Conference napalm::heavy_metal

        Another thought ... once it's decided whether or not we
        should call someone HM we can delete the replies having to
        do with that band, and start a topic.  If we decide they're
        not really HM, then we can keep the replies for future refer-
        ence.
    
        So, if possible - dedicate your reply to one band only.  And
        if you think this is a dumb idea, then let me know. (Greg,
        LEAVE ME ALONE!!  I know you'll think it's dumb, if you don't
        even appreciate the fact that one of us likes to report on the
        progression of the conference).  8^)
    
                                                         GTI

    

        Honeymoon Suite - are they Heavy_Metal?
    
        They have a great sound - good vocalist, good guitar work.
        The intro to 'Love Changes Everything' is FANTASTIC!!

        And then there's 'Burning in Love' and 'New Girl Now' -
        both of these songs are great (especially 'Burning').
    
        But do they have what it takes to be called 'HM'?
    
        I think so, but maybe not.
                                                     GTI
    

    
    I think i'll have to agree with the devil dog.  Poison, new Whitesnake
    and others are of the new Pop Metal.  When was the last time you
    saw Black Sabbath or Ozzy on Casy's Top 40 chart?  It's pseudo Metal
    to me but I guess we need other opinion.
    
                                              Stinger...
    

    
        I don't know about Cinderella ... they're fairly heavy on
        alot of the 'Night Songs' songs.
    
        But I agree on the rest (Simon and Garfunkel?).
    
                                                         GTI
    

    
    RE: wjb
    
        Oh no - I disagree completely on Van Halen.
    
        Van HAGAR, on the other hand ...
    
                                                       Shawn L.
    

    
    
    	So I guess that if bands like Wasp are considered HM, then
    	the majority of the bands discussed here are not?
    
    	Then HM bands must be groups like Metallica, Wasp, Lizzie 
    	Borden, etc.
    
    	I thought those were considered to be Thrash or Speed or
    	whatever.
    
    	If someone has to categorize, although I myself hate 
    	categorization, maybe HM should be a very general category and 
    	then the various types of HM fall under different "classes"...
    
    	My opinion....that's all.
    
    	/kim
    
    
    	

    
    re: .12	"Van Halen Useta rule!"
    
    	   Ahh yes, Dog... but that's one of the problems, isn't
    	it?  Once a band gets as incredibly popular as Van Halen
    	did, they are shifted from whatever category they started
    	from into the 'pop box'.  Hey, can they help it if their
    	music was the best thing that ever happened at the time?
    	Is it their fault they made metal more popular?  Come on
    	guys, give'em a break.  At the time they WERE Heavy Metal.
    	That other bands may be 'heavier' (by your estimation)
    	does not lessen the impact they made on the music scene
    	(and are still making, to a much lower degree).
    
    	   VH IS HEAVY METAL!
    
    	-=[MOSAT]=-
    	(any descenting opinions will be cheerfully deleted)

    
    RE:.13  Good Job!! V.H. is metal at it's finest!!!
                      
    	AC/DC From what I've read, seen and heard, do not consider
    themselves as Heavy Metal. I think they should be put in a sub-divison
    of Metal called "Blues-Metal". If you've listen to ealier albums
    you know what I am talking about. I think old Whitesnake could fall
    under this division  also... 
                                
    		Bon Jovi, Cindarella, and Poison try to be H.M. but
    fall short in the long run... I think it's due to the spandex?!?
    
    			    One	Heavy_Metal_Driven_Human's opinion..
    	                     
    						The_Frankster!                
    

    
                                               
    Having seen Bon Jovi, Whitesnake and Cinderella live, I wouldn't
    say they are pop metal.  They *all* kick butt.                  
                                                                    
    "pop" is an abbreviation for "popular".  Anthrax could be    
    considered pop coz they have been in the top 40 in GB a few times.
               
    
    Whitesnake:
                                            
    Listen to Whitesnake.  People cry "Whitesnake have wimped out".
    BULLSH*T.  Its true they have now got a completely different 
    sound (and line up :-) ) but I reckon "Still of The Night" and 
    "Bad Boys" have gotta be their heaviest tracks to date (maybe 
    not the best, but you can't deny that they're heavy).
     
            
    Bon Jovi:
                  
    Slippery When Wet was not-so-heavy as 7800� Fahrenheit or the
    first album but common guys, Ritchie Sambora is up their with the
    best of them and you gotta admit, these guys have got their sh*t
    together.  One of the British HM mags (Kerrang) was saying that
    Bon Jovi were the best thing since sliced bread (This is when
    Slippery.. was just released) but as soon as Jovi got in the charts
    and were starting to be recognised as a potentially MEGA band, old
    Kerrang slagged the "wimps/posers/teeny_boppers" off no end.  Why?
    Because they were SUCCESSFUL.
     
    Just an *opinion*
    -Tony

    
    	   In general, magazines try to reflect the attitudes of
    	their readers.  When Kerrang started slaggin Bon Jovi,
    	they were merely echoing the sentiments of the Heavy
    	Metal crowd, who are often so hung up on being at 'the
    	leading edge of metal' that they can't accept any band
    	that is known by more than 1 million people world-wide.
    	As long as you remain 'underground' and fo not acheive
    	real success, you're okay in their eyes.  As soon as
    	non-headbangers like your music, bingo... pop star/teeny
    	boppers/posers/etc.  No real change has to be made in the
    	show to cause this phenomenon (but if changes are made,
    	of course the HM crowd sees them as wimp-out maneuvers,
    	designed to increase their pop-status).
    
    	-=[MOSAT]=-
    	(who says metal and pop are not mutually exclusive)

    
    
    	Thank you Tony and MOSAT!!  I would never have been able to
    	say it as well as the both of you just did!
    
    	You're right about the "once a band gets popular" syndrome.
    	I used to LOVE Bon Jovi, now I don't like him because every
    	time I hear a song (mostly from Slippery...), all I
    	can think of are little teeney-boppers with braces and pig-
    	tails screaming at the top of their lungs.
    
