE MUSIC...
    
    Chris.

    Taken offline...

    re: Chris
    
    If you believe that record companies didn't mandate how those bands
    sound then you're dreamin.  Maybe some of them had a sound that the
    record companies liked without major changes, who knows?
    
>    If that was true than there wouldn't be such a thing as metal....
    
    Just because it's something promoted as being anti-establishment,
    anti-social, or anti-dance_music, doesn't mean it's not something that
    can be contrived and MARKETED!
    
>    These bands haven't coincided with the *POP* movement.... especially
>    the bands with a *, Exocus has never slowed down, not even for a
>    ballad, and Slayer, yeah they get a lot of radio play... 
    
    Your logic is totally flawed.  You seem to think Buck's saying the
    record companies turn out ONLY dance music or music that appeals to
    *everyone*, that's not it!  If the record companies perceived a market
    for something, it has nothing to do with asking them to play slower or
    play something that will get them on the radio.  They're looking for
    total market saturation, not just radio market saturation.  Their
    business is MAKING MONEY, not pleasing people or making bands famous,
    they have only ONE interest.  
    
    I'm not saying those bands *necessarily* had to make drastic changes,
    but have you heard any of their stuff from before they got signed?  How
    much different did it sound?
    
    Notice all the interviews with Lars Ulrich of Metallica where he
    complained about the sampled drum sounds they MADE HIM USE on And
    Justice For All.  This is a perfect example.  He says the band was
    never happy with the sound of the album.  If they had so much say in
    it, then how did it get released?  Notice also that THAT album was the
    one they first got world wide fame and fortune with.  Interesting
    coincidence?  Nope...
    
    To a record company, a band is NOT in a position to bargain.  The band
    wants what the record company has to offer, not the other way around. 
    If a record company wants a thrash band that has a certain sort of
    sound and band X refuses to change to sound like they want, they're out
    the door and band Y's in the studio making that sound, 'cause there's a
    he!! of a lot more bands out there that wanna get signed then there are
    slots that companies have to sign them.  They take EXACTLY what they
    want and nothing else.
    
    gh
                         

    As stated in -1...    
    
    >Just because it's something promoted as being anti-establishment,
    >anti-social, or anti-dance_music, doesn't mean it's not something that
    >can be contrived and MARKETED!
    
    Read SEX PISTOLS.
    
    Where do you thnk they got that name?  Oh yeah...Johnny Rotten...Sid
    Vicious...where did those names come from?  Malcolm McClaron was the 
    marketing genious behind this band...marketed as a "f... the world"
    band.  They were loud, out of tune, snotty (literally), filthy, rude,
    into self torture...all aspects that would make society flinch. They
    sold millions...
    
    Village People were the same way...a bunch a nobody's funded by a
    marketer with a vision to satisfy a market niche.  They sold millions
    in the disco market.
    
    New Kids...same thing...they are the brain child of Maruice Starr.
    They don't write, they couldn't dance, they can't sing...but Maurice 
    wrote the songs...Maurice played or hired the band...Maurice recorded
    and mixed the songs to his sound...he hired choreohgraphers to teach
    them to dance and lip sync.  They were given remedial vocal lessons.
    In short, they had a look...everything else was worked over to make
    a marketable product.  New Kids are now the top grossing entertainers
    in the world.
    
    dats da facts...

    re: .14 (G_HOUSE)
    
    Amen and well said.
    
    It's so cliche to slam record companies.
    
    I think you have to be pragmatic about it.  Record companies are
    INVESTORS.  They take LARGE sums of money and invest them into
    bands.  It does not strike me as unreasonable that they would
    want the largest return and that they would also want a say in
    how their money is being spent.
    
    If you want someone to support "art" that's called "charity".  
    
    I tend to doubt that anyone in here would do things much differently
    than record companies if it was THEIR money.

    re: .16 (db)        
    
    I agree with you.  I didn't say it was necessarily bad for record
    companies to protect their investments.  I certainly understand why
    they do it.  Yet on the other hand, as someone who enjoys making music,
    it's rather depressing to think about things in this light.  Reality,
    yes.  Pleasant, maybe not.
    
    Somehow good music still manages to squeeze out sometimes.  I've been
    hearing some very creative things that *I* wouldn't personally thought
    would have a large market, but they still got out.  But I wonder
    sometimes if we aren't missing out on some of the best music we could
    hear simply because some record executive doesn't like it personally or
    doesn't understand that there might be a market for it.
    
