Conference napalm::guitar

    
    Edd, you have no 'soul', man ;-) ;-)
    
    	I suppose it's true that 'da blooz' ain't for everyone, but I think
    that can be said for all types of music ( even Neil Young :-) ).  
    
    	I can't think of anything paticular about the blues, be it Bessie
    Smith or John Lee Hooker or Wilson Pickett, but *something* defintely
    strikes a chord in me ( so to speak ).
    
    	On a side note, in two weeks I ( and 3 others ) are going out to
    the House of Blues in Harvard Square ( Dan Ackroyd's place ).  All in
    all, not too exciting, but we will be picked up and dropped off by the
    original Bluesmobile from the Blues Brothers movie.  I'm pretty
    pysched! :-) :-)
    							- Jimbo

    I don't want to interrupt what is bound to be a pretty good
    rumble here in this note, but i thought I'd bring up a small
    nit:
    
    I watched em do some of the filming of the Blues Bros. in Chicago,
    and there wasn't just one Bluesmobile. They had several of them,
    that they seemed to use for different purposes, and different
    shots. Still to ride in one of em would be pretty cool.
    Gas, tires, cigarettes... on a mission from God!
    
    You may now return to your normal controversy
    
    jim

    Some like it, some don't.......end of any meaningful discussion; beyond
    that is like debating religion or politics.
    
    my $.02

    Re -.1
    
    	Oh sure, shatter my illusion! ;-)
    
    	I'm just wondering if he'll be alarming my neighbors with the huge
    megaphone-type attachment on the roof.  I can hope ;-), even if it's
    not the one and only original, I'll be satisfied I'm sure . . .
    
    						Jc

    Dont' forget Jim, you're on a "mission from God"......wear those shades
    and carry a brief case; don't forget the dark suit and white sox.
    
    8)

   Not only were there mutiple cars, but wasn't "the one" pretty trashed by
   the end of the flick?  It'd never pass MA. state inspection.  :-)  Is Dan
   gonna be your chauffeur?

   -- Sam
   

    > pretty good rumble...
    
    Just for the record, while I like a good rumble, my main intent in .0
    isn't to start one. Tom and I have this discusiion endlessly and I
    thought it would make decent notes-fodder.
    
    It's true that I don't find much in the blues, but I don't actively
    dislike them. 
    
    Edd

    re -1
    
    It sorta sounds like some homeless guy in southern California 
    watchin half the state on fire, saying "I didn't mean to start
    it, I was just trying to keep warm.  Oooops!"

	Here we go again, Edd.  But this time in public - not in mail...

	My fascination started big-time when I first heard "Be Careful
	With a Fool" by Johnny Winter.  I've never since been affected
	that strongly by any other guitar song/artist.  Alot is because
	of how old I was, what I had been exposed to, where I was
	heading as a guitarist, etc...  But that tune still absolutely
	rips, imo.

	I abandoned da blooze back in '76 or so.  Music like Weather
	Report, Mahavishnu McLaughlin, Al DiMeola, and yes, Edd, Steely
	Dan turned me into someone who really looked down on 3 chord
	music.  I even called myself Tomm... ;^)

	But altho I stopped listening to it, I never quit playing it.

	It is extrememly difficult to play a Slow Blues tune.  Soul,
	emotion, feel, and tons of restraint are needed to pull it
	off.  It's the epitome of making every single note count -
	overplaying can sound terrible.  In many ways, a slow blues
	solo can be compared to sex...

	As we've seen in the "chords for Stormy Monday" replies, there's
	alot more to it than 3 chords.  I lean towards the swing type
	blues - I love exploring the passing tones of, for example, the
	IIIm - IIIbm - IIm - V7, common to swing blues.
	
	Alot of folks in here don't like what Gary Moore has done with
	the Blues.  I happen to like his playing, tone, tunes, and would
	love to play in a band just like his.  Horn section and all!

	Robben Ford's new stuff is all blues and, while he's not the
	best singer in the world, his band cooks and so does he.

	Few guitarists make me actually feel the strings and fretboard
	in my mind like SRV.  Shoot, I can SEE his ring finger bending
	a note when I listen to him.

	Hendrix's "Red House" is unbelievable - right in the gut.  And
	isn't the jammed "Voodo Child" a blues tune, really?

	Beck's "Cause We Ended as Lovers" is all blues.  It isn't I-IV-V,
	but that's blues.

	"Sittin' on Top of the World" by Cream.  One of the most
	powerful blues tunes I've ever heard.

	Allman's live album - shoulda been called Southern Blues...

	Jeff Healey smokes on blues!  I sure can feel it.

	Edd, you crack me up.  You've admitted to me that you can't play
	blues and say "why bother?  what do I have to say that hasn't been
	said a million times before?".

	I'll tell ya.  In these days of cutbacks, tfso, and on and on, it 
	just plain old feels good to let it all out to the Blues.  Instead
	of concentrating on the progression, you can just close your eyes,
	take a deep breath, and PLAY!!!
				====

	Tommy Summer ;^)

    *Cream's "Sittin on Top of the World" was the first blues tune I heard
    that put that feeling in my gut to "wanna play like that".  I was in
    about 10th or 11th grade and was just discovering the pentatonic
    positions.  Man, I wanted to sound like EC!
    
    *Then EC and Duane hooked up with each other to do Derek's version of
    "Have You Ever Loved a Woman"....the gut still burns.
    
    * SRV's "The Sky is Crying" makes me wonder why so few notes can be so
    hard to play with "that" expression.....
    
    I'm hooked, but I can't explain why, don't even care why....
    
    dawg

    
    	Back a note or two, Steve said debating the value of the blues
    is alot like debating religion or politics. For me, that's absolutely
    correct, because rock & roll basically IS my religion.
    
    	One of the main reason I love the blues so much is it reaches right
    to the core philosophies of my life... the essentials of life, less is
    more, "the farther one travels, the less one knows", all that stuff.
    To me, "technical" music has all the trappings of the modern world
    that I'm trying to avoid. 
    
    	I'm not anti-technology and I sure as hell don't want to live in
    a log cabin on some mountainside strumming a Martin to myself. I've
    only owned 2 acoustic guitars in my life (out of countless electrics)
    and I sold both of those years ago. I can't get by without my
    television, and though I'll never get rid of my LP collection, I
    love CD's. I would have never bought an ADAT if I wasn't interested
    in new & better technology.
    
    	But I'm interested in using new technology to better create the
    raw basics, I guess. 
    
    	Edd mentioned an analogy to food-- that your diet begins with 
    pablum and you soon grow beyond that. I'd use a different analogy
    with food; the blues is like a bowl of Ben & Jerry's chocolate ice 
    cream-- it's plain, simple, basic, easy to understand, and can't be 
    improved upon! You can mix all the extra crap in-- all the nuts, 
    chunks and cookies you want, but it doesn't improve the flavor of the
    basic ice cream... it just makes it taste different.
    
    
    Brad
    A big time ice cream lover  
    

    RE: Brad's
    
    If I had read your reply yesterday, I would have written you in on my
    ballot for Governor of Virginia.  George Allen couldn't have stated
    that point any better.  I tried to use fewer words, tho....kinda like
    playing the blooz, eh?
    
    8)

    'tis true, I can't play 'em to save my soul. Which doesn't equate to
    I haven't tried. Sit down, cop someone else's lick and try to
    internalize it. That's where I stop. I can't make the connection
    whether it's my own attempt or someone elses.
    
    Are there any happy blues tunes?
    
    > I called myself Tomm...
    
    :^)
    
    Edd

    
    Mountaineers have a reply for the inevitable question: 
    
    "If you have to ask why, you'll never understand."
    
    Dave

    >>>Are there any happy blues tunes?
    
    Yes, "The Blooze" by The Fools, a classic
    
    Cheers,
    Ken
    

    I'm not familiar with a lot of blues performers, but I love Robert
    Cray, who I saw last night at The Orpheum.  
    
    I really love the way Johnny Winter plays the guitar. (what a wild
    looking character he is, too! neat)
    
    I, also, really liked Stevie Ray Vaughn.
    
    However, it doesn't take me too long to get bored with John Lee Hooker
    and that slow stuff he does.  (I'll never fully understand what Van
    Morrison - my all-time favorite singer - sees in him.)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    Mr. Page, you're a wizard with analogies.  Bravo!
    
    ( the following is a from some comedian... )
    
    	"You know, I've been listening to a lot of John Lee Hooker's songs
    and, from what I can understand, he's having a little trouble with his
    lady." :-)
    
    	About the Bluesmobile : oh, I don't know about it not passing Mass.
    inspection - it wouldn't pass a *real* state's inspection - but Mass.?? 
    I have no doubt in the world - just look at some of the cabs in Boston!
    
    	I don't think Dan ( or John, for that matter ) will be driving...
    
    	I do have the outfit all picked out, right down to the white socks
    and cheap sunglasses ;-)
    
    						- Jim Blues

    I really liked Tom's many different examples of the blues.  One
    interesting one you might not think of right away and is about as
    far from I-IV-V as you can get: Mingus's "Goodbye Porkpie Hat" is a
    blues.  According to Mingus, the night Lester Young died they just
    started improvising this weird, sad blues on the bandstand and when
    he got home later he scribbled down what he remembered of it.  This
    tune, one of the most poignant and haunting melodies I know, is also
    unmistakably da blooze.
    
    /rick

    The chocolate ice cream analogy at least sheds some light on it for me,
    although (no surprise) I'll always go for off-the-wall flavor instead
    of plain "vanilla" chocolate.
    
    Maybe the things I want to say don't translate to blues, and as a
    result when someone else is crying their eyes out it goes right over
    my head. 99% of the time I just don't relate to it. 
    
    Edd

    I'd say there are some happy blues. I recall a lyric from a 
    Sonny Terry tune:
    
    	Hooray, Hooray! This woman is killing me!
    
    I wonder what he meant.

    
    
    
    
    
    She was probably a belly dancer...
    
    
    

    
    But what a way to go! ;-)
    

    You probably could've derived this from the note I just wrote in the
    Neil Young wars but... here's my take on the blues.
    
    The blues is a lot of fun to play now and then.  However, I can not
    possibly imagine how anyone could be in a strictly blues band and
    not get totally bored to death.
    
    It is, basically one song with some different twists, and changing
    lyrics.  My band does a fair amount of them.  Fred usually kicks them
    off, and I honestly often don't know which one we are doing until
    the lyric kicks in.  But, because I know "the blues song" I can do
    these.
    
    Ironically, I wonder how many blues fans out there dismiss rap as crap
    because it all sounds alike.   Hmmm....
    
    I can, in limited doses, really get into doing the blues.  Hey... it's
    a GREAT song, I guess that's part of why people get up at jams and such
    and play endless variations of this song.  But I can't imagine how
    anyone could play it even close to all the time.
    
    I guess part of why I find myself at odds with the blues is because my
    ear searches for something it hasn't heard before.  Sure, there's room
    for invention within the blues, but why limit yourself?
    
    I guess I just don't get the "zen" of the blues.  But I don't have to.
    

re: .23

DB:

First off, let me say that I have no problem with you not liking the
blues.  That said...

>    It is, basically one song with some different twists, and changing
>    lyrics.  My band does a fair amount of them.  Fred usually kicks them
>    off, and I honestly often don't know which one we are doing until
>    the lyric kicks in.  But, because I know "the blues song" I can do
>    these.
    
That's what *I* used to think.  In fact, with most people one jams with
and even an awful lot of bands, it *is* just one song...the standard
12-bar blues.  However, it isn't really the only song, it's just the
only one that most people play.

I used to pretty much think the same way as you until I hooked up with
a *real* blues afficionado who introduced me to "the other blues songs".
There's really a lot more variety in the blues then you might think.
Nonetheless, I still tend to hate "blues jams" because too many times it's
just playing that "one song" over and over again.

-Hal

    You either like blues or you don't. It's an idiom. Why argue about it?
    It's like arguing that brussel sprouts are good or not.

    I was fortunate enough to have been exposed to a lot of real (not
    remade) blues back in the sixties. Jim Schwall of the Seigal-Schwall
    Blues Band from Chicago with a beat-to-shit Gibson flat top held
    together with tape showed me everything I needed to know about blues.

    I'm afraid that a lot of people pass on blues having never experienced
    the real thing. You ought to have taken in the full frontal assault of
    the Paul Butterfield Blues Band from three tables back.

    --Ron

    re .23, it doesn't sound to me like John Lee Hooker, Robert Cray, and
    Stevie Ray Vaugh were all playing the same song, but you're the
    musician, not me!  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    Arguing "sux/sux-not" is obviously pointless, but db has a lot of my
    feelings. I can't find the zen either. Maybe I haven't suffered enough
    in life. (One would think that sitting thru too many I-IV-V's would
    counter-act that!) 
    
    Even when I've played 'em (I can't play them on guitar or keys, but 
    have tolled thru countless hours on bass) it's always simply an
    exercise in playing the right notes. Emotionless. Meaningless. Can't
    wait till it's over...
    
    I just can't find the zen...
    
    Edd

I don't know if this is true for everyone, but for me the simplicity of the
blues *form* makes it easier to forget the technical aspects of performing and
concentrate purely on the expressive aspects of the music.

Reminds me of exercises which consist of playing a single sustained note and
concentrating purely on the *tone* of that note to the exclusion of all else-
it's that sort of simplicity which can let one long, slowly bending note on
guitar or harp carry more emotion than the most dazzling cadenza. At that moment,
that note is *all* that performer has to think about/feel/concentrate on.

This prolly won't help anyone who doesn't "get" the blues "catch the bug," but
for me at least I think it's why I *do* get them- FWIW.

Bob

    Don't hate me 'cause I'm beautiful, hate me because I don't like the
    blues!  ;^)
    
    Most of db's reply a few back also applies for me.
    
    I think the thing that's really turned me off to the blues is seeing
    too many people turn it into about 4 versions of the same song with
    different words and an obligatory guitar solo that's always too long
    and bores just about everyone (that's not playing it or maybe friends
    of the person playing it) to tears.  
    
    Now I like good blues and blues based rock, as played by people like
    Muddy Waters, BB King, Albert King, SRV, Cream, Hendrix, and many
    others, but it really depends on the song.  I personally don't consider
    a lot of that jazz infused stuff that Tom listed in his note to be
    blues.  Perhaps that's the root, but it doesn't sound like what I call
    "blues" to me.
    
    The bottom line for me is that a lot of players have killed the blues
    for me by making it boring.  It's a lot more fun to play then it is to
    watch/hear someone else play.  Even though I might enjoy doing a 64 bar
    solo that's mostly just masterbation on the instrument, most of the
    time I could really care less about listening to someone else do it. 
    Slam through a quick 12 and get on with the song.  Most of the time it
    loses a lot of it's energy if you keep hackin away at it, even if
    you're a superior player (I'm not).
                                                      
    Also, I honestly don't get a "blue", sad, feeling from listening to
    "the blues".  There is a lot of music that makes me feel sad, but it
    doesn't sound like "the blues" to me.  In a lot of ways, most of the
    blues I like sounds more angry or frustrated then sad.  "Mannish Boy"
    by Muddy is a good example.
    
    Greg
                                              

    I agree with Edd in .0 -- yawn...gimme a NODOZE and a cup of coffee and
    lemme listen to Steve Morse anyoleday...
    
    The Blues are for those somewhere between the "Budweiser" crowd and the
    "Geritol" crowd imvho...

    Re: 25
    
    Rollo, my man!!!!!!!!!!
    

    
    	I've always had kind of a "dual personality" as a musician, and the
    blues plays a large factor in my split personality...
    
    	When I was young & first getting into Rock & Roll, I was into the
    hard rock bands of the time-- Kiss was the big one. (This was '76).
    Peter Frampton was big, Boston... you remember. I bought a guitar at 
    a flea market for $10 bucks and went from there.
    
    	But one night I saw B.B. King on The Tonight Show. My $10 Special
    looked like a poor man's Lucille, which attracted me at first. But
    when I heard BB play, it just sounded so perfect... not too many notes,
    so it was easy to grasp & see what he was doing, but it just sounded
    so good... after all the Hard Rock, pre-Heavy Metal I'd been listening
    to, it just stunned me how he could make so few notes sound so good.
    
    	As my interest in songwriting grew, I discovered just now good the
    Beatles really were; I was thrilled to discover Todd Rundgren, learned
    alot from Pete Townshend, The Band, many more than I can add now... as
    the 80's rolled along, I really appreciated Paul Westerburg, John
    Hiatt... and into the 90's with many great new songwriters... 
    
    	I also continued to listen & enjoy good ol' Rock & Roll bands from 
    The Stones & Led Zep thru Deep Purple & Thin Lizzy thru Van Halen thru
    Pearl Jam & The Red Hot Chili Peppers... I even went thru a big phase 
    in my High School days where I was really into progressive rock-- I 
    listened to Yes, I was a big Emerson, Lake & Palmer fan and I loved Rush...
    but I eventually "outgrew" that phase... the final straw was playing bass
    in a Rush clone band. It just wasn't anywhere near as much fun as
    playing Stones & Who songs... 
    
    	Anyway, the point is (boy, it took me a long time to get to this)
    that as a songwriter my interests are all over the place, but my guitar
    playing has still stayed rooted back in '76 with BB King. When Stevie
    Ray came along with his first LP "Texas Flood", that was a major mile-
    stone for me as a player. And though I've been a big fan of Adrian
    Belew, Joe Satriani and Gary Moore (before his blues conversion), my
    playing has always been centered on BB & Stevie Ray.
    
    	db make some comments about not being able to play in a blues band 
    without getting bored. I've never really played in a straight blues
    band, so I honestly don't know how I'd feel. I've beenn in a few
    country bands (just for the extra $$) and that bored me. As a guitarist, 
    I wouldn't be bored in a blues band, but as a restless songwriter, I 
    probably would. I need an outlet for both "personalities". These days, 
    while I learn my way around my ADAT, I've been working on old blues 
    tunes as practice. This way, I'm keeping my fingers in both pies. 
    I've really got to get working in a band, though.
    
    
    Brad
    

>    The Blues are for those somewhere between the "Budweiser" crowd and the
>    "Geritol" crowd imvho...
    
    It comes out something like a boilermaker, but has a lot more vitamins
    in it.

    Good gahd, db, greg, buck... I thought it was just me!
    
    Edd

    My grandmother used to drink Milk of Magnesia (tm) and vodka.
    
    She called it a Phillips Screwdriver.
    
    Dave

    You are one sick pup!!

         I was at a club recently sitting at the bar and kind of
         half listening to a band when I heard the lead singer say
         "This is our new song Bob the guitarist wrote, It's called Cryin'.
    
         After about 10 minutes of the band playing your typical I-IV-V  
         blues progression along with the standard my-girlfriend-left-me 
         blues lyrics, my friend looked at me and said
                     
                 "Wow, I always wondered who wrote this song"
    
         I was rolling
             -dave-   

    Yeah, I love da blooz, it can make u happy, sad, and lonely.
    Alots of feeling and moo when you listen to da blooz.
    
    Driving down a dirt road in a hot sunny day with a tape of harmonica 
    blowing in your car. That's what I like about da blooz.
     
                                     

>    re .23, it doesn't sound to me like John Lee Hooker, Robert Cray, and
>    Stevie Ray Vaugh were all playing the same song, but you're the
>    musician, not me!  :-)
    
    The feel is different Lorna, and so are the lyrics, but the chords
    are the same.
    
    Have you ever thought about WHY you can have blues jams?
    
    You can HAVE blues jams: because "everybody knows the song".
    
    	db

    Edd, I'm also with you on I-IV-V's.  I hate them - just boring rehash. 
    Fortunately, I have a medical excuse for not playing too many of them
    in one night:  they all tend to be what I call "piano banging" tunes
    where you're just pumping out a chord every 8th notes.  Those are
    MURDER on my hands - exactly the kind of thing that brings on
    tendonitus, Repetitive Motion Syndrome, Carpal Tunnel, etc. etc.
    
    About two years ago I started developing problems that were
    clearly/directly aggravated by doing those kinds of tunes (y'know like
    "Old Tyme Rock and Roll").
    
    I thought to myself, there's no way I'm going to risk developing a
    problem that could prevent me playing music for the sake of doing
    I-IV-V's!!!! No way!
    
    My new Ensoniq TS-10 allows me to set up "jam loops" which you can
    make work like those old "Auto chord" organs.  I figure that if we
    end up having to do too many I-IV-V's I'll just setup a patch so that
    I only need to hold down the tonic and it will bang the chords
    automatically.
    
    	db

    re .39, well, you had a DECjam.  Was everybody playing the same song?
    
    Lorna
    

>     well, you had a DECjam.  Was everybody playing the same song?
    
    No, but it wasn't a jam, either.  It was, as someone already pointed
    out, really a DECshow.  'Course, some of the tunes could have been
    jammed to ("Mustang Sally" comes to mind), but it's not likely anyone
    who didn't know the tunes was going to just sit in with VAXine or
    Citadel.
    
    (And "Mustang Sally" is a blues!)
    
    Dave

    By the way, I want you all to know that there are examples of the blues
    that I *LOVE*.
    
    I love it when Larry Carlton does his "once a night" blues tune.  But
    if he ended up doing a whole night of them, I'd probably leave and
    catch up on my sleep.
    
    I love the ONE blues tune that Morse did.  
    
    I think I'd love the ONE blues tune that any artist did because the
    blues is like tofu, by itself it's almost tasteless but what makes it
    worthwhile is the flavor people add to it.  Thus it serves as an
    interesting "venu" for a players expression of his style.
    
    The only "blues" player that I can listen to a whole album of is 
    Stevie Ray.   Stevie played with such passion and fire (maybe even
    "emotion") that he could probably make the Alley Cat or the Hokey
    Pokey wail.  I mean, look what he did with "Mary had a little Lamb".
    
    But I can't listen to a whole album of people who aspire to be the
    class of blues player that Stevie Ray Vaughan was. 

    I'm doing some "hired gun" bass and/or keybored work for a "classic
    rock" band. After checking them out at a gig one night, the guy came 
    over and asked if I was interested. The pay was good enough, so I said
    "sure, gimme a call."
    
    "Do ya wanna know where we rehearse?"
    
    I'm thinking "Why? I just listened to 2 sets and 90% of what was played
    was I-IV-V."
    
    That progression may well be the very root (and fifth!) of why I'm so
    uninterested in blues. I don't care if I ever hear it again. So not all
    blues tunes use it, but so many of them do! (As well as rock tunes.)
    
    I-IV-V was fun for me at one time, but I took it well past the point 
    where it returned anything to me. I learned alot, but that's history
    now. While no master, I'm just not challenged or excited by that big
    move from A to D.
    
    Booooring. And Dave's right, those 8th notes can be painfull. (Ray
    Pelkey, remember the Elton John tune we used to do, and my cries of
    pain during the ending???:^) )
    
    Edd

>    re .39, well, you had a DECjam.  Was everybody playing the same song?
    
    Despite the name, that wasn't a "jam" Lorna.  Those were (well)
    rehearsed bands. A "jam" is much looser, with people just coming up and
    playing unrehearsed stuff and/or sitting in with other bands.
    
    Hard for me to imagine anyone just coming up and "sitting" in 
    some of the tunes Citadel did if they hadn't known them.
    
    And yet, a "blues jam" is just that: one big jam with people sitting
    in playing the one song that everyone knows.
    
    	db

    re: .42
    
    Notes collision, but interesting that we ended up saying the same thing

	re: Lale and Lorna - hey, look what you two did?!?  Indirectly,
	we're actually talking about MUSIC!!!  

	Welcome, and keep it up!

	re: Greg - huh, "jazz infused"??  The jazz stuff I wrote about
	was music I got into that made me look down at blues.  You
	don't consider Cream, Allmans, Beck, Healey, etc... "jazz
	infused", right?

	re: db - maybe that's the difference.  I don't see blues as being
	only I-IV-V at all.  Goodbye PorkPie Hat, that Rick mentioned, is
	definitely blues to me too.  And I know it's one of your favorite
	tunes.  Another one, and maybe this isn't a good example cuz I
	know Edd doesn't like it, is Pretzel Logic by SD.  That's really
	bluesy to me.  Still got the Blues, by Gary Moore, isn't I-IV-V
	and that's a killer slow blues tune.

	I'd bet that if I were not a guitarist, I wouldn't really care
	for blues either.  Blues is very guitar oriented.  I know Edd's
	not into guitar solo's, period.  His ear goes straight to the
	keys.  From Greg's comments over the years, I know that guitar
	solo's aren't high on his list.  I've heard Buck play and I
	don't see his style of playing fitting the blues.  db would
	rave about a blues album only if Morse put one out - "see,
	he even does blues better than anyone on the planet".  Heck,
	the metal-oriented guys aren't even participating in this
	note!  

	Anyway, if you don't feel it, you don't feel it.  Artists like
	Morse, Steely Dan, EJ, Satch, etc... aren't felt by tons of
	people.  Certainly, 98% of those that do feel it are guitar
	players.  Even tho Classical guitar is highly technical, I just
	don't feel it very much at all.  But I have tons of Joe Pass
	albums that are similar in that they're chord/melody guitar.

	I just feel that bluesy vibe, that's all.  While those great
	Barney Kessel and Herb Ellis albums are in the jazz bin, they
	are swingin' blues to me.  Just added a shuffle feel and a few
	extensions on the chords.

	So, Edd, I don't blame you for not getting it because of your
	situation.  I'll even bet that when the solo to Kid Charlemagne
	comes up, you listen to the keys...

	Tom

    re: The blues is like Tofu
        
    And that's just why people like the blues.  Of course, it's true of any
    music that, to paraphrase Tom Lehrer, "It's like a sewer: what you get
    out of it depends on what you put into it."  But the simple, repetitive
    form of the blues challenges the musician to make something out of
    almost nothing, not to rely on interesting chord changes to mold what
    they have to say.
    
