Conference napalm::guitar

re: .0

Gack!  You want to get rid of a '64 Super Reverb for a bunch of
MIDI-Rack-Puke stuff?!!!  Can I have the Super Reverb when you're done?
:-) :-) :-)

Seriously, why don't you try ditching the other stomp boxes and get
an old Ibanez Tube Screamer to go with the Super?  It'll probably
get you a lot better SRV-type distortion then what you are proposing
(and cost a lot less, too!).

-Hal

	Keep the Super Reverb, and buy the amp in note 2.2577 :^).

	Screaming distortion or clean or anywhere in between.  In a 
	nice small, easy to manage package.  

	L

    Well, yew better git rid of that old junk and git yerself a
    Try-ack-sis.  It's the ultimate thang, yew'll have distortion for daze!
    

    RE .0:
    With all those "STRATEGIES", I'm surprised you didn't mention the
    Strategy 500 by Mesa Boogie. 
    
    I'm still tryin to talk Coop into selling me his Tri-Axis for $300, so
    I doubt you'll find one in your price range. 
    
    Basically, the first decision you have to make is whether to use the
    Super (*keeping* it is a different decision). The limitation of it is
    its size & the fact that it's mono. Don't worry about the "CLEAN" bit,
    because you'll have to solve that problem when you get your MRP card. 
    The so/so stomp boxes are your biggest limitation right now. 
    
    It sounds like you really only need a nice distortion, & maybe a multi
    EFX w/delay & chorus minimum. You could retrofit an EFX loop into the
    Super, but some people may "Gaak" at this idea. If you're committed to
    stereo, seriously consider that Marshall in 2.2575 (or thereabouts), &
    then buy a Boogie 2:90 Simulclass anyway. 
    
    If you even think about playing SRV once in a while, a Tri-Axis is
    overkill. 
    
    BTW, I have one of those Ibanez Tube Screamer gadgets for sale if
    you decide not to go with the Tri-Axis.
    
    Paul 

    The Super only sounds squeaky-clean?  How far do you turn it up?
    
    Dave

    
    One word of advice .... MARSHALL, there is no substitute!!
    
    Two words of advice.... DOD -> JUNK
    
    /Billy_K
    

re: .1  NO, you can't have the Super.
	Tube Screamer, huh?  I'll check it out...

re: .2  I actually got some mail off line with the same suggestion.  I'll
        need to ponder that one a while.  The note also recommended the
	Tube Screamer (that's two votes).

re: .3  You didn't ask, but No, you can't have the Super either :')

re: .4  "If you're committed to stereo, seriously consider that Marshall..."
	is the Marshall combo stereo?  Tube Screamer for sale... (that's
	three votes).  What kind of multieffects unit would you recommend?

re: .5  I wouldn't say "squeeky clean", rather warm and clean.  I tend to
	practice with the volume around 3.  I do get more distortion when
 	I use my Gibson due to the higher output, but I'm really much more
	of a single coil kinda guy :').  Clearly there is a relationship
	between volume and distortion, but I am somewhat constrained by
	playing in my basement as opposed to playing in a club.

re: .6	So you don't want to buy my DOD stomp boxes :')

I had the chance to spend an hour with the QuadraVerb GT and a Zoom 9030
yesterday.  Of the two, I found the QV's presets to be more pleasing by 
far.  All of the Zoom patches seemed harsh - almost brittle.  The salesman
attributed that to a ring modulator.... Whatever.  All I know is that the QV
for less money seemed better to my ear.

Other boxes on my list to try are the ART SGX-T2, the BOSS SE-70 (if I can
find one in a store), and maybe some of the KORG pedals (A5/A4).  Any other
suggestions?

Also, I noticed that someone had a Roland GP-8 with foot controller for $400
in the Want Advertiser.  I know this was highly regarded a few years ago.
How does it stack up to today's gear?

Again - many thanks for the input.

(hmmmmm.... a Marshall..... hmmmmmmmmmm.....)

    
    If you plan to go for the Ibanez Tubescreamer, you might want to look
    at their PT5 multi FX box -- it is alleged to have a tubescreamer
    "inside." And it was pretty cheap -- I got it for about $280 at
    Daddy's.
    
    FX include 3 chorus flavors, 2 flanger flavors, auto-wah, compression,
    phaser, 3-level EQ, delay/reverb, and noise reduction, all with 
    parameters settings and with up to 5 effects chainable at one time.
    
    Note that while it meets my needs I'm not one of those "serious"
    guitarists you hear so much about...
    
    JP
    
     

    FYI, while you're pondering all that MRP stuff, don't forget that if
    you want to change programs in real time (playing vs. recording),
    you'll need a MIDI foot controller. They don't affect the sound, but
    play with several to find one that "feels right to you".
    
    I've seen situations where Super Reverb Amps were used with 2 different
    types of speakers (a pair of JBL's & a pair of Jensens) & 2 mics so
    that the sound man has control of the tone from out front. You also can
    try jumping channels with a spare guitar cord to fatten up your sound a
    little.
    
    Paul

>    that the sound man has control of the tone from out front. You also can
>    try jumping channels with a spare guitar cord to fatten up your sound a
>    little.
    
     Paul,

     I'm not sure this will work that well. The vibrato channel has
     one more gain stage than the normal channel and the signal is
     inverted at the point where the two channels are mixed. I imagine
     there would be some cancellation. This isn't the case in Marshall
     amps, or all Fender amps, just the combos w/vibrato.

