Conference napalm::heavy_metal

    so is this for real?

    'Pril... catch a clue.  The person put that in as part of a discussion
    about valuing differences celebration.  You know as well as I do that
    enjoying heavy metal music is not a "popular" difference, such as
    homosexuality, so it would never be offically valued as the note
    suggests.  
    
    Greg

    
    It's a joke.
    
    I can't wait to see the responses in DIGITAL.

    
    	And the base note stated that the announcement was ficticious
    	which we should all have known anyhow (excluding 'Pril that is!).
    	
    	- Jim

    GEEEZ, you guys.  do ya think ya could be any more brutal?!?
    
    I guess I read too damn fast.  Doesn't all sink in I guess...
    
    'pril (graspin')

    
    
    	And my birthday is November 31st too.
                          

    RE: .0
    
    Although your posting is prefaced with the statement "...in all
    seriousness", I find it very hard to take seriously.  As a core member
    of the PKO-cluster Valuing Diversity group, I find your posting to be
    chastising, and challenging of the Valuing Diversity goals and
    standards.  It's quite obvious from the content of your memo that you
    do not value diversity...your memo's "so there" attitude showed this
    (an attitude which only serves to build walls, not break them down!).
    
    As far as your statement of "Same picture, different colors", I
    hardly think so...  When was the last time you had the crap beat
    out of you for listening to HM?  When was the last time one of your HM
    friends was killed for his musical preference?  When was the last time
    you were kicked out of your apartment for playing HM music?  When
    was the last time you were fired when your mgmt found out you were
    a metalhead?
    
    Regards,
    Buck

    
    So let's value my diversity. Let's have a German-American day.
    
    If not, it;s discrimination pure and simple.

    
    Also, why isn't there an Asian-American Awareness day? Hmmmm?????

    >Also, why isn't there an Asian-American Awareness day? Hmmmm?????
    
    You must be one of those people that deletes the On-Line Valuing
    DIfferences calendar as soon as they receive it...
    
    FYI Pete, Asian Awareness (-American, and otherwise) MONTH (not Day!)
    occured last July!!  There were several events sponsored by
    site-specific VD groups to honor the event and raise awareness.
    
    If you would like to see a German (-American, or otherwise) Awareness
    month...join a VD Core Group and organize one!  Walk the talk, bud!!
    
    Cheers..

>    As far as your statement of "Same picture, different colors", I
>    hardly think so...  When was the last time you had the crap beat
>    out of you for listening to HM?  When was the last time one of your HM
>    friends was killed for his musical preference?  When was the last time
>    you were kicked out of your apartment for playing HM music?  When
>    was the last time you were fired when your mgmt found out you were
>    a metalhead?
    
    Sounds like the persecution Christians and Blacks go through.

Re: <<< Note 805.7 by CAVLRY::BUCK "ACE Regional Rep" >>>

.7>Although your posting is prefaced with the statement "...in all
.7>seriousness", I find it very hard to take seriously.  As a core member
.7>of the PKO-cluster Valuing Diversity group, I find your posting to be
.7>chastising, and challenging of the Valuing Diversity goals and
.7>standards.  It's quite obvious from the content of your memo that you
.7>do not value diversity...your memo's "so there" attitude showed this
.7>(an attitude which only serves to build walls, not break them down!).

If the VaD goals involve the promotion or awaress of lifestyle-oriented
issues then yes, I have a problem with that. I applaud VaD goals and
efforts of equal treatment and fairiness for those of race, ethnic
background, handicapped, etc.

My posting in HUMANE::DIGITAL was to show that Gay/Bi/Lesbian issues
certainly don't fall into a catagory that should be addressed as an
'awareness day' at Digital- just like HM would have no place there.

.7>As far as your statement of "Same picture, different colors", I hardly
.7>think so...  When was the last time you had the crap beat out of you for
.7>listening to HM?  When was the last time one of your HM friends was
.7>killed for his musical preference?  When was the last time you were
.7>kicked out of your apartment for playing HM music?  When was the last
.7>time you were fired when your mgmt found out you were a metalhead?
    
Are the above events occuring at Digital? If so, Digital has in place a
policy to handle such discrimination issues.

My basic belief is that Digital has no business in lifestyle issues (such
as Gay/Lesbian/Bi sexual matters, Heavy Metal music, automobile worship,
etc.)

Sorry if I caused a rukus in the H_M notesfile...

Lee Roth

    AUTOMOBILE WORSHIP???
    
    
    
    THATS ONE I HAVENT HEARD :*)
    i think that goes with Heavy_metal tho'
    
    		WENDY O'
    
    

}}  Sorry if I caused a rukus in the H_M notesfile...