    	/kimster
    

    I too have been caught up in the "Band gets popular and wimps out
    syndrome" Its funny cause when 1984 got big, most of my friends
    were saying that they had woosed out. I always loved Van halen and
    pointed out that "Hot For teacher", "Panama", "Top Jimmy","Drop
    Dead Legs", as well as most others could be on any Van halen album.
    Same with the Scorps, they got popular with "Love at First Sting"
    and some of my buds didn't like it. "Coming Home" kicks A$$.
     
    Think about it. 8 - 10 times it is the fact that everyone else likes
    YOUR music that makes us think a band has wimped out. The band usually
    doesn't change all that much. In Bon Jovi's case, "Livin on a Prayer"
    is a great song, they haven't changed all that much, its just that
    Tiger Beat, and other little girl mags started covering them more.
    
    It's like discovering an awesome spot to party at, and alluvasudden
    everybody goes there, so you go look for another spot, or you share
    it with everyone.
    
    the devil dog sez "Change, and nothing stays the same"
    or did someone else say that???         

    H*ll yes! Who cares if S&G is good? Who cares if they suck? They
    are not heavy metal! Same with Van Halen! I like Van Halen very
    much. They did 'wimp out' a little especially with Hagar, but I
    still think they are good. But so what. They are not, and never
    were HEAVY metal. This conference is for Metallica, and Megadeth,
    and Iron Maiden, and other HEAVY METAL bands, not Van Halen, Bon
    Jovi, or other 'almost' heavy metal bands. And especially not SIMON
    AND GARFUNKEL! 
    
    Dave 
    

================================================================================
Note 552.6                        Cheap Trick!                            6 of 7
DPDMAI::ANDERSONS                                     7 lines  26-JUN-1989 17:56
                           -< Heavy Metal My A**!! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    SORRY I DIDN'T SEE THIS EARLIER...
    
    These dudes are as close to heavy metal as poison is. They both suck
    swamp water...... 
    
    Heavy metal is raw power.......it give makes the hair on the back of
    your head stand up......IT KICKS YOUR A*S......

    
    
    Judas Priest is Heavy Metal
    Accept        "   "     "
    
    jeff

    
    >Judas Priest is Heavy Metal
    >Accept        "   "     "
     
    
    	Thanks ... u sure put my mind to rest.
    
    							GTI
    

    At this point in music...(philisophical sounding)...it's hard to single
    out who is heavy metal and who is not.  What this whole discussion
    needs to be called is HARD ROCK.  
    	Undoubtedly, everyone can agree that bands like Metallica and
    Slayer can be categorized as heavy metal.  (Heavy punk/thrash
    influences)  However, it's when you get to bands like Bon Jovi,
    Whitesnake and others that you wonder about.  That is where everyone
    else fits in.  No longer can this really be heavy metal, because its
    not.  Led Zeppelin isn't metal, it's hard rock.  Van Halen isn't metal,
    it's hard rock.  Poison is hard rock.  Cheap Trick is just rock.  Bruce
    Springsteen (ugh) is just rock.  
    	That's how it is.
    
    					Steve -I'm a Sun King baby!
    

    
    
    
                         "judas priest"
                     the genuine artical
                   

    
    If JP are the inventors then how come Tony Iommi used to manage
    them when Black Sabbath weren't too busy ? 8^)
                  
    Sabbath roolz !!

    hehehehehehehe!!

                
                Yep, besides  Dio  was  the best singer they ever
                had ...
                
                

    Beg to differ Rob my ol' chum...
    
    But IMHO Sabbath ain't Sabbath without Ozzy!
    
    Bonzo

    re Rob and Bonzo
    
    I agree with Rob that DIO has the better voice, but "Sabbath ain't
    Sabbath without Ozzy!"
    
    Flip

    Well Deebs, you are entering so many info-packed replies!!
    
    That's the second one in a row I've next-unseened to that is nothing
    but a title.

              
    I agree that RJD is 8472384748934344 times a better singer than
    old Ozzy, but Ozzy IS Sabbath !! Iommi has now gone stale. He never
    was a good lead guitar plyer, but he is a good rhythm player. Hes
    trying to flog a dead horse wheras Ozzy is coming up with fresh new 
    ideas or sounds every time.
          
    Ozzy Roolz !
    -Tony

    
    Course it matters what Sabbath is like now!  The *were* one of the
    greatest heavy metal bands around with the likes of Dio and Ozzy,
    but can you honestly say that you are a fan of their present work?

    
    	RE: .32 (Tony Iommi)
    
    		Those who can, play ... those who can't, manage.
    
    		8^)
    
    							GTi
    

  RE:Flip  
 >>   Course it matters what Sabbath is like now!  The *were* one of the
 >    greatest heavy metal bands around with the likes of Dio and Ozzy,
 >>   but can you honestly say that you are a fan of their present work?
         
    
                          Yes...More Than Ever!
    
    Tama..Devoted Sabbath Fan...

    re:.45
    
    >>Yes, I like Iommi's guitar work better, but the songs lack the great
    >>writing ability of Ozzy, Dio, or Gillan.
    
    But I saw/heard an interview with Ozzy where he said he didn't do any
    of the writing. It was all done by Tony and Geezer.
    
    IMO Sabbath went downhill after Vol 4. The new stuff is OK. If it were
    any new band we'd probably all be raving about it. But put it next to
    things like Supernaut, Children of the Grave, Iron Man, etc it doesn't
    work. Worth listening to all the same.
    
    Keef.
    
    PS: Mods: Maybe we should move this discussion to the Black Sabbath
        note.

    RE:45
    
    	Iommi is great! Real Sabbath is Ozzy. The best Sabbath was with
    Ian Gillan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    				CB

    Yeah! Metal! Yeah! Ozzy! Yeah! Iommi! Yeah! Gillan! Yeah! RJD!
    
    So...what's your point?
    