    I think of the blues as being a form, similar to what a sonnet or haiku
    is to poetry.  I certainly can understand why anyone might find the
    form boring in itself.  There are lots of boring blues being played -
    I'm responsible for some of them myself.  And I haven't heard anyone
    say they like *only* the blues and nothing else; I would certainly
    overdose on them if that's all I heard.
    
    I've also heard Carlton's blues and he "blue" me away - wow!  And db,
    if you like Stevie Ray's blues I guess you're on the track after all.
    
    Dave

    The blues can be much more than 1-4-5, as stated, but hey, without that
    1-4-5 stuff most bands would have to spend way too much time trying to
    fill out their set lists with real music  ;~).  The best blues bands that 
    I've seen are anything but all 1-4-5, and usually have a guitarist that
    knows more than one lead scale 8-) , a keyboard player that introduces
    multiple styles, and a captivating lead vocalist.  That's how they keep the 
    audience from snoozing.  Go to Rush Street in Chicago, there really are
    places like the one in "Adventures in Babysitting", where "no one
    leaves 'til they sing the blues", and you won't leave dissapointed. 
    And the jams come naturally, not planned.  
    
    But db has it nailed, usually "the blues" means "that one 'song'" to
    most people/musicians, and everybody has their stock chops for it. 
    Unless the players are unusually creative, it can get real old, real
    fast.  Just look at all of those star-studded music award shows where
    invariably they will end the broadcast with some 1-4-5 tune that has
    some of the finest players on stage at once, and the result is always
    pathetic!
    
    Now Tom Lehrer, THERE'S a performer!
    
    Poisoning Pidgeons In The Park,
    Ken 
    

>	re: db - maybe that's the difference.  I don't see blues as being
>	only I-IV-V at all.  
    
    Neither do I.  
    
    I think what you're missing is that Edd and I are talking about the
    blues and I-IV-V as two kinds of song forms that have been played to
    death.
    
    >Goodbye PorkPie Hat, that Rick mentioned, is definitely blues to me
    >too.  And I know it's one of your favorite tunes. 
    
    
    Different strokes.  Only thing I can find to associate it with the
    blues is that its sorta a sad, cryin' type thing.  I might call
    it jazz infused with blues, but to me its much more jazz than blues.
    
    > db would rave about a blues album only if Morse put one out - "see, he
    > even does blues better than anyone on the planet". 
    
    Perhaps, but only since Stevie Ray left the planet.  ;-)
    
    Actually, I don't regard Morse as a great blues player.  I only meant
    to say that hearing him play the blues is interesting, in a novel
    kind of way.  
    
    Interestingly enough, his one "blues tune" is the only tune I've ever
    performed live myself (at the MIT DECJam).

>	Anyway, if you don't feel it, you don't feel it.  Artists like
>	Morse, Steely Dan, EJ, Satch, etc... aren't felt by tons of
>	people.  
    
    My own theory on this is that the main reason for it is that the
    majority of people want to hear something familiar.  That's why, as but
    one example, the most popular chord forms have choruses and verses
    that repeat.
    
    It's not a question of right and wrong - i.e. people aren't "wrong"
    to want to hear something familiar.   I guess though, that I am
    sometimes frustrated that they don't give credit to people who try
    to push the envelope out a little further.
    
>	So, Edd, I don't blame you for not getting it because of your
>	situation.  I'll even bet that when the solo to Kid Charlemagne
>	comes up, you listen to the keys...
    
    Maybe Edd does, but not me man.  I was going to make you an offer
    in the short-lived Steely Dan thing Edd was putting together to let
    ME do that guitar solo instead of you.  However, if I know you as well
    as I think I do, I probably don't have enough money to make an offer
    you'd consider.
    
    That solo is... well...  IT!
    
    	db
    
    p.s. I still haven't given up on the "Larry Carlton Tribute DECJam band"
         and you can relax, because believe it or not, I want to play keys
         in that band.

	Tom

    > Kid Charlemagne solo...you listen to the keys.
    
    And in support of your thesis, there's this little repeating riff
    during the exit solo that's done on the keyboard. (It's only done
    once during the middle solo.) To me, that riff is all but the signature
    to the solo. Ironically, I had to point it out to Ron, and also to
    you (Tom D).
    
    Irony abounds, as Tom D. pointed out to me yesterday. While my feelings
    about the blues are pretty obvious (p-tui!), if you asked me what song
    I'd choose to live thru eternity with it would be...
    
                         "DEACON BLUES"
    
    Go figure!
    
    Edd

    > I probably don't have enough money...
    
    Given the excitement Tom had about playing that solo, I doubt you
    ever *will* have that kinda money!!
    
    Edd

re: Tom

>	re: Greg - huh, "jazz infused"??  The jazz stuff I wrote about
>	was music I got into that made me look down at blues.  You
>	don't consider Cream, Allmans, Beck, Healey, etc... "jazz
>	infused", right?
    
    Actually a lot of Beck's stuff falls into that category.  But the point
    was that some of the other artists you listed struck me that way, I
    didn't mean to imply that everyone you listed was.
    
    Perhaps a better statement was the of the artists you listed, I saw
    very few of them that played blues exclusively.  I don't consider
    someone who plays a couple of blues songs mixed in with a bunch of
    other stuff a "blues artist".  

>	re: db - maybe that's the difference.  I don't see blues as being
>	only I-IV-V at all.  
    
    Perhaps the difference is the style of blues mutation which you want to
    consider as "blues".  When I think "blues", I think "traditional blues"
    like BB, Hooker, or Muddy.  Yeah, some of their stuff isn't I-IV-V, but
    most of it is.
    
>	I'd bet that if I were not a guitarist, I wouldn't really care
>	for blues either.  Blues is very guitar oriented.  
    
    I agree completely!
    
>    I know Edd's
>	not into guitar solo's, period.  His ear goes straight to the
>	keys.  From Greg's comments over the years, I know that guitar
>	solo's aren't high on his list.  I've heard Buck play and I
>	don't see his style of playing fitting the blues.  db would
>	rave about a blues album only if Morse put one out - "see,
>	he even does blues better than anyone on the planet".  Heck,
>	the metal-oriented guys aren't even participating in this
>	note!  

    Good call...  BTW, are there any "metal oriented guys" left in here,
    other then Coop?
    
    re: Dave H.
        
> And I haven't heard anyone
>    say they like *only* the blues and nothing else; I would certainly
>    overdose on them if that's all I heard.
    
    Actually, I have heard people that said they really didn't like much
    else.  Seems kind of arbitrarily restrictive to me, but hey, that's
    their thing.
    
    FWIW, in honor of THIS note, Sam and I also did a "blues medly" last
    night with one verse from each of about a half dozen songs over the
    same chord progression.  It was really only good for comedic impact,
    besides the fact that pretty much nothing that comes off my fingers
    when I'm playing a solo sounds "blusy" (even though my playing is
    fairly stagnant and my solos are basically blues based).
    
    Greg
                                                            

    re: Tom D. and Jazz blues ...
    
    right on the nose! If you can't feel the blues when you hear
    Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, or Kenny Burrell (or Pat Martino) you
    must be dead. I don't listen to a lot of straight up 12-bar
    blues anymore but those jazz guys evoke the same feelings,
    in a more sophisticated setting. What about "Georgia On My
    Mind"? That's a GREAT blues tune that has some changes that
    you can play over forever.
    
    Stevie Ray Vaughan could play the blues, but the feeling he
    always evoked for me was a real primal "I'm so wasted I can't
    stand up and I've got the blues" type of thing. I need a break
    from that after about 1 song. Same with Billy Gibbons.

    The set from hell: 9 songs of 12-bar, and then the vocalist says
    "We're gonna change the pace a bit to end the evening..." and launches
    into "Johnney B. Goode".
    
    Edd

    
    	re: Greg, if blues were Hooker, BB, etc... then, yes, I'd not
    	like it at all.  Blues goes far, far beyond those guys for me.
    
    	If it's strictly 12-bar, then of course it's limiting.
    
    	I still say that Porkpie Hat is way more blues than jazz.  Esp.
    	Beck's version.
    
    	re: db, ...er, how much would you have offered?  I mean, it was
    	only Steely Dan, for cryin' out loud...
    
    	I also agree with Dave Clark who happens to agree with me back.
    	While Pat Martino is jazz, the feel on his music is blues.  And
    	as anyone who's heard him can easily hear, he's by far the most
    	accomplished guitarist on the damn planet.
    
    	Jeff Beckster
    
    	guess how many ;^)'s
    

    
    	It's absolutely true that many, many bands whip out the ol'
    I-IV-V and thing they're just smokin' on the blues. Those bands
    & performers classify the blues as basically 2 songs; a slow song
    (a la "Texas Flood", Aerosmith's "Reefer Headed Woman"), and a
    fast song (as in "Old Time Rock & Roll" or "Johnny B. Goode").
    Even a die-hard blues fan like me rolls their eyes.
    
    	But still, it's amazing how few people can actually play 
    that simple 3-chord progression well. I've paid my dues in many
    Wedding, classic rock, and country bands; none of them seemed to
    be able to get the swing just right, to really play a shuffle,
    or to get the dynamics together. 
    
    	I think that's one of the things that fascinates me about the
    blues; that something so damn simple can be so hard to get right.
    
    	I also think it's alot harder to play a convincing, unique,
    well-structured & interesting solo over a I-IV-V in alot of ways.
    I find that many songs with strong melodies seem to lead your
    playing down the right path. It's easier to get a clear picture
    where you want to go with your solo. With a simple blues progression,
    it's pretty much an open book-- you have alot more flexability, but
    less direction. And it's awfully hard to play something that's not
    cliche.
    
    	I've been trying for years to write a slow blues song.... I just
    can't do it! It's so hard to get lyrics that don't sound like you've
    heard them a million times. I think if I ever do write one that I
    actually like, it may very well be the crowning achievement of my 
    lyric writing carrer. (And I consider myself more of a songwriter
    than a guitarist, so that would count for alot.)
    
    	Yes, I-IV-V can be boring, but in the right hands, it's magic.
    We can say the blues is all "one song", but when I listen to Stevie
    Ray Vaughan's "Texas Flood" and then "The Sky Is Crying", I hear two
    very different songs, even though they're two slow blues tunes. I
    think Buddy Guy/Junior Wells' "Messin' With The Kid" is very different
    from John Lee Hooker's "Crawling Kingsnake". B.B. King's "There's Gotta
    Be A Better World Somewhere" (my all-time favorite BB song) is a 
    million miles away from Elmore James' "Dust My Broom". 
    
    
    Brad
    

    > I mean, it was only Steely Dan, fer cryin' out loud...
    
    Watch it! Yer skatin' on thin ice here, capo-breath.
    
    Edd

    I noticed a few replies like "Well, I never played in a blues band...",
    well I have, and it's not easy.  The only way it works is when you have
    a good grasp of the subtleties of the music and understand what makes
    one song sound different than another.
    
    Guess what, some of those songs have *melodies*, Dave.  If you don't
    have the right bass line then you aren't playing "Last Night" as far as
    I'm concerned. There are a number of classic blues *instrumentals* that
    have real heads that you're supposed to play.  Even "Johnny B. Goode"
    gets mauled all the time.  Believe it or not folks, Chuck never went
    back to the IV chord in the tenth bar, the way 90% of all bar bands
    play it.  I could go on for hours about how people steamroller the
    tunes into *their* concept of the blues.  
    
    But when you are on the bandstand with someone who really knows the
    music, it's a different story.
    
    Don't get me going, I've played a lot of styles that people say "all
    sound the same"...blues, bluegrass, country, cajun...and the fact is
    that the songs do *not* all sound the same.  Period.
    
    						Brian

    With all due respect to Brian, does the "no IV in 10" *really*
    make JBG sound different?
    
    Edd

    Oh yeah...happy blues tunes:
    
    "Let the Good Times Roll"
    
    "Wang Dang Doodle"
    
    "Caledonia"
    
    "Boogie Chillun"
    
    etc., etc.
    
    							Brian

>    Guess what, some of those songs have *melodies*, Dave.  If you don't
>    have the right bass line then you aren't playing "Last Night" as far as
>    I'm concerned. 
    
    But does it matter that you "aren't playing 'Last Night'"?
    
    It's been years since I've listened to half the blues tunes that db
    wilfred plays (Fred is the blues guy in our band).  Every night we play
    at Stormy Monday BLUES CAFE people tell us blah, blah blah how you
    we are and stuff and yet I rarely even know what tune we're playing.
    
    I'm not saying I'm a such a great blues player - I'm clearly not - but
    what I'm saying is stuff like that hardly seems "essential".
    
>    Don't get me going, I've played a lot of styles that people say "all
>    sound the same"...blues, bluegrass, country, cajun...and the fact is
>    that the songs do *not* all sound the same.  Period.
    
    That's right, that has been proven with an oscilliscope.  ;-)
    
    	db

    
    I want to hear a blues song that begins with
    
       "I didn't wake up this morning..."
    
    JP

    Re: .60
    
    Yes, it does sound different.  In fact, it sounds so different to me
    that I wince when I hear people make that substitution.  The fact that
    I perceive that and you don't is definitely related to why you don't
    like the blues and I do (that is *not* a flame by any stretch of the
    imagination).
    
    							Brian
    

	About 2 weeks ago, this "Far Side" comic was in the paper.
	One of the best I've seen...

	There's 2 very large elephants in the jungle.  One is sitting 
	at a piano, the other one standing right next to him giving
	this advise...

	"Smash you left hand down right about here three times, then
	twice up in this area, then three times right about here..."




	"That's 'Louie Louie'".

    Great note, Brian.

    Well, it may not be *why* I don't like the blues, but it does point out
    they still have some "surprises" left. But, like a box of Cracker Jack,
    the surprise ain't nothing special.
    
    I'm now mentally listening to JBG without the drop, and I'm still 
    yawning...
    
    Edd

    I just got to thinking about the "no IV" thing, and it occured to me
    that even when they're different they still sound the same...
    
    Edd

    Re: .62
    
    Well, I can see this is going into a huge rathole, but I'll bite...
    
    Yes it *does matter* that the bass line should be there when you play
    "Last Night".  It's no different than somebody playing *any*
    composition and leaving out an important part of the structure!  
    
    In other words, if you start from the position that the songs are "all
    the same", then it's easy to say that no portion of the song is
    essential because you already have decided there is nothing unique
    about the song anyway!  
    
    BTW, I can't think of *any* music off hand where I would dare say it
    "all sounds the same" or that "there is only one song".  Even in the
    most primitive roots styles there is *some* feature that distinguishes
    one song from another.  Just because you haven't spent the time to
    figure out what those differences are doesn't mean they don't exist!
    
    							Brian

>Even "Johnny B. Goode"
>    gets mauled all the time.  Believe it or not folks, Chuck never went
>    back to the IV chord in the tenth bar, the way 90% of all bar bands
>    play it.  
    
    Interestingly enough, we played (mauled, ok?) JBG last night and I
    found it interesting when I noticed that Sam was actually playing that
    section of it right (as was I), 'cause I've played that with a buncha
    different people and very few of them actually go back to the I there
    instead of the IV.
    
    You wanna hear music that all sounds alike, you should listen to the
    stuff *I* write!
    
    Greg

    Edd,
    
    Did you ever think you'd meet a blues player advocating the strict
    adherence to a rigid form?
    
    I always thought of "blues" as free-form with a certain loose
    structure.
    
    	db

    Brian,
    
    It's hard to get around the clear fact that the vast majority of blues
    tunes have almost identical chord structures.
    
    Anyone every see that David Alan Grier act on "In Living Colour" where
    he plays this old blues guy who has a song about everything and every
    song is the same except for the lyrics?  
    
    Or... maybe all those tunes he does are different, but in ways to
    subtle for my philistine ears.  ;-)
    
>    BTW, I can't think of *any* music off hand where I would dare say it
>    "all sounds the same" or that "there is only one song".  Even in the
>    most primitive roots styles there is *some* feature that distinguishes
>    one song from another.  Just because you haven't spent the time to
>    figure out what those differences are doesn't mean they don't exist!
    
    The irony here is that there the guys who are always saying that all 
    those heavy metal shredders sound alike are usually big time blues fans
    where the tunes are almost always the same chord progression.  (Not
    saying that Brian has ever said that about heavy metal though - just an
    observation about blues guys in general).
    

    
    	db, I couldn't disagree with your last note more.  You refuse
    	to see that blues goes far beyond I-IV-V, obviously.  
    
    	From a Pat Martino songbook by Steve Kahn;
    
    	"Each music has its own unique language and vocabulary that must
    	be observed to communicate properly.  Simply put, if certain types
    	of phrases and mannerisms don't appear in one's playing, then the
    	"language" is not being spoken properly...  Running through all
    	these song forms and their individual chord progressions is the
    	blues, the "common ground".
    
    	Pat's music is so far from what you and Edd are snoring at, it's
    	ridiculous.  And again, Goodbye Porkpie Hat is Blues.  
    
    	Your "clear fact" is not even close, imo.
    
    	Tom
    

Tom:

Don't confuse DB with facts, his mind is made up.  :-) :-) :-)

-Hal

    Well, I really don't have much else to say except that simplistic chord
    progressions go back a long ways and even Bach and Mozart used them. 
    They are not a crime  8^)  8^)
    
    I guess my only advice is: if there is some kind of music you don't
    like, then you just haven't heard enough of it.  Somewhere there has to
    be an example of good music within that style.  I am 100% convinced of
    that, although I suspect I need to hear more death metal  8^)  8^)
    
    							Ciao,
    
    							Bubbles

    
    RE: db/"In Living Color"...
    
    	"Wrote a song 'bout it... like to play it for ya heah..."
    
    
    	Before I played country I used to think all country sounded the
    same. I'm not a big rap fan, so of course I think alot of rap (not
    all!) sounds the same. Heck, my mother STILL thinks all rock & roll
    sounds the same. 
    
    	Obviously, there's a direct connection between your preferences
    and what you think "sounds all the same."  
    
    	I've never said that all heavy metal sounds the same, but I think
    the fact that many heavy metal songs start on "maximum" and end on
    "maximum" without even a hint of dynamics can make them sound similar.
    That's particularly true of guiar solos. But again, that's only true
    with the weaker metal bands... the best bands use all the tools of the
    trade, regardless of what style of music they play.
    
    	I still argue that even within a slow blues by the same artist,
    such as Stevie Ray's "Texas Flood" and "The Sky Is Crying", there's
    a world of difference. Just the way a handful of notes can be held,
    bent, attacked, and played with different inflections can change
    the mood & your reactions to it... even if it's the "same 3 chords"
    behind it. Maybe the difference is in sensitivity... if you can feel
    those subtle mood shifts, you can see the dramatic distinctions 
    between each song; if you're not sensitive to them, then it all
    sounds like one big, long song.
    
    	So does this mean:
    
    	Bluesmen = sensitive guys for the '90's
    
    	Steely Dan/Dregs Lovin' men = Insensitive, macho ruff 'n' tumble men?
    
    
    
    	Egads! I'm stopping at the local record store's Dregs bin on the
    way home!
    
    
    Brad

re: db

> I always thought of "blues" as free-form with a certain loose structure.

Actually, I hear a lot of players say just the opposite. Eric Clapton is
constantly saying that there is "dictionary" of licks that any blues player
must learn, almost like a formal schooling. I guess the key is where and
when to play those licks....

alan

    So GBPPH is blues. Does that mean there aren't 128,473 blues tunes 
    that don't adhere to the ad hoc "rules"?
    
    I see the points Brian and Tom are making, and I don't dispute the
    validity. But I'd have to take up sides with db; there's just too
    many that are so similar they are all but indistinguishable and
    practically interchangeable.
    
    So I played JBG wrong. Oh well, the rest of the band did too. (Now
    watch. NExt time I have to play it I'll hang on V and come out looking
    like I have two heads...)
    
    Edd

>    It's hard to get around the clear fact that the vast majority of blues
>    tunes have almost identical chord structures.

    RE: db

    I don't think that's a very true statement, Dave. Maybe the vast
    majority of the blues tunes that people maul at the local nightspots.
    But I don't think that the great blues performers do the vast majority
    of their playing strictly around the I-IV-V progression. That's what
    rock players generally jump on when someone says "let's do a blues
    tune". Robert Cray uses lots of variations.

    RE: general

    Also, structure and/or it's complexity/simplicity really is beside the
    point. The idea is to use a simple framework around which one can
    musically express one's emotions. That's the beauty of it. It's supposed
    to be about the expression of feelings. When the player is really using
    the idiom, you can relate all the emotions that you've felt with what
    you're hearing.

    It's a raw, basic form that allows all the complexities of human nature
    take shape. A blues player tells an emotional story, not an intellectual
    one. It's truly an art form, as it doesn't seem to be something most
    rock and roll players can do at all, let alone decently.

    By the way, blues music has never made me feel sad. It's a release, a
    catharsis. It's supposed to make you feel good. Like cursing when you
    hit your hand with the hammer.

    --Ron

    
    More fodder....
    
    
    	I think of a great blues solo like a painting; any decent artist
    can make a good painting with all the colors of the rainbow available--
    it takes a real master to paint beautiful pictures with only 3 colors.
    
    
    	When I think back on our Stormy Monday jam, the highlight of the
    night was not my twiddly slide playing, not the house guitarist's
    ripping "Texas Flood" solo, not even that "be-bop guy"'s comping;
    the highlight was that ol' Dawg Steve hitting that ONE NOTE and
    sustaining it to perfection. That one moment says it all about
    how "less is more"... forget about this I-IV-V 3-chord arguement;
    that moment showed that sometimes ONE NOTE is all you need.
    
    
    Brad "Puppy"
    

Tom>   	db, I couldn't disagree with your last note more.  You refuse
Tom>   	to see that blues goes far beyond I-IV-V, obviously.  
    
Brad>    	I still argue that even within a slow blues by the same artist,
Brad>    such as Stevie Ray's "Texas Flood" and "The Sky Is Crying", there's
Brad>    a world of difference. Just the way a handful of notes can be held,
Brad>    bent, attacked, and played with different inflections can change
Brad>    the mood & your reactions to it... even if it's the "same 3 chords"
Brad>    behind it. Maybe the difference is in sensitivity... if you can feel
Brad>    those subtle mood shifts, you can see the dramatic distinctions 
Brad>    between each song; if you're not sensitive to them, then it all
Brad>    sounds like one big, long song.
    
    Tom and Brad,
    
    The Unplugged version of "Layla" differs from the original version
    in the way handfuls of notes are held, notes, bent, attacked, different
    inflections, blah, blah, blah...
    
    Should we be saying that "it is not the same song" as the original?
    
    James Taylor's cover of "Everyday" has a SIGNIFICANTLY different
    chord chart than the original Buddy Holly version.  Should we be saying
    that "it is not the same song"?
    
    I recognize that there are chordal variations in the blues but
    basically the most of the blues is some variation/derivation of the
    12-bar blues progression.
    
    You see all these variations as "different songs".
    
    I see "playing the blues" as coming up with interpretations/variations
    of "the  same song".  And I'm not even saying that's bad or (as Brian
    put it) a "crime" - I'm saying is that I get bored fast doing the blues
    and this is why.
    
    I'm sorry if that aggravates you, but the view that it's "the same
    song" seems an entirely defensible view. 
    
    > His mind is made up.
    
    I think everyone's mind here is made up.  If not, do you Tom et al is
    ready to be convinced that it's not "the same song"?
    
    I think the source of the heat is that the opinions that Edd, Buck
    and I hold really bugs the shit out of blues fans.  It sure doesn't
    bug me that people play the blues - I play blues myself now and
    then.
    
    	db

>Actually, I hear a lot of players say just the opposite. Eric Clapton is
>constantly saying that there is "dictionary" of licks that any blues player
>must learn, almost like a formal schooling. I guess the key is where and
>when to play those licks....
    
    All I'm saying is that I have more admiration for players who aspire to
    write their own dictionaries.

    > Does that mean there aren't 128,473 blues tunes that don't adhere to
    > the ad hoc "rules"?
    
    Yes.
    
    There's 128,474: I just wrote another while I was in the can.  ;-)

    
    db...
    
    Hey, none of this "bugs the shit" out of me... I just like arguing
    with you!
    
    No, really, I just like talking about it, and I really respect your
    opinion as well as Edd's and the other nay-sayers.... well, maybe
    not Edd's.... :-)
    
    I'm being kind of a devil's advocate, 'cuz I really don't think
    you guys are "insensitive" listeners... it was just a half-baked
    theory I presented for conversation. (Unlike my usual 3/4 baked
    theories.)
    
    	I would not say that Clapton's 2 'Layla" versions are completely
    different songs... However, I would argue that, for example, The
    Beatles' "Got To Get You Into My Life" and Earth, Wind & Fire's
    version of the same song might as well be a different song. And that's
    okay with me. 
    
    Brad
    

    A few observations:
    
    The anti-blues lobby seem bent on defining "da blooze" as a single,
    boring, repetitive chord sequence (that admittedly has been bludgeoned
    into nausea by amateur musicians for decades) despite attempts to point
    out the contrary.  If you really have that narrow a view of what the
    blues is, then it's no wonder you don't like it.
    
    All this focus on the twelve bar chord structure seems misplaced
    to me.  How many chord sequences do think there really are in the
    whole of rock music?  Suprisingly few.  If you've ever done time with
    the Real Book, you'll also notice that jazz standards mostly boil down
    to a few sequences that keep cropping up again and again.  The chords
    are only a small part of what makes the music tick.
    
    For an eye-opener, listen real closely to some of the original Robert
    Johnson recordings.  At first glance, these sound very raw, simple, and
    even sloppy or random.  Spend some time with them; better yet, try to play
    (and sing!) them exactly like the original.  They are surprisingly
    sophisticated under the hood.  Doing something like this is a good way
    to "get" the blues, assuming you've got the desire to do so.
    
    /rick

    re: Ron
    
>    By the way, blues music has never made me feel sad. It's a release, a
>    catharsis. It's supposed to make you feel good. Like cursing when you
>    hit your hand with the hammer.
    
