| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 2892.1 | The SAGA continues..... | SALEM::DACUNHA | | Sat Feb 19 1994 06:42 | 40 |
|
Yeah...This has been quite a dilemma for me. The way I see it,
unless MOST of your original ACT (not necessarily the music ;'()
is simply kick-ass *entertainment* then your probably going to have
play at least half cover tunes. That's if you really want to make
any money. I have seen a lot of orig. bands that had particularly
lousy music, but are still received well by the audience. BECAUSE,
they were very entertaining to watch and "it had a good beat"
ON the other hand, I've seen bands that stood there like statues,
but played covers that everyone knew and played them to the T.
These bands will do well too. They give the audience something
familiar that they can dance to. Easy formula.
I guess it really matters WHERE you want to play, and what the
patrons want and expect to hear. There are a LOT of clubs around
where you can go in and do/play just about anything you want, BUT
don't expect to get payed, unless it's your second time there and
the first time you had the crowd on thier knees. (not with cramps)
You can look at it from all different perspectives, do you want to
play pop-rock on the eggroll circuit? Is that (in the words of a
buddy) "compromising your artistic integrity"?? Keep in mind,
an extra $100+ bucks/week. GB...weddings etc?? :') money :')
OR should you do your own thang for diddly......What I've found
that has worked well for most of my projects is: play covers to
get your foot in the door and use some of the time as a proving
ground for your originals. At least you'll know if a song is any
good, BTW don't say who wrote it until after you hear the
response!!! That way when you DO go to the all original gig your
tunes will already have been filtered, just work on the show a little
and whallah!!! Fame and fortune....heh heh
All this is moot, if your original music and presentation are
soooooo good that the masses throw tons of cash at your feet and
you have to hire security to keep the record execs from beating
down your, which is the whole point, right?
The bottom line....You CAN make decent money doing either!
|
| 2892.2 | | HEDRON::DAVEB | anti-EMM! anti-EMM! I hate expanded memory!- Dorothy | Mon Feb 21 1994 05:56 | 15 |
| My band has gone out over the last two years and established a good reputation
playing almost all originals (last count we do 6 covers but not all in one
night). Where I live (Maine) there is virtually no original music scene,
except down Portland way, and we've had a hell of a time trying to get booked
down there (except Geno's, and that's not worth it IMHO).
It's a hard choice sometimes, if you've gotta play, and there isn't anyplace to
do it, you've got to make the opportunities. At this time we're playing about
2 or 3 weekend a month and holding our own against the cover bands in 'their'
rooms. Here in Augusta we've become the biggest draw at one venue that's
all covers except for us.
If it's what you want to do, do it!
dbii
|
| 2892.3 | | DREGS::BLICKSTEIN | db | Mon Feb 21 1994 08:15 | 30 |
| This is both my opinion and my observation:
Start out doing covers. The first priority you have to have is
"exposure", develop a following.
Start adding originals, but try to keep a self-honest gauge of crowd
reaction to them. I.E. none of this "our originals are good even
if you're too stupid to recognize their quality".
If folks like your originals, then play more, if they don't, dump
the ones you have and write new ones.
Back in NJ, where I was first introduced to the live music circuit,
I can name about 20 bands that got started this way. Some of them
you may have even heard of (Blackfoot, Good Rats, Twisted Sister, etc.)
It's hard for me to think of one band I ever saw that started out
playing originals and lasted very long (although I'm sure it happens
all the time). The key is that people have to hear your originals
and to do that, they have to be drawn out to see you. I think
the best way to do that is cover gigs.
Also, my idea of a nightmare is playing originals to a bored house.
I see other bands do this and it seems almost piteous.
My first priority is making sure that folks in the audience are into
what I'm doing, because if they're not, it has an effect on me and
my playing.
db
|
| 2892.4 | %^) | NWACES::HICKERNELL | Drums must never stop! | Mon Feb 21 1994 08:51 | 8 |
| > My first priority is making sure that folks in the audience are into
> what I'm doing, because if they're not, it has an effect on me and
> my playing.
Yeah, it's sad - he gets the blues and forgets all the chords except
I-IV-V. Pathetic, really.
Dave
|
| 2892.5 | | GOES11::HOUSE | Like a cat caught in a vacuum | Mon Feb 21 1994 08:55 | 30 |
| My opinion and observation is that when bands play a majority of
covers, especially when they try to make the covers sound like the
original artist, their originals end up sounding like just another
cover. Yeah, they may be a decent crowd response, in the context of
the familiar songs people are hearing, but when you remove them from
that context, the songs sound pretty generic. I've seen this with
quite a lot of bands.
(Then again, some band's original songs sound that way regardless of
whether they're playing any covers or not...so it may not have anything
to do with the covers.)
My limited "experience" would say that if you're playing in a band and
the covers you play sound significantly better for you then the
originals you play, you should probably stick to the covers. If it's
the other way around, you should stick to the originals.
Seems to me that if you're playing originals, you can always play a few
covers, and do them any way you like...without anyone getting all bent
out about it. But if you're playing mostly covers, people seem to
expect you to play them with a fair degree of authenticity (to the
original artist). Personally, I don't like having that kind of
restriction. I don't fare well at playing exact covers (for whatever
reason, probably 'cause my playing sucks, perhaps because my attitude
about doing it sucks) and would prefer to have a little freedom to play
things the way I want. Guess that's the essence of why I've never been
in a working band...
Greg
|
| 2892.6 | | PAVONE::TURNER | | Mon Feb 21 1994 09:19 | 14 |
| re: .3
Good note, Dave - I agree with most of that. Actually, I think this is
a very important issue to which many new bands don't devote sufficient
attention. Further to this, I've seen a lot of bands detract from what
could have been a good gig by planning their set very poorly.
>Back in NJ, where I was first introduced to the live music circuit,
>I can name about 20 bands that got started this way. Some of them
>you may have even heard of (Blackfoot, Good Rats, Twisted Sister, etc.)
Come to think of it, the Beatles, the Stones, the Kinks and the Who (to
name but four) all started this way. Sounds like it's worth copying!
Dom
|
| 2892.7 | | BRAT::PAGE | | Mon Feb 21 1994 09:26 | 59 |
|
I've been in many rock bands, a couple country bands, a GB/Wedding
band, and a psychedelic '60's band (my favorite of the bunch). When I
left the last band I worked with (a country band), I decided enough
is enough.
I decided that if I was going to dedicate all those hours of
practice and rehearsal & spend so much money on equipment, I might as
well be playing the music that I really want to play-- which is
original material. I know there's no money in it, but what the heck--
I wasn't exactly getting rich on what I was making in cover bands.
I just feel the need to do something "more"...
I know alot of bands mix in some originals with their covers, but
I never felt that worked. I pretty much believe that you're either a
cover band or an original band-- I'm not much for the "cover-band-that-
plays-some-originals" situation. I think that if you start out as a cover
band, you're tagged as a cover band, and it's hard to shake that label.
Not that there's anything wrong with being a cover band... but if you
want to be an original band, I think you're heading down a path of
no return if you play primarily covers. You may develop a following
as a cover band, but once you start playing mostly originals, you'll
lose alot of your audience.
I know there's really nowhere to play around here (Southern N.H.
area) if you're an original band, but if you work hard, you can
scrounge up some gigs in the Boston area. For alot of people, that's
too far to drive for a $10 gig, but I'd rather be playing originals
for free to an originals-oriented audience than playing Madonna covers
or "Louie Louie" for the 1000th time on the Chicken Wing ciruit. I'm
willing to admit that I'm driven more by the ego gratification of playing
originals than by the money to be earned on the cover band circuit.
I don't believe for a minute that playing originals is somehow more
sacrosanct than playing covers. I'm just more interested in being in
a band that does it's own thing.
So, it's been about 2 years since I walked out of the cover band
situation... I invested alot of money in recording equipment so I could
work on laying down originals, which has worked out pretty well. But I
have had no luck meeting other musicians in order to put a band together.
Everyone is either already committed to a band, or they need the money
that a cover band earns them (as opposed to the next-to-nothing $$ they'll
make playing originals). Or they're just not the kind of people you'd
want to work with.
I'd like to get back into the Cover Song Business on a "part time"
basis; my playing is getting rusty from not gigging and I can use the
extra money too. I'd like to do a couple gigs a month. But I've got
to concentrate most of my time & energy towards "the original thing".
I'm still trying to put that band together, so if you're interested
doing original material, let me know!
Brad
|
| 2892.8 | | HEDRON::DAVEB | anti-EMM! anti-EMM! I hate expanded memory!- Dorothy | Mon Feb 21 1994 09:41 | 22 |
| re: .3
Yeah I was scared the first few gigs that we'd end up playing originals to a
bored house..
hasn't happened, instead we have people showing up, that we never noticed
before who sing the words along with us. It's more of a concert these days
than a club gig, and the house is always packed. If the crowd at our club
in Augusta gets any bigger they'll be turning them away in droves (we
filled to capacity both nights last weekend and some folks couldn't get in)
While trying not to sound like my head is big, I think we've got better
originals and a better band than the others around here who mix in a few
originals with a slew of covers. So db's advice is cool, if they don't
like 'em, dump 'em and write more...we've dumped a few ourselves.
We've also got very firm arrangements, no slop in our arrangements at all.
Every performance is as close to a mirror of the one before as we can
manage. If you're doing originals you need to try to appear to be "larger
than life" just like someone you'd pay $25 to see.
dbii
|
| 2892.9 | ramblin'... | COOKIE::S_JENSEN | | Mon Feb 21 1994 10:30 | 31 |
| >>If you're doing originals you need to try to appear to be "larger than life"
>>just like someone you'd pay $25 to see.
dbii has obviously played this game before. Assuming you can write
decent originals, I think this is probably *the key* if you want to be
able to play them somewhere. Actually, it doesn't hurt for a cover
band to adopt this philosophy either. The bands I've seen do well
(cover or original) always give me a sense of being overwhelmed. Like
if the club was any smaller, it would have exploded; it just couldn't
contain that band.
Lately we've been getting several national acts here playing the local
clubs and I get this feeling from them every single time. I almost
never get it from local cover or orginal bands. I mean, listening to
Scott Henderson tune his guitar was more intense than the band that
played the same place the night before....
I don't know the formula for "larger than life". On the individual
musician side, I think a good portion of it is being real confident
(but not overly so) in your level of musicianship. You don't have to be
Steve Morse or Joe Satriani, et. al., but whatever you do, you need to
do it well. It needs to be easy (second nature) for you. But none of
that counts if the band doesn't work well together -- and that's
usually just time playing together. Then there's the performance
(show) aspect; something I've never been very good at. Some bands are
just loads of fun to watch because of the show they put on. You never
even think that the last guitar solo was only so-so; you're just
completely wrapped up in the show. Never been a part of that sort of
band -- probably would have learned a lot if I had been.
steve
|
| 2892.10 | | HEDRON::DAVEB | anti-EMM! anti-EMM! I hate expanded memory!- Dorothy | Mon Feb 21 1994 11:30 | 29 |
| One thing I forgot and this is maybe the hardest part. If you're going to do
originals, it's gonna take some time to establish a name for yourself. It took
us two years to get our first paying gig, before that we played lots of benefits
etc. to accomplish two things: 1. get the band playing in front of people, 2.get
the name out and build that reputation. After two years we can pack a club in
the Augusta Maine area, anywhere else we're just another band. I figure
it'll take another couple of years to do the same anyplace in Maine.
It's a hard road, it has been for us, chock full of big nails to put holes in
the band, but anything else is just playing for fun and spare change. (no
offense intended to any noters in cover bands, some of you guys have chops for
days...)