    Heavy Metal=rukus!  
    

>If the VaD goals involve the promotion or awaress of lifestyle-oriented
>issues then yes, I have a problem with that. I applaud VaD goals and
>efforts of equal treatment and fairiness for those of race, ethnic
>background, handicapped, etc.
    
    What do you mean by "lifestyle-oriented issues"?!?  I bet you think the
    LesBiGay Awareness thing is about "shoving their lifestyles down others
    throats?" or "Lets stick their face in this and watch them squirm?" 
    It's neither, actually.  It's to show that your fellow co-workers, and
    people in general of G/L/B orientation ARE PEOPLE TOO! In fact, they
    are just like you in every facet of life except one... sexual
    orientation.  Is that such a hard concept to grasp?
    
    Your last sentence is appauling that you condone VD work for any
    minority group except the G/L/B community.  As a VD member, I suggest
    you attend the G/L/B Awareness Seminar in MRO to challenge yourself to
    the difference!  
    
    >My posting in HUMANE::DIGITAL was to show that Gay/Bi/Lesbian issues
    >certainly don't fall into a catagory that should be addressed as an
    >'awareness day' at Digital- just like HM would have no place there.
    
    G/L/B issues most CERTAINLY do warrant an awareness day at Digital! For
    one, Digital has G/L/B employees working in the corporation. And since
    Digital strongly encourages teamwork within it's orgaizations...how can
    you work with someone if you have personal hangups about them?  Your
    bias will effect the quality of work produced in the team.  Valuing
    Diversity was formed to bring issues most people would just prefer to
    sweep under the carpet out into the open for discussion.  Quite often
    these are not "pretty" issues (ie - We have a discussion arranged for
    Natl Women's Month on survivors of incest!).  As an employee of
    Digital, it's your responsibility to understand and have a good working
    rapport with your co-workers.  This is what VD is all about...not
    trying to give certain minority groups free advertising in the company
    or whatever... 
    
    Do you think Digital has these policies in place for nothing?  If you
    feel so strongly about it, why don't you voice your opinions in a memo
    to Ken Olsen?

    
    I read the entire conversation in DIGITAL, and I think that some of
    .0's notes there had many good points.  Digital cafeterias just aren't
    the place for this.
    
    

    
    ps buck, when we were at lunch with sue that day in nj, i was just
    trying to picture some of the things going through your head in
    reaction to the things she was saying :').
    
    

    Well said, Buck.
    Peter

    
    
    I'm with you Buck!

    
    RE: Rob and lunch with Sue in NJ...
    
    GEEEESH...was I *that* obvious?!?!?  ;^)  ;^)
    
    Sure, a few of her comments touched some hot buttons, but instead of
    reacting, I just thought about it, rationalized it, and went on with
    the conversation.  
    
    Buck, who valued Sue's difference in context

re: <<< Note 805.15 by CAVLRY::BUCK "ACE Regional Rep" >>>

.15>It's neither, actually.  It's to show that your fellow co-workers, and
.15>people in general of G/L/B orientation ARE PEOPLE TOO! In fact, they
.15>are just like you in every facet of life except one... sexual
.15>orientation.  Is that such a hard concept to grasp?

Not at all. I concluded long ago that G/B/L are people and respect and
treat them as such. I did not need a VD presentation to help me to reach
that conclusion either.
    
.15>Your last sentence is appauling that you condone VD work for any
.15>minority group except the G/L/B community.  As a VD member, I suggest
.15>you attend the G/L/B Awareness Seminar in MRO to challenge yourself to
.15>the difference!  

If I thought DEC would foot the bill to fly me from Ohio to MRO I would
do it. But that would be condoning additional waste of Digital money.

.15>G/L/B issues most CERTAINLY do warrant an awareness day at Digital! For
.15>one, Digital has G/L/B employees working in the corporation. And since
.15>Digital strongly encourages teamwork within it's orgaizations...how can
.15>you work with someone if you have personal hangups about them?  Your
.15>bias will effect the quality of work produced in the team.  Valuing
.15>Diversity was formed to bring issues most people would just prefer to
.15>sweep under the carpet out into the open for discussion.  Quite often
.15>these are not "pretty" issues (ie - We have a discussion arranged for
.15>Natl Women's Month on survivors of incest!).

Digital has metalheads working here too... does that warrant an awareness
day for them as well? What about the people out there that have hangups
about metal music? How can you work with someone if you have personal
hangups about them?

.15>As an employee of
.15>Digital, it's your responsibility to understand and have a good working
.15>rapport with your co-workers.