    Re: .40
    I wouldn't say Ronnie is really 8472384748934344 times better.
    Maybe a little less than that.

    What the !@�$ is your problem ?

    
    	Second on that one Tony.... why he's even worse that you...(^8
    
    BK
    

    
    	RE: The Doors
    
    		Maybe they aren't Heavy_Metal.  So what.  Arguably,
    		they were pioneers for some of the newer metal
    		bands.
    
    		And if so, they belong in this conference.
    
    		'Nuff said?  [I doubt it.]
    
    	RE: Pete
    
    		A guitar note in DRUMS, eh?  What about a note dis-
    		cussing drumming as a job which lays down the beat
    		for the guitarist?  What's wrong with that.
    
    							GTI
    

    
    	OK, how about a note discussing the best guitarist to
    	work with if you're a drummer?
    
    							GTI
    

    
    >How about a note in CLASSICAL about The Doors?
     
    	I don't care ... I don't moderate CLASSICAL.
    
    	[Sorry.  8^)]
    
    	Seriously, I guess it could stay depending on what the
    	note intended to discuss.  If The Doors were influenced
    	by classical music, or vice-versa, then there's no prob-
    	lem.
    
    							GTI

    
    	RE: Pete
    
    		My replies about DRUMS, and my reply about a Doors
    		note in CLASSICAL should illustrate the point I'm
    		trying to make ... which is that ANY subject could
    		be relevant in a conference.
    
    		I could start a note about bread in the ELECTRONICS
    		conference, if, for example, bread was known to have
    		good conductive properties.  [As far as I know, it
    		doesn't ... please don't try this at home.]
    
    							GTI
    

    re: Cookster
    
    There is nothing in the conference rules which says that discussions of
    artists which are not Heavy Metal per se will not be allowed.  I do not
    see this issue as inconsistancy in the conference moderation.  
    
    One of the first discussions in this conference was on Pink Floyd, it
    has never been disputed or removed.  They are no closer to metal then
    the Doors. 
                                                                   
    gh

	RE: Doors
    
    		Definitely not heavy metal, but the topic should be
    	allowed to exist since enough people have generated a genuine
    	discussion about the group.  
    		What conferences exist to support this type of music
    	anyways (music, radio_radio)?  Just wondering.

    Music is probably where a discussion on the Doors would draw the most
    interest (of the conferences you mentioned).  This is a fairly
    extensive discussion of them there.  
    
    I believe from reading Radio_Radio that you'd probably be ostricized
    for discussing a band like the Doors there.  A lot of the people that
    read that notesfile seem to have an attitude that if something is
    widely liked, not real current, or not considered "alternative" it's
    not good.  Personally, I think that this type attitude severely
    restricts them from enjoying a lot of music which they might like. 
    
    Quite honestly, I think that the people that note in this conference
    are for the most part much more open minded as to the types of music
    they will listen to and more tolerant of people that like musical forms
    that they don't then you'll find in most of the other music related
    conferences available.  Try starting a note on a heavy metal band in
    Music and see how many closed minded people there are that will be
    happy to give you their offensive opinion.
    
    Greg
        

    
    	RE: Pete
    
    		Well, The Beatles were also considered "far from
    		normal" when they came out ... can I talk about
    		then in EHM?
    
    		The Cars were considered somewhat "pioneers" of
    		New-Wave music (although I disagree with that).
    		Can I talk about them in EHM?
    
    		Sorry - I think I'm off on a tangent (somewhere).
    		If someone finds me, let me know.
    
    							GTI

    
    re Pete
    
    So as Moderator you choose what goes in EHM?  Well, I asked all the
    Mods of HM if I could put the Doors note in here and they gave me 
    the go ahead.
    
    ;^P
    
    ;^)
    
    Flip

                FWIW, The  Doors DEFINATELY do NOT belong in EHM.
                So they were  alternative  in  the  60's...  they
                aren't  anymore.  Everybody  was  alternative  at
                some point.  
                
                FWIW,  Rob who really doesn't  care  whether  the
                Doors are here or not, just  thought I'd enter my
                opinion.  I happen to like the Doors anyway.
                
                Rob who awoke before dawn and put  his  snakeskin
                boots on...
                

    ...and he walked on down the hall...

    
    	Fin...let the Doors stay...but like some moderators have been
    screaming... Keep it in it's related topic....maybe the Fav non
    metal topic would do...
    
    BK
    

    re.69
    Nah. Leave it be.
    They've got enough replies from this conference's members to 
    justify their own note.
    Gee Brian, I can't believe YOU worrying about something like this!
    
    When are people gonna give up?
    
    /Motorbreath...who considers this the HM Society Conference now,
    and has no more complaints, cuz that's what it is.

    RE - Cookster ...
    
    You folks need to remember that EHM is HIS conference, HIS baby.
    					   ^^^             ^^^
    
    Subject to HIS views concerning HIS policies ...
               ^^^                  ^^^
    
    If anyone wants to know the "real" reason why EHM exists, send me
    mail ... have I got a ditty for ya ... (what was once set hidden
    is now just campin' out in a mail folder ...)
    
    Yo Pete - this subtle HM vs EHM game is getting stale ...   8^)
    
    
    
    
    				Scary

    
    While we're on the subject, can we talk about getting rid of the
    Warrant note?  The Doors generate more discussion, and Warrant is a
    disgrace to H_M.
    
    :-)Steve
    
    PS.  Pete, I have to agree with Scary.  I thought I was the only one
    that noticed your competition.

    
    RE: .74
  > PS.  Pete, I have to agree with Scary.  I thought I was the only one
  > that noticed your competition.
   
    You weren't...
    
    ;^)

    

    
    GET RID OF WARRANT FILE!!!!!!!!!  Great idea Steve!!  (me, who wants to
    to bring a grenade laucher to Crue tomorrow!!)

    
    	RE: Kim
    
        >GET RID OF WARRANT FILE!!!!!!!!!
      