Larger than life: yeah what is that anyway? I'm no Satriani, but people respond
well to my solos, we move around, we have fun, we make sure people know we're
having fun, we try to get them into having fun with us, essentially we play
to the audience and we try to play the audience. we dress for the gigs, and
we try to get clothes that fit the part (I got this silk shirt habit these days
that's gonna break me). It's all part of that big image. The band has to decide
what the image is and then play the part, if you're grunge then wear clothes
that fit the image, metalheads get leather/studs etc...we're more the Brian
Adams image, so we take the rocker next door look.
Last be professional, show up on time, have gear that works, start/stop on time
etc.
good luck!
dbii
|
| 2892.11 | dbii is definitely bigger than life onstage | RICKS::CALCAGNI | kant sheck dees bluze | Mon Feb 21 1994 12:18 | 12 |
| Hmmm, yeah I have to agree with the "larger than life" aspect; I never
really thought about it that way before, but it's true. To my mind, it
means projecting the image that what you're doing is really special to
you; that kind of attitude is infectious and that's what I think the
audience picks up on. I don't think you have to necessarily have to
jump around a lot, in fact phony stage moves and insincere patter
("are you ready to ROCK!!!") can be as off-putting as playing in the
corner to your shoes. Have fun, or at least look like you are, do what
comes natural. If you're not having fun up there, what're you doing up
there anyway?
/rick
|
| 2892.12 | | GOES11::HOUSE | Like a cat caught in a vacuum | Mon Feb 21 1994 12:23 | 9 |
| > in fact phony stage moves and insincere patter
> ("are you ready to ROCK!!!") can be as off-putting as playing in the
> corner to your shoes.
Worse, as far as I'm concerned. I hate posing. I don't mind if
someone's into it and is jumpin around or whatever, but if it looks
phoney, it bugs me.
Greg
|
| 2892.13 | | HEDRON::DAVEB | anti-EMM! anti-EMM! I hate expanded memory!- Dorothy | Mon Feb 21 1994 14:03 | 18 |
| This is a topic I can go on and on about...
We have a number of things formalized:
we have a business plan, we review it quarterly for progress and to make sure
everyone is working their tasks, we have assigned people for things like:
bookings (Andy)
pa/lights (Ed , we rent)
promotional materials (dbii)
etc.
If your goal is to play originals and take it as far as you can go you've gotta
get organized and stay organized
dbii
|
| 2892.14 | WOW MAN! | JUPITR::NLAMOUREUX | STORMIN'NORMAN | Mon Feb 21 1994 15:03 | 72 |
| "SO WHAT DO I SAY?"
#1.] You do it 'cause you've got NO choice! You're HOOKED!
If you're doin' it for the money find something else!
The ONLY thing worse than playing MUSIC is NOT!
#2.] If you're NOT yourself then you'll always be 2nd best and
that goes in all aspects of LIFE!
Now we're gonna be Led Zepplin, Now we're gonna be like Joe
Satriani, now we're gonna sound like 2nd BEST!
#3.] If you LOVE what you're doin', then you're GONNA be into it
and if you're into it then the AUDIENCE will be INTO it!
If you're fakin' it you're GONNA lose!...guarenteed!
#4.] If you do covers, as Stevie Ray Vaughn did, and he was
"kinda" like a real good guitarist, then you may call it a
TRIBUTE to so & so and you'd better do a reall good job at
it!
#5.] Kids are REAL smart today, especially when it comes to Rock
'n Roll and if you think you're gonna FOOL them then you're
really dreamin'.
You can always stay in BARS for the rest of your life and
play for DRUNK ADULTS who haven't got a clue either way!
#6.] Actually, there are NO rules or REGULATIONS in Rock'n Roll, so
you can actually do whatever you want; when you want; if you
want, anyway you want!
The key is...........WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO?
#7.] I would think the answer is very simple?
You really WANT to be an Original Artist, just like those
people you've admired ALL your life and will keep on admiring
especially if you're sittin' on the couch for the remainder
of your short existence!
#8.] Like the "Good Book" says, "Seek and Ye Shall Find"!
Practice alot; learn to play; copy other artist for 5 to 10
years; buy high quality equipment that will make you sound
good; ADVERTISE to audition people for your same tastes, and
things will eventually work out.
#9.] Like OUR mentor, FRANK ZAPPA said, "if you can put up with
ALL the bullshit, it's the RIGHT thing to do!"
He also stated, "The average guy is a DORK, but remember,
it's ALWAYS a personal choice!"...and he's right! [I.M.O.]
#10.] Found that people MOST definately would rather hear someone
play and ORIGINAL song badly, WITH FEELING, than to hear
someone do a cover song to the "T".
#11.] THEN THERE'S REALITY!
If you're workin' a day gig, and you're married, and try to
come across to people like you've ALREADY made it then you're
really gonna have some hard lessons to learn!
There's TWO realities in SHOWBIZ......
A.] Playin' music part time. [FOR FUN?]
B.] Playin' music for a LIVING!
One's REAL and one AIN'T!
#12.] So what about Me?
I'm workin', married, have kids, but I AIN'T playin' music
for FUN, even though I love it, it's real hard work, and I'm
playin' like my LIFE may depend on it someday, or more like,
"Gee, it'd sure be nice to get out of DECworld!"
" HOLD ON TIGHT TO YOUR DREAMS "
SKIPP TRACER
of
"DrIVen maD"
|
| 2892.15 | | QRYCHE::STARR | Everyone wants something beautiful.... | Mon Feb 21 1994 15:47 | 19 |
| Skip makes some valid points, but.....
> #10.] Found that people MOST definately would rather hear someone
> play and ORIGINAL song badly, WITH FEELING, than to hear
> someone do a cover song to the "T".
This is absolutely NOT true, and is easily proven just by looking at the
marketplace. Cover bands make more money than bands playing originals,
there are a lot more clubs out there for cover bands, and they are a lot
more crowded.
You gotta remember, most people are NOT music fanatics. They are not even
out in the clubs to hear bands. They are out to have fun, dance, meet with
friends, and/or find someone to pick up. They want to hear songs they
already know by heart, by artists they are familiar with. They would *love*
a bad version of "Mony Mony" or "Old Time Rock and Roll" over almost any
original music you might want to play, no matter how good it is.
alan
|
| 2892.16 | | TECRUS::ROST | Clueless and slightly slack | Tue Feb 22 1994 06:48 | 48 |
| Boy, this subject just keeps coming up...
Some observations:
1. How come when people say "originals" they almost always mean *ROCK*
originals? There are many more styles of music out there, and in most
"cover" is not a bad word. Only in rock is there a high value placed on
self-written music.
2. Obviously you can make money doing originals, otherwise where did
all the superstars come from? The question is would you rather make
only a little money until you "make it big" (might be *never*) or
would you rather rake in cash playing bar mitzvahs? Of course, you
*can* do *both* if you need to.
3. Mixing covers and originals is easy. Take your originals and
sandwich them between two strong covers (so that the three songs in a
row work well together) and people will take the original in stride,
believe me. After all, not everyone in the audience has heard *every
song in the world* so they have no way of knowing that an unfamiliar
song is a cover or not. My last band was almost 100% cover (we had
about four originals out of 300+ songs) but most of the covers were so
obscure noone knew them anyway. This never kept us from getting gigs.
4. How much money is there to be made? Well, although I've worked more
than my share of $150 gigs, $400 gigs aren't hard to locate and a top
draw band can get over $1000 at the right venue, double that for
private gigs like weddings. I've played $1000 gigs in bands that I
didn't consider particularly good, so for a *good* band, making money
should not be a problem.
5. Love or money? How much *time* do you have? If you want to do it
for big money on limited time, play GB. The promotion needed to build
a band is not trivial. A *single gig* may require twenty hours of work
to promote properly. Then you have to spend time booking, shmoozing
with the music press, etc.
6. Can you compete as "world class"? Probably. Some bands at the top
of the charts do not have strong skills as players or writers. Others
of course are better than 99% of the human race. Depends on who you
are comparing yourself against. But in my experience: YES it is
possible, but many musicians do not have the will to make the big push.
I play with some guys who *are* "world class", they tour the US and
Europe with major acts, have credits on major label recordings, etc.
They also still play $30 a night gigs in Boston and worry about paying
their bills.
Brian
|
| 2892.17 | "There Goes Another Blues Song" | NAVY5::SDANDREA | God bless Tony Tiger.... | Tue Feb 22 1994 07:13 | 5 |
| I once formed a blooz band that played all original......but we only
knew one song....played it all night....it was called "The Blues
Song".......yes *my* band wrote that song.....
>:*)
|
| 2892.18 | One of my all-time fave songs... | PAVONE::TURNER | | Tue Feb 22 1994 07:18 | 9 |
| >I once formed a blooz band that played all original......but we only
>knew one song....played it all night....it was called "The Blues
>Song".......yes *my* band wrote that song.....
Well, I can only say I'm honoured! Hey, how come you're not living off
the royalties?
Dom
|
| 2892.19 | $$$$???? | JUPITR::NLAMOUREUX | STORMIN'NORMAN | Tue Feb 22 1994 07:40 | 34 |
| "FOR THE LOVE OF MONEY?"
If it weren't for the ARTIST that suffered and wrote those
"COVER" tunes all the COPY bands in the world would be out of a job and
workin' for DEC till they got the "Golden Handshake!"
You CAN'T have your cake & eat it too!
The drummer in my band says, "We've GOT to learn some cover
tunes, if we want to get some gigs!"
I've been fighting with this idea for a couple of weeks now
and thought that I KNEW the answer?
If I look back at the MANY different bands I've been in all
I can see is that NO matter how much money you do make you AIN'T gonna
have anything left after you pay the roadies, the P.A. Rental, your
Personal Manager; Gas; Strings; Equipment Repairs; U-Haul; Promotion
and on & on & on. In fact I can remember playin' at some club on the
North Shore called the "King Of Clubs" or something like that, and we
were gettin' like $2,000.00, for the week, and I went home with $7.00
in my pocket!
I've played music FOR A LIVING, while I had a family, and if
you don't think THAT'S scarey, TRY IT!
One minute you're makin' $400.00 or $500.00 a week, tax
free, and then the drummer has a nervous breakdown 'cause his women
has just driven him over the edge, and you're back to square 1.
Gotta be even worse if you make it!!!!
Figure there's two kinds of people on this planet! There's
"ARTIST" and there's people who make MONEY off the "ARTIST!"
Like the ad for the Military, "Be ALL that you can be, be an
ORIGINAL ARTIST!" Take a chance; invest time & money in YOURSELF, and
go for it! Follow that dream, and forget doin' OTHER people's stuff
when you can reach down inside and come up with your very own?
Once you've heard and audience applaud for something you've
put together yourself there'll be NO turnin' back........
SKIPP
|
| 2892.20 | | GOES11::HOUSE | Like a cat caught in a vacuum | Tue Feb 22 1994 08:50 | 21 |
| re: Brian
> 1. How come when people say "originals" they almost always mean *ROCK*
> originals? There are many more styles of music out there, and in most
> "cover" is not a bad word. Only in rock is there a high value placed on
> self-written music.
I didn't hear anyone say "rock" originals. Perhaps we alluded to that
because that's (more or less) what the majority of us play.
...and I'm not sure I agree with you that other styles of music don't
value self-written music. There seems to be a lot of emphasis on that
in the current country market in the minor leagues, although most
people that actually get hired to do recordings are expected to play
music selected by publishers, written by others, but that's starting to
change too.
The only form of music that I think of where self-written music is
discouraged is classical music.
Greg
|
| 2892.21 | chill...it's only rock'n'roll | ROCKER::KNOX | Rock'n'Roll Refugee | Tue Feb 22 1994 09:21 | 48 |
|
There seems to be some puffed-up idea on the value of playing
just "originals". And this BS about being an ARTIST is nothing
short of an inflated ego... (imho)
I played the "original" scene in the northeast for a lot of years
and found very little that could ever be considered "original".