    If I want something that gives me a catharsis like cursing after
    striking myself, I listen to something like Tool.  Blues songs
    don't do it for me.
    
    
    re: Brad-pup
    
>    	When I think back on our Stormy Monday jam, the highlight of the
>    night was not my twiddly slide playing, not the house guitarist's
>    ripping "Texas Flood" solo, not even that "be-bop guy"'s comping;
>    the highlight was that ol' Dawg Steve hitting that ONE NOTE and
>    sustaining it to perfection. 
    
    ...and you guys were just rippin ol' Neil Young up for doing the same
    thing!  ;^)
    
    Seriously, would Steve's one note solo have drawn the same reaction
    from you if you didn't know him from having talked to him in here?

>    That one moment says it all about
>    how "less is more"... forget about this I-IV-V 3-chord arguement;
>    that moment showed that sometimes ONE NOTE is all you need.
    
    Like that rippin single note solo in "I Wanna Be Sedated" by The
    Ramones!
            
    Greg
        

Wow, this note must have broken all records for the number of replies entered in
a short space of time. I've got loads to say on the subject but every time I'm
on the point of entering something, I see there have been another 20+ replies
which I feel obliged to read!

I invariably find that people who criticize the blues have never made a *real*
(or what I consider *real*) attempt to get into it. I recall Eric Clapton being
a guest on a British radio program where he had to choose 12 songs for an
imaginary album to take to a desert island. Well, he had his Champion Jack
Dupree, but he also selected pieces by Brahms and Eric Dolphy! What I'm getting
at is that, although he's obviously turned his ear to a wide variety of music,
he still keeps coming back to the blues; in other words, there must be
*something* in it.

If we lump blues, R&B and rock n'roll in the same bag (fairly reasonable, IMO),
then I think there's enough variety in there to satisfy anyone. Someone
mentioned in an earlier note about blues bands not needing to rehearse - "it's
all just I-IV-V". Well, having played in several bands of this type, I couldn't
agree less!

Scenario: Unrehearsed drummer (bass player, guitarist...) sits in with blues
band for a one-nighter. "Just stick your arm up in the air when it's the last
chorus, then I'll know when to stop" he says to the singer. 

The latter introduces the song: "Next up's an Eddie Cochran number - `Twenty
Flight Rock'". The song commences and our unrehearsed drummer proceeds to make a
pig's ear of it. Sure it's I-IV-V, bit Big Mouth doesn't know that there's no
chord in measures 7 and 13. Result? Shambles. And it's not a case of the
audience not noticing because they're non-musicians - you can bet your ass
they'll notice! I could go on...

Sure, bands who compose entire sets of 12-bars in the keys of E and A can be
pretty tedious (personally I found SRV's music somewhat tedious...extraordinary
guitarist as he was). But if your set is planned imaginatively, this needn't be
the case:

"Key To The Highway" (Big Bill Broonzy) 
"The Thrill Is Gone" (B.B. King) 
"Shake And Finger Pop" (Jr. Walker & the All Stars) 
"I Can't Quit You Baby" (Willie Dixon)
"Brown Eyed Handsome Man" (Chuck Berry)
"Shop Around" (Smokey Robinson & the Miracles)
"Homework" (Otis Rush)

I've stuck to standards here, but all these songs have something particular
about them (minor key, use of 7+9 chords, etc.). Add in harp solos, sax solos,
slide guitar, etc. (I'm afraid I also disagree with the person who earlier
stated that blues is purely music for guitarists) and anything is possible. The
"monotonous" tag could be played to most forms of music (reggae comes to mind),
if you don't take the trouble to "explore" the genre. God knows, most people
who can't stomach Yes/King Crimson/ELP find it "monotonous", for all its fancy
chord shapes. Even if I could play that stuff (and I can't!), I could see
myself walking off stage afterwards feeling like I'd just taken a maths exam!

Take Chuck Berry and what he's done with the 12-bar form (at least 90% of the
time, anyway). I *used* to think his guitar-playing was monotous; I now marvel
at the number of different licks he can get out of the double-stop style. As
for his songwriting, I've always felt that his songs have more to say
(lyrically) than 99% of composers. Too Much Monkey Business, No Money Down and
It Wasn't Me should be obligatory listening for students of the American way of
life. Maybe I'm just taken by someone who (apparently) can say exactly what he
wants to say despite using a fairly restrictive musical form. And there's the
skill!
 
There! I've said what I've wanted without even using the word "emotion", much
less the "if you can't feel it, its not for you" or "it don't mean a thing if
it ain't got swing" arguments. After all, we're all different - and the fact
that we want to make/hear different types of music all contributes to the world
being a better place (musically speaking!).

Dom

P.S. As a blues/R&B devotee, I hear something unique in practically every
tune. Stop choruses, unorthodox turnarounds, false endings, sliding 9th chords,
cross harp wailing...and that's just the musician part of me! 

    Notes like Dom's, rick's and Brian's make me want to go out and form a
    band! I've been frustrated for ummm...decades from playing with people
    that the blues and jam are synonomous.

    Question for blues guys: There's a great little tune on the 1st Steve
    Miller album called "Fanny Mae" written by B. Brown. Who is B. Brown?

    I love this tune. A sort of Chicago style shuffle with plenty of swing.
    I've never been able to teach it to any band I've been in. In Miller's
    version (by the way, I can't stand anything he's done since his second
    album. crap) the harp break in the middle is played double-time,
    triplets I guess. By the time that they break back into the last verse,
    I want to scream. (actually I usually do)

    --Ron

    (There's something about food analogies that works for me...)
    
    I don't care for fish (blues). Sure, you can season them or mix them
    with something else and they become more palatable, but the underlying
    taste of fish (blues), is what puts me off. They taste, well, fishy.
    
    Now, should I eat more fish? Should I learn to like fish? Should I gag
    and revel in the experience? "Fish is real, it's basic." Or should I go
    to the Indian restaurant next door and get a vindaloo? Am I (gasp!) 
    insensitive for not liking fish? Are my other tastes invalidated by my
    dislike of fish? ("How can you say you like food when you don't like 
    fish? Here, try some of my mom's fried grouper!") Does it taste like 
    fish? If it does, I can predict with a high degree of accuracy I won't
    like it, WITHOUT EVEN TASTING IT! It may not be as bad as it could be,
    but it's still fish...
    
    Same with blues. It seems their very essense is what I don't care for.
    Some are far more tolerable than others, but the "flavor" that makes
    them the blues is "fish" to me...
    
    I'm hungry.
    
    Edd
    

>    Seriously, would Steve's one note solo have drawn the same reaction
>    from you if you didn't know him from having talked to him in here?
    
    Yes.  Not all one-note solos would have, but that one would.  Let's
    just say it was the right tool for the job.  My reaction was, "He's
    holding that for twelve bars - what balls!"  %^)  You shoulda been
    there, Gregster, you would have liked it.
    
    Now come on, you guys (where are the ladies when you need them?).  I
    don't perceive any anti-blues faction here, and no one should be trying
    to convince anyone they "should" like any form of music if it doesn't
    grab them.  I like the blues; they say something to me.  Many people
    don't care for them, or don't think they're anything special; I can 
    understand why.  One man's meat, that's all.
    
    But this fish thing, Edd... get with the program!  %^)
    
    Dave

    More listening homework: borrow a copy of Johnny Winters "Second
    Winter" and listen to it start to finish (all three sides!).  It's
    blues.  He even does the dreaded "Johnny B. Goode".  Boring, repetitive
    12-bar jams?  Hardly.  Every song sounds the same?  Not even close.
    Tastes like fish?  You be the judge.
    
    Edd, you claim you don't like "the blues" as a basic premise.  But
    without even knowing you that well, I can guarantee that there are
    hundreds of songs and records that you like that are blues based,
    blues influenced, and even some that are just plain pure blues.  You
    can't escape it; it's one of the cornerstones of American popular
    music, particularly rock and jazz.  If Becker and Fagen were in this
    conference, they'd tell you to your face that Steely Dan has "the
    blues" in their music.
    
    Actually, for a good example of non-blues influenced music, check out
    any of Bill Bruford's "Earthworks" albums.  Earthworks is a jazz-fusion
    quartet (I highly recommend this stuff btw) but they base their music
    on their own traditional British forms, and specifically NOT on blues
    (the way almost all American jazz is).  It sounds like fusion, but you
    can clearly hear the lack of blues influence and it makes you hear that
    influence that much more obviously in the other stuff you listen to.
    
    /rick

    
    	Pretzel Logic
    	Chain Lightning
    	Daddy Don't Live in NYC
    	Boddhisatvva
    	Black Friday
    	FM
    	Your Gold Teeth
    
    	even Do it Again is an easy I-IV-V with a Latin beat.
    
    	Edd, feel free to add many more of your absolute favorites
    	to this list...
    

    First of all, I am not "anti-Blues".  
    
    I am not anti-any kind of music.  I think the "blues types" are far
    more "anti-" than us "Anti-Blues" types.  Most of the heavy metal
    people I've met (as an example) just don't have much to say about
    the blues.  Nothing positive, but nothing negative.  It's the blues/r&b
    types that I hear making negative statements about other kinds of
    music.
    
    Second (as I've said before):
    
    		    I LIKE THE BLUES!!!!
    
    I have quite a few blues records.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if
    I have more blues records than some of you folks calling me "anti-blues".
    
    My band is also one of the personal favorites of the owner of the
    Stormy Monday Blues Cafe.   My band even does blues gigs, although
    (due to my inability to play only in one genre all night and stay
    awake) we don't play exclusively blues.
    
    > I invariably find that people who criticize the blues have never made a
    > *real* (or what I consider *real*) attempt to get into it.
    
    Now you have found variability.  Sorry to have blown your theory.
    
    Or maybe you have unreasonable notions about what a "real" attempt is.
    Hopefully, I do not need to quit my job, move to the Mississippi Delta,
    give up my worldly posessions and sign some sort of contract with
    the devil, consort only with woman who "don't treat me right", etc. etc.
    
    ;-)
    
    re: Brad
    
>                       -<  I just like a good debate!  >-
    
    Since you don't know me from other conferences, let's just say that
    "you came to the right place" and "I'm your man".  ;-)
    
>    Hey, none of this "bugs the shit" out of me... I just like arguing
>    with you!
    
    Glad to hear that.  Glad to hear that others feel that disagreement
    can be a source of "fun" and doesn't necessarily have to imply 
    "heat" or (god forbid) "emotion".  ;-)
    
>    No, really, I just like talking about it, and I really respect your
>    opinion as well as Edd's and the other nay-sayers.... well, maybe
>    not Edd's.... :-)
    
    Likewise - both about me respecting your opinions... and not respecting
    Edd's  ;-)
    
    > YOu are insensitive listeners.
    
    I thought I was just "unemotional".  ;-)
    
    re: rick
    
    >     The anti-blues lobby seem bent on defining "da blooze" as a single,
>     boring, repetitive chord sequence (that admittedly has been bludgeoned
>    into nausea by amateur musicians for decades) despite attempts to point
>    out the contrary.  If you really have that narrow a view of what the
>    blues is, then it's no wonder you don't like it.
    
    To me this is like saying "anti-pop-rock types are bent on saying
    that pop rock is nothing but 4/4 verse/chorus/bridges ditties."
    
    In both cases, as a general statement it's clearly true.  As an
    absolute statement... yeah, there are some counter-examples.
    
    ...and I know a guy who smoked 3 packs of Camels a day and never got
    cancer.
    
>    All this focus on the twelve bar chord structure seems misplaced
>    to me.  How many chord sequences do think there really are in the
>    whole of rock music?  
    
    Depends on how you define rock of course.  I agree with you, there are
    only a couple.  If you define rock to include "Progressive" bands
    it expands, but frankly, I don't regard that as "straight rock" and
    I don't regard the counter-examples you've provided as "straight
    blues".
    
    Tom has been harping on "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat" as blues cause he knows
    I love that tune.
    
    Ironically that's a tune written by a jazz artist and covered by a
    rock/fusion guy.   Sure, it's "bluesy" but it AIN'T the blues as far as
    I'm  concerned although it's inspired by the blues.
    
    I'm not against infusing other genres with the blues, or infusing
    the blues with other genres.  
    
    But I'll tell you something - I can't hear B. B. King doing anything
    like the Jeff Beck version.   I love B.B. (albeit in limited doses)
    but frankly, I think he himself would tell you that he couldn't solo
    over that.  He can't do it because that ain't a close enough variation
    of "the blues song".
    
>    For an eye-opener, listen real closely to some of the original Robert
>    Johnson recordings.  At first glance, these sound very raw, simple, and
>    even sloppy or random.  Spend some time with them; better yet, try to play
>    (and sing!) them exactly like the original.  They are surprisingly
>    sophisticated under the hood.  Doing something like this is a good way
>    to "get" the blues, assuming you've got the desire to do so.
    
    I have a copy of that CD collection.  I agree with you, there was a
    lot of neat stuff going on in that guys music.  On the other, wasn't
    90% of it "the blues song" (12 bar)?
    
    So yes, there is room for variety and creativity within it.
    
    But there's a LOT more room for variety and creativity when you don't
    constrain yourself to it.
    
    Maybe that's why I like "Pork Pie Hat".  It takes the best elements of
    blues but it pushes the envelope.
    
    	db

>    Edd, you claim you don't like "the blues" as a basic premise.  But
>    without even knowing you that well, I can guarantee that there are
>    hundreds of songs and records that you like that are blues based,
>    blues influenced, and even some that are just plain pure blues.  You
>    can't escape it; it's one of the cornerstones of American popular
>    music, particularly rock and jazz.  If Becker and Fagen were in this
>    conference, they'd tell you to your face that Steely Dan has "the
>    blues" in their music.
    
    I think you're misunderstanding Edd.
    
    I don't think he is against the blues as a basic premise.  I think
    he's against it as the only premise.
    
    I don't think Edd is against drawing on the blues.  I think he's
    against being limited only to it.  He respects people who push
    the envelope of the blues by using it to create something new.
    He doesn't respect people who just play the blues without pushing
    the envelope.
    
    How I'm doing Edd?  ;-)
    
    	db

    
    	re: Tom harping - "I'm a man, I spell M!!  A!!  N"
    
    	Wutta a slip, db!
    

    2845.23	Why I am not into the blues, by David Blickstein
    
    2845.93	I LIKE THE BLUES!!!  -db

    re: .-1
    
    >    2845.23     Why I am not into the blues, by David Blickstein
    >    2845.93     I LIKE THE BLUES!!!  -db
    
    >  Which is it?
    
    The answer is IN 23.
    
    	"The blues is a lot of fun to play now and then.  However, I can not
    	possibly imagine how anyone could be in a strictly blues band and not
    	get totally bored to death."
    
    I like (listening to) the blues (occasionally), but I'm not "into"
    doing it on a regular basis because it gets boring fast and don't
    like to be constrained to one thing  (song/genre/whatever).

    re: .92
    
    	>Pretzel Logic
    	>Chain Lightning
    	>Daddy Don't Live in NYC
    	>Boddhisatvva
    	>Black Friday
    	>FM
    	>Your Gold Teeth
    
    
    To carry on the thread:
    
    Peg
    Josie
    Home At Last
    
    Actually, it's by no means my favorite SD album, but I think most of
    "Aja" is R&B-based. I've always said that I'd love to know what artists
    Becker & Fagen listened to in their younger days. Insular fellows that
    they are, I suppose we shall never know.
    
    Re. the Johnny Winter recommendation: I'll bear that in mind. His album
    "The Progressive Blues Experiment" was fundamental in forming my
    tastes. It's 100% blues (i.e. no rock crossover), but he dabbles at
    every blues style - from folk-blues with a national steel guitar to a
    cracking cover of Slim Harpo's "Got Love If You Want It".
    
    Further homework (if you can get hold of a copy!): try listening to
    "Save The Wail", an aptly-titled 1979 offering by the Lew Lewis
    Reformer. Any band that covers James Brown, the J. Geils Band, Tom
    Petty, Little Walter and early Status Quo on the same record has got to
    be worth a listen! It's possibly the most agressive (and varied) R&B I've 
    ever heard.
    
    Going back to the thread about "blues musicians not extending musical 
    frontiers", it made me think of a comment by Jimi Hendrix, no less. He
    said words to the effect that whenever he went to see a new band, the
    first thing he looked for was "feeling", followed by "togetherness".
    "Originality" was way down the list.
    
    Dom
       

    Personally, I have a limited tolerance for 3-chord music, but I've
    always enjoyed jazz blues, both as a listener and a player.
    
    The blues in jazz presents a somewhat different aspect than in blues or
    rock music, being used more as a color than as an end. Many classic
    jazz recordings include several tunes based on the blues, but there
    were few that were completely devoted to this form. Considering that
    the range of jazz artists who have recorded blues tunes ranges from
    Armstrong to Bird to Christian to Monk to Miles to Kenton to Wes to
    Blakey to the MJQ to Coltrane to Dolphy to Russell...anyway, it's hard
    for me to accept that each of these interpreters of the blues sound
    even vaguely similar, no less "all the same."
    
    The use of blues in jazz  tends to be less rigidly applied than blues
    or rock music, too. Although jazz blues are based on
    tonic-subdominant-dominant changes, the chords are rarely the basic
    I-IV-I-V7-IV-I that is prevalent elsewhere, but instead use the key
    centers as a reference, often with IIm7-V cycles or cycle of fifths
    providing harmonic movement. Two examples of jazz blues changes in F:
    
    (bars set off by :  :)
    
    Tonic                    Subdom.        Dom.   Turnaround
    F#7 B7:E7 A7:D7 G7:C7 F7: Bb7:A7:Ab7:G7:C7:Bb7:F:D:B:Ab
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Tonic                                                           
    FM7;Em7 Ebm7:Dm7 Ddm7:Cm7 Bm7:
    
    Subdominant                   Dominant      Turnaround
    BbM7:Bbm7 Eb7:Em7 A7:Abm7 Db7:Dm7 G7:Gm7 C7:F7 Bb7:B7 Gb7
    
    
    These changes could hardly be more different, and the tunes likely to
    be played over them would probably be substantially dissimilar, yet any
    experienced jazz listener would immediately identify both of them as
    jazz blues.
    
    Danny W.

    > How am I doing Edd? (by db)
    
    You've got it close enough. In my mind, blues qualifies as "been there,
    done that, (and most importantly!) WHAT'S NEXT!!"
    
    Naming lotsa Steely Dan tunes that are blues-based proves little. Much
    of contemporary music is blues based. But take a tune like
    "Boddhisatvva". Simple "blues" progression, until "Can you show me the
    shine of your Japan" where it "pushes the envelope" more than a tad.
    
    Pretzel Login and Chain Lightening are probably 2 of my least favorite
    Steely Dan tunes, precisely because they don't stretch too far.
    
    Who did B&F listen to? Fagen's mother was a big band singer, and he got
    turned on to that real young. Both of them were self-admitted "jazz
    snobs". I can name names later...
    
    Edd

    re: .93
    
    >I am not anti-any kind of music.  I think the "blues types" are far
    >more "anti-" than us "Anti-Blues" types.  Most of the heavy metal
    >people I've met (as an example) just don't have much to say about
    >the blues.  Nothing positive, but nothing negative.  It's the blues/r&b
    >types that I hear making negative statements about other kinds of
    >music.
    
    Funny that! I personally think blues/R&B should be nicknamed "common
    denominator" music - it crops up in just about every musical style that
    exists. So you'll usually find that someone who likes Howlin' Wolf
    doesn't have to make a great adjustment in order to appreciate the
    Ramones. As for the eclectic tastes of the heavy metal crowd...yeah,
    sure. They like speed metal, thrash metal, death metal...;-)
    
    >Now you have found variability.  Sorry to have blown your theory.
    
    If you do us the honour of naming some names, then we might even be
    able to test that theory...before you blow it, of course! 
    
    Then again, maybe *you* are the exception (because in my personal
    experience, that is the case). Sincerely, I do find most "blues haters"
    to be like those people who go on two month round-the-world cruises and
    come back saying:
    
       "Didn't like China much. Australia wasn't too bad, though!"
    
    Oh, and by the way, I've never ever attempted to change other people's
    tastes - life's too short and I've got my own listening to do! In other
    words, your lukewarm relationship with THE BLOOZ doesn't bother me one
    iota. You seem to get on perfectly well with Steve Morse as your staple
    diet.
    
    Dom

    >Naming lotsa Steely Dan tunes that are blues-based proves little. Much
    >of contemporary music is blues based. But take a tune like
    >"Boddhisatvva". Simple "blues" progression, until "Can you show me the
    >shine of your Japan" where it "pushes the envelope" more than a tad.
    
    Exactly. Our point entirely!
    
    Dom

    None of the "envelope pushers" are denying that the blues is the
    foundation for much of contemporary western music. Trying to make that 
    point to us is redundant. 
    
    What we get bored with is the "back to basics" stuff. Boddisatva takes 
    what appears to be a simple tune and pushes the envelope to a point
    where it becomes interesting. Does "Johnney B. Goode" even approach the
    point?
    
    Edd

    I guess the only common thread I see among the people in these replies
    who seem to have a "blues challenged point of view" (is this PC enuff?)
    is that what they really don't like is listening to or playing the same
    boring, repetitive twelve bar chord form using the same old repetitive,
    tired, overused riffs, licks and lyrics.  Hey, I guess that means I'm
    with you guys... I don't like those blooze either!
    
    Funny, most of what I call blues and listen to and like is what you
    call "pushing the envelope".  I just still call em the blues.
    
    /rick

      > much ado about nothing I suppose (big surprise :-) 
    
    I'm inclined to agree! But I still think it's the basis for a good
    debate.                  
    
    Next week's discussion? "Progressive Music and Self-indulgence: One and
    the Same?".
    
    You have the weekend to document yourselves.
    
    Dom (a veteran of the First Blues War - remember the "Is Shred Dead?"
                                                          note?) 
                                                                 
    

    > much ado about nothing I suppose (big surprise :-)
    
    Made for a hell of a note tho, didnit? :^)
    
    Edd

    re: Dave H.                                                       
    
>    Yes.  Not all one-note solos would have, but that one would.  Let's
>    just say it was the right tool for the job.  My reaction was, "He's
>    holding that for twelve bars - what balls!"  %^)  You shoulda been
>    there, Gregster, you would have liked it.
    
    Oh yeah, I probably would have.  I like that kind of thing, and I'm
    pretty tolerant of what I watch someone do live, as long as it's not
    *too* boring.  And I'm especially accepting if it's a friend's band
    playing it (except possibly when it comes to guitar tones, but that's
    just my pet peeve, it won't generally make me leave).
    
>    Now come on, you guys (where are the ladies when you need them?).  I
>    don't perceive any anti-blues faction here, and no one should be trying
>    to convince anyone they "should" like any form of music if it doesn't
>    grab them.  
    
    Face it, the blues suck.  You blues heads need to come into line with
    the rest of the musical world and start listening to something that has
    some variety to it.
    
    re: Rick
    
    He's fallen and...                   
    
>      -< I can't shut up :-) >-
    
    re: db
    
>    I am not anti-any kind of music.  I think the "blues types" are far
>    more "anti-" than us "Anti-Blues" types.  Most of the heavy metal
>    people I've met (as an example) just don't have much to say about
>    the blues.  Nothing positive, but nothing negative.  It's the blues/r&b
>    types that I hear making negative statements about other kinds of
>    music.
    
    I have to agree with this.  The people I've known that were heavily
    into the blues (and "classic rock") were consistantly the people who
    were intolerant (and vocal about it) of many other types of music.
    
    Greg

>>    I don't perceive any anti-blues faction here,
    
>    Face it, the blues suck.
    
    Well, so much for diplomacy.  Greg, this must be that other personality
    of yours, eh?
    
    Dave

    
    Ok, here's some thoughts about stuff said in the dozens of notes that
    popped in here while I was composing .108...
    
    re: Dom
    
> As for the eclectic tastes of the heavy metal crowd...yeah,
>    sure. They like speed metal, thrash metal, death metal...;-)
    
    I don't think he was trying to say their tastes are generally that
    broad, they are in fact very limited, the point I think db is making is
    that the intolerant blues/r&b lovers are very vocal about how much they
    hate the other types of music, while the intolerant metal lovers tend
    to not talk about the stuff they don't like as much.  That could be
    because of the age factor though, as blues lovers are generally an
    older crowd then metal lovers and a lot of people get more vocal about
    our opinions as we age ("What'd you say, Crusty?")
    
    re: Rick
    
>        I guess the only common thread I see among the people in these replies
>    who seem to have a "blues challenged point of view" (is this PC enuff?)
>    is that what they really don't like is listening to or playing the same
>    boring, repetitive twelve bar chord form using the same old repetitive,
>    tired, overused riffs, licks and lyrics.  Hey, I guess that means I'm
>    with you guys... I don't like those blooze either!
>    
>    Funny, most of what I call blues and listen to and like is what you
>    call "pushing the envelope".  I just still call em the blues.
 
    I think that's the differentiating factor, I *don't* call most of that
    stuff the blues.  To me, if it's an funk song, it ain't a blues song. 
    If it's a jazz song, it ain't a blues song.  If it's a rock song, it
    ain't a blues song.  If it's a reggae song, it ain't a blues song.
    I don't care if it has elements of the blues, of a bit of blues "feel"
    to it, it's not a blues song if that's not the primary genre that it
    falls into.
    
    Greg

>>>    I don't perceive any anti-blues faction here,
>>    Face it, the blues suck.
>    
>    Well, so much for diplomacy.  Greg, this must be that other personality
>    of yours, eh?
    
    ;^)
    
    Someone had to say it, all these heavily couched terms for things were
    getting on my nerves.
    
    Greg (who really doesn't hate the blues, just discussions that don't
          have enough humor in 'em)

    I like some blues but not all the time.I have to be in the right frame
    of mind.Personal favourites of mine are Jeff Healy,Steely Dan and some
    of the older stuff.
    
    
    					ian

    
    Speaking as a complete non-authority....
    
    Three-chord music forms (and their associated simple boxes) exist so
    you can still play when shiffazed.
    
