Conference napalm::guitar

    re: .1
    Now don't put ideas into their heads... ;-)
    
    Whatever this note is destined to become, the original question *was*
    serious!
    
    Dom

    Just get a Country gig ... a definite no-brainer!!
    ;')
    
    Now , iffn you were talkin Prog Rock...

    Dom
    
    I am in an almost identical situation with a blues band in Cannes
    (France).  I got a tape and had to learn all the bass parts. 
    There are not many chords in the songs but there are a lot of riffs
    played synchronously with the lead guitar and the songs have to be
    learned quite precisely.
    
    I took a sheet of paper for each song and wrote down the basic form
    while listening to it (not playing).
    Usually this was based on 12-bar (blues) or 16-bar (rock) units.
    For example:
    
    Intro 12 bars x 2
    
    Verse 1 
    Verse 2
    Guitar solo x 2
    Verse 3
    Harmonica solo
    Intro x 2 repeat 
    
    
    Where necessary I wrote down the chords for each bar. For example for
    Stevie Ray Vaughan's "Mary had a little lamb" it was something like:
    
    Intro 12 bars x 2
    E     |A    |E    |E
    A      A     E     E
    B      A     E     E   B
    
    Verse 1   (8 bars)
    A      A     E     E
    B      A     E     E
    etc
    
    I also pencilled in bits of riffs etc as best I could, just writing
    down the notes A B C etc and hoping I would remember the rhythm.
    
    I was thinking of printing a sort of grille or matrix (4x4) where I
    could simply write the chords into the boxes for each verse.
    
    I would help a lot to have all the words written down as they form a
    good foundation for writing down the rest of the song.
    
    Another thing: I learn 4 new songs for each rehearsal. I suggest you
    concentrate on getting a few exactly right, rather than half-knowing
    all 18.
    
    And when you go to the next rehearsal and play the songs as you learned
    them, they will say:  "Oh yes, we don't do that one like the record. We
    chnaged the intro and added an extra solo ...." That's what happened to
    me, anyway.
    
    Regards
    
    John
    
    

    How do I get my way thru a set?
    
    That's easy.
    
    I never take my eyes off Fred.  ;-)
    
    But seriously, we don't do songs the same way every time nor would I
    want us to.  We're VERY prone to add a new intro, another solo,
    delete a solo, do it "jazzed" if noone is dancing or do it "straight"
    if they are, improvise an ending, we CONSTANTLY improvise accents,
    and just improvisation in general, etc.
    
    It's not accurate to say that "we don't have 'arrangements'" but it's
    an understatement to say that we follow them loosely.
    
    However...  I only think this "works" for us because we've been playing
    together so long that we can almost read each others minds.  We also have
    a set of signals that just evolved over time.  Some of the signals are
    "signature licks", some of them are body language, some of its eye
    contact, some of its hand signals, sometimes we actually SAY what
    we're going to do ("one more time", etc.).   And of course, one thing
    is that everyone in the band listen's to what everyone else is playing
    and of course, I think EYE CONTACT is one of the most under-rated
    means of improving a bands sound.
    
    Ironically, NONE of these signals is something we've ever consciously
    "worked out".  It's just stuff that comes from playing with the same
    group of folks for a long time.   Oddly enough, even though the
    arrangements are loose, I think we sound VERY tight just because
    we're all on the same page even though it's done "dynamically" in
    "real-time" almost automatically without thinking about it these days.

    re: .4,.5
    Thanks a lot for the suggestions.
    
    John, 
    That was *exactly* what I was getting at - and it also makes a lot more
    sense than the way I'm doing things at the moment! I'll stick to 4 or 5
    songs as you suggested (and Murphy's Law says that I'll choose only
    those ones that the band now does in a different key from the version
    on the cassette!). 
    
    Dave,
    Actually, what you wrote is probably the next step on from what I was
    asking. I still need to get the songs down off pat. Hopefully, once
    I've done that I can start on learning arrangements and worrying about
    how the band "communicate" onstage (hell, I haven't even got the gig
    yet!)
    
    All good, helpful stuff, though.
    
    Dom
    

    Re .5
    
    Dave - in watching you guys play I've observed many of those 'signals'
    by which you communicate, and most of their meanings. The one I haven't
    yet figured out is the "Dave jumps up and down behind the keyboards".
    A wild guess might be "skip the 3rd verse to end the set quicker 'cos
    my teeth are floating". Or not.
    
    /Jimi :-)

    > The one I haven't yet figured out is the "Dave jumps up and down behind
    > the keyboards". A wild guess might be "skip the 3rd verse to end the
    > set quicker 'cos my teeth are floating". Or not.
    
    No, that one means "check out the blond over by the bar".  ;-)
    
    	db

    I think the real problem is that most of the songs mentioned in .0 are
    from the fifties instead of the sixties. No wonder you're confused.
    
