Conference napalm::guitar

    Mark,
    
    Check out the KDX200::HOME_STUDIO conference... hit KP7 or SEL to add
    to your notebook...
    
    jc

    RE: 3157.0
    
    Mark, I got a Yamaha MT4X 4 track cassette for Christmas. The retail
    was $599.00 and I paid $499.00 for it at Allied Music in New Orleans.
    I compared the TASCAM 424 PortaStudio, TASCAM Porta 07 and Marantz
    PMD720. If you can get the November '95 issue of Keyboard Magazine,
    they reviewed many 4&8 multi-tracks.
    
    I settled on the MT4X (and I knew nothing about multi-track
    recorders)because it offered two speeds (9.5and 4.8 cm/sec) 4
    individual mic/line inputs assignable to separate tracks and 3 band
    Equalizer.
    
    It was a tough decision - the TASCAM's and the Marantz have similar
    features. I am inpressed with the MT4X's results - my recordings are
    are crude (because of my playing - every mistake on rhythm or lead
    seems to standout.) The MT4X just seemed to be the best deal
    comparing features/price.
    
    Leo
    to really stand out 
    

    Tascam and Fostex are the two biggest names.  Marantz and Yamaha also
    offer units.  There's also a company named Vesta or Vestax (or
    something like that)-- but the concensus seems to be to avoid them
    (although they have a cheap disk-based Digital system that's supposed
    to be OK).
    
    Prices start at about $250-$300 (street price) and head up to 
    about $1000.
    
    What do you get as the price goes up?
    
    	o Multiple tape speeds (normal, double, and half-- double == best
          fidelity)
    
        o Better noise reduction (dbx or Dolby C vs Dolby B)
    
        o Ability to defeat noise reduction on one channel for
    	  MIDI sync purposes
    
        o Ability to record on all four tracks at once (cheaper 
    	  units can only record on two)
    
        o More flexible mixer, including one or more effects loops
    
    	o More inputs, XLR inputs 
    

    And make SURE you get one with direct outs for each track...If you have
    a stroke genius during a drunken jam, you can bring it to a pro studio
    and use THEIR mixer and THEIR thousands of $$ of outboard gear.
    
    There was a band here at DEC called contagious who produced an AWESOME
    demo that they (Carefully) recorded on a Tascam 488.  Then they plugged
    it into a Neve for post.  :-)  It came out EXCELLENT!!! 
    
    I later heard many toons from that tape that had been re-recorded at a
    pro joint on either a digital machine or a 2" 24 track...And it wasn't 
    that much better than the cassette they did in their living room...Just
    more expensive.
    :-)
                   

>    There was a band here at DEC called contagious who produced an AWESOME
>    demo that they (Carefully) recorded on a Tascam 488.  
    
    I'm recording the Metropolis (or "the band formerly known as
    Metropolis" since we found another band with that name) demo on a 488,
    although we'll probably do the mixdown on a 688 I have on loan.
    
    I also recorded the db wilfred band's demos on a Yamaha MT1X and
    I think the audio quality of that compares to anything I've heard
    in the way of local band demos.   Many other folks have agreed with
    that - including one track that was on a GUITAR notes tape that was
    reviewed by various noters.
    
    My take on using a professional studio is this:  
    
    The main advantage to them is not the gear or the room, it's the
    KNOWLEDGE you get with their recording engineer!
    
    Knowing how to use compression, limiters, EQ, de-essers, etc and how to
    deal with things like mic placement and stuff like that is what 97%
    of what it takes to get a good-sounding tape.   You don't need a 
    $5k board or $10k worth of rack-mount gear or whatever.   
    
    Put another way: knowledge and good ears is more important than gear.  
    In fact, the gear is totally useless without the knowledge.  Maybe even
    "dangerous" without the knowledge.
    
    	db

BTW:  I think Dolby S is comparable to dbx.  Dbx really
works great.  (I've never tried Dolby S).

Dolby B and C are about the same - in my opinion they do
almost nothing - some think they do more harm than good.

I've seen used 4 tracks at Daddy's in Nashua.

    RE: .5
    
    I couldn't agree with you more Dave!
    
    
    	Fred

    
    Yeah, all that is well and good. But the fact is that a 4 track
    cassette has about -- what a 65db dynamic range? -- whereas the
    media everyone uses these days (CDs that is) has a theoretical
    limit of 96, and a more practical number around 85. That's a
    huge difference in the noise floor. And, I'm sorry, but there's
    just no way on God's green earth that a Quadraverb is going
    to sound like a Quantec. All this "sounds just as good" stuff
    is, in my opinion, a bunch of baloney...

    What it really boils down to is: "what are you going to do with
    what you're recording?" If you're recording a demo, a 4 track
    is fine! If you're recording an album, it's bloody well not fine!
    And yes, a 4 track in the hands of Bob Clearmountain  is better
    than the same machine in the hands of Beevis and Butthead; on the
    other hand, as talented as Bob is (and we know he'd squeeze every
    db out of it), it's still a cassette!! My point is, just be
    realistic about the quality you expect... and if it doesn't
    sound any better in an SSL/Studer room than it does on your
    PortaPotty, er, PortaStudio, then something might be wrong! :-)

    What's really a shame is when wide-eyed kids (and not so
    kids, as in the case of a drummer we all know and love) spend
    thousands of dollars recording crappy songs and crappy performances
    in million dollar facilities! Like that's going to make it
    "better" somehow...