It's just that most of the clubs in the city did not book cover
bands at the time. I never made very much money doing this,
but it was a lot of fun at the time. There comes a time, however,
that you've got to make some choices:
1) Do you want to be recording star ???
Then you need to devote every bit of your life to
that end and go for it... but very, very few
ever succeed.
2) Do you want to have fun and make some good money
as a MUSICIAN (as opposed to the "ARTIST").
Then get your chops up to speed and play whatever
the people want to hear; be it classic/top40 rock,
dance-hits, GB or originals... there is no BAD type
of music (well disco maybe!?!?!?)
If you want to make a lot of $$$ then play weddings.
It's not so difficul to compromise your "artistic integrity"
if you're splitting $1500-$2000 between 4 or 5 people.
(beats the hell outta splittin' a gig with 3 other bands
at some hole in the wall on Landsdown St. for no $$$)
Personally, I've done everything from GB to Jazz to Rock (even
worked for a while for an ELVIS impersonator). I've enjoyed all
of it...some more than others... and made a lot of money. It's
all music, and I love to play music regardless of who wrote it!!
I guess that's the difference between a MUSICIAN and an ARTIST.
I'll relinquish the stump to someone else now,
/Billy_K
|
| 2892.22 | | POWDML::BUCKLEY | Raptor -- Rules the Skies! | Tue Feb 22 1994 09:31 | 22 |
| RE: Brian in like .18
Good points. Does this read like "Shades of Rik Sawyer and the MAKE
IT BIG" note in Music_V1 to anyone else?!?!?
RE: Norman in .19
I gotta say, in brevity form, that I disagree with your points, and
feel you are in for a big surprise (read: poverty). Sounds like
"Driven Mad" is going to go the way of another "all-original, no
substitutions" band (formerly from DEC), MYSTIC POWERS. They stuck
to their guns, floundered for a gig....ANYWHERE, lost money (lots!),
then the band broke up.
I hear your rally cry to battle with your band -- well, have fun! I
could have, but have NO desire to "make it big". I'd rather "make it
medium" and have the fun I'm having in life. I have done my "sentence"
in the music biz ... glad it's over with, it really sucked!
cheers
B
|
| 2892.23 | Greg, You Ignorant Sl*t | TECRUS::ROST | Clueless and slightly slack | Tue Feb 22 1994 09:50 | 38 |
| Re: .20
Point, counterpoint....
While country artists don't record lots of covers, they do quite a few
in concerts. It's still hip to do a Hank Williams tune now and then
(like it was always hip for rockers to cover Dylan?). But recorded
covers in country do exist: Hank Jr. did "If You Wanna Get To Heaven"
and "Keep Your Hands To Yourself", Travis Tritt did "T.R.O.U.B.L.E.",
Waylon Jennings did "Mac Arthur Park" (?!?!?), Willie Nelson's huge
hits "Blue Eyes Crying In the Rain" and "Always On My Mind", etc.
In jazz, while original compositions are common, there is the whole
notion of "standards" which in omse cases are pop tunes and in other
cases are compositions by masters like Monk, Ellington, Dameron, etc.
In blues, covers are extremely common and in many cases "originals" are
ripoffs of other folk's material anyway (notably Dave Blickstein's
composition "The Blues Song"...agagagaga).
How about top 40? Whitney Houston took a cover all the way to the bank
with "I Will Always Love You" just recently. While covers are a small
percentage of the top 40 at any given time, many artists have struck
gold with remakes: Linda Ronstadt, James Taylor, Juice Newton, Johnny
Rivers, UB40.
To get totally off the subject, I'll go out on a limb and say that the
whole mentality that rock musicians need to create their own material
is a bunch of b.s. It wasn't too long ago (the late sixties) that
covers were still commonplace. Even the Beatles were doing covers, it
wasn't until "Rubber Soul" that they did an album of only originals.
In the days between blooz-rock and heavy metal, many bands were still
doing some covers: Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Yes, etc.
So I stand by my comment that it's only in rock where the concept of
doing original material has such high importance.
Brian
|
| 2892.24 | Wot works for *you* Dude ?! | ADROID::foster | Dastardly & Muttley | Tue Feb 22 1994 09:57 | 27 |
| Wow did this topic get 'complicated' %^). I've been in cover bands, did okay,
but I'd never do it again now that I've been doing originals (not mine) for
several years.
But I don't want the money. We have plenty enough gigs and opportunities
for other things (note Best Music Pole in the Worcester Phoenix, Diversions
"Concord Wire" in top three for best local song). There are Cover bands
in there too! Both are probably satisfied, but "I" am more satisfied with
doing our own stuff. It's the course that's taken me (not vice-versa).
Our band sustains just enough cash to pay the rent and work on the new disc
where "I" will be playing and singing, it's recorded well, and "I" have
something in my hand done by nobody else (and getting some airplay). Whatever,
if anything, happens after this is either a benefit or just a "non-happening".
These were my goals, I chose them, and I am happy, and there's never any
disappointment.
Lay your goals/attitudes collectively and wisely, the rest will follow. You
may choose one road and switch, but if you are working together and keep trying
new things the most obvious choices will surface themselves.
Droid Ramble
PS - Egos/larger than life attitudes turn me way-off when I'm an audience
I love a band that gets down to the audience level, who wouldn't want
to 'feel like part of the band' ;^)
|
| 2892.25 | Are you adding something to life or not? | MSBCS::ASHFORTH | | Tue Feb 22 1994 10:00 | 21 |
| Re .16:
Bri, I have *no* idea where you got this one! In my experience there's a lot of
recognition of songwriting as a contribution which is separate from (and at times
more important than) performance.
Ironically, it seems to me that performing originals often makes the performance
itself better as well. IMHO, folks always perform better when they connect to
what they're singing/playing, and nowhere is that connection stronger than
between a writer and his/her music.
WRT "Why do ya do it???," hey, whatever does it for you- there's a lot of plain
old fun in playing, but there *is* a different level of fulfillment in trying to
add something to the audience's experience which wasn't there before. I don't
know why this provokes anyone to use terms like "artist BS;" if you don't want
to do it, fine, but why knock it? (Oh, if you couldn't guess, I write a lot of
what I do.)
FWIW-
Bob
|
| 2892.26 | | TECRUS::ROST | Clueless and slightly slack | Tue Feb 22 1994 10:33 | 75 |
| Re: .25
OK, you asked for it 8^)
Honestly, to me, a good song is a good song. Assuming I could write a
song as good as say Hank Williams or Dylan or the Beatles, etc. hey, I
sure would enjoy doing that song and getting paid for it! However,
playing any good song is an enjoyment in itself.
There is such a thing as *craft* and then there is *art*. To me, most
successful songwriters have the craft part down. Few are making
"art". Who cares if "Turning Japanese" will go down in history next to
Beethoven's Fifth? It's still a cool song.
There are plenty of great artists who inhabit their songs. Ella
Fitzgerald comes to mind immediately. I don't care if she wants to
sing the Newark Yellow Pages, I bet it would be great. Of course, she
has managed to wrap her voice around songs by folks like Cole Porter
and the results are heavenly. Would it be better if she wrote her own
songs? I dunno...
Let's get off on another tangent. Is doing *your* songs all you ever
want to do? Ever think about just having some fun and playing some
blues tunes at a jam session? How about doing a bunch of covers of
great Stones tunes that nobody ever does? A tribute to Frank Zappa?
Going out to a coffeehouse open mike and playing some Dylan tunes you
always dug? You know, chances to perform, have some fun, maybe pick
up some extra cash.
Ever heard John Lennon's "Live Peace at Toronto" where his superstar
band (Clapton, etc.) sloppily jam through some old rock and roll tunes?
Then a few years later John did an all-cover album called "Rock and
Roll". McCartney did his "Russian" record, and others have done this
too: Robert Plant (Honeydrippers), Bowie, the Band, Metallica, the
Ramones, not bad company to be in.
Life's too short for me to not play lots of kinds of music. Originals
are great, sure, done that. Had fun, made records, got some money.
OK, there are other things I wnat to do too.
As far as Normans' assertion a few notes ago (.14?) that "one is REAL
and one AINT", forget it. One of the top bands in bluegrass music is
the Seldom Scene. Of the original lineup, only the mandolinist was
full-time. The lead singer was a surgeon, the banjo player a
mathematician, the bass player a cartographer and the dobro player a
political cartoonist. Oh yeah, these guys were all at the top of the
bluegrass heap as far as chops, singing, songwriting, etc. and workled
with people like Lowell George, Linda Ronstadt, Emmylou Harris...
Not to forget:
John Ciambotti, a bassist who has recorded and performed with Elvis
Costello, Huey Lewis and Lucinda Williams is a chiropractor.
Folk singer Fred Small is a lawyer. So was punk guitar icon Robert
Quine (though he quit that day job in his late thirties).
David Izenson, who played bass with Ornette Coleman for years, was a
psychiatrist.
Tal Farlow, the jazz guitar virtuoso, worked as a sign painter for
years because he hated having to play in clubs in order to make money!
Dewey Balfa, the Cajun fiddle legend, was a bus driver. Cajun
songwriter D.L. Menard builds furniture when he isn't touring the
world.
Then there was the guy (whose name I forget) who is a multi-millionaire
entrepreneur who spent a summer vacation during his grad studies at
Yale playing keyboards for Frank Zappa.
I have NOTHING against people wanting to do originals. To say that
playing covers is somehow demeaning or less than "real" is just crap.
Brian
|
| 2892.27 | going up? | RICKS::CALCAGNI | kant sheck dees bluze | Tue Feb 22 1994 10:44 | 19 |
| Notice how several threads are intertwining here?
re .24
Droid, I agree with a lot of what you said. But this one line:
> Egos/larger than life attitudes turn me way-off when I'm an audience
> I love a band that gets down to the audience level, who wouldn't want
> to 'feel like part of the band' ;^)
You equate inflated ego with larger than life; I think there's a fine
line there. Egos no, but larger than life? All the best shows I've
seen had this going for them. And I don't think this attitude excludes
making the audience feel "part of the band". Instead of the band
"getting down to audience level" it's more like the audience gets a
lift. Everydody feels part of something bigger. Make sense? Probably
not, it's hard to explain.
/rick
|
| 2892.28 | | GOES11::HOUSE | Like a cat caught in a vacuum | Tue Feb 22 1994 10:44 | 23 |
| re: .23 (Brian)
> Point, counterpoint....
{exposition on covers played by country, jazz, pop, & R&B artists, and
Dave Blickstein deleted}
I don't think we're really disagreeing here. Sounds to me like what
you're saying is that *everyone*, regardless of musical genre, plays
covers. I agree with that. Rock musicians play plenty of covers.
The piece I don't understand is where you're saying that rock as a
genre places more implicit value on self-written music. I don't really
see that (except for the occasional person like Storm'n or Rik Sawyer).
> So I stand by my comment that it's only in rock where the concept of
> doing original material has such high importance.
That, that's the statement I disagree with. I don't thin it has any
more or less importance in rock then it does in any other form of
popular music these days.
Greg
|
| 2892.29 | Ya got it right this time... | MSBCS::ASHFORTH | | Tue Feb 22 1994 10:51 | 22 |
| > I have NOTHING against people wanting to do originals. To say that
> playing covers is somehow demeaning or less than "real" is just crap.
Bri-
Since your reply seemed addressed to mine (mostly). I figgered I'd respond.
My objection was to your contention that only in rock is there a premium placed
on doing originals; that still stands. There's a difference between saying that
doing covers is demeaning and saying that doing originals isn't valued.
FWIW, I think there are a lot of interpretations of the word "cover," and very
different opinions of the "value" of doing said covers. The kind of cover which
*does* seem less than real to me is the painstaking note-for-note mimicry which
regards any deviation from the original as an error. That's *not* the same as a
"remake" (which is my preferred term when someone makes a song their *own*),
and a band or individual "inhabits" (good term!) the song in their own way.