And that is what I have now. And I *DO NOT* have any knowledge about
their sexual orientation. I treat them as people.

.15>...not
.15>trying to give certain minority groups free advertising in the company
.15>or whatever... 
    
It sure looks like advertising to me. I would think that the VD folks
would be content to encourage good working relationships, fairness, etc.
and be race/gender/sexual preference neutral... but based on the event in
MRO it seems to be a showcase for the G/B/L lifestyle (whatever that is).
Speakers there to share their 'coming out' experiences but yet you say
it's not free advertising? I'm not that naive.

.15>Do you think Digital has these policies in place for nothing?

Please define 'these policies'. I am aware that Digital strives to not
discriminate based on race, age, sex, sexual orientation, etc. But is
there a policy of specific education of G/B/L lifestyle/issues? I doubt
it.

.15>If you
.15>feel so strongly about it, why don't you voice your opinions in a memo
.15>to Ken Olsen?

It is in the works.

Basically, I have a problem with any group that shouts from the top of
its lungs "I AM DIFFERENT! TREAT ME THE SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE" while all
along I have been treating them just like anyone else.

Is person XYZ gay? I don't care, let's just do our job as best we can.
Isn't that the objective?

Lee Roth

    >If the VaD goals involve the promotion or awaress of lifestyle-oriented
    >issues then yes, I have a problem with that. 
    
    First off, I doubt they are "promoting" a lifestyle. 
    
    Gays are sensitive to "promoting lifestyles" because they get
    heterosexual lifestyles promoted down their throats every day. In my
    experience (many gay friends), they don't want ANY particular lifestyle
    "promoted". 
    
    Unless you understand ALL the issues that gays, blacks, or whatever
    have you are not in ANY position to dictate whether or not
    "awareness" is needed.
    
    My own belief about the purpose of these things is to educate people
    on the sensitivities of people living these lifestyles that aren't
    always obvious to others.
    
    For example, I used to be in the habit of making casual jokes about
    AIDS.  A lot of people do this.  It never occurred to me that many
    of my gay friends lost close friends to AIDS and that made them
    sensitive to those kinds of jokes, just as my SO, who recently lost
    her mother to a horrible death from cancer might be to cancer jokes.
    
    So unless you think you know all the sensitivities, or you think promoting
    sensitivity is a bad idea, or you are something like a racist
    or a gay-basher, I don't see where you are coming from.
    
    	Dave Blickstein

>Not at all. I concluded long ago that G/B/L are people and respect and
>treat them as such. I did not need a VD presentation to help me to reach
>that conclusion either.
 
    Great.  Unfortunately, as you can tell from reading the replies to
    1616.* in DIGITAL, many people do need a presentation.  Their biases
    are quite clear in those replies.

>If I thought DEC would foot the bill to fly me from Ohio to MRO I would
>do it. But that would be condoning additional waste of Digital money.

    VD Core Groups exist around the country.  Contact one in your area on
    doing a G/L/B awareness day, I'm sure they would be more than happy to
    oblige.

>Digital has metalheads working here too... does that warrant an awareness
>day for them as well? What about the people out there that have hangups
>about metal music? How can you work with someone if you have personal
>hangups about them?

    But has there been a need for education surrounding the orientation of
    Metal music lovers?  VD Presentations are often based on a supply/demand
    basis, or to coincide with a national day.  For instance, we choose to
    center of Black History Month around Dr. Martin Luthur King Jr.'s 
    birthday.
    
>It sure looks like advertising to me. I would think that the VD folks
>would be content to encourage good working relationships, fairness, etc.
>and be race/gender/sexual preference neutral... but based on the event in
>MRO it seems to be a showcase for the G/B/L lifestyle (whatever that is).

    Good question, what *is* the G/L/B lifestyle??  Stereotypically, its
    hanging out in cruise bars and parks all night seeking as many sexual
    partners as possible, all the while abusing drugs and generally being
    hedonistic.  The few gay people I know lead lifestyles NOTHING like
    the stereotype.  Actually, they lead more "normal" lifestyles than my
    own.  I don't see where the 'lifestyle' issue is a source for concern
    (if anything, the presentation may serve to diminish the stereotypes).

>Please define 'these policies'. I am aware that Digital strives to not
>discriminate based on race, age, sex, sexual orientation, etc. But is
>there a policy of specific education of G/B/L lifestyle/issues? I doubt it.

    Then you should try and learn more about the Corporate Valuing
    Diversity program, as their job is providing information around
    issues of discriminate based on race, age, sex, sexual orientation,
    disability, etc.

>It is in the works.