    JP

>    I don't think he was trying to say their tastes are generally that
>    broad, they are in fact very limited, the point I think db is making is
>    that the intolerant blues/r&b lovers are very vocal about how much they
>    hate the other types of music, while the intolerant metal lovers tend
>    to not talk about the stuff they don't like as much.  
    
    Yes, but I also tried to point out an irony.
    
    Part of why I am so interested in this discussion is that what you hear
    so often from blues-types about metal/shredding/rap/pop, i.e. "it all
    sounds the same" is not only equally applicable to blues, but probably
    even more because it IS even (largely) the same song!
    
    I mean, I think it goes beyond "ironic" that a blues-lover would put
    down metal, shredders or rap by saying it all sounds the same.   I
    would say it goes into the realm of "chutzpah�" to say that.
    
    The lesson here is that we should all learn to understand that music
    we don't like isn't bad, it's that we haven't developed an
    "appreciation" for it.
    
    Obviously some of you blues-types have an appreciation that allows
    you to distinguish one artist or song from another.
    
    But that's true of metal types.  Someone may love Chastain and hate
    Tony MacAlpine even though to a blues-type, they sound the same.
    
    Same thing goes for rap, even though (I would expect) almost everyone
    in here thinks it all sounds the same (except for Tone Loc, he IS
    cool!).
    
    So part of why I've stirred this fire is, frankly, I wish you
    devotees would stop putting down metal, progressive, etc. because
    the things you are saying about it apply strongly to the blues as
    well and that puts you in a glass house.
    
    	db
    
     � "Chutzpah" is a Yiddish (jewish) word.  Like most jewish words
    	it's hard to define in english.  It sorta means "nerve" but it's
    	best defined by example:
    
    	   Chutzpah is what it takes for the guy who murdered his
    	   parents in cold blood to beg mercy from the court on
    	   the count of him being an orphan.
    
        ;-)

    >>  even more because it IS even (largely) the same song!
    
    Dave, no matter how many times you repeat this, it still won't make it
    true
    

    Rick,
    
    What I am saying IS true.  Most of the blues is a variation on one
    basic chord progression.
    
    I think your "objection" (if you will) to what I'm saying is that
    the myriad of variations that can be applied to that progression
    define distinct songs.
    
    That's not a matter of "true" or "false".  
    
    That, is a matter of opinion.  
    
    You have yours.  We have ours.
    
    Peace,
    
    	db

re: .116

>    What I am saying IS true.  Most of the blues is a variation on one
>    basic chord progression.
    
DB:

There's more to a song than the chord progression.

I don't know why I'm trying to argue with you.  You're a much better
debater than I am.  Nonetheless, just 'cause you argue the best doesn't
necessarily mean that you're right.

-Hal

    My real objection is that the phrase "it's only one song" is being used
    as a "reason" to dislike, discount, or (pick your favorite negation
    verb of any degree you choose) the blues.  Besides the fact that I
    think this phrase itself grossly oversimplifies and mistates the point
    (I notice we're now at least admitting to "myriad variations" here :-), 
    I also don't agree that this is a good argument.  For example, there are
    only twelve lowsy scale tones in all of Western music (but myriad
    variations :-).
    
    My feeling is: you seem to be focusing on one particular common aspect
    of the blues, perhaps the simplest and most obvious one of all.  And it
    sounds like that focus may be preventing you (not singling out db here,
    more all you dreaded "anti-blues" police :-) from seeing the real depth
    and beauty of some of this music.  Or maybe not, but it's an idea.
    
    /rick

    re: .114
    
    Now db, just don't *you* make the assumption that because some blues
    afficionados are blues bigots we all are.  You're not saying that, are
    you?
    
    Dave

    
    	Of course not - we just got his mojo workin'...
    
    	;^D
    

>    You're not saying that, are you?                                       
    
    Well, if he's not, then *I* am!  C'mon into the 20th century, Crusty!
    

re: Gre

> The people I've known that were heavily into the blues (and "classic rock") 
> were consistantly the people who were intolerant (and vocal about it) of 
> many other types of music.

Come on now, Greg, I'm living proof that the above statement isn't true!

alan

    Bluesers,
    
    I have a question for you - I appeal to you to make an intellectually
    honest reply.
    
    Suppose Madonna comes with a new tune called "LayMe".  It has the
    general chord progression of "Layla" but the instrumentation is all
    different, she uses a synth bass, adds a hip hop beat, changes the
    rhythm and the melody a bit and maybe puts some new words to it (like
    "LayME, got you 'tween my knees, LayMe you really aim to please...").
    
    A rash of Eric Clapton fans are... well, they are just incensed and
    one of the things they are saying is "it's the same song".
    
    Is it "unfair" for them to say that?  Is it an "oversimplification"?
    
    	db

    Kinda silly comparison, isn't it, db?

>    Kinda silly comparison, isn't it, db?
    
    But it's a great parody!  db, you oughtta be writing for Weird Al.  %^)
    
    Dave

re: .123

>    Suppose Madonna comes with a new tune called "LayMe".  It has the
>    general chord progression of "Layla" but the instrumentation is all
>    different, she uses a synth bass, adds a hip hop beat, changes the
>    rhythm and the melody a bit and maybe puts some new words to it (like
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    "LayME, got you 'tween my knees, LayMe you really aim to please...").

Dave:

I'd say it depends on how much you mean by "a bit", and how many you mean
by "some".  The melody and words are just as integral part of a song as
the chord progression, perhaps even more so.

"Living on Tulsa Time" and "Achy Breaky Heart" (yuk!) have identical
chord progressions and are darn near identical rhythmically, but they
are by no means the same song.  Both *bad* songs, perhaps (actually I
secretly like "Tulsa Time"), not definitely not the same song.  Sorry
about using country (more or less) songs for examples in a conference
where a lot of people might not be familiar with the genre, but it was
the most obvious example I could think up quickly.

-Hal

P.S.  Actually, I thought the "unplugged" (gawd I hate that term!) version
of "Layla" was kind of trying to be a different song than the original.
He definitely changed the melody on the verses (guess he can't sing that
high screechy stuff anymore :-).  Perhaps iot all boils down to being
a matter of degree.

    re: Alan
    
>Come on now, Greg, I'm living proof that the above statement isn't true!

    There are exceptions to every rule, bro.
    
    re: db
    
    C'mon, she already did that one.
    
    Greg

    
    
    
    	Come down to Stormy Monday's on Monday & here me debut my new
    single, "LayMe"!
    
    

>    Now db, just don't *you* make the assumption that because some blues
>    afficionados are blues bigots we all are.  You're not saying that, are
>    you?
    
    Definitely not. I know plenty of counter-examples (in addition to Alan).
    
    However, what we (Greg and I) are saying is that there is a strong
    correlation between appreciating the blues and putting down technical
    playing.
    
    I'm saying that there is a "stereotypical" (let's call it that) blueser
    that says that heavy metal and progressive stuff is garbage.  You 
    generally don't find heavy-metalurgists and prog-rockers putting down 
    the blues.  Heck, nowadays it's even "trendy" for them to do some
    blues.
    
    This conference has been in existence for years.   We've been having
    clashes over "speed is bad", "self-indulgence", "flash for flash sake",
    "pompous" for as long as it's been in existence.  This largely comes
    from R&B and blues types.
    
    Can you find me ONE example prior to this note, where a heavy metal
    player or a prog-rocker has put down the blues?  Just one?
    
    There's a pompous attitude that seems to (often) accompany blues/R&B
    appreciation that these other forms of music are bad or (another
    one) reflect "immaturity" and etc.
    
    The vigor I have in participating in this note comes from finally
    having the opportunity to say "Shut up!  Everything you are saying
    about it all sounding the same can also be said of the blues."
    
    			"CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?"
    ;-)
    
    The next time you feel compelled to put something down (like saying
    "all those shredders sound the same" I want you all to run thru the
    things that have been said here in defense of the blues (which include):
    
    	o "It's more than just the chord progression that make up a song"
    
    	o "People who criticize it have never made a *real* (or what 
    	  attempt to get into it."
    
    	o "it takes a real master to paint beautiful pictures with only 3
    	   colors"
    
    	o "if there is some kind of music you don't like, then you just 
           haven't heard enough of it"
    
    	o etc.
    
    These are all words of wisdom.  I only ask that we attempt to apply
    them equally.
    
    	db

    > Kinda silly comparison, isn't it, db?
    
    Ahh... now we're getting somewhere!
    
    It is silly only from your perspective.
    
    To Edd, Greg and I it's silly (as well as futile) to say that the
    "subtle" differences between blues songs that all use the same basic
    progression in one of a grand total of two keys, and are about  how "my
    baby done left me" and are all CLEARLY derived from one another
    constitutes "different songs".
    
    Think of how many blues tunes that applies to.  Geez, if I wrote a
    book on "Blues Musicians Who Love Too Much" I could probably retire
    early.  ;-)
    
    	db

    > Come down to Stormy Monday's on Monday & here me debut my new
    > single, "LayMe"!
    
    I'm there man!
    
    ;-)

>    generally don't find heavy-metalurgists and prog-rockers putting down 
>    the blues.  Heck, nowadays it's even "trendy" for them to do some
>    blues.
    
    Yet another reason to hate the blues!
    
    ;^)

    man, this topic has left the planet!
    

Coming back after the weekend, I see that this note hasn't lost any of its
vitality! I'm very much of the "live and let live" school, but seeing as the
prosecution are still firing on all cylinders...

Actually, I've got no problem whatsoever with anything you guys have said in
the last 130+ notes, with the exception of the following (paraphrased)
statements:

1)"It's all the same song!" I was hoping I'd killed this one dead with my
little scenario in .87 - obviously not. 

Maybe your relationship with THE BLOOZ is exactly like my relationship with the
motor car; the only attraction that cars hold for me is that they help me get
from A to B. Some people rave about California custom styling, mag wheels, etc.
I don't even notice (Chuck Berry certainly didn't write all those automobile
songs for me!) To me they're just four-wheeled vehicles and the rest is
superfluous - if I want to remember what car someone drives, it had better be
an unusual colour! I remember when I took  driving test a few years back, I was
dreading that the examiner was going to ask me to "park behind that Escort
(Siesta, Capri...)" because I wouldn't have had a clue which car he meant!
Moral: maybe you should just plead ignorance in these cases - strong as that
may sound.

2)"The blues is something that you graduate from (i.e. the first rung on the
ladder before you progress to `better', more complicated styles of music").

Well, you just happen to be dealing with someone who was listening to Genesis,
Pink Floyd, King Crimson, Brand X, Argent, Camel, Van der Graaf Generator and
co. 15 years ago, only to come to the conclusion that there was a lot more (for
me anyway) to be found in Howlin' Wolf, Sam Cooke and Nine Below Zero. I still
listen to those other artists (I listen to practically *everything*), but if I
could only have one type of music on my desert island canned music system, it
would be blues/R&B!

As far as the playing aspect is concerned, due to lack of time I shall just 
refer you once again to .87.

3)"Blues/R&B enthusiasts are always taking pot shots at other types of music".

Sorry, this sounds like a classic case of "the kettle calling the pot black"! 
Maybe things are fundamentally different in the UK (after all, the blues is
traditional American music), but I have NEVER come across *one* blues fan with 
this mentality. No. not even ONE!

In fact, there is often a common bond that unites blues/R&B, reggae/ska and
punk/new wave enthusiasts against the snobbery of the heavy metal and
progressive brigades (not that *everyone* falls into these camps!). About
twelve years ago, I remember a guitar-playing friend of mine saying that his
favorite guitarists were B.B. King and the Edge. It seemed ridiculous to me at
the time, but I've since realised that it's perfectly normal to find a large
amount of  black music in the record collections of new wave fans!

Alexis Korner, the great blues musician/DJ who practically introduced the blues
to Britain (and helped form the Rolling Stones), was generally thought to have
*the* most catholic music on the planet. A blues fan first and foremost, he
listened to everything, played everything and loved everything. His Sunday
evening show - yes, the esteemed BBC gave him a whole hour on Sunday evenings
;-) - featured just about everything from the Golden Gate Quartet to John
Coltrane to Bukka White to Prince Buster. 

Contrast that with these 90s heavy metal DJs who can't even find a space for 
Led Zeppelin and Free on their programmes...fear of being accused of veering
towards MOR, no doubt ;-)

Cheers!
 Dom

P.S. Ron in .88 asked about the author of "Fanny Mae". I believe the guy's name
was Buster Brown. He was a singer/harp player who died a few years ago. "Fanny
Mae" was probably the only thing of note that he recorded. In addition to Steve
Miller, there's also a version by Southside Johnny and the Asbury Jukes (and
plenty of others, I'm sure).

>    Irony abounds, as Tom D. pointed out to me yesterday. While my feelings
>    about the blues are pretty obvious (p-tui!), if you asked me what song
>    I'd choose to live thru eternity with it would be...
>                         "DEACON BLUES"
>    
>    Go figure!
>    
>    Edd

Personally, I think forcing Edd to live through eternity with that tune
would be adequate punnishment for starting this note.

Now, anyone wanna discuss whether white boys can really play the blooz??

:+)   Jim

>Now, anyone wanna discuss whether white boys can really play the blooz??
    
    This one can't.
    
    gh

    
    Well, ya know, there might just be the one 'classic' blues tune that's
    been done over and over again and keeps popping up chameleon-like in
    all manner of 'different' songs, but it's a *good* tune . . .
    
    	And there *are* blues that are unique ( ie: different from the 12
    chord basic blues ) . .
    
    	Re : LayMe . . .
    
    	Brad, are you going to have the dancers in bullet bras?  *I'm* not
    volunteering, but maybe we could convince Steve to loan us some spare
    daughters? ;-) ;-) ;-)
    			
    					Smilin' Jim

    About this "outgrowing" stuff.  It seems like it goes both ways.
    ("outgrew the blues" vs. "outgrew something else and came to the
    blues").
    
    I certainly (and not surprisingly) am in the "outgrew the blues"
    category.   As I've mentioned, I used to play a lot of it.  In fact
    my only contribution to a GUITAR notes tape is a blues tune!
    
    However, at some point I just felt like there was more to life than
    one scale, one basic chord progression and one general lyrical theme
    (how hard life can be, how my woman done me wrong, etc.)
    
    People in here have cited it as a "challenge" to make something
    interesting with those limitations.  I just can not for the life
    of me understand that.  To me it's like saying "challenge yourself
    to write the perfect spy novel only using the letters a,b,c,d and e."
    Why limit yourself?  Isn't it hard enough to write good music and
    lyrics without limiting yourself to a minute subset of the
    possibilities?
    
    Now on the "one song" issue.  I think Dom has hit the nail ON THE HEAD!
    
    > Some people rave about California custom styling, mag wheels, etc. I
    > don't even notice (Chuck Berry certainly didn't write all those
    > automobile songs for me!) To me they're just four-wheeled vehicles and
    > the rest is superfluous - if I want to remember what car someone
    > drives, it had better be an unusual colour! 
    
    The bluesers have dismissed my "one song" and "Madonna" analogy without
    realizing the point behind it which I tried to explain (not as well
    as Dom) in .130:
    
    			IMPORTANT POINT
    
    	If you are not a heavy metal shredder fan, all the differences
    	between those heavy metal shredders escapes you and you say
    	"they all sound the same".
    
    	If you are not a blues fan, all the differences between those
    	blues songs escapes you and you say "they all sound the same".
    
    The point behind the Madonna example is that it is that to a
    non-blueser, it is no more far-fetched to say that one "done me wrong"
    12-bar blues song is NOT a direct cop of the thousands of other "done me
    wrong" 12-bar blues songs than it is to say that "LayMe" is not a
    direct cop of "Layla".
    
    "LayMe" is clearly following the pattern of "Layla", but the latest
    "done me wrong" 12-bar blues song is clearly following the pattern of
    all that have come before.
    
    Those of you who can NOT see the blues from any perspective but your
    own will never see this unfortunately.
    
    But I want to point out that my goal isn't to convince you that "all
    the blues is the same" and it never really was.  My goal was to
    convince you that that's what people with NARROW perspectives say about
    genres that they don't appreciate and that it applies EQUALLY to the
    blues.
    
    One more thing, it would be inaccurate to say "I disagree" that
    bluesers/R&B'ers don't dismiss technical guitar playing music.  It
    would be more accurate to say that "I totally dismiss it".  There are
    just too many examples in here.  Dom, you MUST next unseen over a lot
    in here.
    
    	db

re: .129

>    However, what we (Greg and I) are saying is that there is a strong
>    correlation between appreciating the blues and putting down technical
>    playing.
    
Hey, I was putting down technical playing *long* before I got into blues! :-)
Actually, I don't dislike "technical" players per se, there are some that
I really like.  But I don't like them *because* they're "technical", but
because they have something to say.

>      You 
>    generally don't find heavy-metalurgists and prog-rockers putting down 
>    the blues.  

Maybe not, but you'll find them putting down country big-time.
    
>    This conference has been in existence for years.   We've been having
>    clashes over "speed is bad", "self-indulgence", "flash for flash sake",
>    "pompous" for as long as it's been in existence.  This largely comes
>    from R&B and blues types.
    
I really question whether it has largely come from "R&B and blues types".

>    There's a pompous attitude that seems to (often) accompany blues/R&B
>    appreciation that these other forms of music are bad or (another
>    one) reflect "immaturity" and etc.
    
I'm sorry, but from my experience there are bigots in *all* camps.
I *do* agree with you that such bigotry is bad.  

    >One more thing, it would be inaccurate to say "I disagree" that
    >bluesers/R&B'ers don't dismiss technical guitar playing music.  It
    >would be more accurate to say that "I totally dismiss it".  There are
    >just too many examples in here.  Dom, you MUST next unseen over a lot
    >in here.
    
    That's unfortunate, but true (due to time constraints). However, I tend
    to NEXT UNSEEN the equipment/GTS-oriented notes - I rarely miss
    anything of importance in the discussion/guitar technique notes. And
    there have been numerous examples of "blues slagging" ("Buddy Guy can
    only play in the minor pentatonic", etc.). Not that it offends me, any
    more than I'm offended by someone who doesn't like Slimline Salad
    Dressing.
    
    No, I prefer to stick to my theory (for want of anything better) of a
    few notes back, i.e. there may be some sort of snobbery attached to the
    blues in the U.S. which is absent in Britain. Incidentally, I don't
    think I've ever said that I thought all heavy metal was the same - i
    don't particularly think so, as it happens. I may have implied that I
    didn't like most of what I've heard (quite true!), but I'm not blind to
    the attraction it holds for some people.
    
    Dom (who can get a kick out of most genres, with the exception of
    opera, much heavy metal and the more "sugary" C&W!)
    

>>      You 
>>    generally don't find heavy-metalurgists and prog-rockers putting down 
>>    the blues.  
>
>Maybe not, but you'll find them putting down country big-time.
    
    Just about everyone (except the country fans) puts down country, dude. 
    Has little to do with metalheads... 
    
    gh

re: .144

>    Just about everyone (except the country fans) puts down country, dude. 
>    Has little to do with metalheads... 
    
You're missing my point (guess I didn't make it very well).
What I'm saying is that practically *everybody* slags something,
and it's *all* bad.  I'm not saying I'm never guilty, either, 
although I strive to be fair and non-judgemental.

I'm going to avoid the temptation to start a country music rathole
here, since I'm not confident that I'd get sufficient support. :-)

-Hal

    To change the subject, or at least the direction of the subject, has
    anyone got any more jazz blues sequences like Danny's in .99? If you
    have, would you post them? Is there a method of developing blues
    sequences with more than three chords? They are great for playing the
    bass with.
    
    Here's one to start.
    
    
    ////  //// //// //  //
    A7    D7   A7   Em7 A7
    ////  //// //// //          //
    D7    D7   A7   C#half dim  F#7+9
    ////  //// //   //   //   //
    Bm7   E7   C#m7 F#7  Bm7  E7
    
    
    Regards
    
    John
    

    >Some like it, some don't.......end of any meaningful discussion;
    >beyond that is like debating religion or politics.
    
    

    Oops, sorry John.  I also wanted to re-direct the discussion somewhat,
    although in a different way.  I'd also be interested in seeing posts
    of jazz blues changes.
    
    But back to philosophy (the real sticky stuff, eh :-), two items that
    hopefully have more to do with *GUITAR* notes than the recent thread.
    
    First, I understand how people can go sour on the blues.  Fact is, as
    a player you can get up to speed fairly quickly on a few chord sequences
    and standard licks and scales and sound pretty much like you know what
    you're doing.  As a result, there is a lot of repetitive, hackneyed,
    boring blues playing out there even at the professional level.  There
    is a good analogy to bass playing.  On bass, there's a very quick
    initial learning curve, and it's possible to sound like you know what
    your doing and even play professionally with very little talent or
    skill (case in point :-).  But it's at least as hard, if not harder,
    to really "say something" on the bass or similarly with the blues.
    The fact that the field is overrun with hackers does not diminish
    it's true merit, in either case.
    
    Second, (and I'm sure this point has been made previously but I'll
    re-iterate) these "simpler" (if you will) aspects of the blues are one
    of it's real advantages and appealing aspects for players.  Take the
    recent Stormy Monday's jam.  No one in that room had any illusions about
    us furthering the boundaries of Western music, and in many cases things
    didn't even jell.  But there were moments during the jam when real
    magic happened, when it was more than just the sum of it's parts, when
    we felt ourselves a part of something with a life of it's own, when real
    *MUSIC* was being created right there before our eyes; and this by people
    who had never played together and in many cases never even met before!
    Playing the blues, in all it's glorious simplicity, affords opportunities
    for things like this to happen, moreso than any form I can think of.  And
    this type of magic is exactly what music is all about for me and the thing
    that keeps me listening and playing.
    
    /rick

    Hot shot puff head says: "I can play those simple SRV blooz lix...they're
    easy"
    
    Old fart says:"yeah, bud, but can you make 'em *sound* like SRV?"

    I just listened to the first 6 tracks of the new Robert Cray album and
    these are 6 completely different tunes. Completely. I think only one
    qualifies as a 12-bar progression and that's an Albert King tune. I've
    never before listened closely for differences before, as I've never been
    so conscious of any "there's really only one blues song" phenomenon. As
    I listened and noticed no similarity between these tracks (outside of
    the fact that they're all sung by Mr. Cray), this notion seemed more and
    more ridiculous.

    re: .148
    
>    On bass, there's a very quick
>    initial learning curve, and it's possible to sound like you know what
>    your doing and even play professionally with very little talent or
>    skill (case in point :-).
    
    Hey Rick, did we go to the same music school?  %^)
    
>    Take the recent Stormy Monday's jam.
    [...]
>    But there were moments during the jam when real
>    magic happened, when it was more than just the sum of it's parts, when
>    we felt ourselves a part of something with a life of it's own, when real
>    *MUSIC* was being created right there before our eyes; and this by people
>    who had never played together and in many cases never even met before!
    
    What he said!  Even db had me fooled into thinking he was playing
    music!  %^)
    
    Dave

    I have only one Robert Cray album, the next to most recent, I think.  I
    don't think there is *one* standard I IV V progression on it; and it's
    ALL blues!
    
    

    RE: db
    
    	Many people in this conference know, or know of "db" (Dave
    Blickstein). I have had the pleasure of knowing Dave for only
    4 years and during that time I've known him to enjoy (as many of 
    you have also shown) a good "debate". The problem with debates within
    either E-Mail, or any notesfile is that what the author meant doesn't
    mean you're going to "read it" the way it was intended originally. We
    ALL know this is true because I'm sure it's all happened to us at one 
    point or another (or it probably will at some time in the future). What
    I find cRaZy here is that Dave *does* like blues! He has many (and I
    mean MANY) blues, and R&B CD's, records AND tapes that prove it.
    Yesterday, he gave me back a SRV video of mine that's he wore out for
    the past 3 weeks (thank you Dave  :^(   ). Dave's the one that got
    me hooked on the new Gary Moore stuff! Sure, he likes his progressive 
    stuff too...   like that's going to keep me from being in a band with him? 
    What are you nuts? Thing is, if you gather all this other musical 
    information and apply it to a totally different form of music then it's 
    played with a slightly different twist to it. Is this bad? Not in my book! 
    I can tell you that he's NOT a big Clapton fan...  OK I am...  and many
    people have come up to me and have asked me, "what the heck are you
    doing in a band where the keyboard player doesn't like Clapton"?? My
    answer is simple, Clapton is only 1 artist of thousands. Yeah, I'll
    slip one in every now and then, but Dave doesn't balk about it...  
    much.  ;^) 
    	Dave started tongue in cheek regarding this specific note and then 
    it seems like he offended some people along the way. I know Dave well 
    enough to know that was NOT his intention...  it just may have been 
    interpreted that way. To some folks in this notefile, he ticked off, 
    others agreed with his views. The same goes for mine ie; Tom Derochers 
    basically said to me in a reply to my opinion; "who the heck are you 
    Abatelli, eat dirt and bark at the moon". I thought OK...  your opinion 
    Tom and I dropped it. No big deal in my book (I didn't lose *any* sleep
    over it). 
    	Dave's a good dude and because he seemed to kick the hornet's nest 
    alittle, I'll make sure that he plays 5 blues tunes in a row at our next 
    gig! Wha? Not tough enough on him? OK...  *10* blues tunes in a row for 
    you Dave and oh...  BTW, sustaining notes on a keyboard does NOT count 
    because there's no emotion in doing that! I'll be listening Dave, so no 
    cheating. Oh yeah, one more thing! For those of you who were at Stormy
    Monday in Merrimack, NH a few weeks ago when the Steve Dandrea was there, 
    saw db play (in my opinion) some killer keyboard solos!!! db was jumpin' 
    around swaying the keyboards back and forth...  yeah, he wasn't having too
    much fun was he? Think about it, if he didn't like that type of music,
    he would have left the keyboard home. I know he would have!
    
    			Your honor, I rest my case!
    