    	That's Warrant "note".  HELPME::HEAVY_METAL is a "file".
    
    							Shawn L.
    
    

    Well, EXCUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSE me

    
    
    And it's a damn good idea there's no Warrant "file" either, 
    Mr. Slabounty.  ;-)
    
    ;_| <--- Look!!  It's a guy with a squished nose!!
    
    
    Sorry,
    Steve

RE - 83.73 by VCSESU::COOK ...
    
<> You folks need to remember that EHM is HIS conference, HIS baby.
    			                 ^^^             ^^^
    <    I hosted it, and I co-moderate it currently.
    
	No kidding ... I kinda gathered that by all the references you
	make in HM concerning that conference - all in the name of broadening
	noters awareness to other types of music I'm sure ... right !

<> Subject to HIS views concerning HIS policies ...
                 ^^^                  ^^^
    <    	Correct, as well as Digital's.
    
	I re-read your rooolz .... seems like your idea for that conference 
	has softened quite a bit due to lack of interest.  I mean, the 
	discussion in there concerning gun control was quite relevant to
	the conference.   Seems like I remember that one of the reasons you
	took your toys over there was to get away from the chit chat in 
	here.  Now you welcome it.  You sold out pal ...

<> If anyone wants to know the "real" reason why EHM exists, send me
<> mail ... have I got a ditty for ya ... (what was once set hidden
<> is now just campin' out in a mail folder ...)
    
   <	Why don't you give it a rest. Nobody really cares about your
   < 	personal vendetta against me. Your whining isn't very becoming
   < 	of you.

	My whining !  Gimme a break .... out of the goodness of my heart 
	and the spirit of the season I took up a collection among the 
	noters so I could purchase some towels for you to cry on .. the 
	truck should be arriving any day ...
    
	And there's no personal vendetta against you dude ... just trying
	to point out your silliness, nothing personal ...	

	Got a pretty good response in mail today too.    8^)

<> Yo Pete - this subtle HM vs EHM game is getting stale ...   8^)
    
<    	What competition. Each conference serves a different purpose
<    	then the other.

	You're right ... H_M serves the SOAPBOX/SINGLES crowd and EHM 
	serves your ego .... it is what it is.  



				Scary

    (who doesn't like to battle wits with unarmed opponents ... 8^)    

    Being new to this conference, I have a suggestion.....
    
    Why don't you guys meet at dawn, stand back to back, walk ten paces,
    turn, and throw spear shaped guitars at each other.  The one who
    catches the other's without bleeding to death is right.  My money is on
    Scary!  8^)
    
    Steve_who's_response_is_REALLY_all_in_fun....so please; NO flames?

    re:  last ten or so...
    
    Is this fun or what?!  Let's rename this note "I'm taking my notes, and
    going home, na, na, na"
    
    Lighten up dudes, I'm gettin' a bad feelin 'bout my newfound
    conference!
    
    Steve

    I wasn't blaming anyone in particular, it just seemed like the
    bickering in general was VERY "high school", and I was making fun of
    the bickering itself.  I've been attacked myself for comments, and
    opinions etc, and I try to take 'em with a grain of salt.  Firing back
    hard is what usually gets the big rathole arguments going. No offense
    intended, dude.
    
    Hang in there....8)
    
    Steve

    
    Steve,
    	Let me welcome you to GSO, You may have a little trouble
    understanding the humor down here in the South. Some people just don't 
    realize that some things are said in "Fun"!.
    
    .85�    The high school attitude prevails in this conference. Get a life.
    
    	RiGhT!
    
    B.A.

    when are you zipperheads going to relax?
    You take everything so personally, who cares about anything,
    why take these conferences seriously anyway?
    
    can't you find anything better to bit*h about?
    /Motorbreath...welcome to the conf. Steve!!!
    Believe it or not, MOST people DO have fun here!!

    
    	well i still think we should have a debbie gibson topic in here
    to honor our high school attitude.  perhaps we could discuss the
    h_m undertones in electric_youth??

    Second verse, same as the first,
    A LITTLE BIT LOUDER, AND A LITTLE BIT WORSE!!!

    Thanks for the welcomes guys!  I'm new to the conference B.A, but I've
    been in GSO for 9 months.  Stop buy and say hi!  I'm havin fun...a good
    brew ha ha is great!  One of my favorite comedians (Crusher Comic) on
    the "local" club circuit says: "you stink.....but I mean that in a nice
    way"  8)
    
    yee Ha!  Bulldawg

    re: .93
    
    Or to the same fat chick when she informs you that she is expecting to
    give birth next week...."Oh, I didn't realize you were pregnant"
    
    8)
    Bulldawg

    
    	Ummm, can we please stop talking about "fat chicks" and get
    	back to discussing whatever we happened to be discussing in
    	the first place (if anything)?
    
    	Thank you.
    
    							GTI
    

    re:  .96     
    
    Good point....sorry  8)
    
    Steve

                Or a quote from MY favorite comedian (Andrew Dice
                Clay):
                
                You should see mine.  It's a _____n horror show.
                
                :')
                

    RE - .92
    
    
    			... promise ?    8^)
    
    
    RE - .95
    
    
    			you'd make a lousy used car salesman ...  8^)
    
    
    RE - cookster in general ....
    
    
    		did your towels arrive yet ?
    
    
    
    
    				Scary
    
    (who loves a good argument, but will put up with Pete until I find
    one ...)

                
                Would you  two  knock  it  off  already??  It was
                pretty funny initially,  but  it's  getting stale
                rather quickly.
                
                - Rob -
                
                BTW, 100 replies!!!
                
                

Hate to say this folks...



But I agree with Pete on this one.   Although, I happen to enjoy the 
Doors a great deal I find that they do not have a place in a conferance
entitled Heavy_Metal.  I also think that bands like Pink Floyd shouldn't 
be here.  There are certain things that define the music we call Heavy 
Metal.  I do not know the technical terms of the music, but I'm sure there
is some unity of style that is what classifies Heavy Metal music.
Is it a screaming guitar, a faster pace, a driving bass line.  It it the 
vocals?  IMO(FWIW) Heavy_Metal is all those things.  There are different 
classifications of Metal too, but that is not my point.   