    Danny W.

    I've had to do this a couple of times (for bands that never really
    worked out, but hey, the learning's about the same).
    
    I basically get the tapes and lock myself in a room with a cassette
    deck, preferably one with variable pitch so that I don't have to retune
    my guitar for every song someone recorded using their off-speed
    cassette decks...
    
    Similar to what someone said a few notes back, I take a little notebook
    and start by listening to the song through a couple of times, writing
    down the structure.  Then I get the guitar and figure out the chords
    for each section and write those down.  Then I listen for any signature
    fills/riffs and make tab notes of those.
    
    I usually do that for all the songs I have to learn and then go back
    and play along with each of them a couple of times.  After that I start
    worrying about the solos.  I'm not all that great at learning solos and
    almost never play them note-for-note anyway, so that part usually takes
    a long time for me, but getting notes on the song structure and the
    chords up front makes a big difference for me.  Note that I also write
    down the chord changes under the solos.  Makes it easier for me to
    learn if I know what it's going over.
                                         
    The first few times with the band, I use my notes.  Glance over them
    before starting the song and trying to not look at them much while we
    play it.  I try to phase the notes out over time.
       
    Greg

Do any bands have records of the structure and chord changes of the songs they
play?  Surely someone figured these out once.  Is the figuring out of the 
chords a test or does no one keep the records?

Curious Jim

    >I think the real problem is that most of the songs mentioned in .0 are
    >from the fifties instead of the sixties. No wonder you're confused.
    
    Point taken, although the majority of them (Love Potion No. 9, Brown
    Eyed Handsome Man, etc.) were standard fare for white 60s rock &
    roll/R&B bands. For the record, the rest of the set does include some
    bona fide sixties classics like Hippy Hippy Shake and Surfin' U.S.A.
    
    Re: .10  
    Thanks, Greg. Unfortunately, I haven't got access to the type of
    cassette recorder you mention, but there's some very good advice in
    your note all the same.
    
    Dom
    

    > Do any bands have records of the structure and chord changes of the
    > songs they play?  Surely someone figured these out once.  Is the
    > figuring out of the chords a test or does no one keep the records?
    
    I write out charts but almost entirely for my own benefit.
    
    In most of the bands I've played in, I guess you could say that it is
    kinda a "test".   That is, when looking for new members, I would not
    take someone who can not figure out his parts on his own.
    
    However, I recently bought a music transcription program (Encore by 
    Passport) to facilitate writing stuff out.  Some of the stuff that
    Metropolis (one of my bands) does is very intricate and it just seems
    pointless to have two people figuring out the same line, and possibly
    coming up with different results.
    
    Also, since we've had a somewhat "revolving door" with regard to
    players, I figure it might help to bring a new player up to speed
    to be able to give him transcriptions of some of the parts that might
    otherwise require more time to learn.

Wana hear my story...

I signed up with the band I'm currently with now (Elixir) and
the night I showed up, we blew through about 25/30 tunes,,,
(Alot of well known, if not overplayed at times covers,
some I've done before, some I know well, but never played,
--- hey gimme the box, I'll take it from there..  
Believe it or not, this 25/30 tunes included about 6 originals....
same deal, gimme the box..

Everything was going swimmingly, so we take a quick break,
they tell me, if I want the gig, then 'I'm da man..'
I say, he, WTF, why not, sounds like fun...  

Then they tell me that in 3 weeks, there's a gig booked, and
one week after that, another one......  'Hey, I'm there.."

I learned 45 tunes, leads, volcals what have you, and we
had 6 (s.i.x..) three hour practices......  A little pressure, but
just work through it,,,,  it's not that bad..

    re: .11
    
>Do any bands have records of the structure and chord changes of the songs they
>play?  Surely someone figured these out once.  Is the figuring out of the 
>chords a test or does no one keep the records?
    
    That's like asking if anyone in Digital has design specifications for
    software products...
    
    gh

   I've been here many times (new band and tons of tunes to learn).

   My method is 'nose to the grindstone'. First, I write out the words in my
  trusty notebook (I have five filled books now). This gives me the 
  structure of the tune. Listening close enough to the tune to get words
  also gives me an idea how the tunes goes. Second I sit down and learn
  my part (bass in this case) and usually write out the lines if it is a 
  walking part.

   After this, i repeated play along with the tune until I am comfortable
  I know what I'm doing.

   A lot of work? YES! But it has been successful for me.


      - Bob

    Hey Bob,
    
    Do you also sing the songs, or do you just write the words down as an
    exercise?  Is it worth doing if you're not going to sing 'em?
    
    Greg

    
    A couple of points to add....
    
    I find that as long as the stuff is written down in front of me I'll
    never learn it. By all means write the lyrics/chords etc down initially
    but then only use the info to check up on things. DON'T practice at
    home with the 'music' in front of you, the brain doesn't have to do any
    work.
    