    	Vice President of the "Dave Blickstein Fan Club",
    						         Fred
    
    
    P.S. Yo Dave, any new "progressive" tunes you want to do? I have a few
         blues tunes I'd like to do, but darn...  they're *not* I-IV-V. Gee,
         is that like "progressive blues"???? Cool!!!!  I'm there!!!!!!!!!!
    

    OK, Fred, but it was my main man Edd that started all this nonsense, so
    getting db off the hook doesn't excuse the real culprit....8^)
    
    							Brian
    
    P.S. I've always thought that in "I Am The Walrus", Lennon actually
    sings "I am the EDD man, you are the EDD man..."

    Thanks Fred,
    
    What I want people to know is the notes I wrote attacking the blues
    were written to demonstrate that the arguments being used by bluesers
    to attack the OTHER kinds of music I like apply quite well to the
    blues (which I also like).
    
    So my intent was not really to attack the blues because anyone who
    knows me well, knows that I hate intolerance in any form (race, art,
    music, religion, etc.) but to demonstrate the "glass house property" of
    these "shredding is ____" and "___ all sounds alike" arguments.
    
    In short, my intent was to hoist people by their own petard.
    
    I have not told any lies here, but I have made "devil's advocate"
    arguments to prove a point.  
    
    I do like the blues, I do not really think it all sounds alike.  All music
    that falls into a particular genre has similarities because its those
    similarities DEFINE the genre.
    
    When you gain an appreciation for the genre, you are able to appreciate
    the subtle difference between examples within the genre.
    
    However, UNTIL you can appreciate the genre, there is no sense in your
    saying "it all sounds alike" or its "limiting" because you can't even
    see the dials that you are allowed to turn within the genre.
    
    	db

    This is great! I set off the bomb and db takes the heat! :^)
    
    ...and for the record, I really don't look down on da blooz, although
    I can't think of a genre I'd really prefer to be involved with less.
    Well, maybe "classic rock", but I'll blow that mine off sometime later
    when the dust settles...
    
    I love a notes rumble, especially when it's about a subject I'm pretty
    invloved with. Like someone else said, it gives me a chance to have
    some opinions blasted in my face, and a chance to look at some of my 
    own. The world would be boring if we all val-diff'd on everything.
    
    Edd

    > This is great! I set off the bomb and db takes the heat! :^)
    
    Edd, you've known me enough years to know that I being in the middle
    of the "heat".   I certainly fanned the match that you tossed. ;-)
    
    I've enjoyed this a lot, I just don't want people to come out of it
    with a) any anger and b) thinking that I put down ANY kind of music.
    
    	db

    Aw, youz guyz is bein so nicey nicey now, I think I'm gonna need an
    insulin shot :-)
    
    I hope nobody takes what goes on in here TOO seriously
    
    /rick

    >>I hope nobody takes what goes on in here TOO seriously
    
    I only get riled when you guys go jammin' WITHOUT the dawg!
    
    8)
    
    (and when Buck sez Clapton sux!)
    
    8)  8)

    
    Wow.  Does this feel like a Brady Bunch episode to anyone else?  Every
    body's all happy and all problems solved within 30 minutes ( well, 160
    notes, anyways :-) ) . . .
    
    	For what it's worth, I'll throw in my dose of saccharin too :-) -
    yes, db is quite a debater and obviously enjoys stirring up a hornet's
    nest or too, but all in good fun ( I *think* :-) ) - check out the
    scalping note in MUSIC.
    
    				All in good fun,
    
    						Jimbo
    
    ps : all C/W, Acid Jazz, Heavy Metal, Blues and New Age sounds the same!
    ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
    

    Hey everybody... group hug... group hug...
    
    ;-)

    ILIW the DAWG sez Clapton sux for me in notes!  ;')

    I love you, db!
    
    Edd

    So is db really just kidding about the scalping issue too?  Does Edd
    really want to tour with Buddy Guy?  Does Rick Calcagni only like
    Concussion Ensemble because the guitar player uses a Firebird?  Did
    Fred Abatelli play uncredited on "Tales of Topgraphic Oceans"?

>    I love you, db!
    
    Edd, you are a wonderful and special person.
    
    	db

    Stop it!  You guys are makin me sick to my stomach!
    
    gh

    re: House
    
>    Stop it!  You guys are makin me sick to my stomach!
    
    A thousand pardons Greg.  I'm sure I speak for my dear friend Edd
    when I say that we both hold you in the highest regard as a valued
    and knowledgable contributor to this wonderful conference, and that
    we are deeply disturbed at even the thought of distressing you.
    
    Isn't that right Edd?
    
    	db

    
    Absolutely, Brother DB. 
    
    Warm hugs to you Greg!!!
    
    Edd

    I knew you would Edd, because that's JUST the kind of terrific person
    that you are.
    
    I hope that every single one of you, be you bluesers, shredder,
    tasteful, emotionless, self-indulgent or whatever has an absolutely
    delightful weekend.
    
    Cordially,
    
    	   db

    
    Excuse me.
    
    	Bllleeeccchhhhhhhh!! :-)
    
    				Jim, the discontented one ;-)
    

    I just feel so GOOD about this whole subject now. It really helps
    when you folks can validate my feelings with your supportive replies.
    
    > delightfull weekend
    
    Thanks so much. In the immortal words of Becker and Fagen, I'll be
    "On the water down in New Orleans" eating "red beans and rice for
    a quarter..."
    
    Edd (really headed for "Nawlins" in the AM...)

    
    	And I'll be on a beach in Cozumel in 26.5 hours...
    
    	Fiesta!!!  Yes, girls!!!  Ole' Ole', Ole' Ole'
    
    	Me mine on fire, me soul on fire - feelin' hot, hot, hot!
    
    

    > I just feel so GOOD about this whole subject now. It really helps
    > when you folks can validate my feelings with your supportive replies.
    
    I agree.  Things go so much better when we just all get our feelings
    out in the open.
    
    I think we've all grown tremendously as people from this experience.
    
    	db
    
    p.s. Edd, you can keep the copy of "Men Who Love Too Much" I loaned
    	 you - I'm still reading "Men Who Play Too Fast".

    
 >    p.s. Edd, you can keep the copy of "Men Who Love Too Much" I loaned
 >    	 you - I'm still reading "Men Who Play Too Fast".
    
    Hmmm, no wonder I've been so frustrated lately. I thought I was reading
    "Men Who Love Too Fast"...
    
    Kisses!
    
    Edd

    
    	Oh, almost forgot.  I'll miss you all terribly...
    
    

    
    Let us all join our "electronic hands" and feel the power we can
    gain and share with each other...
    
    Edd
    

    Gak...

    Unbelievable.
    
    	Can't you just feel the powers of love and wellness just *flowing*
    through the electronic net?  The fundamental goodness that's oozing
    from our veins directly into our terminals, mingling with everyone's
    until it's more than the sum of it's parts, then coursing back to each
    individual user, making him or her a much more pleasant human?  Gads, I
    hope everyone's HIV-negative! ;-)
    
    	Everyone give themselves a great ol' big pat on the back for just
    being the wonderful, efflusive, talented people that you are!  There,
    there, don't we all feel much better - much more *complete* - now?  
    
    	Now, about that Barney Memorial Statue Fund we talked abou . .
    Hey!  Where's everybody going?!??!
    
    
    			Peace, Love, Understanding and Pat Boone,
    
    					Jim	

>    	Can't you just feel the powers of love and wellness just *flowing*
>    through the electronic net? 
    
    I feel something flowing...and hear the subsequent plops.

    It's *OK* for you to feel that way, Greg. We're here for you.
    
    Hugs,
    
    Edd

    Greg my brother,
    
    
    I just want you to know that if starts really getting you down, and 
    you EVER need a sympathetic ear, someone to talk to about this, or 
    even just a shoulder to cry on...
    
    
    
    
    		CALL EDD!
    
    
    ;-)
    
    Love and quiches,
    
    	db

    Ok, ok, I'm converted.  After reading the past two replies, I was
    filled with a feeling of warmth and love for humanity, and a special
    feeling of family.
    
    Let's all join hands and note in peace!
    
    Greg

You guys are killing me!  I was laughing so hard my son thought I was choking 
and came to see if I needed help.

Bob

    183 replies into this note,, and I just saw it...
    
    well there ya go . take a few days, away from notes, come back,
    and what happens... Cote write's a note that I should have smelt
    days ago.....
    
    Now guys, realize this entry comes from a guy who not two years
    ago, was seen on stage in Northboro, playing a Bass (no less)
    to Roll Over Bethoven...  I was there, he can't lie, and I
    have witness to the fact that he even had fun..  don't let him kid
    ya crew,,,,  he's jess trying to raise some noise!
    
    Getting back to his topic though, and to join the rumble...
    
    blues is like eating lobster,  most people love it, but there's always
    a few.....  personally, I'm not a big lobster fan myself, but
    the blues..  I'z always be diggin da blues.
    
    There's just something about it it, I dunno,, I mean if you were to
    ever listen to one of the classics,, like B.B. King's, The Thrill is
    Gone...  and it doesn't grab ya, then it aint for you.

    Hey, Mustaine gives lessons to Clapton!!!
    
    !!
    ;-)

    re: 184
    
    Tourists to Boston constantly suffer through the tale of how, way
    back when, Boston prison inmates were fed nothing but lobster (I
    guess it was cheap). Apparently it was the cause of a prison revolt.
    
    jim who_likes_the_blues_and_lobster

    
    Well, this past weekend was the House of Blues 'extravaganza' :-)
    
    	The Bluesmobile showed up at 6:00 sharp to pick up the four of us (
    we hadn't donned the white socks, cheap sunglasses, etc - thought it
    would be a *bit* tacky ;-) )  I found out that the car was one of the
    original fleet of 15 used in the movie ( they demolished *12* of those)
    - I'm pretty sure the CD player was added after, though :-)
    
    	After an . . . interesting . . drive ( the speedometer topped 110
    at one point, and the driver was *obviously* familiar with the Mass
    rules of driving ) we arrived and were ushered in to the bar, wait a bit
    for our table while drinking some of the more unusual brands of beer
    availble ( Blackened Voodoo Lager, Turbo Dog, Bohemia ), ate a truly
    disgusting amount of food ( although I was surprised and disappointed
    when i couldn't get two dry white slices of toast or a whole chicken )
    
    	The entertainment was 'Monster' Mike Welch, the 14 year old blues
    wonder - looked like just another chubby little kid, but the boy could
    play - *and* sing, I was surprised - he has the voice down.  Sounds
    kind of like what BB King would sound like if he were a fat 14 year old
    white kid :-)
    
    	Definitely a good time - I'm gonna have to check out the New
    Orleans House o' Blues, which should be open when I jaunt down for
    Mardi Gras . . .
    
    						Ciao,
    
    							Jimbo

>    	The entertainment was 'Monster' Mike Welch, the 14 year old blues
>    wonder - looked like just another chubby little kid, but the boy could
>    play - *and* sing, I was surprised - he has the voice down.  Sounds
>    kind of like what BB King would sound like if he were a fat 14 year old
>    white kid :-)
    
    I've jammed with this kid at Johnnie D's (what!!! db at a Blues jam???)
    
    I agree, he's got good chops and a real feel for the music, but he
    struck me as a SRV wanna-be and I think he's going to need to develop
    his own voice if he wants to get anywhere with this.
    
    	db

    I missed the group hug last week, but I wasn't pissed off anyway, so
    nothing lost.....everybody feel better now?
    
    P.S. Blooz is boring and repetitive, and I NEVER, EVER play it.
    
    Dawg (having his Brother in law sequence a backing tape so I can submit
    my version of 'Key to the Hiway' in Volume VI)

re: .188

>>    	The entertainment was 'Monster' Mike Welch, the 14 year old blues
>>    wonder - looked like just another chubby little kid, but the boy could
>>    play - *and* sing, I was surprised - he has the voice down.  Sounds
>>    kind of like what BB King would sound like if he were a fat 14 year old
>>    white kid :-)
>    
>    I've jammed with this kid at Johnnie D's (what!!! db at a Blues jam???)
>    
>    I agree, he's got good chops and a real feel for the music, but he
>    struck me as a SRV wanna-be and I think he's going to need to develop
>    his own voice if he wants to get anywhere with this.
    
Heck, he's only 14.  Kind of early to expect him to find his own voice
if you ask me.

Actually, I sometimes wonder if being labelled as a child prodigy might
even hinder development, what with all of the praise, etc., going to the
kid's head.

-Hal

>    blues is like eating lobster,  most people love it, but there's always
>    a few..... 
    
    I love the taste of lobster, but it always gives me the trots.

    
    It just wanted to say that "Pull Me Under" is the best damn tune ever
    written -- period!!!

    > John Petrucci pisses on Ronnie Earl! 
    
    > It just wanted to say that "Pull Me Under" is the best damn tune ever
    >  written -- period!!!
    
    I just wanted to say that I totally disagree with this!
    
    
    
    "Take the Time" is the best damn song ever written and Petrucci never
    pissed on Ronnie Earl, he farted in Clapton's general direction.
    
    Buck, you should know these things!!!
    
    	db

    zzzzz ... Dream Theater ... I forced myself to listen to this 
    all the way through a couple times to find the value added ...
    a bunch of Berkely wankers showing off their chops. Perfect
    for 15 year old geeks to aspire to.

    with all the bodily functions mentioned earlier, I'm not sure I'd even
    want it in my tape deck

    You sir, are a blas-fee-mer!!  ;-)
    
    Dream Theater is the best damn band in the world, and they don't
    even acknowledge bodily functions.  Value added indeed!  Dood, you've
    been with DEC too long.  ;-)

    sorry dude, that's how I feel, now get outta here!
    
    I really did listen to the Dream THeater tape that everyone
    was raving about, a number of times. It just leaves me cold.
    Too much of everything. The singer sounds like Michael Bolton
    with a bad attitude, gratuitously over-emoting every syllable.
    The music is your typical 'let's change the time signature for
    a few bars to show off how well we can do stuff like that, then
    play a couple real fast scales' progressive metal wanking. Can't
    see the musical forest for the chops trees.

    >The music is your typical 'let's change the time signature for
    >a few bars to show off how well we can do stuff like that, then
    >play a couple real fast scales' progressive metal wanking. Can't
    >see the musical forest for the chops trees.
    
    This is such a cop out I so often see from "the Blues" crowd.  In
    fact, it's the whole essence of that "progressive music is crap"
    note elsewhere in this conference.
    
    Try transcribing a DT tune sometime ... you'll see it's not just 'a few
    bars of odd time signatures' ... For instance, "Ones who help to set
    the Sun" off their 1st album has the keyboardist playing in 6/8, the
    guitar and bass in 7/4, and the drums in 7/8.  I give them credit for
    crafting their music in this cool aray of polyrhythms ... not to
    mention when the "A" section is revisited, the groove is turned around.
    
    My verdict is "well crafted music", yours, "progressive wanking".  I
    just see the latter comments as a musical cop-out.
    
    

    :-)

    While I like some of the music that gets labeled as "progressive", I
    don't care for Dream Theater.  Their stuff sounds stiff and boring to
    me.  It's too perfect, doesn't express any emotion or anything and the
    melodies don't catch my ear.
    
    Oh yeah, since this is "da blooz" note...  The blues suck too.
    
    Greg

I'm having a deja vu all over again.

    		Blues band seeks guitar player
    
    You must be able to play I-IV-V in both keys and in both time
    signatures.  We hope to eventually increase our expressive range by
    starting some tunes "on the V" but that is not an immediate
    requirement.
    
    You also must be able to play the same tune over and over, night after
    night like you really mean it.
    
    A general attitude that "life is hard" is a definite plus.
    
    You should also have bad experience with lyin', cheatin' women.
    
    Self indulgent multi-note guitar solos are not welcome in this band.
    
    Oh by the way, we only do "originals".
    
    	db

    so buck, you take wine with your communion ???
    
    I say we toss this note, and go bash Rap,,  I'd say were due
    for some Rap Bashing....
    
    

    re: -1
    
    why bash rap when we can say stuff like....
    
    DREAM THEATRE SUCKS!!!!
    
    8)

    Wanted: Guitarist for Progressive Rock Band with no gigs but a desire
    to create complicated music with lots of time changes that no one can
    dance to, or even tap time to with your beer bottle on the bar....
    
    * must worship Dream Theatre and be able to explain why in no less than
    500 words....
    
    * defense of Dream Theatre *must* include slams of well known blues
    guitarists that sell millions of recordings of meaningless I IV V
    dribble.....
    
    * must have a guitar with a spear shaped headstock and a whammy bar
    so complicated the axe cannot be tuned without access to a 5 drawer 
    Craftsman tool chest on rollers....
    
    * must be a team player....as long as everybody on the team realizes
    it's *your* team....
    
    * must be able to shred....or at least convince people you're
    shredding.....the music will be so complex and loud, no one will really
    notice if you hit more than half the notes you think you hit....
    
    * posing is not required....this is not heavy or pop metal....we hate
    those guys to.....
    
    * serious inquiries only, apply in person, but leave your roadie crew
    at home.....
    
    Call 1-800-ERI-CSUX, ask for Progressive Bulldawg
    
    8) 8) 8+} :*) %^} and so on....

    
>>    * must be a team player....as long as everybody on the team realizes
>>    it's *your* team....
    
    
    	Major Ha-Ha's :-) :-) :-)   good one . . .
    
    						Jim
    

>    * must worship Dream Theatre and be able to explain why in no less than
>    500 words....
    
    No fair, I can't explain ANYTHING in less than 500 words!
    
    ;-()
    
    	db

   >> No fair, I can't explain ANYTHING in less than 500 words!
    
    Dave it says "NO less than 500 words".....dude, you qualify!
    
    :*)

    They wouldn't want me anyway  because I admit to (occasionally) being
    into doing the blues.
    
    Blues limits my expression cause I can't play as many notes as I'd
    like to.
    
    	db

    That's funny, Johnny Winter never had that problem
    

    > That's funny, Johnny Winter never had that problem
    
    Funny you should say that, I've read several reviews that slammed
    him for playing too many notes.

    True, but it doesn't seem to bother him much does it.
    

    Johnny's got the right idea, play what you want and screw the
    detractors.  Obviously someone likes it enough to keep him in business
    all these years!
        
    Greg

    Does he fart in 7/8 time?

    >>Does he fart in 7/8 time?
    
    It's a progressive fart.....he farts in 7/8, 3/4, and 4/4 all in the
    same fart, and in different fart keys as well; there's the
    flutterblast, the freep, the SBD, and of course the Armageddon Fart.
    
    
    pherrrrt!

    jeez, I thought this was going downhill LAST week! :-)

    >>jeez, I thought this was going downhill LAST week! :-)
    
    
    just when you thought it was safe to back into notes.......
    
    :}

Goldilocks listened to the first guitarist, who shredded her very heart out on
the fretboard, and said:

	"Oh no, that's way too many notes."

Then Goldilocks listened to the second guitarist, who laid bare his soul with
the bluest of blues riffs, and said:

	"Oh no, that's nowhere near enough notes."

Then Goldilocks listened to the "Classic Soft Rock" guitarist, who carefully
played something which would offend absolutely *noone* (OK, maybe just db), and
said:

	"Ahh, that's _just_ right. Should fit my station's demographics to a T!"


Bob (who self-indulgently plays whatever feels right at the time...)

re: .220

   Like the Energizer Bunny, eh?  He just keeps going, and going, and going...

re: .221

   Shouldn't that be "GoldiLicks"?

   -- Sam
   

>   -< repetition does not increase humor >-
    
    First, I did not "repeat" this.  Some blueser was offended that I put it in the
    "For Sale/Wanted" note so the moderator moved it here which is why you
    saw it twice.  I had nothing to do with it - I thought it was fine
    where it was.  ;-)
    
>   Like the Energizer Bunny, eh?  He just keeps going, and going, and going...
    
    Fourth, this is particularly ironic coming at the tale end of
    about 25 notes blasting progressive rock here in the the Blues note.
    
    Although the "Blast Progressive" note has been write-locked, I guess
    the compulsion that drives those folks simply can not be overcome
    and they had to vent here.
    
    Fifth, I have no problem with that - I'm enjoying this stuff - just don't 
    blame me for its continuance.  ;-)
    
    	db

    >>Some blueser was offended that......
    
    offended? Hell, I was gonna apply for the job!  You mean it was a joke?
    
    8(

    db,
    
    just heard the bad news......dbWilfred's drummer (Willie) is leaving
    the band for an all female polka band and Fred is leaving for a 5 piece
    group that plays only strip joints......
    
    Where can I apply for the openings?
    
    Steve (you shoulda never placed that ad, dude)
    
    

>    offended? Hell, I was gonna apply for the job!  You mean it was a joke?
    
    Sorry Dawg, we ruled you out.  We decided that you have to know how
    to start on the V.
    
    We decided the only way any of could get thru a whole night of playing
    the blues without boring ourselves to death was if we started with 
    a fifth
    
    
    
    
    	A fifth of JD!!!
    
    
    BYOB
    
    ;-)

>    Although the "Blast Progressive" note has been write-locked, I guess
>    the compulsion that drives those folks simply can not be overcome
>    and they had to vent here.
    
    FWIW, that note wasn't write-locked by the conference moderators.  Must
    have been Brian (the author of .0), 'cause nobody else is supposed to
    have the privileges to do that.
    
    Greg (co-moderator)

    re: -1
    
    a "who_done_it"!!

    no, he was afraid someone would say "all blues players fart the
    same way"

        Dave, although your note was humorous, and submitted with 
    tongue-in-cheek, it could have very easily triggered a barage 
    of replies *In the for-sale/wanted note*. It's bad enough we  
    have this endless peeing contest in this note, let's not corrupt 
    the for-sale note as well. I know the person that requested 
    your note be moved. Your right in that he is a big blues fan,
    but I think he was correct in stating that it did not belong 
    in the for-sale note. 
    
        I've been using NEXT UNSEEN a lot lately. In the immortal 
    words of Rodney King "Can't we all just get along". Let's face
    it guys, we can't all have the last word.
    
    	I wish you guys would re-read this note and realize just 
    how silly this whole argument is. Apparently, we haven't had
    enough arguing over the blues and progressive music, now we
    gotta slam *Rap* too. 229 replies !?!? What have we accomplished 
    here?
    
    	Mark 
        (promising, this is my first and last entry in this rat-hole)
    

>    	I wish you guys would re-read this note and realize just 
>    how silly this whole argument is. 
    
    Mark, I wish you'd re-read the latter parts of this note and realize
    that most of what has been written recently is INTENTIONALLY silly.
    
    Part of what I've been trying to demonstrate is:
    
    	o how overly sensitive people are to "their own" music, 
    	o how overly insensitive they can be to others music.  
    
    Seems like it would almost be reasonable to be one or the other, but to
    be both strikes me as (pardon the irony) "self-indulgent".
    
    	db
    
    p.s. I have no problem with moving that ad here
    
    p.p.s.  Guess who personally prompted Dawg to write the "progressive 
    	    rock guitarist wanted" counter to my "Blues guitarist wanted"
    	    ad?
    
    	    I'll give you a hint:
    
    
    
    
    			ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    ;-)
    

    It's really tough to read the "tongue-in-cheek-edness" of the written
    word sometimes.  I'm alot more comfortable with alot of the smart ass
    comments and slams I make in here 'cause I've been able to meet some of
    the noters and I believe they know that most of my replies in here are
    just a sick attempt at humor or a friendly jab at someone in
    particular.....someone I *know*, or at least have met.  The only real
    anger I've expressed as a result of this conference has been through
    e-mail right at the recipient.  Doesn't mean I was right, but I try to
    keep it outa here.  So here's my official disclaimer:
    
    If Steve D'Andrea makes any kind of public slam or insult or ridicule
    of anyone or anything in a notes conference, it will contain some kind
    of smiley face and.....
    
    I'm only KIDDING!  It's a JOKE!
    
    dawg 

    re: .233
    
    Don't hit us with any of your sarcastic BS, D'Andrea - we all know what
    a go-for-the-jugular kind of guy you really are!
    
    Hmph.
    
    Dave
    
    
    Just kidding, Steve, really!  Steve?

    Steve, put that baseball bad DOWN!

    re: last two.....
    
    That's it, both you *ssholes suck, and all the music and musicians you
    like suck! 
    
    There....now it's obvious I'm kidding and we're all great pals, isn't
    it?  I mean it's buried right between each syllable!
    
    
    :*}
    

    Hey Steve...
    
    Did I ever tell you I think Eric Clapton sux?!?
    
    
    
    8^)
    
    Buck, who had the Blues when while at his favorite watering hole last
    weekend, someone played the ENTIRE "umplugged" album on the CD jukebox!
    
    ps - I got my revenge, I played the entire Appetite for Destruction
    album!  ;')

    I gotta say ... I have commissioned a work from the infamous Rik
    Sawyer.  The piece will be called "Progressive Wankers".

    >>Did I ever tell you I think Eric Clapton sux?!?
    
    Never, I'm shocked!
    
    8*)

    >> Dream Theatre blows
    >  Eric Clapton sux
    
    Sounds like that would make for an excellent combination.  ;-)

    A regular LDUC(tm) and I'm neither involved nor did I initiate it.

    
    All I gotta say is that if this ends up in 'nuther group hug then I'm
    gonna throw up.

    What goes around comes around...
    
    Anyone notice I wasn't here last week? (Say "yes".) Apparently I
    offended the Gods Of Simple Music, as I spent last week in none other
    New Orleans, home of the ^$%# BLUES!!! Argh! Everywhere I went, blues,
    blues, more blues!! It was worse than being condemned to an eternity of
    Budweiser I tell ya!!!
    
    ...as I was walking thru the convention center one day, I notice all
    the men dresses in suits and ties, and I thought "The BLUES!!!" That's
    it!!! Not one of them has on the same suit, shirt or ties, but damn it,
    they all look identical!!!
    
    Edd

    >Let's be progressive...  this time we'll have a group fart instead!
    8^)

    re: .244
    
    We noticed, Edd - we razzed you and you didn't respond.
    