    Great...glad to hear it.
    
    
    Regards,
    Buck
    PKO VD Memeber
                  

    	I don't understand (and no I haven't read all the
    	replies here - just bits and pieces) why this has
    	escalated to the level it has....
    
    	Personally, nobody is trying to shove this Awareness
    	Day (or any other) down your throat so if you're
    	interested in attending then do so.
    
    	If you're not interested, then don't go.  What's the
    	big deal????  
    
	I mean - if I wanted to find out more about Black History
    	or Hispanics or Crawfish Pie... I'd go.  If I don't
    	feel comfortable with it or don't wish to attend, I 
    	wouldn't...
    
    	tigg~~~~ failing to understand the commotion. )8

I'm with Tigga.  Whats the big deal ??

I mean I VD...    I figure people are people.  If I have a nasty opinion
about someone, it's because they deserve it - not because of their hair color,
length, sexual orientation, skin whatever.  People is people, and ALL people
can be d*cks regardless.

I do tend to think DEC over-reacts to somethings though.  Perhaps gay people
would like to be left alone, and don't want an awareness week ??  I dunno.

jc (Who has a real close friend who is gay and doesn't give a crap about
    his sexual preference, nor does he care that I don't care.  :)

    I think Lee's whole point is that he doesn't care what someone's sexual
    preference is, he just doesn't like the idea of using Digital's
    corporate resources for an education program about g/l/b.  This is a
    tense time for this company and it bothers me that our stock prices are
    rock bottom while we're sponsoring lifestyle  education programs which
    do not tangibly contribute to helping improve this situation.
    
    If corporate resources are not being used to plan and put this on (and
    that includes employees work time that could be used for business work
    instead), then I have no problem with it.
    
    If this is his point, then I agree.  I could care less what someone I
    work with does outside of work as long as it doens't affect me.  I'm
    not going to treat them any differently because of it.  I just  think
    corporate resources should be directed to the problems the company is
    having making money, especially the way things are right now. The same
    goes for all those other programs, Black Awareness, Hispanic Awareness,
    etc.  I have good friends from a great many minority groups and their
    minority status has absolutely NOTHING to do with how I perceive them.
    
    gh                                                                    

    
    re: .22
    
    Hey Dave, what are you doing here?  What a strange sight that was :')
    
    I agree with greg and that's what it sounded to me like .0's problems
    were.  dec resources being used for this.
    
    

    The goal isn't merely education.  The goal is to make digital a nice
    place to work for ALL people.
    
    Is that worth spending money on?
    
    What you may not be "aware" of is that just as an absence of ramps
    make Digital a harder place for the handicapped to work, there are
    also things that create various kinds of barriers and difficulties
    for OTHER kinds of minorities.
    
    THese programs are intended to make Digital a less hostile place to
    these minorities.  The benefits (aside from the intangible benefits)
    are that we keep our employees happy and that we attract talent.

    Re: Lee and Greg
    
    You guys hit the nail on the head!

    db hit the nail on the head!

    I have no problem with what you're saying Dave, and that's a real nice
    thought and all, but it seems to me that the people most likely to make
    this an unpleasant place to work for a homosexual employee will be the
    most unlikely to attend such a program.  It's not going to attract the
    audience of those needing education in the subject because the simple
    fact that they need education is what will keep most of them from
    attending!
    
    Prejudice is a heavily ingrained thing for those that believe that way
    and I don't believe that a simple "awareness day" is going to do
    anything whatsoever improve that.  In fact, it may actually make things
    more difficult for those concerned, as it may make those that have a
    true hatred for them show this more openly then they might have before.
    
>    The goal isn't merely education.  The goal is to make digital a nice
>    place to work for ALL people.
>    
>    Is that worth spending money on?
    
    When the company's at it's lowest point financially?  Seems like doing
    something to make the company financially STABLE would make this a FAR
    nicer place to work at then it is right now.  Everyone I know seems
    totally paranoid and stressed out by all the layoffs, stock price drops,
    take-over rumors, and management pressure to MAKE MONEY!
    
    If the company were in good shape then perhaps it would be worthwhile
    to try and improve moral for minority employees, but it seems from the
    responses in the DIGITAL notesfile, that the attempt to improve
    conditions for some employees is also making conditions seem worse to
    others.
    
    Greg

    
    Hey Greg, I hit my head on your nail!
    
    

>    I have no problem with what you're saying Dave, and that's a real nice
>    thought and all, but it seems to me that the people most likely to make
>    this an unpleasant place to work for a homosexual employee will be the
>    most unlikely to attend such a program.  It's not going to attract the
>    audience of those needing education in the subject because the simple
>    fact that they need education is what will keep most of them from
>    attending!
    