    -b

    I agreed with Brian...And with Dave, sorta.  :-)
    
    First, you're right db, it's not the gear, but ones ears won't do you
    much good if you've got a stomp box compressor, or as Brian said, a 
    QuadraVerb.
    
    In my comments that spurred your notes, I ASSumed that one would bring
    their 8-track demo cassette to a PRO, not some jamoke (is that a word?)
    who THINKS he's a PRO.  This assumes good ears AND good gear.  
    
    You'll definately get better results using direct outs to a Neve with a 
    rack of pultecs and such next to it than you will with a Quadraverb and 
    the questionable Tascam built-in mixer (which boost your noise floor even 
    more!)...Especially the latter.  
    
    PLUS you won't have to pay for tracking time in some $50/hour room.
    
    I might even recommend that Metropolis bring their machine and finished
    tapes to Metropolis for post...  He's got AN *awesome* rack of gear,
    and GREAT ears (from what I heard).  Ask Rob - I was there with him
    and Alan Starr.
    
    jc
                  

    While the conversation in the past few notes is interesting, I
    think we've headed off on a bit of a tangent.  Mark is looking
    for a pretty basic setup:
    
      "I just want a basic 4 track that I can record a couple of guitar 
      parts on, I don't need anything amazing really. I wil be using both
      acoustic and electric guitars (clean & distorted)."
    
    Given that, I'd say about any of the units offered by Tascam, Fostex,
    Yamaha, or Marantz would meet his needs.  He might be better off 
    with a simple entry level unit to figure out how much he's going
    to use it, and if he needs anything more complicated.  Maybe it will
    be all he ever needs, or maybe he'll decide he really needs an 8-track
    ADAT, or whatever.  No sense in going overkill from the start (IMO).
    
    On the other hand, if he has the money spend, I think we'd all agree
    that better noise reduction, double speed operation, EQ on each
    channel at mix-down, direct outs (and ins) for each channel, etc.
    are all great things to have.  But as a simple scratch pad for
    practicing and for-the-fun-of-it demos, an entry level unit 
    is fine (and for a beginner, maybe better, since it undoubtedly
    will be easier to use).
    
    Now if he wants to record demos for even semi-professional use (like
    a sample recording of a GB band to play for potential customers), 
    then I'd definitely recommend a unit like the Tascam 424 or better.
    I just don't get the impression that he's looking to do anything
    that complicated.
    
    Jim
    
    BTW, as another noter pointed out, when I said Dolby C in .2, I 
    meant Dolby S.

    I too would recommend the Tascam 424, simply because if you ever
    decided to SELL it (for that ADAT :-), then you'd get some resale...

    I think the misunderstanding here is a) that Brian is talking about
    CDs as the "media everyone uses" and I am talking about cassettes
    and b) he's talking about demos to shop to record companies, and
    I'm talking about demos to shop to club-owners, wedding clients, etc.
    
    Things are changing fast and without a doubt CDs are becoming 
    the "media everyone uses" but in my experience, that's not close
    to 100% true right now.   Cassettes are still in very wide use
    at least for the kind of demos I'm talking about (to send to club
    owners) due to the large minimum order requirements most CD mastering
    places require (500 in my experience, although you can find places
    that'll do a lot less for a lot more money per CD).
    
    But my main claim was that "knowledge" was more important than
    equipment to get the first 97%.   And I will claim that the 
    db wilfred demo "sounds better" (audio-wise) than a lot of CD
    demos that I've heard.
    
    It has noise, but so what.  I took the time to ask about a half dozen
    club-owners where they listen to the demo tapes and most of them
    replied "in the car on the way home".  A couple of other said they
    listened at home or at work... on a BOOM BOX!!!!!
    
    Who the hell gives a damn about "noise floor" in those kind of
    listening environments?
    
    A good recording studio starts at about $25/hour.  My studio costs
    about 75 cents an hour (I'm figuring heat/electricity).   I MUCH prefer
    being able to take my time to get a performance I'm happy with without
    knowing that each take costs me $5 in studio time!
    
    So... another one of my "low budget" philosophies is that IF YOU KNOW
    WHAT YOU'RE DOING, the potential audio quality of a home recording
    setup (as opposed to a pro studio) is high enough such that the
    advantages of a Pro studio  are overshadowed by the advantages of
    being able to take your time and do the best job your capable of
    without the constraints of an expensive running clock.
    
    And ironically, this isn't much of an issue for me - a keyboard player
    - cause what I would do if the band wanted to use a pro studio is
    to sequence my parts on my own time so I wouldn't be using studio
    time for getting the parts down anyway.
    