	The Doors although they are one of the best Rock and Roll bands, 
I really don't think they belong in a Metal Conferance.  The Moderators
of this conferance are just looking out to make the folks happy and 
they have the idea that anything that even comes close to Metal should 
be allowed.  This isn't bad, but it doesn't stay true to the conferance
title.  I personally will just hit next unseen over the Doors Note...


	As for Pete's on going battle over EHM and HM, I find it to 
be a very immature bickering.  I was in EHM for a while, I liked the 
idea of having a conferance which weeded out the Non-Metal Bands (hell
If I wanted to read about non-metal bands I'd be in Music), I just got 
tired with Pete's arrogance as a moderator.  I wasn't sure on who I 
could enter into that conferance.  I wanted to add Priest, but wasn't 
sure if they were Hard enough...It became too Punk/Hardcore for me.


Bill

    
    	RE: Akins
    
    	Well, the conference IS Heavy_Metal ... and therefore should
    	contain an overwhelming majority of H_M bands, with a scat-
    	tering of "borderline" bands - which it does.
    
    	MUSIC contains an overwhelming majority of general-purpose
    	bands, with a scattering of non-mainstream bands ... which
    	it does.
    
    	People open H_M because they're mainly interested in H_M,
    	but also because they're trying to find out what other bands
    	H_M listeners like ... whether it be H_M or otherwise.
    
    	If you don't like a discussion, don't read it.  Heck, I use
    	"next unseen" for almost every note in SOAPBOX ... until I
    	get to a topic I like.
    
    							GTI
    

    I guess my $.02 is worth mentioning?  If a note entitled "Which bands
    are Heavy-Metal" is written for general discussion, don't you think
    it's only natural that a discussion about bands that are NOT H_M would
    ensue?  It kind of just happens......
    
    There's a whole note in this conference about the band I play in, which
    is a non H_M band, but 3 of the members are noters.  That's OK, I
    think?!
    
    Steve

                Hey Bill, what are you apologising to me for??  I
                was the first  one to mention that I didn't think
                the Doors belonged here!  I agree with you 100%!!
                DO I have to leave 'cause of my node name??? :')
                
                PS, when are you having another party?!?!?
                PPS, I promise not to  get  as drunk, violent and
                obnoxious as I was at the last one :')
                
                - Rob -
                

    
    He apologised because he said that Pink Floyd should also be deleted.
    
    Flip

    re.106
    ha ha ha ha!!!!!!! I liked that one Pete. Isn't it fun being an
    outlaw!!! I used to enjoy it, now I'm mainstream. ;^)
    
    RE.Rob...
    why do that?? Those are all the things I hold dear about being
    drunk!!!! 8^)
    
    /Motorbreath...checkin in

                Nah, I  was  totally  out  of  control  at Bill's
                house.   Somewhat  drunk,  somewhat  violent  and
                somewhat  obnoxious  is  great,  but  I went  WAY
                beyond that :').  
                
                Re:  Pink Floyd...  you are right,  PF definately
                doesn't belong here.  I like PF, but that's  just
                my node name, I didn't pick it. 
                
                - Rob -
                

    
    	Cool PN Rob
    
    BK
    

Rob, 

I was apologizing for continueing the discussion.  As for the party...

Sometime this month....I'll talk to Paula and my new Roomate Costa...



Bill                

Oh yeah...Don't worry about becoming obnoxious again....

We'll have a straight jacket there.....(not like that would 
hold you down or anything....) :-)


Maybe you shouldn't down a quarter bottle of MEGADEATH though....

    
    	He didn't..he has some...but not all...
    
    	Werent you..or was it your old roomie thinking about handcuffing
    Rob...yea..it was your roomate..the camous sec dude... you told
    me what he wanted to do and I just laughed...
    
    BK
    

                Got me,  that  night  was a blank.  I just recall
                Alan finishing off  the  JD,  then after that the
                only thing left was  my 1/5th of Megadeth...  and
                the keg that I brought.  :')
                
                - Rob -
                
                It was a good party!
                
                

    which bands are heavy metal?
    
    the band that coined the phrase,judas priest.
    black sabbath.
    ozzy.
    scorpions
    
    bands like britny fox,cinderella,bon joby etc are ok a t what they do,
    but they are never "HEAVY METAL".
    
    							JIM.

    
    >the band that coined the phrase,judas priest.
    
    
    	Ummm, I don't think so.  That phrase goes back to at least the
    	days of Steppenwolf.
    
    							GTI
    

    doesn't the term derive from atomic physics?

                Long before  elements were ever known, before the
                vikings ruled the  seas,  even  before  the Roman
                empire had even begun, there sat a lonely caveman
                and his log drum.  There he thumped out his pain,
                his sorrow, his hunger for the  dodo  bird.    So
                great  was  his  anguish, he invented 32nd  notes
                (though they weren' called that 'till later).  He
                played these notes, and all was good.  He pounded
                and  howled  with  glee.   This was what life was
                about.   Not  the hunt, not dragging women by the
                hair, not chasing  the  other  tribe all over the
                dense, subtropical forest.   Then  there  was one
                thump louder than all, and  silence.  There stood
                Reverend  Ugumbug,  and holding aloft his mammoth
                club he sayith, "Grogum  hugeem   buggem.   Heavy
                Metalug  withum  loggut  no  gugood."  As  so the
                phrase  heavy  metal  was  coined,  and  Reverend
                Ugumbug passed this belief down through the ages,
                through the church, through  the parents, through
                the schools and now, the opposition rises against
                the Ugumbug people to fight that  belief,  and to
                bring peace and happiness to all the log thumpers
                and rock bangers of the world.
                