(I bet a lot of the folks slamming cover bands are referring to the bands which
approach analog recording in the accuracy of their copies.)
Bob
|
| 2892.30 | | TAMRC::LAURENT | Hal Laurent @ COP | Tue Feb 22 1994 10:53 | 24 |
| I feel compelled to mention something that no one's brought up yet:
There's "covers", and then there's "covers". I personally make a big
distinction between doing a cover exactly note-for-note like the original
and taking someone else's song and playing it like *you* feel it.
As Brian points out, many genres don't seem to have a stigma about playing
covers. However, these same genres tend not to require that the cover sound
exactly like the original.
From my experience, "rock" (whatever that means) clubs (at least around here)
are more likely to want cover bands that regurgitate back the performance on
the record. Blues, jazz and bluegrass (for example) venues around here don't
seem to be like that. Sure, people play a lot of the same songs, but they
don't play them note-for-note the same way. Country venues used to be like
that, but since country's become big business they're starting to require
mindless parrotting (sp?) as well.
Of course with some genres (Irish comes to mind), most of the audience
doesn't know nay of the songs anyway, so they wouldn't know a cover if it
hit them in the face. :-)
Hal Laurent
Baltimore Maryland
|
| 2892.31 | | TAMRC::LAURENT | Hal Laurent @ COP | Tue Feb 22 1994 10:57 | 8 |
| re: .30
>I feel compelled to mention something that no one's brought up yet:
Well, notes collision makes a liar out of me! :-)
I totally agree with Bob in .29.
-Hal
|
| 2892.32 | including the audience | TINKTU::SCHOFIELD | If you're going to fight, *clash*! | Tue Feb 22 1994 11:09 | 24 |
| re: .27
> making the audience feel "part of the band". Instead of the band
> "getting down to audience level" it's more like the audience gets a
> lift. Everydody feels part of something bigger. Make sense? Probably
> not, it's hard to explain.
I understand. The bands that stand out in my mind even years later are the
bands which made the audience feel like they were "in with the band". Maybe
its beacuse I was a frustrated performer at the time, but I suspect that many
members of the average audience live a sort of vicarious experience when
watching a band perform (especially when performing their favorite tune). So
when the band includes the audience in the between song joking or when the
audience sees that the band is really digging the tune they're playing, this
enhances the "being there" feeling.
In a corrollary to that, as an audience member, I usually respond better when
I get the sense that the band is have a blast and would likely be doing the
same thing whether there was anyone in the room or not. If they're having fun,
it makes it more fun for me.
I agree that it's hard to explain...
Rick
|
| 2892.33 | | TECRUS::ROST | Clueless and slightly slack | Tue Feb 22 1994 11:25 | 25 |
| Re: .29
Which thread is this?
OK, let's say I get a shot at a major label deal and I go in saying I
want to do all covers...
Possibility #1: I play jazz and want to do an all-Monk album, the
label says great, just be sure to wear a tailored suit and look sullen
in the pictures.
Possibility #2: I play blues and want to do an all-Willie Dixon album,
the label says OK, just be sure to look weary in the pictures.
Possibility #3: I play country and want to do an all-Merle Haggard
album, the label says it's cool as long as I have some stubble on my
chin in the pictures.
Possibility #4: I play rock and want to do an all-B.O.C. album, the
label sez $%^&*(* and after refusing to release the record ties my
contract up for seven years so I can't record for anybody else. They
don't even suggest photos 8^)
Brian
|
| 2892.34 | falling down | ADROID::foster | Dastardly & Muttley | Tue Feb 22 1994 11:27 | 23 |
| >Droid, I agree with a lot of what you said. But this one line:
>> Egos/larger than life attitudes turn me way-off when I'm an audience
>> I love a band that gets down to the audience level, who wouldn't want
>> to 'feel like part of the band' ;^)
>You equate inflated ego with larger than life; I think there's a fine
>line there. Egos no, but larger than life?...
Yea, Rick, I suppose I did kind of mix these together but it seems they
could intertwine. Maybe not... I never look any anybody other than me
at being larger than like %^) ha ha, joke!! I have the confidence of a
one-winged bird %^).
Just in case anyone took my point about never playing in a cover band again
means I think covers are crap then please be assured I do not! I like seeing/
playing both, always have and always will! I just was stressing the point that
no matter what the pros/cons are, work to a point where you are doing what
works *best* in your band situation and you'll have some measure of success
at it (esp. if you have realistic goals).
Droid
|
| 2892.35 | admit it! | NAVY5::SDANDREA | God bless Tony Tiger.... | Tue Feb 22 1994 11:28 | 6 |
| Buck, yer lyin and yew know it, pal........
you coulda made it big, but you chose to do the coaster circuit
instead......don't con me, pal!
>:*)
|
| 2892.36 | any bets? | NAVY5::SDANDREA | God bless Tony Tiger.... | Tue Feb 22 1994 11:30 | 3 |
| I wonder if this string will out-do the blooz note in # of replies?
|
| 2892.37 | Heads or Tails? | GRANPA::CCUMMINS | | Tue Feb 22 1994 11:33 | 26 |
|
It seems to me the bottom line is whatever path is right for you
is the way to go. I, personally, prefer the originals route.
Having played in cover bands through my teens to mid 20's, playing
originals now seems like the right progression.(no pun intended)
I think at my age(31), if it wasn't for the creativity of songwriting
and then performing them live, I wouldn't have the drive to even pick
up my guitar. But thats not to say cover band are bad, It's just not
for me anymore. There's lots of fun and money in covers, but it's
not as fufilling. I think most" cover lovers"are musicians that
just enjoy playing out and having a good time.
The previous comment saying you have to get people to your gigs
in order to have them know your songs, I must disagree with.
I have had good success with making tapes, getting local radio
airplay, selling tapes, or even GIVING AWAY tapes. The result,
alot of people at the shows knowing the songs. Even before our
first gig!!
Finally , I must say that a majority of people from steady
working cover bands have no interest in joining original bands.
I guess it's a totally different market, different world, and
separate entity. Choose the path that serves you best!
Clark C.
P.S What does GB stand for? (Excuse my ignorance)
|
| 2892.38 | that's entertainmnet!! | ROCKER::KNOX | Rock'n'Roll Refugee | Tue Feb 22 1994 11:40 | 34 |
| RE: .25
>>IMHO, folks always perform better when they connect to
>>what they're singing/playing
While I do agree with this somewhat, I feel that folks perform
better when they connect to "who" they're singing/playing "to".
Really connecting with an audience is such a rush. It doesn't
matter that much what type of material you're playing
(although it is great to have people get off on your own material!!).
The bottom line is that the clubs pay bands to "entertain" the
patrons so that they will stay and spend $$$. The type of entertainment
is dictated by the type of venue. People who go to clubs that have only
"original" rock/thrash/grunge/whatever expect that type of
entertainment. "Old time Rock'n'Roll" would go over in these clubs
about as well as an all-original-thrash-rock act would go over
at a wedding or bar-mitzvah. Regardless of the type of music,
you are there to entertain the paying customers (and hopefully have
a good time doing it!!). It's been my experience that club managers
judge a band by the bar receipts for the weekend, as opposed to how
well they played or how innovative their music was. It doesn't matter
to them what type of music you play is as long as it pulls in large,
thirsty crowds. If you can do this consistently with all original
material then all the power to ya... if you're doing it with all
covers, then also, all the power to ya. It's a tough business and
I like to see anyone succeed at it. One type of entertainment is
just as valid as the next as long as the folks enjoy it. After all,
it's only rock'n'roll... but I like it (oops, that's not very
original, is it ...)
/Billy_K
|
| 2892.39 | | TAMRC::LAURENT | Hal Laurent @ COP | Tue Feb 22 1994 12:21 | 13 |
| re: .38
> It's been my experience that club managers
> judge a band by the bar receipts for the weekend, as opposed to how
> well they played or how innovative their music was.
You're not kidding there! I recorded a blues band at a local club
on Friday. The crowd was bigger than normal for a Friday night at this
club (it's a bit of a dive). On Saturday I was talking to the club owner
and commented that it was pretty busy on Friday night. His retort?
"Yeah, but they weren't spending much!"
-Hal
|
| 2892.40 | Opinions of a sideman | NWACES::HICKERNELL | Drums must never stop! | Tue Feb 22 1994 12:46 | 40 |
| re: .14
> #2.] If you're NOT yourself then you'll always be 2nd best and
Second best? It's not a contest. Even mediocre players still enjoy
their work (trust me) and that's a good enough reason for doing it.
> #11.] THEN THERE'S REALITY!
[...]
> A.] Playin' music part time. [FOR FUN?]
> B.] Playin' music for a LIVING!
> One's REAL and one AIN'T!
So which is which? %^)
The whole idea that playing tunes someone else wrote is somehow less
"artistic" is complete baloney, IMO. Any number of jazz sidepersons
have never written a tune; are they therefore necessarily not artists?
Sure they are, they just aren't songwriters - they're players. What
they create is lines and riffs instead of tunes and poems.
I agree that bands that try to recreate other groups' tunes note for note
are not very artistic - they copy. But almost every cover band I've ever
heard interpreted their covers to some extent. And if you don't think
most of the players in those bands get into their work, look harder. Go
hear See No Evil (Alan Starr's cover band) and tell me those guys aren't
artists.
I've never written a song in my life, but when I play someone else's tune
I make it my own. I don't know if I'm an artist, but I think "making it
your own" is the key to artistry. The issue of whose songs you play is
only meaningful if you insist on playing only your own. Many "original-
only" bands are comprised of some people who write and some who don't;
if a player doesn't write, he or she is in exactly the same situation as
a player in a cover band - playing someone else's material. And so is
the songwriter who plays a tune his fellow bandmember wrote. If you
didn't write it, you're a sideman. And there's nothing better or worse
about that than about being a songwriter.
Dave
|
| 2892.41 | Not many classocal artists do originals | AIMHI::KERR | Livin Life By The Drop | Tue Feb 22 1994 12:56 | 12 |
| .40
Dave,
I agree with you (what a switch, huh?). Just to add to your idea, very
few classical muscians write their own material (they almost always cover
guys like Bethoven and mozart) and yet they're considered artists (unless
they're really bad).
Al
|
| 2892.42 | >:*} | NAVY5::SDANDREA | God bless Tony Tiger.... | Tue Feb 22 1994 12:57 | 8 |
| I guess, by default, I'm an artist! If I try to cover one of my
hero's leads and can't, thereby *writing* my own *original* version, am
I an artsy fartsty craftsy original song writing type artist? You bet!
Hot damn, I'm going out on the road....they'll never recognize MY
covers, they're all original material!
Rok Starr
|
| 2892.43 | What's the fuss? | MSBCS::ASHFORTH | | Tue Feb 22 1994 13:35 | 9 |
| >"artsy fartsty craftsy original song writing type artist?"
One thing I don't understand is why people seem to have something *against*
anyone who writes their own stuff! Could someone please enlighten me? I just
am baffled by this reaction.
TIA-
Bob
|
| 2892.44 | | MANTHN::EDD | Enough to bore a blueser... | Tue Feb 22 1994 13:48 | 7 |
| > Could someone please enlighten me?
While not holding anything against *anyone* who writes their own stuff,
I've seen and heard enough "all-original" bands who wrote such lame
tunes that they cast a shadow on the others.
Edd
|
| 2892.45 | oops, sorry! | NAVY5::SDANDREA | God bless Tony Tiger.... | Tue Feb 22 1994 13:57 | 18 |
| >"artsy fartsty craftsy original song writing type artist?"