    And condemned to the blues?  Couldn't happen to a nicer guy!  %^)
    
    Dave

    The most bizarre thing was the proliferation of MIDI blues clubs. Just
    one guy, a drum machine, and an unstable clock pulse for that authentic
    "feel"...
    
    Edd

    Well Edd, it could've been worse.
    
    I was worried that you'd come back with a new name beginning with
    "Blind", writing I-IV-Vers about how bad your "woman done bin'", etc.
    
    And we were worried you might come back talking about a deal you made
    with some guy with horns, although apparently even the devil can't
    grant anyone enough talent to play/write like Emerson, Morse,
    Holdsworth, etc. so I guess that's why all his deals are limited to
    turning folks into incredible blues players.  
    
    I mean, ya never hear about him turning someone into a shredder,
    prog-rocker, classicist, jazzer, rapper, etc do ya?
    
    It's such a waste that people go so far as to sell their souls to
    become great blues players when a few $30 instructional video tapes by
    Arlen Roth would've accomplished the same thing.
    
    ;-)

    Maybe Arlen Roth IS the devil!
    
    :-)

    Wait, didn't we determine that that Paganini, the original
    sold-my-soul-for-chops guy, was a shredder in his time?
    
    Dave

    and didn't Steve Vai play the part of the evil_sold_his_soul_shredder
    in "Crossroads"....only to be defeated in cuttin' heads at the end by
    The Karate Kid faking classical music lix on a Tele?  Sheesh, now that
    I think about it, the movie was about Ralph Machio wantin' to be a
    bloozman, but it's ending climax is totally void of any I IV V
    stuff....go figger!
    
    :*}

    That Steve Vai stuff was fackin' amazing tho...  Isshhhh.
    
    jc

    >>That Steve Vai stuff was fackin' amazing tho...  Isshhhh.
    
    Not only was Vai incredible, the muscial score behind him was PERFECT
    for the scene.....it *was* demonic music!
    
    eeek!

    
    	I liked the "Crossroads" movie alot, but that whole ending with
    the classical guitar bit really flew in the face of the rest of the
    film... it basically said "The blues isn't good enough, you gotta
    shred on some classical stuff". 
    
    	Why, that's basically blasphemy to us "Bloozers"!
    
    	Are we sure db didn't write that script?
    
    
    
    	Steve Vai was awesome in that duel. But the thing that impressed me
    most was how well the slide guitar shredding held up against Vai's
    shredding. Arlen Roth played the slide parts, didn't he? 
    
    	At the time that movie came out, I was feeling a little discouraged
    about playing; the Vai/Yngwie/Satriani/et al style of shredding was all 
    the rage then-- I used to work in the record store then and that was
    what all the guitar listeners were talking about. I was beginning to 
    feel that my more blusey style of playing didn't have a place anymore.
    
    	Then when I saw that film and heard a blues slide guitar keeping
    up with a true shred-master, I felt... validated again. 
    
    	Of course, in the years after that, Stevie Ray released his best
    work, Clapton got real big again, and bands like the Black Crowes, 
    Spin Doctors, Pearl Jam, etc. came along and brought rootsy/blusey 
    guitar back to mass popularity. And now we can all feel like guitar
    heroes again!
    
    
    Brad
    

As I understood it Arlen Roth was the slide coach. I thought Ry Cooder played
the actual slides.

I also understood that Vai played both parts in the duel...

dave

    If you ask me... and you didn't...
    
    
    
    
    
    		Steve Vai "WON"
    
    
    And there's a tremendous irony in that scene (watch it again with
    what I'm about to say in mind):
    
    	Machio won because he basically played a mediocre cover of
    	an old piece of music.
    
    	The stuff Vai did was very original and stylistic. Vai lost because he
    	couldn't IMITATE what Macchio played.
    
    Only in a blues jam could incredible originality lose to imitation!
    
    ;-)

    >and didn't Steve Vai play the part of the evil_sold_his_soul_shredder
    >in "Crossroads"....only to be defeated in cuttin' heads at the end by
    >The Karate Kid faking classical music lix on a Tele?  Sheesh, now that
    >I think about it, the movie was about Ralph Machio wantin' to be a
    >bloozman, but it's ending climax is totally void of any I IV V
    >stuff....go figger!
    
    You got it Dawg -- Ralph Machio, the proposed Blues_man, ends up
    restorting to playing a Paganini violin caprice (#5, to be exact)
    to beat Steve_Vai_the_Devil_Guy...  What irony!

>    Maybe Arlen Roth IS the devil!

    Naw, I worked with him one night in 1981 in the basement of a music
    store in western mass. He was doing some lead work for a mutual friend
    of ours that was putting some new songs down on tape. I didn't know him
    from Adam. He didn't seem devilish, but he was a hell of a tele player.
    Had a real old one too.

    Also, the editorial in the latest GP is very relevant to what's been
    going on in this conference. Rik Emitt (sp?) had been critical of some
    stuff printed in GP because it trashed some styles of playing. Basically
    Joe Gore says in the editorial if we don't have strong opinions of
    what's good and what's bad, then what's the point.

    Gee, Dave, I'm glad you reminded me *AGAIN* how you thought Steve Vai
    won.  
    
    "Crossroads" is such a bastardization of the blues anyway, it's an easy
    target...why not pick on someone who can fight back?  8^)  8^)
    
    							Brian

    <<< Note 2845.256 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Down on that shreddin' flo'" >>>

    If you ask me... and you didn't...
    
    
    That's right... I didn't!    :-)
    
    
    
    	 I won't argue who really won in the end... as soon as The Karate
    Kid resorted to that classical bit, the whole movie went down the tubes
    in alot of ways.
    
    	But UNTIL that moment, I *personally* felt more thrilled with the
    slide guitar parts than Vai's parts. Both were technically awesome, but
    the slide licks had more of a .... an edge to them, a raunchiness, and
    a sense of "teetering on the brink"... Vai's licks were amazing, like
    watching the chineese acrobats; such precision & accuracy-- and you'd
    be shocked to hear him make a mistake. But the slide parts sounded more
    dangerous & risky, like it could go out of control at any moment...
    the slide parts were more like watching the old US Olympics hockey
    team winning the gold; watching Steve Vai play is like watching the
    "Dream Team" from the last Olympics... great style & flash, but not
    much excitement-- you didn't really expect them to lose, did you?
    
    
    Brad
    (Using up my life-time allotment of sports analogies...
     and I can't stand sports, too.)
    

>    "Crossroads" is such a bastardization of the blues anyway, it's an easy
>    target...why not pick on someone who can fight back?  8^)  8^)
    
    Good one! 
    
    OK... how about this:
    
    I think the girl who played the baby sitter in "Adventures in
    Babysitting" was a MUCH better blues singer than Albert Collins.
    
    ;-)

    <<< Note 2845.261 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Down on that shreddin' flo'" >>>
    
  >  I think the girl who played the baby sitter in "Adventures in
  >  Babysitting" was a MUCH better blues singer than Albert Collins.
    
    
    
    	Okay, now you've really gone too far, buddy boy....
    
    

re: .261

>    I think the girl who played the baby sitter in "Adventures in
>    Babysitting" was a MUCH better blues singer than Albert Collins.
    
Now you're picking on a guy who's dying of cancer.

    Elizabeth Shue can do no wrong in my book.
    
    Hey, note that she was also in Karate Kid with Ralph Macho-man;
    coincidence?  I think not!
    
    /rick

    OK, I have to fess up to somethin': I really like Albert Collins. Don't
    have any of his records but have some precious video of him somewhere,
    which is how I got into him.
    
    He's a lot of fun to watch - he puts a LOT into his playing.
    
    > Hey, note that she was also in Karate Kid with Ralph Macho-man;
    > coincidence?  I think not!
    
    That hadn't even occurred to me.  Wow!  I'm hearin' the Twilight Zone
    theme...
    
    	db

    re: Albert Collins
    
    His latest release is sorta of a AC greatest hits kind of thing, but
    they are re-recorded! And they cook!  Stuff like "Master Charge".
    A must for AC fans.
    
    AC has a very distinctive style and sound. Not likely to be duplicated.
    
    jim

    Speaking of latest Releases.....I have a copy of John Mayall's latest
    CD.  It has some killer stuff on it.  I really like the tune about the
    Korean War soldier...it's alot like Gary Moore's "Oh Pretty Woman"; I
    think it's called "One Life to Live".  Good strong blues CD....if ya
    like Da Blooz, that is!
    
    dawg (Stormy's is less than a week away!)

    /Steve
    
    Yes, it's 'Chicago Line'......I didn't know how new it was, but I did
    think it was his latest release.  Two killer axe-men.
    
    thanks!
    
    dawg

Isn't mayhall's other git player something like Walter Trout? Or was that
a vonnegut  thing...?

dbii

>-< Troutplaying in America >-

    My God, is this a reference to Richard Braudigan?

    --Ron

    **New Flash** !
    
    Harry K Cody guns down Eric Clapton in Uzi assault attack -- film at 11!

    re: Mayall references
    
    John Mayall has 2 releases since Chicago Line which has Walter Trout and 
    Coco Montoya on guitar.  Sense of Place which features Sonny Landreth 
    playing slide guitar and Wake Up Call which is primarilly Coco Montoya 
    and Dave Grissom on guitar but there are some guests, Buddy Guy being the 
    only one I can think of off hand.
    
    Mike

>               <<< Note 2845.272 by LEDS::BURATI "boss burato" >>>

>>-< Troutplaying in America >-

>    My God, is this a reference to Richard Braudigan?
   
   I'm sorry, I thought you were a <walter> trout stream.

   I'm not.

   -- Sam
   

    
    So where's Eric?  Or wasn't he a trout?  Not Kilgore Trout ( Kurt V. )
    . . .
    
    And then a still picture is run of Lennon ( the shy one ) with NO SHOES
    ON!  Which starts a near-libelous 'John is Dead' rumor . . .
    
    	But I don't think they used an 'oozey' . . .
                                                                

re: 60's burn outs...and R. B.

hey I still like my watermelon sugar!

re: is god dead?

Nope he's vacationing in the Pocono's

:-)

dbii

    I'm outta here in a few:
    
    Happy Thanksgiving to all you pentatonic, I-IV-V, self-indulgent,
    one-song, whining, unemotional types.
    
    The rest of you can go to hell as far as I'm concerned.  ;-)
    
    With the sincerist and deepest love, affection and shit like that,
    
    	db

    
    
    Someone give db the bird, eh?
    
    Edd

    Re-a few back;- Albert Collins aka the Iceman,died this weekend from
    the aforementioned cancer.
    

bummer.

    Anyone happen to catch note 565.38 in the MUSIC conference?
    
    It's a program that no doubt you guys will all want: 
    
    			A blues song generator!
    
    At the moment it only generates lyrics, but then it doesn't really
    need to do anything more.  You already know the chords right?
    
    ;-)
    
    	db

>    You already know the chords right?
    
    My point exactly.  I was thinking about this last night.  Lessee, it'd
    be somewhat limited, but as a "bah-loser" I'm of course used to this.
    
    Basically you need it to generate two pairs of phrases: one pair, to be
    repeated, for the first and second lines of the song (measures 1-8),
    and the second pair for the third line (measures 9-12).  Each phrase 
    need only be syntactically identical to all the others.  Oh, and the
    lines don't have to rhyme (my rule).  Now, do I know enough English to 
    determine what the proper syntax would be?  Maybe I can do it 
    empirically, using some well-known examples...
    
    First phrases:                 Seconds phrases:
    -------------                  ---------------
    Been down so long              bottom look like up
    Lord have mercy                Lord have mercy on me
    Woke up this mornin'           put on my walkin' shoes
    My baby done left me           she left me all alone
    ...
    
    Hmmm...  Maybe there are possibilities here.  Of course, this sort of
    thing won't win any converts to the idiom...  %^)
    
    Dave

    re: -1
    
    you forgot "The dog ate my software!"; one of the most popular all time
    blues themes......
    
    :*}

>    Basically you need it to generate two pairs of phrases: one pair, to be
>    repeated, for the first and second lines of the song (measures 1-8),
>    and the second pair for the third line (measures 9-12).  Each phrase 
>    need only be syntactically identical to all the others.  Oh, and the
>    lines don't have to rhyme (my rule).  
    
    That's indeed what it does.
    
    	db

    There is also the generic blues line
    
    "Have you ever seen  <insert tragic vision of your choice here>?"
    
    
    I heard one like this on the radio the other day that went like this:
    
    "Have you ever seen a one-eyed woman cry?"
    
    Now that was one sad, sad song!
    
    jim

    re: .288
    
    Rollin'!  Kinda like "Busier than a one-armed paperhanger."  %^)
    
    OK, all you blusers, since I personally haven't heard all the blues
    lyrics ever written (I almost said "blues songs", then I remembered),
    post here all the phrase pairs you can think of, I'll collect them and
    modify that rap.c to produce blues lyrics.  That ought to keep Brian
    busy for a couple of decades.  %^)
    
    Dave

    re: -1
    
    ok here's one:
    
    "crowded elevators smell different to a midget"......
    
    I *know* I heard that in a blooz song somewhere.....
    
    :*}

/* blues.c - random blues lyrics generator */
 
#include <stdio.h>
#include <time.h>
#include <ctype.h>
 
/* The phrase arrays must be the same size */

static char *phrase1[] =
{
  "Been down so long",
  "Lord have mercy",
  "Woke up this mornin'",
  "My baby done left me",
  "Woke up early this mornin'",
  "Been tryin' to find my baby",
  "There's a red house over yonder",
  "I ain't been home to see my baby",
  "Wait a minute, something's wrong here",
  "I got a real bad feeling",
  "Well, it's floodin' down in Texas",
  "I been tryin' to call my baby",
  "Well, dark clouds are rollin' in",
  "Yeah, flood waters keep a-rollin'",
  "Well, I'm leavin' you baby",
  "Back home there's no floods or tornadoes",
  "Have you ever loved a woman",
  "All the time you know",
  "You just love that woman",
  "All the time you know",
  "Have you ever loved a woman",
  "Something deep inside of you",
};
 
static char *phrase2[] =
{
  "bottom look like up",
  "Lord have mercy on me",
  "put on my walkin' shoes",
  "she left me all alone",
  "blues all 'round my head",
  "won't somebody send her home to me",
  "that's where my baby stays",
  "in ninety-nine and one half days",
  "the key won't unlock this door",
  "my baby don't live here no more",
  "all of the telephone lines are down",
  "Lord, and I can't get a single sound",
  "man, I'm standin' out in the rain",
  "man, it's about to drive poor me insane",
  "Lord, I'm goin' back home to stay",
  "baby, the sun shines every day",
  "so much you tremble in pain?",
  "she bears another man's name",
  "so much it's a shame and a sin",
  "she belongs to your very best friend",
  "and you can't leave her alone",
  "won't let you wreck your best friend's home",
};

int nphrases = sizeof( phrase1 ) / sizeof( phrase1[0] );

/* The auth arrays must be the same size */

static char *auth1[] =
{
  "Blind",
  "Blind",
  "Blind",
  "Blind",
  "Blind",
  "Blind",
  "Blind",
};

static char *auth2[] =
{
  "Lemon",
  "Watermelon",
  "Melon",
  "Chitlin",
  "Rutabaga",
  "Turnip",
  "Pizelle",
};

static char *auth3[] =
{
  "Washington",
  "Jefferson",
  "Jackson",
  "Lincoln",
  "Roosevelt",
  "Blickstein",
  "Linguini",
};

int nauthors = sizeof( auth1 ) / sizeof( auth1[0] );

int authors[3],chor[2][2];

char *title(),*author();
void verse();

main()
{
   int i,j,k,getpid();
   time_t now;
 
   /* Generate random seed */
 
   now = time(&now) / rand();
   srand(getpid() + (int)((now >> 16) + now + time(&now)));
 
   /* Print out song */
 
   for( k = 0; k < 5; ++k )
   {
      /* Load chor with random numbers */
      for (i = 0; i < 2; i++)
      {
         for (j = 0; j < 2; j++)
            chor[i][j] = rand() % nphrases;
         if( chor[i][0] == chor[i][1] )
            chor[i][1] = (chor[i][1] + 1) % nphrases;
      }
      if( chor[0][0] == chor[1][0] )
         chor[1][0] = (chor[1][0] + 1) % nphrases;
      if( chor[0][1] == chor[1][1] )
         chor[1][1] = (chor[1][1] + 1) % nphrases;
      /* Get title and author */
      if( k == 0 )
      {
         for (i = 0; i < 3; i++)
            authors[i] = rand() % nauthors;
         (void) printf("\n\"%s\", by %s\n",title(),author());
      }
      /* Print a verse */
      verse();
   }
   (void) printf("\n-----\n");
}
 
char *title()
{
   return( phrase1[chor[0][0]] );
}

char *author()
{
   char s[80];
   sprintf( s, "%s %s %s",
            auth1[authors[0]],
            auth2[authors[1]],
            auth3[authors[2]] );
   return( s );
}

void verse()
{
   printf("\n%s, %s\n",phrase1[chor[0][0]],phrase2[chor[0][1]]);
   printf(  "%s, %s\n",phrase1[chor[0][0]],phrase2[chor[0][1]]);
   printf(  "%s, %s\n",phrase1[chor[1][0]],phrase2[chor[1][1]]);
}

    I'm cleaning coffee off my screen...
    
    For those of you who think .291 is a joke, I recommend you extract
    the note, compile, link and RUN that program!!
    
    I'll never need to write another lyric again in my life!!!
    
    I'm VERY tempted to go home and record some blues tune and using
    lyrics generated by Daves program and submit it!!
    
    Awesome job Dave!!
    
    jc (rollin' on the ground laughin'!!)
    
    PS - Who is Blind Watermellon Blickstein!?!?
                                                

    I was rolling too!!!  Especially when I saw "Blickstein" in the "last
    name" list!  Waahahhahaha!!
    
    Greg

    It is, however, hosed up.  Doesn't correctly print the author's
    name....

    RE: -1
    
    tech assistance needed.....
    
    I'm logged on via dlogin from my DECstation (RISC/Ultrix) to a Vax
    cluster (VMS) that I read notes from.  When I extract the program from
    .291 onto my disk space in the Vax cluster account and then dcp the
    file onto my local disk in the Ultrix box, it gets jumbled to hell.
    
    Can I extract from notes directly to my disk on the DECstation?
    
    dawg

    and another thang!
    
    Isn't there some way I can read notes from my DECstation?  I suppose
    there has to be some resident program on my disk that allows me to
    access notes.  Does anyone know where I can get the Ultrix version?
    I have to dlogin to a Vax cluster and then access notes, now.
    
    sd

    re: .295
    
    Note p-name.
    
    %^)

    re: .297
    
    Finally learned how to spell dawg, eh?
    
    :*)

>    Doesn't correctly print the author's name....
    
    Works for me.  What's the output look like?
    
    OK, you folks who have been hording lyrics on line for years, send me
    your blues tunes and I'll add them to the data.  The more choices, the
    better the songs will be.
    
    Oh, and I can't take full credit for this; like a good engineer I stole 
    the framework - I mean I reused code from the rap lyrics generator db
    referred to, that was posted to the Music notesfile.  Which does not
    imply that I *wouldn't* like to work in your group.
    
    Dave

>>    Doesn't correctly print the author's name....
>    
>    Works for me.  What's the output look like?
    
    It has a blank for the author's name...  FWIW, this is on an Alpha
    machine compiled with DECC.
    
    It appears that it has something to do with the way the routine
    "author" is returning "s".
    
    Greg  (still learning this stuff...)

re: .5

>    I'm logged on via dlogin from my DECstation (RISC/Ultrix) to a Vax
>    cluster (VMS) that I read notes from.  When I extract the program from
>    .291 onto my disk space in the Vax cluster account and then dcp the
>    file onto my local disk in the Ultrix box, it gets jumbled to hell.
    
dawg:
    There's probably some incantation you can use on the Ultrix machine
to pull the file over in the correct format, but I don't know what it is.
However, I whipped up a quick tool for you to convert it on the VAX before
copying it to the Ultrix machine.  It's in my next reply.

-Hal

$! Convert VMS-native variable-length record files to Stream LF format
$!
$! Hal Laurent	02-Dec-1993
$!
$! Usage: @txt2stlf input-file output-file
$!
$	if P1 .EQS. "" then goto usage_message
$	if P2 .EQS. "" then goto usage_message
$	convert/fdl=sys$input 'P1' 'P2'
RECORD
	FORMAT stream_lf
$	exit
$!
$ usage_message:
$	write sys$output "Usage: @txt2stlf input-file output-file"
$	exit

/* blues.c - random blues lyrics generator */
 
#include <stdio.h>
#include <time.h>
#include <ctype.h>
 
/* The phrase arrays must be the same size */

static char *phrase1[] =
{
  "Been down so long",
  "Lord have mercy",
  "Woke up this mornin'",
  "My baby done left me",
  "Woke up early this mornin'",
  "Been tryin' to find my baby",
  "There's a red house over yonder",
  "I ain't been home to see my baby",
  "Wait a minute, something's wrong here",
  "I got a real bad feeling",
  "Well, it's floodin' down in Texas",
  "I been tryin' to call my baby",
  "Well, dark clouds are rollin' in",
  "Yeah, flood waters keep a-rollin'",
  "Well, I'm leavin' you baby",
  "Back home there's no floods or tornadoes",
  "Have you ever loved a woman",
  "All the time you know",
  "You just love that woman",
  "All the time you know",
  "Have you ever loved a woman",
  "Something deep inside of you",
};
 
static char *phrase2[] =
{
  "bottom look like up",
  "Lord have mercy on me",
  "put on my walkin' shoes",
  "she left me all alone",
  "blues all 'round my head",
  "won't somebody send her home to me",
  "that's where my baby stays",
  "in ninety-nine and one half days",
  "the key won't unlock this door",
  "my baby don't live here no more",
  "all of the telephone lines are down",
  "Lord, and I can't get a single sound",
  "man, I'm standin' out in the rain",
  "man, it's about to drive poor me insane",
  "Lord, I'm goin' back home to stay",
  "baby, the sun shines every day",
  "so much you tremble in pain?",
  "she bears another man's name",
  "so much it's a shame and a sin",
  "she belongs to your very best friend",
  "and you can't leave her alone",
  "won't let you wreck your best friend's home",
};

int nphrases = sizeof( phrase1 ) / sizeof( phrase1[0] );

/* The auth arrays must be the same size */

static char *auth1[] =
{
  "Blind",
  "Blind",
  "Blind",
  "Blind",
  "Blind",
  "Blind",
  "Blind",
};

static char *auth2[] =
{
  "Lemon",
  "Watermelon",
  "Melon",
  "Chitlin",
  "Rutabaga",
  "Turnip",
  "Pizelle",
};

static char *auth3[] =
{
  "Washington",
  "Jefferson",
  "Jackson",
  "Lincoln",
  "Roosevelt",
  "Blickstein",
  "Linguini",
};

int nauthors = sizeof( auth1 ) / sizeof( auth1[0] );

int authors[3],chor[2][2];
static char auth_string[80];
char *title(),*author();
void verse();

main()
{
   int i,j,k,getpid();
   time_t now;
 
   /* Generate random seed */
 
   now = time(&now) / rand();
   srand(getpid() + (int)((now >> 16) + now + time(&now)));
 
   /* Print out song */
 
   for( k = 0; k < 5; ++k )
   {
      /* Load chor with random numbers */
      for (i = 0; i < 2; i++)
      {
         for (j = 0; j < 2; j++)
            chor[i][j] = rand() % nphrases;
         if( chor[i][0] == chor[i][1] )
            chor[i][1] = (chor[i][1] + 1) % nphrases;
      }
      if( chor[0][0] == chor[1][0] )
         chor[1][0] = (chor[1][0] + 1) % nphrases;
      if( chor[0][1] == chor[1][1] )
         chor[1][1] = (chor[1][1] + 1) % nphrases;
      /* Get title and author */
      if( k == 0 )
      {
         for (i = 0; i < 3; i++)
            authors[i] = rand() % nauthors;
         (void) printf("\n\"%s\", by %s\n",title(),author());
      }
      /* Print a verse */
      verse();
   }
   (void) printf("\n-----\n");
}
 
char *title()
{
   return( phrase1[chor[0][0]] );
}

char *author()
{
   char s[80];
   sprintf( auth_string, "%s %s %s",
            auth1[authors[0]],
            auth2[authors[1]],
            auth3[authors[2]] );
   return( auth_string );
}

void verse()
{
   printf("\n%s, %s\n",phrase1[chor[0][0]],phrase2[chor[0][1]]);
   printf(  "%s, %s\n",phrase1[chor[0][0]],phrase2[chor[0][1]]);
   printf(  "%s, %s\n",phrase1[chor[1][0]],phrase2[chor[1][1]]);
}
    

    I fixed the problem by making the string used in the sprintf and
    returned by the "author" routine a static char defined outside the
    routine, so that the rest of the procedure could see it.  Don't know
    why it makes any difference, but it works now and it didn't work
    before.  (BTW, I'm still learning C, so if some kind soul out there can
    explain to me why this works, I'd like to know...)
    