                :')
                

    
    	Yo Rob,
    
    8^)
    
    

             <<< LANDO::ADMIND:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HEAVY_METAL.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -< Heavy Metal >-
================================================================================
Note 476.7                      Escape Club, The                          7 of 7
CAVLRY::BUCK "Marshall Stack Puke !"                  2 lines  18-FEB-1991 16:10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Yeah, another band (along wif da Doors) dat should not be in da
    HM file! 

    All poseing alternative bands are NOT! Heavy Metal and should parish
    from  the earth.  Then we can continue working on world peace. 8)
    
                   Frizkid...
    
    

    I just heard a Judds song, definately, NOT! 

re: FRIZ


Amen!

    
    Okay, Rush is not Heavy Metal!  I say we obliterate the topic!
    
    

    
    
    
    Why is the Elton John topic still here!?!?!
    
    I have nothing against the man, he is in my opinion, a great musician. 
    But if he has a note in here then there an be a note on anyone in here,
    and this conference might as well be renamed!!
    
    
    
    Goddess F.

    Francine,
    
    Dear, I *really* don't understand why you are still on your soapbox
    about the Elton note?!?  I mean, IMHO, songs like Saturday Night's
    Alright for Fighting, Bitch is Back, Funeral For a Friend/Love Lies
    Bleeding, Grey Seal are def. rocking enought for nonimation.  What's
    the big problem??

    Problem is,there`s plenty of bands with rocking bits or wot not. Why
    not have Prince,Simple Minds,Billy Idol,U2,Robert Palmer (half his
    last album wuz metal!) and the list goes on...
    

    >Problem is,there`s plenty of bands with rocking bits or wot not. Why
    >not have Prince,Simple Minds,Billy Idol,U2,Robert Palmer (half his
    >last album wuz metal!) and the list goes on...
    
    Actually, I would agree that Billy Idola and Robert Palmer could
    deserve base notes in this conf.  U2...I'm a longtime fan, and I don't
    think so.  Simple Minds...nope...no rockin numbers there.  Prince?  I'd
    vote yes...again, he writes in a wide vartiety of styles, but he does
    play a mean rock/metal guitar (ala his Hendrexesque playing on the
    Purple Rain album).
    

    
    
    But this is the heavy metal conference.  
    

    Oh PLEASE, Pete, that statement borders on your "EHM" mindset!
    
    
    IMHO, 'heavy metal' is a loosly based term, and covers everything
    from Steppenwolf to Cannibal Corpse.  HM is not so black and white.
                                 

>    Exactly. Not the rock conference, not the hard rock conference. The
>    Heavy Metal conference.
    
    But none of those conferences exist here and they're probably not going
    to.   This isn't Usenet, where people are so childish that they can't
    objectively discuss different forms of music within the same
    conference.
    
    Greg

    I mean, what difference does it really make to you what anyone else
    wants to talk about?  If you don't want to read it or talk about it,
    just press NEXT UNSEEN when it comes around.  Why make a big deal of
    it?  
    
    gh

    I wasn't lookin at anyone, dude.  Just making a general statement.
    
    Seems like people get so bent because something's discussed in the
    conference when it really shouldn't matter.  You only have to
    participate in the discussions you want to participate in, nobody's
    forcing anything down anyone's throat.
    
    gh

    
    
    How come Jesse's notes got moved to mutterings?  Or were they started
    in mutterings?
    
    what happened with those?
    
    
    
    Goddess F.

	I admit the content of my rambling in the Elton John note wasn't
	appropriate and I could understand it being moved but I don't 
	understand why it was deleted.  If accidental that's fine!
	
	{Thanks again for the Django pointer.}

	I get some of my best philosophical ranting from M.A.S.H.

		"Individualism - as long as we do it together"

	somethin' like that.

	- Jim

    
    Oh I get it, we're going to turn this into a MUSIC conference FOR
    HEAVY_METAL fans......?
    
    We have to draw the line somewhere.
    
    flip

	I mentioned to Alan if only purist notes were in here then it would
	be much easier for the mods to housekeep this conference.  Although
	I agree with what Pete said. in general I think most of the usually
	agreed upon rock/pop bands do find their way into MUSIC which is 
	where sometimes I think it all belongs anyhow!  As much as I enjoyed 
	reading EHM I enjoy the diversity here even if it is a bit silly at 
	times.  The Frozen Ghost topic had me roaring but at the same time 
	it's just as easy to suggest where someone might find a more 
	appropriate discussion than it is to spend time counting the reasons
	why the band doesn't belong some where.
	
	Soap 102

	- Jim

    hey I thought this was the H_M topic,if I wanted to read about
    mainstream/pop music I would read about it but I want my METAL.
    
    
                                          except for Warrant they're shite
    
                                                Staynz  ;)

    
    
    I'm with Flip.  This whole thing gets my blood boiling!
    
    
    
    
    Goddess F.

    
    	Well, the problem is that it's hard to draw a line between hard
    	rock and Heavy_Metal at times.  Some bands are just plain hard to
    	classify.  And what about H_M bands who write ballads ... do we
    	ban discussion of those songs because they're not H_M?
    
    	Frozen Ghost isn't Heavy_Metal, and I don't care whether or not
    	they have a topic here.  If it's here, so what, if it's not, so
    	what.
    
    							GTI
    

    What you may consider not to be H_M....I might.
           Heavy Metal is a very foggy word nowdays.  It used to be VERY
    definable but it's branched in SO many different directions I find it
    hard to classify.
     As far as Elton John....He's great and he's has influenced some of the
    greats of our days. Why should we be so close-minded? If you don't like
    it...DON'T READ IT. 
    
                   Frizkid
    

    
    
    Okay.  So the rules are this:   You can start a note on anything you
    want in here, as long as its musically related.  It can be on any band
    or singer.   Correct?
    
    
    
    Goddess F.

    
    Like Air Supply?

    
    	RE: Francine
    
    	If you're basing that reply on my recent reply, then no ... I'm
    	just "thinking out loud".
    