One thing I don't understand is why people seem to have something *against*
anyone who writes their own stuff! Could someone please enlighten me? I
just am baffled by this reaction.
Bob,
I apologize if my tongue in cheek smart *ssed humor was not obvious. I
have nothing against people who write their own stuff. I was
supporting Dave Hickernell's reply in my own weird way. Hell, all of
my favorite music and every song I can play was written by someone
else!!
again, no fuss or harm intended, just an immature childlike stab at
humor on what may be a sensitive subject for some folks.
Steve
|
| 2892.46 | do I wanna know? | NAVY5::SDANDREA | God bless Tony Tiger.... | Tue Feb 22 1994 14:02 | 5 |
| BTW,
what's TIA- stand for?
|
| 2892.47 | Try this on | SALEM::DACUNHA | | Tue Feb 22 1994 14:08 | 19 |
|
We are walking a fine line when we talk about "artistry".
To me, someone who can simply (or not so simply) play a piece of
music, be it a cover of Mozart or The Doors is NOT necessarily an
"ARTIST", but rather a performer. That's not to say this person
isn't an "ARTIST", just that playing JAZZ/CLASSICAL/ROCK...whatever.
.. doesn't make you one. I think the artistry comes through in
writing and or arranging.
There just isn't much creativity in a note for note performance.
Sure you could probably see the "ART" in someones expression of
or interpretation of an individual section or well..er...ah...
never mind
Maybe I'm relating ART with Creativity a bit too closely
|
| 2892.48 | TIA explained (and MORE! film at 11...) | MSBCS::ASHFORTH | | Tue Feb 22 1994 14:09 | 12 |
| Steve-
TIA is yet another TLA (Three-Letter Acronym), stands for Thanks In Advance.
And no, ya didn't hurt me, I'ze just puzzled when folks seem angry at a given
class of people (can you say BLOOZers, boys and girls? Ho 'bout SHREDders???)
instead of just not "getting" it. It's interesting to find out the whys and
wherefores, if they *can* be explained.
HTH (Hope This Helps)-
Bob
|
| 2892.49 | who knows? | NAVY5::SDANDREA | God bless Tony Tiger.... | Tue Feb 22 1994 14:16 | 10 |
|
Bob,
You had selected my "artsy fartsy" remark as an example of the
anger.....so I responded; I only get *angry* at my ex-wife (grrrr).
I know what ya mean tho......why can't we all just accept each other's
tastes and opinions? If we did, this conference would take alot less
disk space, but *I'd* have alot less fun!
>:*}
|
| 2892.50 | BEAT ME UP! | JUPITR::NLAMOUREUX | STORMIN'NORMAN | Tue Feb 22 1994 15:01 | 27 |
| "IMPROVISATIONAL SKILLS?"
Well now! There's people who can IMPROVISE, and that is defi-
nately and ART form, and I would definately consider Jazz Musicians
Artist but they ALL, definately have the ability to write their own
tunes!
Some folks here almost sound like they play covers by CHOICE?
This is rather confusing as it makes it sound like even though
I could express my OWN feelings I'd rather express someone elses???????
Have been playing since I'm 13, and that comes to approx. 30
yrs. of playing guitar in bands, all over the country, and going
through the gammit of the music biz!
Noone WANTS to play covers!!!!!!
It's either something you do to try and make a buck, which is
utterly rediculous, or you just CAN'T write & arrange your own tunes or
you just DON'T have the confidence or BALLS to "walk the walk" as the
Marines would say!
Shit! If every musician in the world thought like DEC employees
then there'd only be ONE song that we'd be listening to & COPYING!
Maybe that's the whole key? I'm asking people who WORK for a
living what being an ARTIST means although I've met quite a few B.A.'s
in this lower end of the Show Biz ladder!
Give It Me,
SKIPP
|
| 2892.51 | | TAMRC::LAURENT | Hal Laurent @ COP | Tue Feb 22 1994 15:06 | 12 |
| re: .50
> Noone WANTS to play covers!!!!!!
You need to chill out a bit, dude! Don't assume that everyone in the
world shares your views on everything.
I personally *like* playing covers of songs that I like. Being forced
to play covers of songs that I *don't* like because it's what popular
is a horse of a different color.
-Hal
|
| 2892.52 | Scooby da be bop ba do | SALEM::DACUNHA | | Tue Feb 22 1994 15:18 | 10 |
|
'Scuse me...I shouldn't have included JAZZ in .47 Jazz being,
of course, mostly boundless, where most every song has a section
made for stretchin' out. OOooooooWee
|
| 2892.53 | | POWDML::BUCKLEY | Raptor -- Rules the Skies! | Tue Feb 22 1994 16:02 | 57 |
| RE: .50
Norm, you're losing it. With every post, you seem to make more and
more assumptions about music...
> Some folks here almost sound like they play covers by CHOICE?
What's wrong with that?!? I see no difference that cranking up a
tune you love on the radio to enjoy it, as opposed to playing said
tune you love so much in a band...what's the difference?
> Noone WANTS to play covers!!!!!!
Noone named Norman Lamoureux!
8^)
> It's either something you do to try and make a buck, which is
>utterly rediculous, or you just CAN'T write & arrange your own tunes or
>you just DON'T have the confidence or BALLS to "walk the walk" as the
>Marines would say!
The above, imvho, is the biggest crock of $#!+ you've touted to date in
this note string!!
There are LOTS of people who can write music, WITH confidence (myself
included, wanna hear some of my tunes?? They're no "1-4-5" slouches!).
I have more than enough confidence when it comes to composition...I
have a freaking degree in music, it should be good for some things!!
What I think you're missing the point is WHY anyone would want to play
music that is not their own. The point is -- you play what you like,
period!! There are TONS of tunes that I would play in a "cover" band
(or in an "originals" band...gawd, I hate labels) in a second. For
myself, I would not do them note-for-note, but I would take the
ARRANGING skills I learned in college and make someone else's tune
partly my own -- by means of arranging it myself as *I* hear it! This,
I think, is what you talked about when you said that "Jazz Musicians
are artists when they play other peoples tunes"?!?
My last word on covers -- you can have bands like GnR play cover tunes
on their records that don't sound much different than the originals,
and I think that kind of is a lame cop-out -- or, you can hear
someone's arrangment of a tune (I donno, lets say Grace Jones' cover
of the Police's "Demolition Man" for example), which def. sets the
rendition apart from the original artist, and which holds itself in a
whole new light.
Later...
Shit! If every musician in the world thought like DEC employees
then there'd only be ONE song that we'd be listening to & COPYING!
Maybe that's the whole key? I'm asking people who WORK for a
living what being an ARTIST means although I've met quite a few B.A.'s
in this lower end of the Show Biz ladder!
|
| 2892.54 | *&%^#$ | ROCKER::KNOX | Rock'n'Roll Refugee | Tue Feb 22 1994 17:23 | 14 |
|
By the way, Norm, what' so bad about making money. I've been making
a lot of money over the past 18+ years and I've had a lot of fun
doing it. It's a great second job and it allows me to go out and
have fun every weekend without catching grief from my wife (I get the
fun, she gets the money!!) I'd almost be offended by your put down
of cover bands, but I've been listening to that ridiculous line
of crap for so long that it's become almost humorous ...(almost)
/Billy_K
PS - once you've played the "chicken dance" for a Leominster wedding,
everything else is gravy...
|
| 2892.55 | | MANTHN::EDD | Enough to bore a blueser... | Wed Feb 23 1994 05:50 | 3 |
| Originals are for people who can't play covers...
Edd
|
| 2892.56 | Hey, slow down, lads... | PAVONE::TURNER | | Wed Feb 23 1994 06:13 | 61 |
|
I dunno, this conference limps along as though it's on its last legs, then
suddenly there's a burst of activity and I can't keep up with the debate in
order to put forward a reasoned argument! So here's a few sundry observations
about the covers vs. originals issue.
Quite how anyone can put forward the argument that one is superior to the other
is beyond me! There sees to be a common line of thought that playing covers is
a sell-out. Sure, if I go into a pub and hear a band turfing out Smoke On The
Water, Stairway To Heaven et al, then I'm out in a flash (WITHOUT buying a
drink!). I'd never play in a band just for the cash and I'm thoroughly in
favour of playing covers, so that quashes that particular argument.
As a member of a 60s beat/R&B band (though not gigging as yet), I'd turn down
any gig where the owner of the club told us what to play. My own personal
nightmare would be to find myself in front of an audience yelling for songs
from The Blues Bros. soundtrack (good music, but who needs another Blues Bros.
cover band?). If I really need the cash, I can always give private English
lessons out here in Italy!
Nor can I believe the view that no real musician wants to play covers...in my
experience, it's almost the opposite! The bass player and myself are the real
driving force in our band; we've gone through several other bandmembers in the
six months that we've been playing (especially drummers), largely because we're
struggling to find people who want to play this type of music (most drummers
seem to be of the "quick-cash-and-who-cares-what-we-play" school!). I tend to
find that the people who *want* to play covers are people who *listen* to a lot
of music in their spare time. When the bass player and I first got together, we
actually sat down and made two hard-and-fast rules about the direction we
wanted to take:
1. A 80:20 ratio of covers to originals. We've got nothing against originals,
it's just that there are thousands of covers we'd like to do; we haven't got
much time (or facilities) for demoing our own songs; and we don't feel
particularly confident about writing our own material. Still, I'm sure that
with time, it'll come.
2. We only want to do relatively unknown covers. I think it was Brian who said
that most audiences won't recognise 99% of the covers anyway. I couldn't agree
more. We cover material by the Remains, Paul Revere and the Raiders, the Kinks,
Lee Dorsey, Diana Ross & the Supremes, the Action, Howling Wolf, the Yardbirds,
Bobby Womack & the Valentinos, etc. Sure, we also do the Stones ("Surprise,
Surprise", NOT "Satisfaction") and the Beatles ("Wait", NOT "A Hard Day's
Night"). So maybe even our mediocre originals won't stick out like a sore thumb
amongst that lot ;-)
Did I hear someone say it was self-indulgent to play obscure covers that the
audience have never heard? So what does that make playing originals, then? It
always strikes me as hilarious that people tend to think that all the best
material by any band gets released on 45!
Of course, we also have a special problem. All the lyrics are in English and
I'm the only guy of English mother tongue in the band (and I'm *not* the
singer, though I do help out with backing vocals!). But you'd be surprised how
convincing someone can sound when he's belting out words in a language s/he
doesn't fully understand!
There's loads more where that came from, but work beckons...
Dom
|
| 2892.57 | another $.02 | RANGER::WEBER | | Wed Feb 23 1994 06:25 | 25 |
| Norm:
I find it funny that you have to keep telling us how long you've been
playing. Believe it or not, there are noters here who have even more
experience than you and who don't share your views.
Personally, I love playing "other people's" tunes. I leave the
songwriting to the writing artists and do what I do best, which is
play. This gives me the ability to use the best of all music; in a set
we're putting together now, we go from Gershwin to the Gin Blossoms and
not only enjoy it, but in the process, make each tune our own.
I find that most bands I've heard doing originals are better players
than writers. This is less true in jazz than in some other forms of
music, but even here I find the writing of many of the younger artists
to be of less consequence than their playing, so I tend to look for
records that have some standards on them--this way, I know some of the
tunes will be worth listening to.
Somgwriting and playing an instrument are two different skills.
Combining both doesn't impress me unless they are at a very high level.
I can write bad tunes as well as anybody--I just prefer not to inflict
them on a paying audience.
Danny W.
|
| 2892.58 | Already Mad | USPMLO::DESROCHERS | | Wed Feb 23 1994 06:26 | 10 |
|
"RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!"
I gotta BELIEVE that this is a BIG TIME chain yank - just
a STORM cloud passing thru, if you will.
NORM'S doing the SAME THING in the BEATLES conference and
getting the same REACTIONS.