    Greg
    
    
    Output before:
    
    GOES11$ r/nodebug blues_orig
    
    "Been down so long", by
    
    Been down so long, won't let you wreck your best friend's home
    Been down so long, won't let you wreck your best friend's home
    Lord have mercy, Lord, and I can't get a single sound
    
    Back home there's no floods or tornadoes, Lord, I'm goin' back home to
    stay
    Back home there's no floods or tornadoes, Lord, I'm goin' back home to
    stay
    Yeah, flood waters keep a-rollin', all of the telephone lines are down
    
    Back home there's no floods or tornadoes, all of the telephone lines
    are down
    Back home there's no floods or tornadoes, all of the telephone lines
    are down
    Been tryin' to find my baby, Lord, and I can't get a single sound
    
    My baby done left me, so much it's a shame and a sin
    My baby done left me, so much it's a shame and a sin
    Been tryin' to find my baby, all of the telephone lines are down
    
    Yeah, flood waters keep a-rollin', that's where my baby stays
    Yeah, flood waters keep a-rollin', that's where my baby stays
    Something deep inside of you, Lord, I'm goin' back home to stay
    
    _____
    
    
    Output after:
    
    GOES11$ r/nodebug blues_orig_new
    
    "Well, I'm leavin' you baby", by Blind Chitlin Jefferson
    
    Well, I'm leavin' you baby, man, it's about to drive poor me insane
    Well, I'm leavin' you baby, man, it's about to drive poor me insane
    Have you ever loved a woman, Lord, I'm goin' back home to stay
    
    Something deep inside of you, man, I'm standin' out in the rain
    Something deep inside of you, man, I'm standin' out in the rain
    Yeah, flood waters keep a-rollin', blues all 'round my head
    
    I got a real bad feeling, Lord, I'm goin' back home to stay
    I got a real bad feeling, Lord, I'm goin' back home to stay
    Something deep inside of you, put on my walkin' shoes
    
    My baby done left me, and you can't leave her alone
    My baby done left me, and you can't leave her alone
    Lord have mercy, so much it's a shame and a sin
    
    All the time you know, that's where my baby stays
    All the time you know, that's where my baby stays
    All the time you know, so much it's a shame and a sin
    
    -----

    r: -1
    
    Thanks Hal, that cleaned it up great!
    
    stevo

    You're right, Greg, I should have made array c static; then it would
    have worked.  Your making a global array does the same thing.  Funny my
    version worked OK for me.
    
    Mus' be dat ol' black magic...
    
    Dave

>    You're right, Greg, I should have made array c static; then it would
    
    You mean array "s"?

re: .304

>    I fixed the problem by making the string used in the sprintf and
>    returned by the "author" routine a static char defined outside the
>    routine, so that the rest of the procedure could see it.  Don't know
>    why it makes any difference, but it works now and it didn't work
>    before.  (BTW, I'm still learning C, so if some kind soul out there can
>    explain to me why this works, I'd like to know...)
    
Greg:
    
    Actually, all you really needed to do is make "s" in "author()"
static.  You didn't really need to move it (although it didn't hurt
either).  The problem before your mod was that "author()" was returning
a pointer to a string variable allocated on it's own stack.  Once
"author()" returns, that stack space is reused.  The only reason it 
worked on VMS was accidental...nothing else had reused that piece of
stack space yet.

-Hal

    Thanks guys, I understand now.  The reason I missed it before was
    because I didn't notice that author was declared as a pointer.
        
    Greg

    Hahaha!!  I just got a killer one out of it by Blind Lemon Blickstein! 
    I'm gonna have to save it so Sam and I can play it at our next
    rehearsal!
    
    Greg

>    You mean array "s"?
    
    Yes... whatever.  A typo here, a typo there...
    
    re: .308
    
    What he said.
    
    Dave

   Yeah, I saw the originals (both rap and blues) over in MUSIC and tried
   compiling them on AXP VMS, and both had problems.  Brought 'em over to
   my ULTRIX box and they worked fine.  Love them type-checking compilers
   (not to mention "portable languages"...).

   Dawg, you can save the file directly to your ULTRIX machine by using the
   VMS notes command

	Notes> extract/noheader ultrix_node"username password"::outfile.c

   just like you were doing a regular DECnet copy.  Either that or pull over
   the .c files using dcp, but do not specifiy "-i" to dcp.  Should work.

   And yes, there's a Motif-style interface to Notes which runs on ULTRIX.
   There's too much background info you need to know to use it to go into
   here, but there's a notesfile on it.  See USPAR::XNOTES for more info.

   -- Sam

>>>    Doesn't correctly print the author's name....
    
>>    Works for me.  What's the output look like?
    
>    It has a blank for the author's name...  
    
    Considering that I'm in the author list, I'd say this is a "feature"
    not a "bug".
    
    	Blind Lemon Blick

    Yes, the XNOTES interface works pretty well (especially when cleaning
    up a messy conference or topic - like FOR SALE and General Discussion).  
    I also have a several different kind of PC based notes interfaces that 
    work well...(better than the DECW/MOTIF/XWIN/Char_cel ones!!).
    
    jc

    A friend that used U*ix told me that the Notes interface on there
    sucked.  I haven't seen it myself.
    
    re: db
    
>>>>    Doesn't correctly print the author's name....
    
>>>    Works for me.  What's the output look like?
    
>>    It has a blank for the author's name...  
    
>    Considering that I'm in the author list, I'd say this is a "feature"
>    not a "bug".
 
    So...you saying it was working right all along?
    ;^)
    
   				 Blind Melon-tweakin House

    I got the unjumbled version on my DECstation thanx to Hal's nifty VMS
    unscrambler.  Complied, linked and ran....it came out fine as is on my
    screen, author an all.  It's a kick!  Thanks Hick!
    
    
    One_eyed_lemon_blind_gatemouth_B.B._dawg

    Geesh, this note has gone from religious wars to nerds on parade; no
    wonder we've all got the blooze!
    
    many :-)
    
    /rick_a_nerd_too

    I'll have to try this program on AXP OSF/1 - it should play some
    uptempo blues.  %^)
    
    BTW, I was able to send email to Dave Sakelaris via the Internet. 
    If you're interested, try "[email protected]".
    
    Dave

    >  I'll have to try this program on AXP OSF/1 - it should play some
    >  uptempo blues.  %^)
    
    And the solos will have way too many notes.

/* blues.c - random blues lyrics generator */

/*
 * on UNIX: $ cc blues.c -o blues
 *
 * on VMS:  $ blues :== $blues.exe
 *          $ cc blues
 *          $ link blues
 *
 * syntax:  $ blues [ -e ]
 */
 
#include <stdio.h>
#include <time.h>
#include <ctype.h>
 
/* The phrase arrays must be the same size */

static char *phrase1[] =
{
  "Been down so long",
  "Lord have mercy",
  "Woke up this mornin'",
  "My baby done left me",
  "Woke up early this mornin'",
  "Been tryin' to find my baby",
  "There's a red house over yonder",
  "I ain't been home to see my baby",
  "Wait a minute, something's wrong here",
  "I got a real bad feeling",
  "Well, it's floodin' down in Texas",
  "I been tryin' to call my baby",
  "Well, dark clouds are rollin' in",
  "Yeah, flood waters keep a-rollin'",
  "Well, I'm leavin' you baby",
  "Back home there's no floods or tornadoes",
  "Have you ever loved a woman",
  "All the time you know",
  "You just love that woman",
  "All the time you know",
  "Have you ever loved a woman",
  "Something deep inside of you",
};
 
static char *phrase2[] =
{
  "bottom look like up",
  "Lord have mercy on me",
  "put on my walkin' shoes",
  "she left me all alone",
  "blues all 'round my head",
  "won't somebody send her home to me",
  "that's where my baby stays",
  "in ninety-nine and one half days",
  "the key won't unlock this door",
  "my baby don't live here no more",
  "all of the telephone lines are down",
  "and I can't get a single sound",
  "I'm standin' out in the rain",
  "it's about to drive poor me insane",
  "I'm goin' back home to stay",
  "the sun shines every day",
  "so much you tremble in pain?",
  "she bears another man's name",
  "so much it's a shame and a sin",
  "she belongs to your very best friend",
  "and you can't leave her alone",
  "won't let you wreck your best friend's home",
};

int nphrases = sizeof( phrase1 ) / sizeof( phrase1[0] );

static char *auth1[] =
{
  "Blind",
};

/* Arrays auth2 and auth3 must be the same size */

static char *auth2[] =
{
  "Lemon",
  "Watermelon",
  "Melon",
  "Chitlin",
  "Rutabaga",
  "Turnip",
  "Pizelle",
};

static char *auth3[] =
{
  "Washington",
  "Jefferson",
  "Jackson",
  "Lincoln",
  "Roosevelt",
  "Blickstein",
  "Linguini",
};

int nauthors = sizeof( auth2 ) / sizeof( auth2[0] );

static char *emot1[] =
{
  "yes",
  "well now",
  "dontcha know",
  "Lord",
  "baby",
  "oh baby",
  "I mean",
  "lemme tell ya",
  "man",
};

int nemotions1 = sizeof( emot1 ) / sizeof( emot1[0] );

static char *emot2[] =
{
  "that's right",
  "oh, you know it",
  "Amen",
};

int nemotions2 = sizeof( emot2 ) / sizeof( emot2[0] );

int authors[3],chor[2][2];

char *title(),*author();
void verse();

int emotion = FALSE;

main( argc, argv )
int argc;
char *argv[];
{
   int i,j,k,getpid();
   time_t now;
 
   /* Check for command line switches */
   if( (argc > 1) && (strcmp(argv[1],"-e") == 0) )
      emotion = TRUE;

   /* Generate random seed */
 
   now = time(&now) / rand();
   srand(getpid() + (int)((now >> 16) + now + time(&now)));
 
   /* Print out song */
   for( k = 0; k < 5; ++k )
   {
      /* Load chor with random numbers */
      for (i = 0; i < 2; i++)
      {
         for (j = 0; j < 2; j++)
            chor[i][j] = rand() % nphrases;
         if( chor[i][0] == chor[i][1] )
            chor[i][1] = (chor[i][1] + 1) % nphrases;
      }
      if( chor[0][0] == chor[1][0] )
         chor[1][0] = (chor[1][0] + 1) % nphrases;
      if( chor[0][1] == chor[1][1] )
         chor[1][1] = (chor[1][1] + 1) % nphrases;

      /* Get title and author */
      if( k == 0 )
      {
         for (i = 0; i < 3; i++)
            authors[i] = rand() % nauthors;
         (void) printf("\n\"%s\", by %s\n",title(),author());
      }
      /* Print a verse */
      verse();
   }
   (void) printf("\n-----\n");
}
 
char *title()
{
   return( phrase1[chor[0][0]] );
}

char *author()
{
   static char s[80];
   (void) sprintf( s, "%s %s %s",
            auth1[0],
            auth2[authors[1]],
            auth3[authors[2]] );
   return( s );
}

void verse()
{
   (void) printf("\n%s%s%s, %s\n",
                 phrase1[chor[0][0]],
                 (emotion ? ", " : ""),
                 (emotion ? emot1[(rand() % nemotions1)] : ""),
                 phrase2[chor[0][1]]);

   (void) printf("%s%s%s, %s\n",
                 phrase1[chor[0][0]],
                 (emotion ? ", " : ""),
                 (emotion ? emot1[(rand() % nemotions1)] : ""),
                 phrase2[chor[0][1]]);

   (void) printf("%s, %s%s%s.\n",
                 phrase1[chor[1][0]],
                 phrase2[chor[1][1]],
                 (emotion ? ", " : ""),
                 (emotion ? emot2[(rand() % nemotions2)] : ""));
}

    Alan Starr just posted this in another conference.
    
    Interpret this as you wish:
    
	"Just got a phone call from Pete Cook, thought I'd drop in an 
    	 update for anyone interested. He's now the drummer for a 
    	 blues/rock band called Blue Steel"
    
    ;-)
    
    	db

    Now, now, Pete's not here to defend himself, Dave.
    
    							Brian

    Excerpted the usenet.  I offer this as substantiation of my claim
    that Shredders/HM'ers can't even talk about those styles without
    cliched and erroneous statements from blues fans.
    
    	db
    
From:	DECPA::"[email protected]" "Igor Sinyak"  5-DEC-1993 23:42:36.30
To:	distribution:; (see end of body)
Subj:	Join the Rising Force

Announcing Rising Force - the neo-classical metal forum:

The purpose of this forum is to provide a means of communication for 
those appreciating the incorporation of classical music into today's 
rock/metal.  While this was the in thing to do for guitarists a few 
years back, the only ones left playing it and listening to it are those 
who truly love it.

There are bits and pieces of threads occuring about the topic on the 
Internet, and this is an attempt to let us express our opinions without 
flames like "they don't play with feeling, listen to blues instead".
    
    [rest of the message deleted]

>There are bits and pieces of threads occuring about the topic on the 
>Internet, and this is an attempt to let us express our opinions without 
>flames like "they don't play with feeling, listen to blues instead".
    
    TOLDYA!!!
    
    

    I truly wish I'd never started this note, as my musical life has gone
    to hell ever since...
    
    First I got sent to New Orleans where there's a blues player on every
    corner. Now I'm in San Francisco, where the melodious (malodorous?)
    sounds from "Lou's Blues" club waft into my hotel room all night.
    Argh, all I can hear is the bass line. You know, THE bass line.
    
    Save me!!! My entire rig for a 9th!
    
    Edd

>There are bits and pieces of threads occuring about the topic on the 
>Internet, and this is an attempt to let us express our opinions without 
>flames like "they don't play with feeling, listen to blues instead".
    
    Uh, excuse me Mr. ProgRock, but I don't see anyone being quoted by you
    except the HM advocate.  *He* says he's concerned about flames like
    that, but he doesn't quote one, he invents one.  I appreciate your
    point, and I'm sure he *has* heard plenty of flames like that, but it
    seems to me your quote just illustrates the fact that HM'ers and 
    shredders and progrockers and bluesers are all saying the same thing: 
    "You can't really appreciate the music I like unless you like it, too."
    
    To my mind, this illustrates the point that people are all the same, no
    matter what type of music they like.  Which is what I think you've been 
    saying all along (correct me if I'm wrong).
    
    Dave

    re: -1
    
    my god, here we go again..............
    
    

    Hey, db just because *one* person on the USENET (known to be the home
    to the greatest thinkers of our time....agagagagaga) has a problem with
    bluesers doesn't prove your point.
    
    One example doesn't prove anything; one *counterexample* can *disprove*
    something.
    
    OK, *I* like blues, *I* don't think that all shredders lack feeling,
    therefore, the proof fails by counterexample.
    
    Hey, can we start a note on the guitar-related aspects of the Kennedy
    assasination conspiracy theories?
    
    							Brian

    >Hey, can we start a note on the guitar-related aspects of the Kennedy
    >assasination conspiracy theories?
    
    Please do!  The topic would change *and* we'd probably get fewer
    replies!
    
    
    

    
    Hey, Oliver Stone is going to do a Bible movie...from what I've heard
    so far, it sounds like there was a second Savior on the grassy knoll...
    
    

    Guys,
    
    I'm not able nor willing to post every example from the usenet here.
    
    You are free to believe it it's only "*one* person on the USENET"
    or whatever if you like.
    
    	db

>    Save me!!! My entire rig for a 9th!
    
    Naw, go for the b5...
    ;^)
    
    I don't know what you guys are getting so defensive about.  
    
    The implication of the message db reposted is clearly that the guy
    want's to start the mailing list *because* there are people out there
    that would like to discuss that style of music without getting the
    "blues gospel" preached at 'em.  If that hadn't been happening, why
    would he bother to say it?
    
    This is very similar to the reason the HEAVY_METAL notesfile here at
    DEC was created back in '87 or '88.  People got such a ration of
    excrement from the noting communitity in the MUSIC notesfile every time
    they mentioned a hard rock or heavy metal band, that they felt they
    needed their own forum where they could discuss the music they enjoyed
    without persecution (of course, it later degraded into chit-chat and a
    social club, but that's irrevelant to this discussion).
    
    Greg

    >People got such a ration of
    >excrement from the noting communitity in the MUSIC notesfile every time
    >they mentioned a hard rock or heavy metal band....
    
    Not nearly enough, tho!  Steve Vai sucks!
    
    :*}  8^)
    
    dawg

    I can recall HM'ers in the old MUSIC notes getting a "ration of
    excrement".  But it wasn't just 'bluesers' (whatever THAT means) doing
    the excreting; plenty of people from all walks of life hate HM.
    
    This bluesers vs HM'ers (or shredders, or whatever) thing is a lot of
    baloney; the two aren't mutually exclusive.  I can name probably a
    handful of players I know personally (out of many more) who are clearly
    in either camp; most appreciate and enjoy a healthy dose of both
    styles.  The world is not that black and white, and the assumption
    that everyone who rags on HM is automatically a 'blueser' is just
    plain wrong.
    
    I'm all in favor of people with like interests having a flame-free
    forum to discuss their ideas.
    
    /rick

>    I can recall HM'ers in the old MUSIC notes getting a "ration of
>    excrement".  But it wasn't just 'bluesers' (whatever THAT means) doing
>    the excreting; plenty of people from all walks of life hate HM.
    
    No, it wasn't just bluesers.  I didn't mean to imply that.  It's just
    that intolerant people drove us away.  The point in some of the
    previous posts that I was trying to dispute was that I thought I heard
    a couple of people saying "Oh he didn't really hear that" or "he's just
    making that up".  Having experienced the style of slagging he implies
    he's gotten personally, I seriously doubt that the Internet guy is just
    making up any perceived persecution he may be getting.  It's a hassle
    to start a new {notesfile|newsgroup|mailinglist} and I'd be inclined to
    believe that he's doing it for a valid reason.
    
    There is a current trend toward blues and blues based playing that's
    perhaps stronger now then it was back when HM split off from MUSIC. 
    Given a similar complement of people today, I think perhaps the mean
    spirited heckling would have more of the "go listen to the blues"
    flavor to it if it happened now instead of five years ago.
    
    I've heard people basically say that exact statement in this notesfile
    within the last year.  The "if it's not weepy and slow, it's not
    emotional" argument.  Sorry, it doesn't fly for me.
    
    Greg

    RE: last one.....
    
    Greg,
    
    how can one faction 'drive' another out of a notes conference?  The
    departing group would have had to allow it!  Stand yer ground!  Heckel
    back I say!  Clapton does not suck!
    
    grrrrrrr

    Simply put Steve:  Signal to noise ratio.  If there are 25 people who
    want to talk about Metallica or something, and there are ten
    excrement-packed notes in between each relevent reply, then you can't 
    hear yourself in the mix.  So, off we went with the H_M conference.
    
    Heckling back and forth about who sucks, why, etc...  Gets old.  Even 
    for Pete Cook(!).
    
    > Clapton does not suck!
    
    Does too!
    :=)
                 

    > wadda you care what others say?
    
    I agree in principle, but I know that's an idealistic statement.
    
    > how can one faction 'drive' another out of a notes conference?
    
    Look at how upset people got about what was being said about the blues
    in here.
    
    That's "how".

    Everyone can get upset when things they like are attacked. It is the
    neanderthal attitude which seems to exist predominantley in males.
    
    	You know, the my dad is bigger than your dad, my football team
    is better than your team, etc etc.
    
    	It is a massive pain though when you are trying to read a 
    notes string about something you are interested in and there are
    flame notes in there.
    
    	RE clapton sucks.......does not phhhhhhhft 8^) (now thats a mature
    response)  
    
    	Coop have you heard claptons cover of Hendrix's Stone Free?
    	Whaddaya think?
    P.K.

re: Coop

>Heckling back and forth about who sucks, why, etc...  Gets old.

IMO - It sure does.... very old.  This notesfile (still one of my fave's)
seems to go through cycles - sometimes techie, sometimes chatty, sometimes
sickening, and sometimes inane.  

338 replies later - anyone changed their minds from this discussion?

    >338 replies later - anyone changed their minds from this discussion?
    
    I now think db is a total windbag.
    
    8^)  8^)  8^)  8^)
    
    							Brian

    > I now think db is a total windbag.
    
    I would've thought that was painfully obvious .341 replies ago!!!
    
    	db
    
    p.s. Bri, just submitted my first Transoniq Hacker article.  Many
    	 thanks to you for putting me in touch with them.

    re: Steve
        
>    how can one faction 'drive' another out of a notes conference?  The
>    departing group would have had to allow it!  Stand yer ground!  Heckel
>    back I say!  Clapton does not suck!
    
    Perhaps it had something to do with db's previous reference to
    metalheads not feeling inclined to antagonize other people about the
    music they like.  I mean, yeah, we could have polluted the MUSIC
    notesfile with the "if you're gonna say metallica suck, we'll just slam
    on clapton (et al) for awhile", or we could form a new notesfile where
    the hecklers would leave us alone.  Bottom line?  We didn't care
    whether anyone else liked what we liked or not, and we got tired of
    having people try to persuade us that all the music we liked was crap
    (there were notes that stated it in exactly that way).
    
    I actually remember some discussion in the HM notesfile when it first
    formed about why people feel so strongly compelled to lambast heavy
    metal music just because they don't personally like it.  It was
    something we never understood.  That particular musical genre always
    drew some of the most extreme reactions out of people.  Seems strange,
    if I don't like something, or don't know much about it, I won't
    generally say much about it, but there seems to be something about
    heavy metal music that made people rant and rave and go on and on (and
    on and on and on....ad nauseum) about how horrible it was, how little
    skill was involved in playing it (guess those people never tried to
    play any...), how unoriginal it was, how awful the (insert-instrument-
    of-your-choice) is, you name it!
    
    Bottom line?  They didn't "drive us away", we left by our own choice
    because we were disgusted with people's intolerance and tired of
    hearing their tireless tirades...  As Coop said, it get's tiring after
    awhile, even for Pete Cook (one of the conference founders).
    
    re: Brian
    
>    I now think db is a total windbag.
    
    You mean you didn't know?
    
    ;^) x 1000
    
    Greg (TotalWindbagII)

    RE: last string regarding my reply.....
    
    
    oh.........
    
    
    dawg

    re: EC cover of Stone Free ... it's great! My fave on that CD is the
    Pretenders doing "Bold as Love" ... great 'updated' cover of an
    incredible tune!

>    Perhaps it had something to do with db's previous reference to
>    metalheads not feeling inclined to antagonize other people about the
>    music they like.  I mean, yeah, we could have polluted the MUSIC
>    notesfile with the "if you're gonna say metallica suck, we'll just slam
>    on clapton (et al) for awhile", or we could form a new notesfile 
    
    > We didn't care whether anyone else liked what we liked or not, and we
    > got tired of having people try to persuade us that all the music we
    > liked was crap (there were notes that stated it in exactly that way).
    
    That has been my solid experience: Non-metallers, PARTICULARLY R&B
    types, are noticeably more prone to offering the kind of absolute,
    judgemental statements we've seen in here about other kinds of music
    (rap, HM, shred, prog, etc) than HMers.
    
    Perhaps it's because if you're the victim of bias, you're much more
    sensitive to it in yourself.
    
    	db windbag
    	Sophomoric Music Philosopher

    all this stuff really belongs in the "I don't get it" notes.....I now
    have personally met many of the noters in here.  I really dislike alot of
    the music that many of you like, and vice versa.  That, however, does
    not affect in any way my opinion of you all.......good grief, now *I'm*
    participating!  You PUFFHEADS are welcome in this conference as far as
    I'm concerned.......I need more stuff to slam; those of you who know me
    know I mean this in the nicest way!
    
    :*}  

>    That has been my solid experience: Non-metallers, PARTICULARLY R&B
>    types, are noticeably more prone to offering the kind of absolute,
>    judgemental statements we've seen in here about other kinds of music
>    (rap, HM, shred, prog, etc) than HMers.


Ah, ummm... isn't that an absolute, judgemental statement? Hmmmm?

Now, I *never* use absolutes! <g>

Bob

>    That has been my solid experience: Non-metallers, PARTICULARLY R&B
>    types, are noticeably more prone to offering the kind of absolute,
>    judgemental statements we've seen in here about other kinds of music
>    (rap, HM, shred, prog, etc) than HMers.

    Hmm, exactly what are you getting at here?  8^)  8^)
    
    Dave, that has NOT been my experience at all.  
    
    Are we done yet?
    
    							Brian

    re: Dawg
    
    Actually, I (also) *LOVE* these "slamming" contests (our own version of
    'pissing contests').   Dare I confess, that even though I like the blues,
    I had a blast ripping it to shreds?
    
    I think the only time it bothers me is when people actually BELIEVE
    some of the stuff they claim is "true" in any axiomatic or absolute
    sense.
    
    > I really dislike alot of the music that many of you like, and 
    > vice versa.
    
    Hey... well I personally think your "one note solo" SUCKED!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    I could've played a better note!
    
    ;-)
    
    	db 
    	"the db windbag band"

    >>    That has been my solid experience: Non-metallers, PARTICULARLY R&B
    >>    types, are noticeably more prone to offering the kind of absolute,
    >>    judgemental statements we've seen in here about other kinds of music
    >>    (rap, HM, shred, prog, etc) than HMers.
    
    >Ah, ummm... isn't that an absolute, judgemental statement? Hmmmm?
    
    It is an absolute statement of my experience.  
    
    Bob, do you put a statement like 
    
    	"It is absolutely true that in my experience R&Bes have been
    	 more prone to..."
    
    in the same category as:
    
    	"It is absolutely true that progressive rock is self-indulgent"
    
    ???

    Bob, che pasa <GGG> and <g>?
    

    Y'know, I'm going to stop trying to convince anyone of that.
    
    I think the substantiating evidence in here, in MUSIC, and in
    HEAVY_METAL is overwhelming.   The fact that both inside and DIGITAL
    and on the USENET, HMers created separate groups to avoid the various
    and seemingly automatic "blues gospels" should tell you something, but
    apparently it does not.
    
    	db

    >I think the only time it bothers me is when people actually BELIEVE
    >some of the stuff they claim is "true" in any axiomatic or absolute
    >sense.
    
    This is a significant reason that there are so many replies in this
    note.  Stuff 'bothers' someone and thus, the need to defend or explain,
    or argue or slam.  To have true peace, Weedhopper, you must rise to new
    heights of true "don't give a sh*t" internal attitude....I personally,
    am too busy working, parenting, husbanding, playing my guitars and with my
    motorcycles to waste any energy worrying about defending my favorite
    music.
    
    8*)
    
    >>Hey... well I personally think your "one note solo" SUCKED!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    That remark is not supposed to bother me, besides, I played it for Fred, 
    not YOU!
    
    :*}
    
    
    dawg
    

    Someone please press the halt switch.. methinks this topic is caught
    in an infinite loop...

    >> Someone please press the halt switch.. methinks this topic is caught
    >> in an infinite loop...
    
    C'mon!  This is pure entertainment!  In fact, I may go find a node and
    start my *own* notes conference for bloozers and southern rockers.  I
    can't deal with db not liking my solos.....I'm outa here!
    