    Another thing is age. I find I can remember all the lyrics and chords
    to obscure things I learnt way back in my teens with no trouble. For
    instance, I can still remember all the lyrics to 'Funny how love can
    be' which I saw written in a magazine in about 1966. I can learn
    something now and forget it within a couple of weeks. Most depressing!
    
    For chords, if they don't come naturally from a musical point of view,
    I see if there is a 'pattern' to follow on the frets. Its amazing how
    an apparent mixture of physically unrelated chords can form a physical
    pattern which is simply repeated.
    
    Richard
    	Basinsgtsoke, UK

    >>> Another thing is age. I find I can remember all the lyrics and chords
    >>> to obscure things I learnt way back in my teens with no trouble.

    You're not alone, Richard!

    Andrew

    
    Husband reading an article in the newspaper "Hmmm... listen to this.
    Says here that as you get older you tend to remember things that
    happened a long time ago but have difficulty with recent things".
    
    Wife says "That's interesting".
    
    Husband says "What is?"
    

    
    Re: .18
    
    I absolutely agree Richard. I'm the only member of my current band who
    doesn't have a music stand and some kind of guide notes in front of him
    when performing. Reading from notes (be they 'tadpoles', tablature or
    some uniquely personal aide memoire) will never get it into the brain.
    Use the notes as an initial guide by all means, but listen to the tape,
    play along and memorise .. (or 'memorize' for our trans-Atlantic
    cousins!) I've suggested to the others that they should not need the
    music by now, but they seem to be lost without it. We had ears and
    brains long before anyone invented any system for formally writing down
    the pitch and duration of a sequence of sounds. They *can* be relied on
    if you use 'em!
    
    Have a great day now y'hear.
    
    8-)
    

    
    A while back, when I still lived in Mass., I auditioned for and
    got the gig with a band called "Sully & No Exit". The audition was
    in the middle of the week and I started that Friday night. The band
    had a repetoire of about 150 songs. I don't know how, but I managed
    to pull it off. The method that works best for me is to start by 
    listening to the material over and over, ad nauseum, until it's
    ingrained in the grey matter. Once I can hear it in my head, I can
    usually transfer it to the bass fairly accurately. Then I start to 
    pick it apart and learn some of the more difficult passages that I 
    can't quite get by ear...
    
    /Billy_K

     <<< Note 2985.17 by GOES11::HOUSE "How could I have been so blind?" >>>
                             -< Interesting idea! >-

   
>>    Hey Bob,
    
>>    Do you also sing the songs, or do you just write the words down as an
>>    exercise?  Is it worth doing if you're not going to sing 'em?
    
>>    Greg


      I didn't sing at all but it seemed like a good way to force me to
    listen closely to the tune. This has been my 'method' for 25+ years and
    it seems to work for me.


	- Bob

   I also agree with (but didn't say so in my previous reply) that you should 
  learn the tune without getting used to following charts.

   It was my misfortune to have used the charts method at one point and felt
  very uncomfortable in not 'knowing' the tune because I relied on following
  the charts.

   - Bob

    I suddenly realised that I never got around to posting a note regarding
    how I resolved (or attempted to resolve!) the problem outlined in .0.
    (By the way, thanks for all the suggestions.)
    
    Well, we've got our first gig in 3 weeks time...or at least the first
    gig with the new guitarist (me) and the new drummer. The rest of the
    band have been gigging together for some 3-4 years. I've had to learn
    abot 40 songs in a month, although my task was facilitated by two
    things:
    
    1) I was already familiar with about half the songs, although I'd only
    played three of them in a band situation.
    
    2) The other members of the band are a great bunch, i.e. patient, but
    just pushy enough. Also, they're not afraid to point out when I'm doing 
    something wrong, without making a scene.
    
    In the end, I wrote out some rough charts for the songs I didn't know.
    I also wrote down the key of all the songs, together with a couple of
    comments for each (e.g. "accentuate upstrokes on rhythm" or "key
    changes up 1 semi-tone after solo". I'm still rusty on one or two of
    them, but then I've still got another three weeks, haven't I?!
    
    One thing that did pose a problem was my relative unfamiliarity with
    surf music (� la Dick Dale). About a quarter of the songs are surf
    instrumentals and although I knew a few of them (Pipeline, Surfin'
    Bird, Bonzai Washout), I'd never really given much thought to the
    rhythm guitar - "just turn up the reverb and play"! Well, I've
    discovered that my previous experience in R&B bands has led me to
    concentrate on playing chords on the top 4 strings, mixing in riffs
    with chords. Surf music requires you to strum these full, bell-like
    chords that leave plenty of space for the lead guitarist. Then again,
    the set also includes things like Poison Ivy, Route 66, Something Else,
    Do Wah Diddy, so there's plenty of space for my R&R/R&B tastes!
    
    Dom