    I guess that's why there are independant labels.  It's just hard to
    figure out what you'll like and not from the indies, or even what's
    available sometimes.
    
    gh

    We agree completely Greg.
    
    To expand on what you're saying (I think), it just isn't reasonable
    to expect record companies to act differently than they do.
    
    At the risk of resorting to a cliche, "it's the system".

    ....in many cases the   A & R person that "discovers" the band acts
    as a "champion" for the band to the big bad record execs....many of
    them spend "years" believing in a band and fighting for them within
    their own companies to get them recognized, established etc....they
    provide example after example to the execs of the "market" that their 
    band reaches...as the  A & R personn establishes their own track
    records with "winning" bands they gain respect and a voice within the
    record company and the next band they believe in may get in a little
    easier...easiest measure of success...$$$$ brought into the company on
    a first record....how many bands do you knwo that are dumped after one
    record that didn't sell well because basically the company didn't put
    their resources behind them.....many i'll bet....ok..don't shoot til
    you see the whites of my eyes....../k

    -1
    
    Eggs-actly!
    
    
    I know this dude...Art (not his real name...it's been changed to
    protect the naive), whos been working his butt off for years and
    years trying to obtain a record contract.  Art spends lots of
    time making flyers and cassette labels on his PC, spends lots of 
    $$$ on high-class demo recordings, spends lots of time hounding
    club owners to book his band, etc.  This is all well and fine 
    but what Art's main problem is is insight.  Art thinks that once he
    has a record contract in hand, he can sit back, throw his feet up,
    crack open an ice cold Bud, and relax and watch the cash flow in.
    
    W A K E   U P   A R T !!!
    
    When you get a contract, that'\s when the work REALLY begins!  Art
    doesn't understand the concept of recoupables.  You make you're first
    album, and a video for the single.  BAM -- You are now in debt to your
    record company for 1.5 million dollars.  You got 1.5M?  Doubt it...hit
    the road...tour...sell tix...sell t-shirts...all in an attempt to sell
    albums.  Once the record company is paid off, then the next person in
    line for cash is the Producer, whos been waiting to receive his $$$ for
    doing your album for the last 10 months, cuz  that's how long it took
    to pay the record company off!  After the producer is paid off, then
    you start getting rolaties on the lp ... oh yeah, provided you were
    smart enough to get in on the publishing rights.
    
    Anyone remember when Tom Petty pulled a fast one on his first record
    company by filing Bankruptcy?  Classic case of how to get out of a bad
    deal, but he didn't get off without a fight!  Also, see Boston for 
    addl record company lawsuits.

re: .20 (Buck)

>    When you get a contract, that'\s when the work REALLY begins!  Art
>    doesn't understand the concept of recoupables.  You make you're first
>    album, and a video for the single.  

True. But you forgot to mention that there's a decent chance the album will
never even get released! Labels sign and record lots of bands, and there 
really are a lot of them they don't even bother to release to the public.

> BAM -- You are now in debt to your record company for 1.5 million dollars. 

Well, more realistically, its about 10% of that amount. Rarely will the 
recording budget for a new band go over 100K. And most beginning video 
budgets are in the $30K region. But the parts about being in debt are
absolutely true (well, sorta - you owe it in royalties, but if the album
stiffs, you don't have to pay it back, the company just takes the loss and
drops you).

BTW, HM bands tend to make more money from merchandising than they do from
album sales.....

alan

>BTW, HM bands tend to make more money from merchandising than they do from
>album sales.....
    
    That would be POSEUR bands, right?
    ;^)

    Another reality:
    
              Certain record companies will sign a band and then drop them
       just for a tax right off.
               Sad but true............
           In this "Business"( and it IS a business) you have to work your
    @ss off!  Just because you have a contract doesn't mean sh*t to them.
    
           Example: VAIN
    
               They WERE a good hard rock band from L.A. doing pretty
    decent...They releashed their first album.  They think every thing is
    peachy with the record company.....They go into the studio and make
    their second LP and the record company hears it and say "Sorry!"
     BAM...They're dropped.
     
            Now they have to pay the record company back and pay for the
    rights to the album back.  
    
            They didn't BEAT THE BULLET......(One of their songs).
    