    It's true about those people who need the education the most.  
    
    However, my managers have been sent to some of these meetings and none
    of them are rascists, gay-bashers or anything like that.  All of them
    (to the best of my knowledge) try to be sensitive to special needs.
    
    And yet they all came back exclaiming about needs and sensitivities
    that they were not aware of (such as the casual AIDS references I
    refered to) and would never have thought of.
    
    I'm ready to believe that such programs CAN have substantive benefit
    even if those attending are only those with good intentions.
    My managers have said this (You want names? I'll give them to you).
    
    Maybe you should do as Buck suggests and attend one.  You seem to think
    that they can not be of value without having first hand experience.
    
>    If the company were in good shape then perhaps it would be worthwhile
>    to try and improve moral for minority employees, but it seems from the
>    responses in the DIGITAL notesfile, that the attempt to improve
>    conditions for some employees is also making conditions seem worse to
>    others.
    
    Greg, are you willing to make a public statement that any/all of the 
    following things that make Digital a nicer place to work should be
    done away with in times like these?:
    
    	o Non-work related noting
    	o The Canobie Lake outings
    	o n-year Award dinners
    	o Digital sponsored activities such as sports leagues
    	o Digital Heath Centers (weight rooms/aerobics, etc.)
    
    And is your conviction that these should be suspended deep enough that
    I may quote you in other notesfiles?

    
    
    			I'm not Prejudice.......
    
    
    
    
    I hate everybody the same ;^) 

    Dave,

>    Maybe you should do as Buck suggests and attend one.  You seem to think
>    that they can not be of value without having first hand experience.

    Maybe I should.  But my point was not that nobody would benefit from
    such a a presentation, but that those that cause the most problems for
    other employees would not benefit.  Someone that cares about people and
    has compassion in their heart is not going to be causing the kind of
    problems that Buck described, such as beating someone up or getting
    someone fired because of how they choose to live their life outside of
    work.  

    Yes, as you've stated with your example about the casual remarks about
    AIDS and such, someone *can* unwittingly hurt someone's feelings, but I
    consider this relatively minor compared to someone who *intentionally*
    berates the same person and destroys the work atmosphere with their
    loud exclamations and actions based on discrimination.

    But on the other hand, if I say that I don't support putting on these
    presentations, wouldn't my attending one conflict with my beliefs?  8^)
    (since you're catching my contradictions today)

>    Greg, are you willing to make a public statement that any/all of the 
>    following things that make Digital a nicer place to work should be
>    done away with in times like these?:
>    
>    	o Non-work related noting
>    	o The Canobie Lake outings
>    	o n-year Award dinners
>    	o Digital sponsored activities such as sports leagues
>    	o Digital Heath Centers (weight rooms/aerobics, etc.)

    Somehow I knew someone would bring this up when I wrote that.  I
    suppose I'd like to address these individually.  Yes, I do think those
    things on the list which require extraneous outlays of money should be
    suspended.  I see no reason to suspend those that are already
    established and don't require extra expenditures, such as employee
    interest noting and existing exercise rooms.  Yes I would suspend
    things like the site picnics (to places like Canobie Lake and such),
    awards dinners, and sports leagues.

    Of course there is a danger in discontinuing existing benefits.  People
    grow accustomed to what they have and often will not accept less even
    though there are very good reasons for it.  I don't know all the
    answers, I wouldn't advocate things that would kill employee moral
    either, it's a valuable intangible commodity.  However, if *I* were
    running a business I wouldn't do things that would jeopardize my
    business to make my employees happy.  One would never expect a big
    award dinner at a small company a year that the company lost a
    substantial amount of money.

>    And is your conviction that these should be suspended deep enough that
>    I may quote you in other notesfiles?
   
    Quote me wherever you like, but don't misquote me or quote me out of
    context.  I know you well enough that I don't think you'd do that, but
    I just thought I'd mention it, since it's easy subtly change the
    meaning of what someone said in repeating it, especially with a
    sensitive issue such as this.  I would appreciate you letting me know
    where you quoted me and what point you intended to make by using the
    quote (especially since it seems we disagree on this issue).

    The main point I was trying to make was that these are hard times and
    this company needs to be doing things to improve it's financial
    position.  It doesn't make sense to be increasing (or maintaining)
    spending in nonessentual areas when we are in this situation.

    Greg
                                                                 

    Like most people in this conference I do not like to see discrimination
    of any sort, but there have been occasions when I have made jokes about
    many differing ethnic/sexual/social subjects.
    