    	I mean, I love Air Supply, but even I wouldn't start a note on
    	them in here.  As long as it's hard rock, or "barely" H_M, then
    	I have no problem with it.  What the other moderators think re-
    	mains to be seen.
    
    							GTI
    

    
    	RE: Flip
    
    	Heh heh ... I wrote my reply before I even saw yours.
    
    	8^)
    
    							GTI

    
    
    But some of Elton John's songs are closely musically inclined to Air
    Supply.
    
    
    
    Goddess F.

    	Has anyone in here forgotten "common sense"??  This issue
    	has been raised over and over again and has yet to get any
    	kind of resolution so why not just let it rest??
    
    	Obviously bands such as Air Supply, Paula Abdul, etc. wouldn't
    	exactly be "accepted" here but this conference was created
    	so the bands that we like could be discussed without getting
    	picked apart by folks in MUSIC.  And now it happens here 
    	as well... guess ya can't win in either place huh?
    
    	RE: Paris Burning
    
    	He's got a point Mike... and what you consider HM and what
    	the rest of the world considers HM are undoubtedly two
    	different things...
    
    	Let it go.
    
    	tigg~~~~
    	

    
    
    	RE: Mike
    
    	What "label" would you put to Hendrix and Guns'n'Roses??
    
    	tigg~~

	RE: .152 

	To you maybe but even Page himself has stated something along
	the lines that they were more a folk band than H_M at least in
	terms of what it was at the time.  Sort of like in 1976 dollars 
	a la economic-lingo.

	- Jim

    No offense intended, but I wouldn't consider these bands HM:
    
   652   JANUS::FAGG          6-SEP-1989    41  Grand Funk Railroad
    
     Depends if you were listening to them before or after American Band.
    I say HM before, rock after.
    
    Chris D.
    
    p.s. No offense taken. 

    
    
    Mike, I think the bands you posted are definetly negotiable.  I agree
    that most are not heavy metal, but are hard rock.
    
    I don't think that Elton John is hard rock!  Its not even negotiable. 
    Its ridiculous.
    
    If there is an Elton John note in here, why can't there be a note on
    anyone in the music scene in here?
    
    
    Goddess F.

    I think we've hit a sore spot with the Goddess...

    re: Friz

    Your note was out of line, I delete it.  Go read the rules about
    insulting other noters.
    
    Clearly you've missed the point anyway.  The point is that *everyone's*
    defination of these various sub-genres of rock music is different, no
    consistant defination can be found, even among fans.  The implication
    is that it doesn't matter what gets discussed in here as long as people
    want to discuss it and it's in the general ballpark.
    
    FWIW, I believe that Mike's right, by many HMer's standards (mine
    included) virtually none of the bands he listed are HM, they are (at
    best) hard rock bands.   The only one I noticed that I'd take exception
    to is Judas Priest, who is IMO clearly heavy metal, but I'm not going
    to argue the point because IT DOESN'T MATTER!  
                               
    He didn't leave any of the Christian bands off the list.  If you had
    bothered to pay attention, you'd have seen them in his list (at least
    the few of them which actually have base notes in this conference,
    they're all lumped together in the "Christian HM" note).

    As far as him including your band in that list without having heard
    you, he has pretty good reason to do that because you have clearly
    described the kind of music which you play, and it's *not* heavy metal
    by my defination (or his apparently).  He's making no implications as
    to the quality of the music you (or any of those other bands) produce, 
    just talking about the "label" stuck on them.  Why are you making such
    a big deal out of it?

    And regarding Zep, as Jim says, they have never claimed to be or even
    *wanted* to be called a "heavy metal" band.  In fact, I rather imagine
    that if you told Robert Plant, Jimmy Page, or John Paul Jones that they
    were a "heavy metal band" they would be insulted!  They certainly never
    did any music which I'd ever call "heavy metal".   They were a rock and
    roll band, and a good one at that.  
    
    Gh
                                        

FWIW/IMHO,

Over *Half* of this conference is crap anyway.  9/10's of the 
replies/topics are gibberish about someones preference in shampoo 
(today), or if Adam Curry is cute, or some party someplace...
If we (mods) deleted everything that was off-base, or not heavy metal,
there would be 700+ topics all with one or two replies.

So... who cares if there is a Elton John topic or not ??   It'll get cluttered
up with garbage just like the other topics that do relate.

:)

    Salon Selectives rool!

Well, for what its worth - thats what I use - "FOR DRY, THINNING or 
PERM'd hair"

:)

    
    	And I've said this before, but I'll say it again:
    
    	I don't care what kind of music a DEC band plays ... if they want
    	to announce an upcoming gig in here, or start a note about their
    	band, then I'm all for it.  We can't do enough, IMO, to promote a
    	fellow employee's band.
    
    							GTI

    Greg: Really I could care less if you deleted it.
                               Frizkid
    

    
    Makes no difference to me. I do think we should draw the line somwhere,
    but I have a finger that will alow me to hit Next Unseen when I come to
    the Elton John/or other type topic (unless there's a chance I
    can rathole it. ;')  
    
    I can see where Hard Rock is included and some of the bands that Mike
    listed (old ones especially) are HEAVY influences. Yeah I know Buck, ;)
    Elton influenced a bunch of metal. Well I see bands thanking Zep and
    Hendrix for influence, but I have never seen Elton John.
    
    Anyway... I don't give a crud, cuz I have a comma key on my key pad.
    
    
    Chris 

>    Leave it to Greg to bring folks back down to earth (thanks dude!).
    
    Earth?  Wherezat?

    
    It's in a galaxy far-far away.

    
    
    SO, the rules is this, you can start a topic on anyone you like in
    here, because anyone can hit NEXT UNSEEN if they don't like it.  
    
    I want to get this straight.
    
    
    
    
    Goddess F.

 >  SO, the rules is this, you can start a topic on anyone you like in
 >  here, because anyone can hit NEXT UNSEEN if they don't like it.  
 