                         Frizkid
    
    
            

    
    Yet another reason why I'm shopping in Europe.

    re.4
    
         Buck,  How can you say Warrant is a talentless band!!  I just
    
       saw them and they played and sang really well!!! At the end of it
     
       all Jani Lame said that they use no Sequencers, tape or drum
    
       machines!! They are definitely posers but a good band!! IMHO.
    
                                                   skip/bob/bald

    RE:  Skip
    
    Because I know FOR A FACT that the DO use tapes and sequencers when
    they play live!!
    
    Also, I know for a fact that they have studio musicians come in to
    do the guitar solos.
    
    
    That's why

            I think your wrong about the tapes and sequencers......
      But I know the guitar solos on the first album where done by a studio
      guy.
             Pete:(not to start an arguement but) The business is pretty
    much the same all over the world.  Record company still want money and
    a marketing product.  Show a company that doesn't and I'll show you a 
    a failing record company.
    
                           Frizkid
    

    
    re: .28
    
    I know it's the same, I'm not clueless about the industry. I already
    have an independent album with my name on it and used to know someone 
    very much on the inside of the industry.
    
    In Europe there's not as much cut throat competition, and they are
    much more willing to sign an American band, especially as heavy as
    we are. I'm probably not going to even bother with American labels
    until later, except maybe Combat, etc...
    
    /prc

       I wasn't saying you were clueless.....
    
           Combat?
    
               That's a bad as saying the P word....8)!
    
                       Frizkid
    

    
    We need to go for the labels that sign heavier bands. The other
    labels like Atlantic and Geffen are harder to get through with
    the kind of stuff we do.

re: Friz

> Go for Geffen or Elektra. Say no to MCA!!!!!

You gotta keep up with the industry, dude! Geffen is now part of MCA!!!!

alan

      Oh SH*T!!!!
    
                Where did this happen?  
        That's a big 8(!!!!!
    
               I guess we'll never sign to Geffen......
    
                MCA is notrious for sign bands for one album and dropping
    them!
    
                     Frizkid
    

    >MCA is notrious for sign bands for one album and dropping them!
    
    ...or two, in the case of The Rings (My all-time favorite band!!)
    

    I don`t care what anyone says....if someone offered me the chance to
    record an album,do a major tour,press interviews,video`s,give up my
    job,i`d jump at the chance. 
    
    You only live once,and if it means ending up with 50,000 quid (or
    dollars) in debt 5 years later,so what? At least you`ll have the
    satisfaction of knowing you had a real good shot at it.
    
    Joe Strummer.
    

    Here is some info FYI to anyone who curious as to the workings of the
    music biz, record contracts, (percieved) band power, etc.
    
    
    NOTE: This info is all true...and is currently being lived out on a
    daily basis by a friend of a friend's band.
    
    ***********************************************************************
    
    Band X (we'll call them for now), from Germany, was sign by EMI records
    after a successful showcase, which some of EMI's A&R people happened to
    be at.  Band X, who are a 4-man hard rock act ala AC/DC / KIX, were
    signed and re-located to LA to record their first album.
    
    After re-locating to LA, the band began pre-production for the album
    with some producers, selected and hired by the record company.  During
    pre-production, the drummer for the band developed tendonitis in one
    of his hands.  BOOM -- drummer is fired from band by record company and
    flown back to Germany almost instantly.  The record company (NOT the
    band) went off and found a replacement.  The guy they found was from
    NYC.  The company re-located him within days to LA.  The rest of the
    band did not even get to meet their new band member until the next
    scheduled rehearsal.  
    
    Below are some orders issued to the band by the record company:
    
    * lead guitarist was to dye his hair black (it was sort of red, record
      company didn't like it)
    * another member was given a month to lose 10lbs, or he was out
    * the record company issued the band their working name...Mxx Sxxxx
      (fwiw, the band does not like it, but when the people paying your 
       bills like it, not much you can do...I did not print it due to 
       legal implications, but believe me, it's a lousy name!!)
    
    The record comapny then brought in a choreographer.  Every song and
    every move of their stage show was to be choreographed by this person.
    And the band was expected to memorize each and every move.  Also, all
    the background vocals for the band were professionally recorded and
    sampled, and would be played by via samples during their live show.
    Part of the band's choreography was to learn to effectively lip sync
    the vocal parts to the songs!!
    
    In their spare time, the record company makes arrangements for Band X
    (now called Mxx Sxxxx) to make appearances at various private parties
    and functions in LA to meet and get acquianted with the area's top
    rockers (Motley Crue, Guns n Roses, Ozzy, etc.).
    