    Last week I complained because Flip stitched me up.  It wasn't so much
    the fact I was in a gay bar, it was the fact I didn't know untill after
    I had been in the place for an hour or so.  The topics of conversation
    that night would not have been appreciated had they been overheard, by
    the majority of people in the bar, and in this instance I was part of a
    minority group.
    
    I would assimilated the feeling of being in a place like that, to one
    of us (metalheads) walking in to a dance club, expecting it to be a
    normal bar, and feeling very much out of place.
    
    I have no negative feelings in general about any ethnic/sexual
    orientartion/race issues, but find it disturbing when I am in the
    minority group.
    
    I cannot think of one location in the UK that has a VaD group,
    (certainly not in a small location like EDA) and I do not see a very
    large need for it.  What I do think, (specifically for the UK) is that
    we need to address the UK management style, which *seems* to be, have
    short hair, attend all the right functions, be seen with the right
    people.  I take extreme offence about this, but it will never change.
    
    I like the idea behind .0, I simply think it is totally impracticble.
    
    The thought of any minority group being given presedence over any other
    is appauling.  How many different race's work for DIGITAL? I couldn't
    answer that.  How many differing views on Sexuality? Not very many. 
    Someone asked the question, have any of your friends been killed
    because of thier sexual preferance ? NO! but I know of many who have
    lost thier lives through religious fanatacism, racial hatred, etc.
    
    Does this mean that we must give awareness days to the people from the
    KKK, or IRA, or any of these other organisations.
    
    I SAY NO!
    
    Bonzo....

    Re: Buck, come on lighten up and give us all a break!
    
    If we are into valuing sexual diversities then how about an awareness
    day for Sado-Masochists, Pediophiles and people who do strange things
    with chickens?  Not the same thing you say.  Try telling this to them! 
    Be realistic, one persons normal practice is anothers perversion!  How
    would you feel if your son was seduced by a gay person and thus ended
    up gay himself?  Ditto for the other 'sexual' groups!
    
    My attitude is that I will tolerate these people (not understand them,
    how can I) so long as they don't shove there sexual preferences down my
    throat!  I don't preach about my preferences (fairly normal,
    red-blooded male chauvinist pig with a healthy regard for chic (oops
    ignore that last bit)).  Why should I stand up for people whose
    practices I abhore!  I don't feel the need to protect satanists or
    rapists, etc., so give me one 'solid and logical' reason why I should
    get up tight about this group!  I can and do value the differences of race,
    (humanist) religion and colour, but I am afraid that sexual deviations
    are for the individual to come to terms with.  It is not, in my
    opinion, a matter for society to concern itself with except where it
    affects the innocent!  If someone beats up a gay person, then that
    person should be arrested and sent away for a long time, but that
    does not make it an 'issue' for society.  I had someone wanted to beat
    me up because he thought I was English, that does not mean that I want
    a value English society.  Anyway I am Scottish, so beating up the
    English is probably OK (^8* (joke alright!).
    
    In closing.  One of these days (maybe 25th century) we (humanity) will 
    sort out what is really 'socially acceptable' behaviour and prejudices
    of all kinds, other than those which should remain, will be a thing of 
    the past.  Hopefully there will then be no need for any valuing 
    differences groups.
    
    
    GAZ 

    best note so far in this topic belongs to GAZ...
    
    Bonzo

    Why Bonzo, you will turn my head with all this flattery (^8*.  But,
    having reread my reply, maybe I came on a bit strong!
    
    GAZ

    What would a gay awareness day consist of?
    
    Lots of badges and pamphlets saying how g/l/b`s don`t differ to 
    anyone else etc? No one`s going to argue with that.
    
    All sounds very "American" to me.
    
    Joe Strummer.
    