"I'M ONLY SLEEPING"
|
| 2892.59 | Raised 9th? | JUPITR::NLAMOUREUX | STORMIN'NORMAN | Wed Feb 23 1994 07:01 | 63 |
| "GOD IS A SUCKER FOR MUSICIANS"
Seems like I struck a dissonant chord here? Maybe a raised 9th?
Let me explain a little further!...........
#1.] If you're a musician, I love ya, 'cause we come from the
same mold, and whether YOU consider yourself to be good, bad or great
makes absolutely no difference to me and you automatically get my
respect for at least tryin'!
#2.] Took me a year to put my present band together! That's
finding a decent rehearsal space, centrally located; auditioning
musicians, and some were close friends; buying the BEST equipment for
myself which so far has run around $3,000.00+; finding the RIGHT
direction; and coming up with the ideas and tryin' to hold it all
together!.............AND IT PAYED OFF!
#3.] Every Saturday we get together for 8 to 10 hours of
rehearsal and we ALWAYS write at least a couple of songs or ideas!
I come up with a "Led Zepplin" type of line and the
drummer, Bass Player & other Guitarist follow me!
The Singer just has this NATURAL ability to come up with
the melody and the words, and it just amazes me how the whole thing
just works together.
#4.] Listened to a live tape we made with "ONE" microphone and
the ONLY way I can describe it is, "Our music is so primal & ugly that
it's actually beautiful!"
#5.] The drummer says, "We've GOT to play covers if we're gonna
get any Club gigs!" as he needs money for drum sticks!
Have been fighting with myself on this matter, over & over
again for the past couple of weeks and just wanted to get an idea on
how OTHER musicians felt about this idea!
Felt that if I didn't come across the way I did, then I
wouldn't of gotten the, at least, 56 replies that I've received, and hope
that I DIDN'T ruffle too many feathers, but it builds character!
#6.] Appreciate your responses and guess we WILL have to do some
cover tunes but I'll pick'em and they'll be the very best I can find
and they'll have to fit our style of playin' or we'll MAKE them fit!
#7.] The music ALSO projects an ATTITUDE which reminds me of
what Eddie Vedder of "Pearl Jam" called it....."The New Anger"......and
we fit the times!
We're somewhere between the GUITAR intensity of "MEGADETH"
and the Bass & Drums orientated sound of "PEARL JAM".
#8.] Giving my age away, BUT, brought two of my teenage sons
down to listen to us, and figured they'd be like, "OK! Dad", for a
bunch of old farts you guys are really OK!"
That would of been it for me, and beleive me, kids can be
brutally honest!
They LOVED it, as much as I do, and they want to come to
every rehearsal and help us with equipment when we gig!
APPRECIATE YOUR HONEST REPLIES AND NEVER, NEVER, NEVER GIVE UP!
MUSIC IS THE FORCE,
SKIPP TRACER
of
"DrIVen maD"
|
| 2892.60 | | POWDML::BUCKLEY | Raptor -- Rules the Skies! | Wed Feb 23 1994 07:12 | 27 |
| >> #5.] The drummer says, "We've GOT to play covers if we're gonna
>>get any Club gigs!" as he needs money for drum sticks!
> Have been fighting with myself on this matter, over & over
>again for the past couple of weeks and just wanted to get an idea on
>how OTHER musicians felt about this idea!
Since you put it in simple terms...
The drummer is right!! As I have said before ... if you are an
originals band, there are, in total, probably only (1) dozen clubs
IN NEW ENGLAND that will cater to this. Of course, there are rooms
like Axis and The Paradise, but they just don't let ANYONE play there
-- you play there after you've "done time" at scum places like
Derringers and the Rockpile for a couple of years...and oh-by-the-way,
if you are successful and gain a following (and appear to make the club
some money when you play), THEN you will be asked to play in the better
clubs!
If your goal is to play 100% original music -- great. BUT, expect
getting gigs in clubs to be difficult, and expect to LOSE money, not
make money. That is the bottom line right there.
If you were a 50/50 band (2 sets covers, 2 sets originals), you could
at least get some PAYING "cover" gigs (if you're good), which would
*somewhat* off-set the losses you will incur trying to do the
"original" thing. That's about the bottom line right there..
|
| 2892.61 | PEACE? | JUPITR::NLAMOUREUX | STORMIN'NORMAN | Wed Feb 23 1994 08:02 | 43 |
| "Thanx For The Incouragement!"
Just thought of a great name for an album..........
"YOUTH IN ASIA"
Anyhow, like I've said before, "there AIN'T no money to be
made doin' club gigs" and if you think there REALLY is then go ahead
and quit your "KINDA" secure day gig at DEC and play music for a
living!
Wish we could play for the YOUNGER crowd as they seem to
KNOW what good Rock'n Roll is but somehow lose that as they become, and
I hate to use the term, ADULTS, and then gravitate towards "Country &
Western" line dancing!......OooooHhhhhhh that hurts!
If you look up "ADULT" in the dictionary it says.."to STOP
growing"....or just another way of saying....."DEAD!"
Gotta keep the child, within you, alive & well, and the
very best way I can think of is through.......MUSIC!
Don't plan on making anything that I would call MONEY and
feel that SUCCESS is actually playing in a band that is YOUR band doin'
YOUR music and if you HAPPEN to "Make It", great, if not, you've still
succeeded!
OK! OK! OK! we'll do "SOME" cover tunes and I'll play for
intoxicated caucasion adults with no sense of rhythm or basic compre-
hension of ART or have any understanding of why the kids are they way
they are today and traded in sex for sandwhiches and get paid $300.00
tops for a group of 4!
Which means we CAN'T play in Salem, Taxachusetts, because
they've passed an ordinance there that says you can't have more than
3 musicians on stage at one time! Who the hell would want to play there
anyway?
This is the "ATTITUDE" that the MAJORITY of teenagers have
today, and I'm VERY sorry but after lookin' at most adults I've known I
really don't blame them!
Why don't they just make being TEENAGER illegal?
Anyhow, "fight the good fight" and never let anyone tell
you what you can or can't do, ESPECIALLY if you live in AMERICA!
" What's So Funny 'Bout Peace, Love & Understanding? "
Rock'n Roll
SKIPP
|
| 2892.62 | Get Imaginative | TECRUS::ROST | Clueless and slightly slack | Wed Feb 23 1994 08:03 | 45 |
| Well, I still don't buy this "you *have* to play covers to get gigs"
argument. I think an original band can get gigs. Can you get paid?
Yep, but not playing three-on-a-bill at the local alternative rock
hell-hole. Go out to the burbs and book yourself into a VFW hall and
promote the show yourself; $250 to rent the hall, $100 for a cop,
charge $8 at the door and if you get 100 people to come you make $450.
Maybe go in with a band that you know and like and share the
risk/profit.
Try to land some gigs at colleges, either official college events or
frat parties. Talk a local bar that doesn't have music today into
letting you set up on a Friday night and charge a buck at the door (no
risk for the owner!), etc. Offer to play a benefit for the local
public/college radio station (OK, no money but good PR). If your town
has a youth center try to set up an all-ages gig there. I firmly
believe that alternative *marketing* of a band is real important.
Getting into the rat race of every other band in town chasing that
record contract by playing bars aint the way to go, it's too
competitive.
It can be done, a good example is Phish. These guys were *not* playing
the Boston clubs, but they could come down from Burlington, VT, book
the Somerville Theatre and sell it out without even having a record
out! So they obviously found their audience *without* burning out in
the club scene.
Oh yeah, if the band members are complaining about needing *money*
right away and you are doing originals then you have the wrong band
members! Doing covers is *always* the best route to quick $$ because
you don't have to *write forty songs first* to get a gig, just learn
forty covers in a month and you're ready to gig. I'm looking into some
original projects right now and would not even *think* of getting
involved with people who didn't have solid sources of income.
Otherwise, the pressure to gig just to pay the rent is too great.
One other interesting option: back in the late seventies there was a
band playing the CT circuit under three names. They were "Rust" a Neil
Young tribute band, "Willie and the Poor Boys" a Creedence tribute band
and themselves (forget the name!!!) an original country-rock outfit.
They would book a club for Thursday through Saturday, do the originals
on Thursday and the cover bands the other two nights. At the time,
tribute bands ruled the club scene so these guys were doing some clever
thinking here. Best of both worlds.
Brian
|
| 2892.63 | I'm dead serious! | NAVY5::SDANDREA | God bless Tony Tiger.... | Wed Feb 23 1994 08:41 | 15 |
| Just play whatchya wanna play and have fun...........
If yer goal is to get gigs and make a little cash then use whatever yer
best resource is to get there.....original or covers or both.
If yer goal is to just play out once in a while, then join me at the
local blues jams....once you have the stage, you can play anything ya
want!
If yer goal is to 'make it' in 'the business' then good luck and see
ya!
See how simple this issue is?
8*)
|
| 2892.64 | | MANTHN::EDD | Enough to bore a blueser... | Wed Feb 23 1994 08:49 | 8 |
| How come I keep expecting these notes to be originating from node
SALEM::???
> Just thought of a great name for an album..."YOUTH IN ASIA"
Best check the copyrights. It's been done.
Edd
|
| 2892.66 | dazed and confused | ROCKER::KNOX | Rock'n'Roll Refugee | Wed Feb 23 1994 09:39 | 10 |
| RE: .61
Yo Skippy,
This is all a joke, huh?? Even bass players aren't this dazed
and confused...
Your worst nightmare,
Bill (a "DECCIE" "ADULT" with an "ATTITUDE" who plays "COVERS"!!)
|
| 2892.67 | | HEDRON::DAVEB | anti-EMM! anti-EMM! I hate expanded memory!- Dorothy | Wed Feb 23 1994 10:12 | 8 |
| re: Edd and originals are for those who can't play covers
I've seen that band :-)
and I'm rollin'
dbii
|
| 2892.68 | | SALEM::DACUNHA | | Wed Feb 23 1994 10:14 | 7 |
|
Ok Edd, I'll bite. Why DO you keep expecting these notes
to come from SALEM:: ?
|
| 2892.69 | | MANTHN::EDD | Enough to bore a blueser... | Wed Feb 23 1994 10:27 | 4 |
| The lamented Rik Sawyer used to note from node SALEM::. This string
of notes reads like some of his "best"...
Edd
|
| 2892.70 | A SALEM:: Original | SALEM::DACUNHA | | Wed Feb 23 1994 10:54 | 9 |
|
That's RIGHT!!! I believe Mr. Buck eluded to that a bit earlier.
I can only wonder, what and where Rick Sawyer is today.
Now, where is that damned bandana...
|
| 2892.71 | | GOES11::HOUSE | Like a cat caught in a vacuum | Wed Feb 23 1994 12:06 | 7 |
| Whatever happened to Rik anyway?
> Originals are for people who can't play covers...
They certainly are for me.
gh
|
| 2892.72 | phhhhhhht! | NAVY5::SDANDREA | God bless Tony Tiger.... | Wed Feb 23 1994 12:09 | 7 |
| My covers sound like originals........bad ones!
Ever go into a music store and pick up an axe and strum some real
recognizeable rythmn riff like a popular Doobies tune only to have the
guy next to you say: "Know any Doobie Bros?"
8*P
|
| 2892.73 | ATTITUDE? | JUPITR::NLAMOUREUX | STORMIN'NORMAN | Wed Feb 23 1994 12:39 | 42 |
| "WOW MAN, I CAN DID THAT!"
Guess Alice Cooper was right when he said, "negative power
will get you anything you want?"
Funny but you can sit here all day tryin' to tell people to
be as POSITIVE as they possibly can be if they WANT to survive and
they'll still go ahead and kill themselves anyway!
It's just amazing?