    :)

    RE: Claptons cover of Stone Free
    
    Haven't heard it...  And probably won't as I don't listen to the
    radio much and am too broke to buy CD's that I WANT, let alone a 
    Clapton CD.  Besides, Hendrix did a reasonable job on that particular 
    toon, and I have that version.  If I wanna hear a cover, I'd play it
    myself.  :=)
    
    Anyone heard Metallicas cover of Queens 'Stone Cold Crazy' ??
    Anyone heard MegaDeths cover of Nancy Sinatras "The Boots We Made For
    Walkin'??"
    
    

    >>RE: Claptons cover of Stone Free
    
    Coop,
    
    you'd like it; it's very un-Clapton-ish in style.  He almost wails
    away!
    
    I like it, anyway!
    
    dawg

    Clapton wails...In the 90's ??  Izzn't that like "Jumbo Shrimp"?
    :-)  Whats the Aoxymoron??  ;-)  Sorry.  :-)  
    
    Speaking of hitting the HALT Button - Look forward to my note in
    Moderator Issues...                           
    :-)
    
    jc (Who 

>    C'mon!  This is pure entertainment!  In fact, I may go find a node and
>    start my *own* notes conference for bloozers and southern rockers.  I
>    can't deal with db not liking my solos.....I'm outa here!
    
    Dude...there *is* a blues conference.  It's called AFTER_HOURS.  Last I
    knew, Alan Starr was moderating it.
    
>    >>RE: Claptons cover of Stone Free
>    
>    you'd like it; it's very un-Clapton-ish in style.  He almost wails
>    away!
    
    I agree that it's very uncharacteristic of Clapton.  I heard the last
    half of it on the radio the other day and thought it was a Hendrix
    version I hadn't heard.  Doesn't sound like Clapton at all to me.
    
    So...yeah, you might like it.  ;^)
    
    gh

    
    	I suppose I'm pretty defensive about The Blues, though I don't
    think I actively attack HM/shredders/Prog Rock. But you should
    understand that I'm coming from the "other side"... when I was
    playing in high school, all the guys I played with were into Rush,
    Eddie Van Halen, etc, and thought I was nuts thinking BB King was
    the greatest guitarist I ever heard. When I worked in the record
    store, I had young guys coming in all the time buying Yngwie records
    and commenting negatively on ALL the albums we'd play that weren't
    metal. I had a roommate who, along with all his buddies, thought
    the blues was just and old fossil. This was the attitude of most 
    (I said MOST, not all) of the musicians you could classify as shredders 
    that I've worked with over the years. It wasn't until I came to Digital 
    that I saw shredders on the "defense" rather than the "offense". 
    
    	Though I don't listen to much "true" metal these days, I do
    consider myself somewhat of a fan, and if it weren't for the proto-type
    metal bands like Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Kiss, etc., I never would have
    picked up a guitar in the first place. 
    
    	It does seem that HM & shredding, as well as Rap and miscellaneous
    other genres get stomped on. I think it sucks that Metal fans have to
    go off & create their own conference because they aren't cut any slack
    in other notes. But I don't care for the notion that poor metalheads
    and prog-rockers are always RodneyKing'd by mean-spirited, stick-in-
    the-mud Bloozers, 'cause I've been ReginaldDehenny'd by puffheads
    before.
    
    
    Brad
    

    >Dude...there *is* a blues conference.  It's called AFTER_HOURS.  Last I
    >knew, Alan Starr was moderating it.
    
    
    uhhhh, I knew that!  (wow, Aqualung, a moderator! What a country!)
    
    RE: -1
    
    Blooz guys are too simple minded to think up a complicated plot like
    starting another conference to avoid abuse.  They're into boring and
    repetitive music and would never be creative enough to pull off an
    exodus.  I guess the puffheads are just stuck with 'em.
    
    8*)
    

re: .361

>>    C'mon!  This is pure entertainment!  In fact, I may go find a node and
>>    start my *own* notes conference for bloozers and southern rockers.  I
>>    can't deal with db not liking my solos.....I'm outa here!
>    
>    Dude...there *is* a blues conference.  It's called AFTER_HOURS.  Last I
>    knew, Alan Starr was moderating it.

Well, yes it's a blues conference, but a southern rocker type might not
feel that at home there unless they were into SR's blues roots in a big way.
AFTER_HOURS generally only gets into "blues-rock" on an occasional
peripheral (is that redundant?) basis.

-Hal

    FWIW - Alan moderates several conferences, and is an EXCELLENT 
    Moderator!!
    
    jc

    re: -1
    
    You're right Hal.  What we'll need is a notes conference
    that adresses blues music, while extending 
    into rock, southern rock, progressive, metal, thrash, pop, jazz,
    fusion, grunge, classic, etc......but wait, that's what we have today!
    ARRRGHH! It's like Charlton Heston at the end of Planet of the Apes
    when he discovers the Statue of Liberty.......
    
    8)

    >FWIW - Alan moderates several conferences, and is an EXCELLENT
    >Moderator!!
    
    he's also a great singer, and quite an aspiring "little girl's man"!
    
    8*0

    Waitaminnit...Alan moderates the blues conf, the HM conf, does he
    moderate the rap and grindcore conferences too?
    
    							Brian 

    I suspect there are really SEVERAL Alan Starrs!
    

    >>I suspect there are really SEVERAL Alan Starrs!

    ...and his (their?) theme song is a heavy metal version of Maurice 
    Chevalier's "Thank Heaven For Little Girls".
    
    Dave_glad_he_has_a_son

    It's a conspiracy I tell ya! A concerted effort to drive me over the
    edge and turn me into a raving madman! A total idiot! A screaming 
    lunatic! A drummer!!!
    
    At DECUS last week I learned a blues compilation CD had been released
    by none other than |d|i|g|i|t|a|l|. Yes, right there on the jewel box
    was the maroon logo. Entitled something like "A Cure For The PC Network
    Blues", the disk is put out by the Pathworks people and contains about
    13 trax. I heard it, and sonically it's real nice. All the recordings
    are new, not scratchy copies of old blues masters...
    
    Edd

    RE: -1
    
    Coulda been worse......
    
    Coulda been a 'kuuuuntry' compilation!
    
    "My dawg ate my software, and my wife left me and took my truck and my
    Vax 9000, and I'm too drunk to care......"
    
    :*}
    
    

    "Let's get drunk and fsck..."
    
    Edd

    Could we take this discussion off-line??
    
    Please....

        >-< Not fun anymore... >-
    
        >Could we take this discussion off-line??
    
        >Please....
    
    
    Buck,
    
    yer crackin' me up........
    
    :*}
                                

    I thought of Edd and this note last night. On my drive hime I was
    listening to WFCR, NPR affiliate, Amherst MA, which does a jazz show
    from 6:30 to 8:00 every night. Last night they did a whole hour of
    Christmas blues tunes. I'm not talking jazzy blues. I'm talking delta
    and chicago blues. It seems that nearly every one of these blues players
    at one time or another recorded a tune with a referrence to Christmas or
    Santa. I was quite amazed.

    But I couldn't help but snicker at the thought of someone like Edd
    tuning in to hear jazz and hearing this program. (Although jazz fans I
    know also like to listen to blues.)

    --Ron

    Better get someone to add "Santa" and "Christmas" to the source code
    for blues.c  8^)  8^)
    
    						Charles Brown

    My bedroom stereo defaults to WGBH so that I can go to sleep listening
    to jazz, and wake up to classical.
    
    Except on Friday and Saturday. That's when Mai Cramer (is she still a
    Digit?) does her "Blues After Hours" show. Too lazy to change the
    station, I listen to the show.
    
    It's not bad, I mean, it's not like I stay awake wondering what the
    next chord is or anything...
    
    Edd

    
    
    	I woke up this morning, and my woman was dead.
    	I said I woke up this morning, and my woman was dead.
    	Reindeer came down the chimney.........and stepped on her head.
    
    
    
    (I hear a comic do this once)
    
    P.K.

    P.K.
    
    I love it.  Thanks, that makes being in here today (at work) worth it.
    
    ho, ho, ho
    Al
    

    re: .380
    
    Yeah, that's hilarious.
    
    But the real Christmas blues come from when you're supposed to have 
    your entire project finished by noon and it's not done at 4 PM and
    it'll be another hour and now we've missed another deadline so it's
    into next week and who knows maybe 1994 but what's another year down
    the tubes and I'm just trying to get the hell out of here.
    
    %^(
    
    Have a great holiday, everyone!  Hope you all get that new toy.
    
    Dave

    Q: What was the epitaph on the blues players gravestone?
    A: "I didn't wake up this morning..."
    

    All right, now where were we before I was so rudely interupted?
    
    Edd (just dropped into say hello while the real owner of this account
         looks over his shoulder...)

    We cut a deal Edd,  I'll stop ragging on the blues if "they"
    officially recognize the right of musicians to write songs other than
    the blues song and not be called "pretentious".
    
    	db

    ...and then that pretentious git Steve Morse butted in and said that
    Eric Clapton taught him everything he ever knew, and we all had a good
    laugh ;-)
    
    Dom

    > You've sure missed a lot...
    
    > ...and then that pretentious git Steve Morse butted in and said that
    > Eric Clapton taught him everything he ever knew, and we all had a
    > good laugh ;-)
    
    Yes, I certainly got a good laugh out of that.
    
    	db

    Hey, isn't Steve Morse the guy who writes for some local New England
    newspaper? You mean he plays guitar too?
    
    Must be a hobby I guess...
    
    ;^)
    
    

    >Hey, isn't Steve Morse the guy who writes for some local New England
    >newspaper? You mean he plays guitar too?
    
    >Must be a hobby I guess...
    
    Seems to be the in-thing. I wonder if he knows that Bill Clinton also
    plays the sax and Woody Allen also plays the clarinet? ;-)
    
    Dom

    Steven King also plays guitar and has a band that has played
    Night stage in Boston as well as other gigs. My sister (a 
    hugh SK fan) traveled to Maine to see his band about a year
    ago.
    
    Mark 

    
    	The Rock Bottom Remainders.
    
    	Don't remember who else is in the band besides Dave Barry.
    

    Novelist Amy Tan.  I think she wrote "The Joy Luck Club"
    

    Another guitar-playing novelist is Ken Follett. Don't know where he
    finds the time myself ;-)
    
    Dom

    And what about John McEnroe and Alexi Lalas?
    
    Dom
    
    P.S. Let's see how many of you American noters know who Alexi 
    Lalas is ;-)
    
    

    
    Alexi Lalas...World Cup soccer player with flaming red hair.
    
    	=8-)

    >Alexi Lalas...World Cup soccer player with flaming red hair.
    
    Well done indeed! The *captain* of the U.S. national team, if I'm not
    much mistaken...
    
    Dom

    From the "Groundwire" section of the 12/95 "Guitar" magazine:
    
    	Guitarist and Hall & Oates pal G.E. Smith has finally been
    	replaced as leader of the Saturday Night Live Band.  While 
    	NBC TV wouldn't give us a specific reason for the parting of
    	ways, there are claims that Smith's constant mugging and
    	refusal to expand his repertoire beyond blues leftovers were
    	instrumental to his exit.
    	
    

    
    So like, uh, who did he mug?
    

    
    	Shredders, of course!!
    

    IMHO he milked SNL for all it was worth. I'm sure his musical career
    has benefited greatly from his stint on the show. He was a virtual
    unknown before this gig.

I've seen G.E. Smith written up in not a few rags about his facial expreessions
during his playing. I noticed that he had different expressions for different
guitars and tempos, e.g., the slide guitar face vs. the Gibson face vs. the
Telecaster face, or the slow-&-soulful vs. the hot-n-sassy jazzy face. Most of
the time it was the only way I could tell he was playing something different.

    that's a shame. He was probably the only reason the show's been
    worth watching in the past 10 years. They'll probably replace
    him with Blues Saraceno or some other vanilla young turk player.

    
    Who supplied his guitars? 
    
    JP

    
    I think he was interesting to listen to but then I realised he never
    played anything but old blues stuff.Then I just tuned out his music
    and checked out his guitars.It got monotomous listening to old blues
    music all the time.
    
    
    							Ian

    
    >worth watching in the past 10 years. They'll probably replace
    >him with Blues Saraceno or some other vanilla young turk player.
    
    	Wow, I might even START watching the show if that's the case.
    

    Since SNL is shot in NYC, GE has access to dozens of differant music
    stores, and is well known in the business. I wouldn't be surprised if
    he had an expense account with an annual allowance for buying new and
    classy instruments to use on the show. His guitar collection has been
    a big attraction on the show. 
    
    A friend of mine was in NYC last year and bumped into GE in a small
    music store in the village. 
    
    Mark

    I thought G.E Smith had crappy tone!

    I always thought G.E. Smith had exquisite tone. I liked his 
    playing on SNL so much I bought a tape he put out a few years
    ago. I ended up listeniing to the tape once; I wasn't very 
    impressed.

    Didn't he (G.E.) do a tour with Dylan? 
    
    Dave
    

    >  They'll probably replace him with Blues Saraceno or some other 
    >  vanilla young turk player.
    
    Well, if the idea was to get rid of "leftover blues" we know it WON'T
    be Eric Clapton.
    
    ;-)
    

    >Well, if the idea was to get rid of "leftover blues" we know it WON'T
    >be Eric Clapton.
    
    And there goes his big chance to get up with the G.E. Smiths of this
    world. Can you say "career blow"? ;-) 
    
    Dom       

re:                      <<< Note 2845.409 by GAVEL::DAGG >>>
>                           -< what else did he do? >-
>
>    Didn't he (G.E.) do a tour with Dylan? 

Yes, I beleive he did.  He also played guitar for Hall and Oates.

adam

    G.E. Smith may be a good guitar player, but it really bugged me
    how he always hogged the camera.  I remember a time when Bela Fleck 
    was a musical guest, and G.E. stood in front of Bela, (facing
    the camera), and of course hogged the whole picture.  I couldn't
    even see what Bela was doing.  

    Are you suggesting that he was "self-indulgent"?

    >Are you suggesting that he was "self-indulgent"?
    
    Naah, he just took the law into his own hands and stopped Bela FLeck
    from being self-indulgent ;-)
    
    Dom

    Well, I hadn't heard of the Bela Fleck thing before.
    
    And being that Bela is rapidly moving up to "god status" for me,
    it's all the more reason to say "good bye and good riddance".
    
    	db
    
    p.s. Was Bela Fleck given ANY chance to shine when he was on SNL
    	 or was it more just like G.E. Smith saying "Hey... I'm so cool
         that I can even get Bela Fleck to play behind me"?

    IMHO  GE was a lot like Brandon Marsalis when he fronted the 
    Tonight Show Band. Brandon did not have the type of personality
    to be a front man on a TV variety show. He was way too stuffy.
    The tonight show is better off without Brandon IMHO. Kevin
    Eubanks has much better stage presence and has a sense of humour,
    something sorely needed.
    
    GE was the same as Brandon. Never cracked a smile. Always mugging,
    never bothered to introduce the guest musicians, never willing to
    share the spotlight with anyone else. To sum it up, he has a 
    BAD ATTITUDE (Badittude tm)
    
    Mark
     

>    p.s. Was Bela Fleck given ANY chance to shine when he was on SNL
>         or was it more just like G.E. Smith saying "Hey... I'm so cool
>         that I can even get Bela Fleck to play behind me"?

More like option B, as I recall.  Unfortunately.

Paul

    >          <<< Note 2845.414 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "General MIDI" >>>
    >                                   -< ;-) >-
    >
    >    Are you suggesting that he was "self-indulgent"?
    
    
    	Naw...  just a camera hog!
    
    

    aw, you guyz are too hard on poor old GE.  The analogy to the Tonight
    Show doesn't really fit.  There, "comic banter" with the bandleader is
    part of the format.  That was never the case for SNL, in any of it's
    incarnations and for any of the previous bandleaders.
    
    On SNL, the band is basically a glorified, slightly more visible
    orchestra pit.  I always thought it was kinda cool the way big name
    guests would drop in and just play; no publicity, no need to be
    featured, just sittin in with the band.
    
    I think the reason the reason everyone rags on GE so much must be cause
    they're jealous of his good looks.
    

    Gee Rik,  I disagree.
    
    I don't think we are at all too hard on GE.   He was CLEARLY a camera hog,
    and he clearly was absolutely STUCK in one genre of playing.   I posted
    that article not only to pull the chains of bluesers but also as a
    statement of relief that I wasn't the only one who felt that the guy
    HAD TO GO.   The article stated EXACTLY my complaint against the guy.
    
    And actually I thought it SUCKED that big name guests would drop in and
    just play without publicity because there'd be no way for the fans
    to FIND OUT about it.   I'd have loved to have seen Bela Fleck even
    if only for the brief glimpses when GE leaned one way long enough
    for you to see him on camera.
    
    Regarding the new guy on the Tonite show.... well... I dunno....
    I was surprised by what Mark said about him.   To me he seems like he's
    about as "second banana" as you can get.   It almost seems insulting
    at times.   He just comes across as this ultra-laid back guy with not
    much to say (and his "laugh track" seems both insincere and mixed
    WAY too high).
    
    I liked the way Brandon quiped with Leno.   Apparently they may not
    have gotten along all that well, but he seemed more of an "equal" and
    the chemistry added something.
    
    I guess I'm just not a fan of second-bananas in general.   Didn't like
    Ed McMahon, and while I like the skits that this "Andy" guy does with
    Conan O'Brien, I find the dialogue he and Conan do right after the band
    plays more than a bit "forced".   
    
    My favorite talk show was Arsenio: great musical guests, probably the
    best band in that format although the bandleader had an ego that may
    have exceeded GE Smith's, at least it didn't get shown on camera
    (interviews is another story).   I've already forgotten his name.
    
    Oh wait... this is the GUITAR notesfile... thought it was "TELEVISION".
    A thousand pardons...
    
    	db

    
        >        <<< Note 2845.421 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "General MIDI" >>>
        >                                    -< ;-) >-
        >    I don't think we are at all too hard on GE.   He was CLEARLY a
        >   camera hog, and he clearly was absolutely STUCK in one genre of
        >   playing. I posted that article not only to pull the chains of
        >   bluesers but also as a statement of relief that I wasn't the
    	>   only one who felt that the guy HAD TO GO.
    
        
    	In defense of GE... perhaps he just happen to be in his spot and the 
    	cameraman didn't feel like moving the shot. While GE *may* have 
    	wanted to be "out front", the cameraman "could" have moved the shot
    	*if* the technical director of the show wanted him to. So the expression
        "CLEARLY a camera hog" may not be accurate since the technical director
    	could have moved the shot. Think about it, but not too much. It's not
    	worth debating nor do I have the time on my hands to do so. I still 
    	didn't like GE's tone, BUT that's just my personal taste. 
    	
    	One thing I believe we can ALL agree with is that *he* had a great gig.
    
        As for "pulling the chains of bluesers"...  let's give it a rest
    	since it got old a long time ago.
    
    
    	Peace,
              G.E. Smith

    ...and I think you guys mean *Branford* Marsalis, not Brandon...
    
    Rodney

    Anyone who thinks that blues must be done in A or E should check
    out the following file which PROVES that you CAN write blues in
    C as well:
    
    		kdx200::download:blues.c
    
    	db

    db,
    
    FWIW,  Freddie King certainly never thought the blues had to be done
    only in  A or E.  He used just about every key available, and sometimes
    changed key in the course of a song.
    
    								John

re: .425

>    FWIW,  Freddie King certainly never thought the blues had to be done
>    only in  A or E.  He used just about every key available, and sometimes
>    changed key in the course of a song.
    
John:

Db's just messing with you.  Please don't encourage him, we really don't
need another occurrence of the blues wars.

-Hal

    Hal,
    
    I wrote that reply at the end of a *very* long, trying day and db's
    little joke sailed right over my head.  Shows I shouldn't reply to
    notes when I'm tired.
    
    And you're right, I don't really want to get another blues vs. shred
    war going.
    
    
    							John
    

    I was not looking to pull anyone's chain by posting that.
    
    In fact, it never even OCCURRED to me that any blues folks might be
    offended by that.  
    
    A thousand pardons,
    
    	Blind Chitlin' Blickstein

    *I* wasn't offended, and I'm definitely a blues person.
    
    
    							John

    .411 Dom,
    
    Hate to burst your bubble, but Clapton DID play with Smith's band
    on SNL.  Clapton appeared as musical guest in October '94 as he
    was kicking off his FTC tour.  At the end of the show, Clapton
    joined Smith and the SNL band for the SNL closing theme.  Other
    guests mugged up front of the cameras, EC went back and stood with
    the band.
    
    

    I have always been fascinated with the "Blues Fan Phenomena". There
    seems to be "Blues Societies" or clubs all over the country. Here in
    Charlotte, NC, they meet every Monday night to listen to a few hours of
    I-IV-V and go crazy. 
    
    I've played bass for years and I like playing blues as a bassist because 
    I can watch the crowd, the other players, and enjoy the party. Sure, 
    as an intellectual excersize it could be pretty boring. Especially for
    a bassist. But I've always found it interesting that the crowd, in
    blues club, always keeps coming back for more. 
    
    Over the past couple of years I've read most of this string a few
    times. Lots of good insight and interesting commentary. Today at lunch,
    it finally hit me. It's what I call the "Big Mac Factor". It is the
    basic human characteristic of desiring what is familiar. Why is
    MacDonalds so busy at lunch, when the independant restaurant next door
    is only half as busy? It ain't the food, that's for sure! It is the
    familiarity ... the consistant state of uniformity - they always know
    what they are gonna get. Blues fans seem to find comfort in the old
    familiar I-IV-V ... they know what is is and where it's going ... the
    only pleasant surprise is when some one plays it especially well. Want
    to empty a blues club on open stage night? Play something that deviates
    too far from the familiar ... thay all go outside in a hurry.

>    Over the past couple of years I've read most of this string a few
>    times. Lots of good insight and interesting commentary. Today at lunch,
>    it finally hit me. It's what I call the "Big Mac Factor". It is the
>    basic human characteristic of desiring what is familiar. Why is
>    MacDonalds so busy at lunch, when the independant restaurant next door
>    is only half as busy? It ain't the food, that's for sure! It is the
>    familiarity ... the consistant state of uniformity - they always know
>    what they are gonna get. 
    
    Interesting.
    
    There's a definite theoretical element as to why so many guitarists
    are comfortable with I-IV-V and pentatonic/bluesy scales.
    
    With I-IV-V and pentatonic scales, the entire concept of modality
    pretty much goes away: "One mode fits all".   That is, (unlike most
    other forms of music) the same  mode/scale works perfectly over all the
    chord changes.
    
    Thus, you learn that ONE mode and instantaneously you can play pretty
    well over blues, R&B, basic rock, blues-rock, etc.
    
    That's one of the reasons why I *love* to hear guys like Larry Carlton
    play the blues.   He often imposes modalities either in his soloing
    or by substitution chords that make his hybrid version of the blues
    tunes for more interesting to my blues-worn ears.
    
    Of course, once you take it to a certain point, as far as I'm concerned
    it's no more "blues" than "fusion" is "rock".
    
    For that reason, Tom D and I will probably never agree on whether
    "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat" can really be classified as a "blues" tune.
    It starts out with a very basic pentatonic feel (the intro is even
    a pentatonic-101 riff) but the chord substitutions put the tune into
    another space.
    
    I think another great example is Larry Carlton's "It Was Only
    Yesterday".
    
    Anyway, if you've ever wondered why you may feel you have such a
    "feel" for the blues, and why it seems to come to you more naturally,
    that could be why.  
    
    	db - who decided long ago that he'd die of boredom and shame
    	     if he couldn't break out of the "pentatonic guitarist" mode

    I was ALMOST able to keep myself from replying to .431 :-)
    
    I view the 1-4-5 framework of the blues as a framework or a set
    of rules. Other indigenous types of music such as flamenco also
    are grounded in sets of rules. The art of blues playing is the 
    art of playing within this set of rules. The rules are familiar
    to everyone, and accomplished players will have developed unique
    voices for improvising within the rules (and hackers will beat
    the same tired licks to death). DUke Robillard is a good example.
    
    - Dave

    Very true. There are rules to govern almost any form of music to one
    extent or another. Without them, what would give a piece an identifying
    structure to lend it member ship to a specific genre? The traditional
    structure for the blues is pretty specific ... more so than most I
    would think. There is music that defies pigeon holeing, too I suppose.
    Primus, perhaps?
    
    However, my hops induced observations were mainly related to fans,
    rather than musicians, most of whom don't know pentatonic from
    Pennsylvania. Come to think of it, some musicians I've played with
    didn't either. Oh well ....

    This seems about as appropriate a place as any for this.  From Ron
    Burati, re the new Boz Scaggs release:
    

    To me, Come On Home is the same kind of album as Mama U-Sepa by Steve
    Ferguson in that I'm having trouble getting through all the tracks
    because I keep hitting the back index button on the player to repeat the
    tracks. This album has such a hip groove to it. He states in the liner
    that this is the R&B album that he's always wanted to make. Not only do
    I think he achieved his goal but I think that this is the R&B album that
    Clapton always wanted to make too! And Jimmy Vaughn!

    Great material. Great players: Kelter and Faatar taking turns on drums,
    Bobby Hutch Hutchison here and there on bass, several different Hammond
    players, really subtle and sweet horn arrangements from Memphis that are
    reminiscent of Otis Redding, the Electric Flag or Butterfield's band
    from about 1970.

    Boz handles all guitar chores and his voice and chops have never sounded
    better. He sounds completely relaxed in this context, like he was put on
    earth to do these somes. There's a Jimmy Reeves cut (Found Love maybe)
    that puts one right back into the coolest tracks of Children of the
    Future and Sailor. It makes glaringly clear again who was responsible
    for the best stuff on those two albums.

    I like that tune that's on the radio (Down the Drain?). Boz 
    must be using a 335; excellent tone, great blues from the
    old school. I've got to get this one.
    
    - Dave