    
    RE: GAZ
    
    'member how you said, that if a guy beat up a gay guy, then he should
    be arrested and put away for a long time. There is an exception, if
    that Criminal was "Gay Bashing", of course the issue should become
    public, and get attention. They are centering around a group of people
    who are different. If you take a look back about, oh let's say to the
    50's I can recall the same things happening to blacks. And if it wasn't
    for one man, the blacks would still be put down and beat, and degraded,
    which is wrong, cause there isn't one F*CKING person on this world who
    can say he's perfect, and that everyone likes him. Who is anyone else
    to judge someone cause they just don't feel the same way as you. I'm
    not trying to puch anything on anybody, because that makes me a
    hypocrite, and I don't like them. If anyone feels they should
    disreguard anyone group, because there different then by all means go
    'head. But think about it. In 10 years YOU might be in a group that
    gets treated the same way. And who says Satanists and others don't get
    awareness day. I am sure they have one, but you don't attend them. I
    personnaly wouldn't go to a gay rally, simply because...I'm not gay.
    But if a man walked in with a gun and started shooting people becuase
    they were gay, then I'd be the first in line to see him hang. 
    	About jokes. Sure everyone makes jokes, about gays, aids, and it's
    all in good humor, but... not everyone is like the joke maker. The
    person hearing the joke might be secretly gay, or have aids. That could
    destroy a friendship, or someone elses confidence to say, "I have aids"
    Over the summer someone really close to me died of AIDS, and I'll tell
    you, jokes pointed at AIDS really don't bother me, what I don't like is
    if I cough excessivly due to a common cold, and someone looks at me and
    says, "What'd you got, aids or somethin" This has happened quite
    frequently lately, maybe I never noticed it before but I do now. Just
    suggesting that I might have a disease that is TERMINAL, no matter how
    I got it, is enough to make me mad. Look I'm not Gay and I don't have
    AIDS, I know for sure cause I had a test done last year. Hey studs
    should do this at least twice a year...no joke. 
    
    Anyway, I'm just pointin' at my views. so what it boils down to is...
    	Gay Awareness day: Those who want to be a part of it, then be a
    part. Those who don't, don't. Jokes are funny, true, but they can hurt,
    EVEN UNINTENTIONALLY. I don't think that kids should have off from
    school and the like, but something tells me they won't go that far.
    Homosexuality is playing a big role, in America. Crush that, and it
    could hurt America, in the long run, cause I'm sure that there a lot of
    Gays in hiding right now...
    
    Chris, who hates to preach, but occaisonally does so.

    Re: Chris.  You are not really reading what I have written!  OK, that
    is a common mistake of people, so perhaps I will spell it out!
    
    Just because someone who is gay is beaten up, whether the person who
    did the beating did it consciously as "gay bashing" or not, is not the
    point.  The problem is not gay-bashing 'per-se' it is violence of any
    kind.  There are so many prejudices in the world these days that anyone
    who beats, and anyone who is beaten, can claim that it was done because
    he was black/gay/buddhist/communist/ornitholigist/etc.   If someone
    beats me up because I am Scottish then I will take him to court because
    he beat me up, the reason he did it is irrelevant!
    
    Second point, to talk about G/B/L as being the same case as racial/colour
    prejudice is trite.  People are black or white or red or yellow, etc
    (no choice).  People are american, british, german, african, jewish,
    etc. (again no choice).  People are born with urges from which they
    later in life make a choice.  Their choice should be respected.  But
    why the hell should I or anyone else have to be 'made aware of it'.
    I often have the urge to smash my mother-in-law in the lip; my choice
    is not to do it.  Not because it is socially unacceptable but, for me,
    it is morally reprehensible.  I would not however, advocate a day of
    awareness for mother-in-law beaters.
    
    People are way too quick to make their problems, which they have chosen
    quite freely, other peoples burden!  The clever person keeps his
    private life to himself, especially if it is likely to lead to problems
    if he does spread it around.  Homosexuality was recently made legal, it
    was not however made compulsory!
    
    
    GAZ

    
    I agree, with Lee, Greg, and Rob. And Cook, it is rather American,
    isn't it?
    
    /prc

    Sorry Buck if I upset you or anyone else of any persuasion!  This was
    not my intention!  I do, however, have my own opinions on this subject. 
    You are not giving me a good reason why this should be a societal
    issue, all you are doing is trying to frighten me by shouting
    harrassment suit and taking some of what I said out of context!  Great
    discussion, think I will pass before someone does get it into their
    head too sue me!
    
    
    GAZ

    
    RE: GAZ
    
    I understand how you say violence is violence, but to commit an act of
    violence against someone because of a MAJOR difference, is more than,
    "Just an attack" They are attacking the whole group. It doesn't matter
    if your born with it or you discovered it yesterday. And like Buck
    says, you don't have to cuddle up with them (my modification of bucks
    words) just respect them as people who aren't like you. About the day.
    You're making it out like it's goin' to be a national holiday, anr the
    country is goin to shut down. No of course not. But there's M.L.K. day,
    and what did he do. He made it possible for the black COMMUNITY to
    become a little more respected, just as the gay COMMUNITY wants to. I
    can also assume you think there shouldn't be an AIDS awareness day,
    just cause you don't have it, right? I mean big deal, if we don't stop
    it by the year 2000 almost 2/3 of the population is goin to be infected
    with the DEADLY disease. Look, I don't care what you believe, that is
    up to YOU, that's your right. If you continue to argue that's fine, all
    the better You might open some eyes. But understand, the gay population
    IS NOT going to go away, and fade out like a fad. In fact it's growing.
    Anyway... it's up to you. I would never degrade you or discriminate you,
     because of the things you believe in.
    