    Another approach I think people oughta consider is to ENTIRELY record
    their demo on their 8-tracks (I'm not going make much of an argument
    for 4-tracks because you can't record a demo on it without bouncing),
    then fly the demo into the studio and record things that didn't work
    out at home.
    
    My own personal opinion is that  recording studios have REAL
    strong advantages in the area of drum tracks and vocals, but not guitar
    and not bass and not keyboards.
    
    It's never been easy for me to record drums on my 8-track.  Some of
    the db wilfred tracks sound very good IMHO but a) I think that was
    luck, b) I have no illusions that they wouldn't have been MUCH better
    if we had more good mics and a good room, and c) I think the particular
    drum kit that we used has always sounded real good to me thru PA's and
    on tape.   In fact, they were used at a DECjam before I even knew the
    drummer (Willy Wiegler) and I remember sitting in the audience and 
    thinking "I have never heard drums sound so good in a club like this".
    
    So I think the availability of a good room and good mics in a studio
    gives studios an insurmountable edge of home setups.
    
    The thing with vocals (at least to these ears) is those Neuman mics.
    They just seem to do a WHOLE lot better than any mic under $1000.
    
    As far as reverb and processing goes (which Brian mentioned), I may be
    biased but I think the Roland SRV-2000 comes AWFULLY close to anything
    I've heard in the studio.   But then... it's easy to forget that
    although they can be had now for under $500, they originally sold for
    well over $1000 so while they appear in low-end studios these days,
    it may not be fair to describe it as a low end unit.   
    
    I'll tell you this - the last piece of gear in my studio that I would
    sell is my SRV-2000 (sorry Fred).   I just love what that thing can
    do to a track.  I don't even take it to gigs anymore cause I'd hate
    for anything to happen to it.
    
    So... this has been awfully longwinded but... It thought I'd give my
    opinion.  I don't claim to be an expert, and I do recognize Brian
    as an expert, but I think the standards of comparison he's using may
    be higher than needed in many circumstances.
    
    I think we both agree that a 4-track in the hands of an expert is going
    to sound better than a 48-track digital in the hands of someone who
    doesn't know what they're doing.
    
    Thankfully, there aren't many 48-track digitals in the hands of such
    people.  ;-)
    
    	db

    
    Looks like more violent agreement to me db!
    
    All I really have to add is that as I've moved away from the
    usual home quality demo stuff, to the semi-pro stuff, and now
    (due to the fact I'm trying to run a commercial enterprise)
    to some of the more esoteric pro stuff, I must admit that there
    are simply things that I could never have dreamed of back
    when I started. I could always make thing sounds good, but
    there's really no comparison when it comes to tracking a
    bass guitar through a studio-quality mic pre/compressor,
    and gating it with a bass drum miced with a condensor mic that
    itself costs more than 10 times what a PortaStudio costs.
    
    The point is, that as the music industry moves toward project
    studios, we may be losing a certain sonic quality that will
    never be recaptured. Now that I'm getting into the world
    of the stuff like Focusrite and TC and Drawmer and Quantec,
    I really do hear a big difference. I think the world is
    becoming conditioned to the point to say "yeah, it's done on
    a Mackie and an ADAT, but it's good enough". It may well be,
    but the result is that the whole record buying public is
    actually being downgraded in their sonic expectations.
    
    Eventually, the few remaining places you ca go to get that
    "ultimate sound" are going to fold and we'll all be left
    listending to the very best you can do with an ADAT and a
    Mackie, and in my opinion, that's a sad thing...
    
    Oh well.
    
    -b

    re: .13
    Interesting viewpoint - and well put.
    I am more excited, though, about the availability of good quality
    audio gear to average consumers instead of only a select few able
    to buy a inferior 4track (what were they, 4430's)??  I forget.
    
    The ability to buy and use a multitrack machine is releasing an 
    explosion of creativity.    Plus it was a pain to bounce tracks back
    and forth between two cassette decks and pretend it's a multi.  :)
    
    For you side, though, I believe the high end studio will always exist.
    We may have only a dozen in the nation some day, but they will not 
    disappear.
    Mike
    

>    I am more excited, though, about the availability of good quality
>    audio gear to average consumers instead of only a select few able
>    to buy a inferior 4track (what were they, 4430's)??  I forget.
    
	If you are refering to a Teac 3440 reel to reel with a dbx unit,I
seriously doubt any 4 track cassette is going to match the capabilities
of the 3440. The dbx unit with these machines provides significant improvement
in tonal quality and the wider format and frequency range also makes a 
difference. The "Sonic Quality" plain doesn't compare especially in the the 
high end. The warm analog sound of one of these decks is worth the extra 
hassles and if you match it up with a decent quiet mixer you can produce some
quality recordings. 
	If your just using a deck to record a bar band for some guy to listen
to on a boom box or just capture ideas a four or eight track cassette will
do the trick. But I would not consider a 3440 inferior,it has a lot to offer.
	I have not seen too many 3440's and DX9's for sale,but there has
always been an abundance of 3340's and model 44's and 38's.
	

							Rick