Things like, you CAN do it; you're ABLE to do it; TRY it;
this IS the positive direction you WANT to go in; DON'T let anyone tell
you what you can or can NOT do; using examples of people who HAVE done
it and are DOING it, means ABSOLUTELY nothing!!!!!!
It's kinda neat though, when you think about it?
There's a perfect balance between ATTITUDE and SUCCESS!
Play cover songs and you'll be takin' orders from you're
SUPERIORS till you either have a stroke or you're DrIVeN mAD, or you
can at least TRY and take a SHOT at being ORIGINAL, which means nothing
more than being YOURSELF, which at least gives you shot in the lottery
of life! It's good to see where MOST of you prefer to wind up.
EVERYONE on this planet that knew the Beatles, prior to
their phenominal success, told them, "you CAN'T make a livin' at doin'
that" and "you'll NEVER succeed in that business" and "why don't you
learn a honorable trade like COMPUTERS?" and blah, blah, blah!.........
I'm sure glad they DIDN'T listen!
Might as well try to save as many poor unfortunates as
possible, so here goes...........
"Life is a series of random, GOOD & bad, events, beautifully
strung together, and you've GOT to accentuate the GOOD ones, IF you
WANT to survive?"....from Kurt Vonnegut's "Slaughter House Five".
"NO GUTS, NO GLORY!"
AMEN!
P.S. Let's see? What kind of attitude did John Lennon have?........
"There's NO problems, only SOLUTIONS!"
KEEP BUYIN' THOSE RECORDS,
SKIPP
|
| 2892.74 | | MANTHN::EDD | Enough to bore a blueser... | Wed Feb 23 1994 12:43 | 17 |
| Ya know, reading this string got me to thinking about the old "music
is important" and "give it your all" and "it's my life" attitude. "Let
the child live...", "Adult:== dead", etc...
Frankly, it ain't that important anymore. It's a hobby, an avocation,
a pastime.
I'm not dead, I'm an adult. Those dreams of being a rock star were
replaced long ago by different goals. I just redecorated my living
room and found it far more satisfying than any solo I've pulled off
in the last 2 years.
To even relate to the sentiments expressed by .0 I'd have to lose
at least 1/2 a lifetime, and frankly, I've no desire to be who I
was 20 years ago.
Edd
|
| 2892.75 | Reality, the final frontier... | GOES11::HOUSE | Like a cat caught in a vacuum | Wed Feb 23 1994 12:46 | 1 |
| Say it ain't so, Edd!
|
| 2892.76 | | QRYCHE::STARR | Everyone wants something beautiful.... | Wed Feb 23 1994 12:49 | 9 |
| > EVERYONE on this planet that knew the Beatles, prior to their phenominal
> success, told them, "you CAN'T make a livin' at doin' that" and "you'll
> NEVER succeed in that business" and "why don't you learn a honorable trade
> like COMPUTERS?" and blah, blah, blah!.........
> I'm sure glad they DIDN'T listen!
But gee, didn't the Beatles spend their first couple years as a cover band?
alan
|
| 2892.77 | | MANTHN::EDD | Enough to bore a blueser... | Wed Feb 23 1994 12:59 | 9 |
| > Say it ain't so, Edd.
'fraid so. Ask me anything about curtains.
re: Alan
Let's not let facts get in the way...
Edd
|
| 2892.78 | Mr. Nice Guy! | JUPITR::NLAMOUREUX | STORMIN'NORMAN | Wed Feb 23 1994 13:56 | 29 |
| "ALMOST LIKE FAMILY"
Readin' through these things kinda reminds me of one big
happy family!
Like when ken Olson was in charge and all my fellow workers
kept remindin' me that Digital "would NEVER lay anybody off" and it's
like a FAMILY!
My reply has always been, "Right! And as soon as they DON'T
make a profit, you're gone! It's NOT a family, it's a Business!"
Needless to say, they AIN'T here no more!
You guys are TIGHT and I think that's real nice, as you may be
together for a long, long, long, long, long, long time or maybe NOT?
If you need the arrangement for Stevie's instrumental called
"Riviera Paradise" or Gary Moore's "Still Got The Blues" just let me
know and that way you WON'T have to buy the record, and you WON'T have
to sit there for hours on end, without $$$$$, tryin' to get these COVER
songs down!
Why kill yourself so quickly when you can die drop by drop
here in computer land?
I like this! An "intelligent" form of violence!
So clean and compassionless! Wait a minute are you guys
Policeman W.M.A.?
Just havin' fun here and since I've learned just about every
cover tune there ever was let me know if I can help?
"....Ya gotta pay ya duze if ya wanna sing da bluze...."
Mr. Nice Guy
|
| 2892.79 | what the *%&$ | ROCKER::KNOX | Rock'n'Roll Refugee | Wed Feb 23 1994 14:05 | 8 |
|
RE: -1
Huh???
PS - thanks for the generous offer, but I think I can remember the
four chords to "Still Got the Blues"
|
| 2892.80 | ;^) | USPMLO::DESROCHERS | | Wed Feb 23 1994 14:14 | 6 |
|
So who else is just aching to sign up for the Mad Drivel
fan club?
Eddie Vedder
|
| 2892.81 | | TECRUS::ROST | Clueless and slightly slack | Wed Feb 23 1994 14:27 | 4 |
| So, Norman, when is your band gonna be playing so we can come down and
check it out?
Brian
|
| 2892.82 | BYOsyringe | GOES11::HOUSE | Like a cat caught in a vacuum | Wed Feb 23 1994 14:28 | 4 |
| If the music's anything like his notes, I think I might be
interested...
gh
|
| 2892.83 | so tell me about "originality" | EZ2GET::STEWART | Death before disco | Wed Feb 23 1994 20:05 | 5 |
|
All this babble about originality from a guy using a borrowed nickname?
|
| 2892.84 | | GOES11::HOUSE | Like a cat caught in a vacuum | Wed Feb 23 1994 21:30 | 4 |
| I'll have you know that my nickname is totally original! You don't
hear them calling just *anyone* "Bonehead", now do you?
BH
|
| 2892.85 | | PAVONE::TURNER | | Thu Feb 24 1994 05:54 | 18 |
|
One thing I don't get about this topic: how come so many recently
formed bands are in a hurry to decide whether to do covers OR
originals?
I can understand the need to have a musical direction (i.e. if your
guitarist is heavily into Chet Atkins and the bass player wants to do
ska/bluebeat, then a certain amount of discussion/compromise will be
necessary!), but the covers vs. originals thing should be more a
question of natural evolution. If you've got strong originals, by all
means include them in the set; but if you're on your eighth album, and
there's an obscure cover you've always wanted to do, then there
shouldn't be any obstacles to that either.
I for one would be very reluctant to join a bad that did *just*
originals or *just* covers (especially the former!).
Dom
|
| 2892.86 | | USPMLO::DESROCHERS | | Thu Feb 24 1994 06:57 | 28 |
|
"THE WORD"
Norm, do you want to know a secret? I want to tell you that
til there was you, this conference was just rock & roll music.
I know you don't wanna spoil the party but I'm so tired of
all this I, me, mine stuff.
There's a place for this, boys, and I've got a feeling that,
in the end, Norm just can't carry the weight alone. You can't
do that!
Tomorrow never knows but yesterday, I should have known
better and not taken a ticket to ride on this magical
mystery tour of misery. Next time I'll wait.
As far as I'm concerned, if we all just come together and
let it be, it won't be long before every little thing just
don't bother me!
I know you won't see me when I'm 64 but trust me, it's
getting better all the time. There's really no need
to twist and shout!!
Tom
p.s. I love you
|
| 2892.87 | | TECRUS::ROST | Clueless and slightly slack | Thu Feb 24 1994 07:07 | 45 |
| >One thing I don't get about this topic: how come so many recently
>formed bands are in a hurry to decide whether to do covers OR
>originals?
Oh, that's simple. It's because there are many people who think, like
Norman does, that doing covers is somehow less creative or something.
*Some* bands choose originals because they *can't play covers*, i.e. they
are beginners and can come up with some interesting songs that don't
requires standard technique. Sometimes the band's direction may shift as
the players get more experienced (two good examples I can think of are
Dream Syndicate and the Del Fuegos; both got known for being primitive
garage rock bands, but as they matured, D.S. headed in the direction of
heavy metal (!!) and the Fuegos started sounding like Tom Petty).
On the other hand, some people choose to only do covers because they
either don't/can't write songs, they actually *like* doing the covers,
or they just see it as a way to make money.
I still see a lot of this argument centered too much around rock music
(which is OK, but let's be upfromt about it). There are ways to be a
successful profressional musician that are quite divorced from being in
a rock band...studio musician, show pit band musician, GB (anybody read
that article about Lester Lanin in the NY Times a few months ago? This
guy is the ultimate GB guy, gets $10,000 and up for his gigs), working
at Disney World, etc., etc., etc.
To get totally into another rathole, I disagree with Norman's assertion
that teenagers know what's going on...the same teens who sucked up Milli
Vanilli, NKOTB, Rick Springfield, the Archies, Fabian, the Monkees,
etc.? Kids are very impressionable and easily influenced by the media
(i.e. top 40 radio). Thinking back to my own distant youth, I used to
think that Blue Cheer was as great as the Beatles. I also recall quite
a few bands that had big hits at the time that are all but forgotten
today (Bloodrock, Delaney and Bonnie, Leon Russell, Lee Michaels,
Suygarloaf, Mungo Jerry, etc.). So saying that teens are somehow the
arbiter of music quality (especially since we aren't teens anymore so
how the heck do we know what the heck is good ourselves?).
Playing for teens is easy. Skip the club circuit, try getting high
school dances, college mixers, youth centers, free concerts in the
park, etc. I used to do this. Guess what, the high schools all wanted
to hear cover tunes.
Brian
|
| 2892.88 | | MANTHN::EDD | Enough to bore a blueser... | Thu Feb 24 1994 07:43 | 7 |
| > teenagers know what's going on...
Teens are impressionable and will buy most anything if they think it's
"theirs". They're easy marks for those with little to sell. They've
not the experience to discriminate or discern.
Edd
|
| 2892.89 | Norm's riding a Yellow Submarine! :) | NAVY5::SDANDREA | God bless Tony Tiger.... | Thu Feb 24 1994 08:11 | 8 |
| RE: .86
VERY creative Tom. Those words were vaguely familiar, tho!
8*)
The Walrus
|
| 2892.90 | | USPMLO::DESROCHERS | | Thu Feb 24 1994 08:14 | 5 |
|
Steve - that's cuz it was a cover!!
;^)
|
| 2892.91 | | NWACES::HICKERNELL | Drums must never stop! | Thu Feb 24 1994 09:12 | 5 |
| re: .86
I nominate this for Reply of the Year. Excellent, Tom!
Dave
|
| 2892.92 | | DREGS::BLICKSTEIN | db | Thu Feb 24 1994 14:48 | 11 |
| > My covers sound like originals........bad ones!
That's OK Dawg. Most of the "originals" I hear sound like covers.
Few bands that laud themselves as "originals" bands are truly
"original".
To wit, I got a real chuckle out of Norman's description of how his
band writes tunes: "We come up with a Led Zeppelin riff and then..."
db
|
| 2892.94 | Funny you should mention him... | DREGS::BLICKSTEIN | db | Thu Feb 24 1994 14:57 | 6 |
| re: Whatever happened to Rick Sawyer (Norm's predescessor)?
You guys are gonna think I'm making this up, but Willy Wiegler ran
into him a few years ago.
He's selling bead necklaces and similar "craft" in Florida out of a van.
|
| 2892.96 | Remember us when you're famous Norman | DREGS::BLICKSTEIN | db | Thu Feb 24 1994 15:16 | 21 |
| >> EVERYONE on this planet that knew the Beatles, prior to their phenominal
>> success, told them, "you CAN'T make a livin' at doin' that" and "you'll
>> NEVER succeed in that business" and "why don't you learn a honorable trade
>> like COMPUTERS?" and blah, blah, blah!.........