    I nominate the above for 'Sentence of the year'!
    

	Greg in '92!

	

    Earth in '92!

    Greg....Are you Pro-Earth? 8)
                 Frizkid
    

    I'm really lost.  WTFC!?!  You guys are wasting time, money, and disk
    space arguing over something that isn't even worth arguing about...  If you
    want to enter a topic, enter it!  I entered Urban Dance Squad and they
    are definitely NOT heavy metal.  That's because I like 'em.  If you
    don't that's fine, NEXT UNSEEN works wonders!  I see nothing wrong with 
    expressing your musical interests...isn't that what this conference is 
    for!?  I think some people just like to argue...that's sad.  I'm sure
    we all have work we could be doing as opposed to noting anyway.  
    
    Man, you people need to listen to more Deee Lite.  8)
    
    'pril

    Hey guys, April mentioned disk space, is she getting technical on us. 
    
    8^)
    
    Our little noter is growing up <sniff>, why I remember when I first
    taught her how to extract text from another note. <sniff> 

    Don't cry Jesse.....I'll never do that to ya! 8)
    
                    Frizkid
    

    <sniff> Thank you Friz, <sniff>, I knew I could count on you <sniff>...
    
    
    TO STAY DUMB!!!!!   
    
    
    many 8^)

    
    I hope frizzy never get's smart... he might start listening to good
    music and THEN WHO WOULD WE CALL POSER....
    
    I guess Buck is always there... 
    
    
    Chris
    ;') x the number of thumbs in the world.

    Thanks guys.....Duhhhhh  I think. 8)
    
    
                  Frizkid
    

    I look at it this way:
    
    I. ROCK MUSIC
    	A. ROCK a BILLY
    	B. ROCK n'ROLL
    	C. POP ROCK (soft rock too)
    	D. HARD ROCK (BLUES too)
        E. Southern ROCK (nowadays it called Country)
        F. FUZION (JAZZ/ROCK)
    	G. PUNK ROCK
    	H. HEAVY METAL (METAL)
    	I. THRASH
    	J. ALTERNATIVE ROCK
    
    Kind of an evolutionary scale at that !?
    Granted, Alterative and HM are closely related,
    as Thrash and HM too...
    
    BAND		code
    -----               -----
    Elvis	   	A,B
    Beatles             B,C
    Stones		B,C
    Springstein         C
    Deep Purple         D
    Cream               D
    Doors		D
    LED ZEP		D,H
    Hendrix		D,H
    Alaman Bros         E
    Marshall Tucker     E
    ZZ TOP 		E
    Black Sabath	H
    Steppenwolf		D,H
    KINKs		C,G
    Steely DAN		F
    Jeff Beck		F
    Ramones		G
    X			G
    B52's		G
    Stray Cats		B
    Police		C
    Cheap Trick		C
    Van Halen		H
    Stevie RAY V.	D
    Metalica		H,I
    OSSY Osborn		H
    Dam Yankees         H
    White Snake		D
    Black Crowes	D
    Def Lepard		D 	
    Bullit Boys		H
    GnR			H
    Stone Roses 	J
    S.T.P.		J
    Pantera		I
    Tool		I
    Extreeme		H,J
    Ywigie Malstein     H
    Toadies		J
    Nirvanna		G,J
    
    GO AHEAD , ADD ON!! (or debate if you like)...
    
    Tom
    
    
    
    		
    
    

    
    	If you're going to outline the musical genres, you have to create
    	subsets also ... Thrash is a subset of Heavy_Metal.
    
    	You should also add "funk", for Prince, Scatterbrain, Funhouse
    	and other bands that are similar.  Extreme would also fall into
    	this category [I think].
    
    	And why would you say that alternative and heavy_metal are
    	similar?  Do They Might Be Giants really sound like Testament?
    

    RE:.183
    It just seems simpler to give seperate topics which allows
    you to "color the group" more easily... in other words-
    Many bands are a "blend" of two or more styles...It's unfair
    to use a one name label nowadays..
    
    FUNK, yes it's one I forgot, and DISCO too! Extreme? They are a good
    reason for blending the definitions.. For example they cover styles 
    from Harry Connick JR. to VanHalen...  Also, FUNK as well as DISCO
    (GAG) may be found within many ROCK groups.FOr example, Even PINK 
    FLOYD does DISCO in their album "THE WALL".
    
    Alteranive to me is "Seatle Style ROCK" in origin....Now what some
    record company's call alterative is what I call "POP". I'm just
    using my own personal definition when I hear the word "alterative"
    It's just not as HEAVY (meaning les of that BIG GUITAR sound) also
    it my version of "alternative" means a 90's version on HARD ROCK...
    so I would say the three groupings 1.HARD ROCK 2. METAL 3. ALTERNAITVE
    could be closely related. For example a The Beatles "White Album"
    contains the song "HELTER SKELTER" which I call METAL, yet other songs
    are quite mellow...some HARD ROCK , SO I give the ALBUM a "POP" 
    rating overall because of the MIX....
    
    I guess if you wanted we could establish some definitions of the
    boundaries of each classifaction using known songs as guidlines.
    
    For example:
    HARD ROCK bordering on METAL is CREAM, Jimi Hendrix ???
    HARD ROCK is DOORS, Pink Floyd,Led Zep ,Deep Purple ??  
    POP would be The Beatles, The Stones, Billy Joel, Doobie Brothers,
        Pat Bentar ,The Police, Eagles, Tom Petty, BOSTON ??
    HARD ROCK bordering on POP would be RUSH, BAD CO ???
    
    I'm hoping that the more suggestions we get, the more we can agree on
    where to adjust the boundaries....It's tough Group by group,
    perhaps song by song.....???
    
    Tom
    
    
    Hardrock bordering
     

    ummmmm....I listened to em this weekend...and they are are about
    as heavy metal as Meatloaf is underweight...not very.  ;)
    
    Shane, who chisled out his car Sat afternoon