    **********************************************************************
    
    Well, that's the basic gist of it.  Again, this is just FYI to anyone
    insterested.  Earlier in this string of notes, it was percieved by
    some people that a band had a lot more creative power over it's
    destiny in the music business in terms of their contract.  I very much
    disagreed, taking the stance that when you sign a contract, you
    basically sign away all creative elements to other people.  I think the
    above information provides a better perspective on the 'real world',
    and puts the former discussion in this string into a clearer light.
    
    
    B.

	Gee, and I thought my manager had some high demands.  It is truly
	amazing/ridiculous.  I would imagine the number of bands that do
	get complete (with nothing being absolute most likely) artistic
	control contracts are small.

	- Jim 

    >    I'll bet Combat records aren't as bad as that!
                                              
    Don't kid yourself.  Espicially these days, in hard financial times,
    where every dollar means much more than it did years ago, companies, be
    them small, large, or independent, are only going with 'sure bets'.
    Also, they're keeping track of their money spent and making sure it is
    going to be lucrative for them (aka, make them money back).
    
    What -3 was trying to show was the current industry trends.  Basically,
    any band that thinks when they get a deal, all creative terms and
    conditions are going to be decided by them (the band) had better wake
    up and smell the coffee.  That's just not a reality.  Personally, I
    think it should be a consideration on the part of the band when
    shopping for a deal.  Because you'll never find a deal if you keep
    looking for one that will cater to your wants and needs.
    
    
    As Garth Algar would say "Live in the NOW"
                                                               

    I imagine that the Christian labels are demanding in different ways. 
    They certainly have standards to uphold, but in terms of beliefs and in
    terms of the quality of the product which they must produce.
    
    gh

    How would a Christian lable look upon something, say, like pierced
    nipples and such 'odd' image things??

	In some cases I like the idea of small independent labels working
	to together with each other and more importantly retaining their 
	indie some what inherent traits namely enjoyment of the music while 
	being distributed by an appropriate major who can get the record in
	the stores in timely manner as well as promotion which is usually nil
	or very limited.

	Even if your goal isn't mass appeal if you can't get your records 
	in stores or to the people who want them be it relatively small
	numbers or droves then it's pretty poor as is often the case.  Just 
	a short time back I recall hearing a radio station that were just now 
	getting their copy of a record that some predominately indie-stocked stores 
	have had for literally months now.

	- Jim

Let's return, shall we, to a LEGENDARY discussion in this note:
    
================================================================================
Note 807.2            Talent/Marketing/Music Biz discussion              2 of 44
COMET::FRISBYA "Wake me when it's over"              11 lines   7-OCT-1991 14:05
                   -< They are done forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Chris:
               IMNSHO------How good a bands name is,is judge by the certain
    person.
    
              DOWN THE IRONS!!!!
    
               {Insert a picture of a dumb dinosaur galloping into a huge 
    tar pit and NEVER coming out!}
    
                         Frizkid
 
================================================================================
Note 807.3            Talent/Marketing/Music Biz discussion              3 of 44
VCSESU::VCSESU::COOK "Stormtrooper of Death"          4 lines   7-OCT-1991 14:34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Friz, go back to sucking your thumb. You have a better future in it.
    
    Talent=Nothing indeed. We laugh at your very existance.       

    we miss ya, friz!

    
    Iron Maiden Rules!
    
    

    Iron Maiden = dinosaur bones in the tar pit

    
    Sha... as if.
    
    

    Woah, dude!  CLASSIC Friz and Pete, in the same note!!!  You really
    know how to dredge 'em up!
    
    Yeah, I think that was the origin of the "tar pit" reference...
    
    gh

 >   Talent=Nothing indeed. We laugh at your very existance.       
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    aahhhhhh, another legenday expression we must use to the fullest
    extent!
    
    
    |KS|
    (Who laughs at your very existence!)
    
    

             <<< LANDO::ADMIND:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HEAVY_METAL.NOTE;2 >>>
                                -< HEAVY_METAL >-
================================================================================
Note 807.24           Talent/Marketing/Music Biz discussion             24 of 51
VCSESU::MOSHER::COOK "DEC sells, but who's buying?"   2 lines   9-OCT-1991 09:45
                        -< Things aren't as cut throat >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Yet another reason why I'm shopping in Europe.

    Like I say, CLASSIC Pete!