    
    
    Chris

>    Maybe I should.  But my point was not that nobody would benefit from
>    such a a presentation, but that those that cause the most problems for
>    other employees would not benefit.  
    
    I think the phrase "those that cause the most problems" is an
    interesting one to analyze.
    
    I presume that you meant rascists, gay-bashers and the various other
    forms of intolerants.  What's interesting to note is that they do NOT
    cause "the most" problems.
    
    What I tried to communicate in earlier notes was that the "tolerant
    but unaware" STILL cause problems, and because they are larger in
    number, it is not unreasonable to say that they cause the "most"
    problems, if not the "worst" problems.
    
    >Someone that cares about people and has compassion in their heart is
    >not going to be causing the kind of problems that Buck described, such
    >as beating someone up or getting someone fired because of how they
    >choose to live their life outside of work.  
    
>    Yes, as you've stated with your example about the casual remarks about
>    AIDS and such, someone *can* unwittingly hurt someone's feelings, but I
>    consider this relatively minor compared to someone who *intentionally*
>    berates the same person and destroys the work atmosphere with their
>    loud exclamations and actions based on discrimination.
    
    So far as I know, DEC doesn't have a problem of employees beating
    up gay employees and such.  I believe these VaD programs are motivated
    by LESS severe problems such as the ones both you and I have now
    mentioned.
    
    They are not as individually "severe", but they are far more
    commonplace.

>    But on the other hand, if I say that I don't support putting on these
>    presentations, wouldn't my attending one conflict with my beliefs?  8^)
    
    You tell me:  Would Tipper Gore and the PMRC be acting in conflict
    with her views if they were to listen to the music they claim is
    hurting our children?
    
>>    	o Non-work related noting
>>    	o The Canobie Lake outings
>>    	o n-year Award dinners
>>    	o Digital sponsored activities such as sports leagues
>>    	o Digital Heath Centers (weight rooms/aerobics, etc.)
>
>    Somehow I knew someone would bring this up when I wrote that.  I
>    suppose I'd like to address these individually.  Yes, I do think those
>    things on the list which require extraneous outlays of money should be
>    suspended.  
    
    > It doesn't make sense to be increasing (or maintaining) spending in
    > nonessentual areas when we are in this situation.

    What is "extraneous" and "nonessential" according to you?
    
    >I see no reason to suspend those that are already established and don't
    >require extra expenditures, such as employee interest noting and
    >existing exercise rooms.  
    
    Employee interest noting is probably costing this company more than
    the rest in terms of wasted work time.
    
    And the cost of building a health center pales in comaprison to the
    cost of running it (staffing, office space, and more so than anything:
    INSURANCE).
    
     	db

    > Why should I stand up for people whose practices I abhore!  
    
    It goes something like this:
    
    	I do not agree with what you say, but I'd defend to the death
    	your right to say it.

    
    Good point db
    
    
    plus I will have....

    re .48  Nope, I was going to drop out of this but I will reply to this
    to say that this is just another trite expression...can't remember to
    whom it is attributable.
    
    I will not defend (especially to the death) someones right to say
    something when it is anti-humanist in any way.  The expression you
    quote is totally contradictory and if the person who came out with it
    had stopped to think about it he would probably have agreed.  Work it
    out for yourself it is an interesting phrase.
    
    So please don't throw this trite and innefective nonsense in my face. 
    I agree that this one phrase out of all that I said does not sit quite
    well with me, but I would have expected a better response than this.
    
    
    GAZ

    Yo Gaz, .48 was refering to the right of free speech. Something just
    about every American will abuse. 

    I know what he was referring to Jesse.  But the wise man knows that
    there is no such thing as 100 percent free speech!  It is a
    contradiction of the slander and libel laws, etc.
    
    
    GAZ

    Yo GAZ,
    
    I think you've twisted the meaning of that expression. 
    
    I'm too tired from last night to give the full argument.
    
    In short, you can't expect the public to defend the right to make heavy
    metal music (against the likes of the PMRC for example) if YOU won't
    defend other kinds of free speech.
    
    Free speech is only possible when we are willing to stand up for
    speakers in the minority.

    Honest db I haven't twisted anything.  I just dissected the phrase for
    logical content and came up with a paradox and a contradiction in
    terms.
    
    In other words 'It don't make sense'!  I know what you are trying to
    say however, and am willing to concur!
    
    
    GAZ