>> I'm sure glad they DIDN'T listen!
>But gee, didn't the Beatles spend their first couple years as a cover band?
And do you think Tom Scholz would've been able to afford to produce
the first album entirely on his own, when no record company was
interested, if he didn't have that white-collar day job to pay for
it.
Norman... I hate to say this man but... for someone who's touts his
vast experience doing music, you sound EXACTLY like the cliche
MIB naieve teenage garage band members.
I mean you that whole teenage attitude TOTALLY NAILED to the bone
man.
db
|
| 2892.97 | Hi Norm | ELWOOD::CAPOZZO | He who hits first wins | Thu Feb 24 1994 15:18 | 30 |
| I guess I have to get in on this.
First off I know Norm and he is a great guy so don't take him to
seriously, but I do want to make a point.
I have been the type of drummer who has played in many, many cover
bands and made some good money along the way, but I found it to be
somthing that I got tired of and needed a change. So one day about
4 years ago I hooked up with some guys and started doing originals and
nothing but, and yes I would talk to Norm about the band all the time,
and Norm what was your responce???? " Its fun but good luck playing for
nothing". At the time Norm you where in a Beatles tribute band and
telling me how could anybody play any other type of music but the
Beatles. Well I ignored his coments and kept right on doing what I
wanted to do and thats playing originals, did I get anywhere with the
music, yes I did, self satisfaction. The other night Alan Starr and I
where goinging over some of our music and commenting about how we could
spend hours and hours of playing originals, spend all kinds of money on
equipment and practice space and be happy just to have a real good tape
to listen to. Maybe most people can't understand that type of
commitment but I think there is a few people out there who know just
what I'm talking about.
As far as adding covers to a original set, hell ya why not I love other
peoples music. In fact Norm send me a copy of one of your original
songs and our band Culture Shock will do a cover version of it.
Mike__ Stay happy boys and girls.
(can't wait for the next DEC JAM)
|
| 2892.98 | | HEDRON::DAVEB | anti-EMM! anti-EMM! I hate expanded memory!- Dorothy | Thu Feb 24 1994 15:48 | 6 |
| re: Rik Sawyer
It doesn't surprise me in the least that he's selling beads out of a van,
he was probably on tour with the Dead...:-)
dbii
|
| 2892.99 | | GOES11::HOUSE | Like a cat caught in a vacuum | Thu Feb 24 1994 17:09 | 7 |
| As your faithful moderator (why does this make me sound like some odd
breed of dog?), I changed the title of this note to something that
vaguely relates to the discussion it contains.
We thank you for your support.
Greg
|
| 2892.100 | or Spanky vs The Gang? | NAVY5::SDANDREA | Tonya Harding shot the sheriff | Fri Feb 25 1994 08:15 | 5 |
| re: -1
shouldn't you have changed it to "Norm vs Everybody Else"?
8*)
|
| 2892.101 | Test yer skills this month 8^) | ADROID::foster | Interactively challenged | Fri Feb 25 1994 10:12 | 17 |
| We played at Sir Morgan's last night, and remembering what Norm was saying
about selling music to teenages I figured I'd have to write one more note
in here and give Stormin' a homework assignment ;^) !
Starting next Thursday, Wormtown Underground at the Cove will be holding
Alternative competitions. Norm, GO to one! Youngest crowd we've played
to in a long time (I dunno if they liked us or not, but I can tell you
*we* didn't fit in %^}.
Just a broadening your horizons suggestion, it will give ya a little feel
for one aspect of music that's out there right now.
Definitely_heavy_mashing_alternative_say_the_F-word_every_sentence_at_least_
once_and_slam_your_head_into_bricks_and_like_it_Droid
Hey db, hows come when I talked about the DECjam with Neal he mentions
you by name 8^) Been playing down there dude?!
|
| 2892.102 | Yes, we were back once | DREGS::BLICKSTEIN | db | Fri Feb 25 1994 10:46 | 14 |
| > Hey db, hows come when I talked about the DECjam with Neal he mentions
> you by name 8^) Been playing down there dude?!
Yes, we did play another gig there in January and we're trying to
book another. Only problem is, with six people in the band, it's
nearly impossible to find days that everyone can do.
I'm worried he's going to give up on us because he can't find a day
we can do.
BTW, Neal is a REAL nice guy to do band biz with. Not at all like
the typical club-owner stereotype. Least not in my experience.
db
|
| 2892.103 | keep tryin! | ADROID::foster | Interactively challenged | Fri Feb 25 1994 10:56 | 13 |
| >I'm worried he's going to give up on us because he can't find a day
>we can do.
Don't be, he seemed up on trying to get you in when I talked to him...
>BTW, Neal is a REAL nice guy to do band biz with. Not at all like
>the typical club-owner stereotype. Least not in my experience.
Definitely! He seems willing to work with us and realizes we were a
fish outta water last night to %^}
Droid
|
| 2892.104 | he's got a ticket to ride | SPECXN::LEITZ | butch leitz | Fri Feb 25 1994 11:05 | 1 |
| re: .86, great, tom...
|
| 2892.105 | Was I asleep again? | NWACES::HICKERNELL | Drums must never stop! | Fri Feb 25 1994 11:28 | 6 |
| re: db
Dave, was that a Citadel gig? I wanted to catch you guys again. Did you
advertise it in here?
Dave
|
| 2892.106 | | DREGS::BLICKSTEIN | db | Fri Feb 25 1994 13:29 | 10 |
| > Dave, was that a Citadel gig?
Well, it was a "Metropolis (formerly Citadel)" gig. Also, we had
to get a substitute guitar player for Buck who had to go out of town.
> Did you advertise it in here?
Yeah, it was 16.253 (which has since been deleted).
I'll put you on the mailing list in case you miss future notices.
|
| 2892.107 | | NWACES::HICKERNELL | Drums must never stop! | Fri Feb 25 1994 13:47 | 9 |
| Oh yeah, Metropolis. I knew you changed your name. Well, if Buck
wasn't there, what would be the point of going anyway? %^)
(Just kidding there, db, Lance, Tom, et al.)
Sure, sign me up for your mailing list. Dunno how I missed it, but
good help is so hard to find. Thanks.
Dave
|
| 2892.108 | my thoughts | GIDDAY::KNIGHTP | There's room for you inside | Thu Mar 03 1994 17:46 | 41 |
| Covers vs Originals
Cant speak for the US but here in Oz. There is definately more
bucks and gigs to be had (read that as how many times a week you play)
playing covers. And there is more bucks,and gigs in Duo's (that is
just the way the venues have gone ,family bistro's instead of band
barns.).
I used to do original music( my own) and made some demos,got
some airplay, did some gigs, never made a buck , got to play rarely
but I loved every minute of it. It was a really rewarding way to spend
my time. But I simply thought I didn't have what it takes to make it
successfully, I dont mean a big rock star, but success to me is what I
do now, I play 2-3 nights a week, I enjoy myself, I have the best
working relationship of anyone I have ever worked with,I make nearly as
much money as my day gig, that to me is success.
I would dearly love to be involved in an original project again,
and have recently started writing after nearly three years of not putting
pen to paper.
I am a much better musician for doing cover music for the last
three years, than I would have been if I had stayed doing original
music.
An interesting thought: If you don't write the song, or create
your instruments part for the songwriter, would you not be still
playing a "cover".
I dont think you can ever really bring a " I think therefore I am
right attitude " into this type of a discussion, it is basically the
same thread as "blues vs rock" or "is shred dead" etc etc.
The music" business " is just that a business, unless you put
butts through the door who pass their money over the bar, you will
not get work.
Sad but that is the way it is. I admire people who have the faith
and commitment to pursue their original music relentlessly and wish
them the best. I also admire cover musicians as well.
P.K.
|
| 2892.109 | How clearly is "cover" defined? | HYDRA::BECK | Paul Beck | Thu Mar 03 1994 19:46 | 19 |
| Not having time to read all the notes in this topic, it's definition
time ---
Is "cover" generally used to mean *anything* not written by someone in the
band, irrespective of arrangement (or familiarity)? Or is it intended to
reflect an attempt to copy the original sound (including instrumental
arrangement)?
I assume the first definition is what's being discussed, since otherwise
you'd need a third term to indicate "someone else wrote it, but our
arrangement is really unique and nobody does it even remotely like
this".
I'm sort of curious about this, because when I do somebody else's
material, I generally try to make it "mine", fit with my style of play
and arrangement, even to the extend of changing chords and timing
around. Somehow, that doesn't feel like the term "cover" would apply,
in the pejorative sense, but it probably does in the literal sense.
Obviously, I've never looked at the commercial side of music much...
|
| 2892.110 | | ROBRT::VEZINA | | Wed Mar 09 1994 10:16 | 39 |
| Not being a musician, but a lover of music ( all kinds except Rapp & Disco ),
I'll stick my neck out a bit and and perhaps provide an objective perspective
as I don't have to choose camps. As I've said I am not a musician, be it lack
of opportunities, ambition whatever, I've never figured it out.I've been in love
with music since I was a small kid listening to my older sister's 50's rock &roll
while I was banging away on anything that could pass as a drum. Like a lot of
you, I've experienced all of the evolutions that rock has undergone since the
50s, and I still bang away on anything that's available whenever I hear a song
that gets my hands and feet moving ( which is most ). Both of my kids are into
music ( one plays guitar and one is a drummer ) and I make it a point to see to
it that they have the opportunities to pursue and experience all that music
has to offer. I often use this conference to pass on to them what you guys are
out there doing... maybe you never considered yourselves as mentors.
Going out to a club and taking in a great band has still got to be one of lifes
greatest pleasures. For that I thank all of you who are out there doing it.
But I think you guys may be too hard on yourselves.
For me it makes no difference whether the song is original or is a cover. As
long as it is good. If it is a cover, I have the original to gauge against. I
don't expect a to the "T" performance. In fact I often prefer an updated version
where the musicians get to show their stuff ( as long as it fits ). I'd like to
think I can detect an original with no introduction and If it good, it's good.
No two ways about it.
What makes it great depends on whether the band can connect with the audience.
Call it stage presence, larger than life anything you want, but if it's not
there it takes the edge off of the performance, original or covers.
For me, I seem to enjoy a band that is having fun. It's kind of infectious or
kinetic energy and the audience can feel it.
If you're out there posing, they know it and there may as well be some cardboard
cutouts up there on the stage with a good stereo playing in the background.
To have that kind of fun playing, there is no doubt that there are great
musicians up there playing. They are talented and most important comfortable
and confident with what they are doing.
Bob
|
| 2892.111 | | MANTHN::EDD | I live in a suitcase... | Wed Mar 09 1994 10:25 | 8 |
| > I was banging away on anything that could pass as a drum.
> I've never figured it out...I am not a musician
Well, of course not! You're a drummer!
Edd
|
| 2892.112 | once in awhile, a flower pokes through the weeds | RICKS::CALCAGNI | kant sheck dees bluze | Wed Mar 09 1994 12:24 | 6 |
| re .110
Bob, thanks for offering your perspective on this; your reply
was interesting and valuable
/rick
|
| 2892.113 | | NEEPS::IRVINE | Sobriety has it's own drawbacks! | Thu Mar 10 1994 07:52 | 13 |
| Again praise fro .110....
I play in a covers band (1940's -> 1990's All styles, female orientated
rock / pop music / one country song for the hell of it), and on friday
went to a pub after work and cought a band I remember as being a dance
orientated band... All they had done was go from a five piece to a four
piece and beef up the guitar parts. And they were terrific!
They played originals as far as I can remember (don't normally listen
to "dance music", and was prettydrunk by the time they came on!).
Bob
|