     Neal

    RE -1:
    Thanks for the correction.
    It was a Super 6 that he was using which I believe is a Twin Reverb
    amp design with a funny output XFMR & 6 10's. I've done it myself with
    Bassmans, Bandmasters, Showmans, & Twins, & it seems to work OK on all
    of these. If what you say is true, & I wouldn't doubt it considering
    the general "weirdness" of the Super Reverb, then it may not give the
    desired result. 
    
    Nice catch !
    Paul  

     You're right about the Super 6 being like a Twin Reverb. The
     transformer is the same as the Twin, though. The six 8� spkrs
     are wired series/parallel for ~4.67�, which Fender must have
     figured was close enough. Both these amps have that extra gain
     stage in the Vibrato channel, and, to correct myself, it exists
     in all combo amps with *reverb*, and all piggy back models with
     reverb like the Bandmaster Reverb, (indentical to the Super Reverb)
     and the Dual Showman Reverb (indentical to the Twin Reverb).

     Neal-FenderFreak

    RE -1:
    Now I'm completely confused. 
    
    >> it exists in all combo amps with *reverb*, and 
    >> all piggy back models with reverb 
    >> like the Bandmaster Reverb, (indentical to the Super Reverb) and 
    >> the Dual Showman Reverb (indentical to the Twin Reverb).
    
    ...or maybe only partly confused. "it" means the "extra" gain stage, I
    guess, so does that mean that the Bandmaster, Bassman, & Showman (non
    reverb) don't have it. The Dual Showman I used was a Reverb model, but
    I've also used BandmasterS, & Bassmans without reverb. Is there an
    extra stage (or one less) going from the "Pre CBS" ones to "blue face"?
    
    How does the Super Reverb fit in to all this ?
    
    >> The transformer is the same as the Twin, though. The six 8� spkrs
    >> are wired series/parallel for ~4.67�, which Fender must have
    >> figured was close enough.
    
    That probably partially accounts for the fact that a Twin will eat a
    Super 6 alive !
    
    Paul

     Yes, "it" means the "extra" gain stage...in the reverb channel only.
     The non-reverb Bandmaster, Showman, and Dual Showman don't have it.
     The Bassman is another story. It has the extra gain stage, but *both*
     channels are mixed through it, on models from about '65 to the mid 70's.
     There are some earlier models and models after this period where this
     isn't true.

     >Is there an
     >extra stage (or one less) going from the "Pre CBS" ones to "blue face"?
    
     No, it's only in all reverb models and some Bassman models. There really
     isn't that much difference in basic design between 7/63, when the
     blackface models, that you are referring to, (there was an earlier
     blackface period) appeared, and the silverface models of the 70's. A few
     components were added and values changed. Somewhere in the mid-to-late
     70's, we were blessed with the 135 watt Twin Reverb, the Super Six, a 180
     watt something-or-other, and a few other forgettable models. The Tube Amp
     Book by Aspen Pittman documents this progression and subsequent sacrilege
     in schematic form. I have in front of me as I type and highly recommend it.

     >How does the Super Reverb fit in to all this ?

     It was born in 1963 when Fender revamped its entire line and the
     era of reverb amps came about. The Super became the Super Reverb,
     the Deluxe became the Deluxe Reverb, the Twin became the Twin Reverb, etc.
     In 1969, the Bandmaster Reverb, and the Dual Showman Reverb arrived. They
     are identical to the Super Reverb (except for the output xfmr) and the
     Twin Reverb respectively...just no spkrs. Also at this time, the
     Bandmaster Reverb was used for the Pro Reverb, and the Vibrolux dis-
     continued. So now all 50W reverb heads and combos had a middle control
     on the Vibrato channel, which was the characteristic that originally
     made the Super Reverb so unique. There was no difference between the
     Twin Reverb and the Dual Showman Reverb at this time, except for
     cabinetry. Fender seemed to be consolidating their models, but by doing
     so, made them less unique to each other. A matter of economics I would
     imagine.

     >That probably partially accounts for the fact that a Twin will eat a
     >Super 6 alive !
    
     That's somewhat of a generalization. There was a 100 watt Super 6 and
     a 135 watt Super 6, as well as a 100 watt Twin Reverb, and a 135 watt
     Twin Reverb. All at 4 ohms. Some had a master volume, or a push-pull
     master volume. The carnage went on and on. I didn't think it would ever
     stop.

     Neal

    RE -1:
    I've tried (unsuccessfully) to find that book. Is it the one published
    by groove tubes ? Do you have to order it through them ? I've heard
    there's 3 volumes to the series.
    I have a stack of Fender schematics, but there's a lot of overlap as I
    recall.
    What was the tube lineup for the 135 watt Super 6 / Twin (6 6L6's ?) ?
    I've also heard that the components used in the older (black face &
    early blue face) models were different grade or value, even though the
    schematics were the same.
    
    Paul 

     You can get The Tube Amp Book III mail-order through Stewart-MacDonald,
     Musicians' Friend, or Music Emporium musical gear catalogs. Vol I+II
     aren't available anymore. Besides, Vol III has all of I+II and more. 

     >I have a stack of Fender schematics, but there's a lot of overlap as I
     >recall.

     Yeah, like with the Deluxe and the Deluxe Reverb. They're both shown
     in the Fender catalog at the same time. The Super only had 2 spkrs
     until it was reintroduced in '63 as the Super Reverb with 4 spkrs
     which is really more like the 4 spkr '63 Concert Amp that was available
     at the same time.
     
     >What was the tube lineup for the 135 watt Super 6 / Twin (6 6L6's ?) ?

     All 100W/135W models have 4-6L6's. The 135W has higher supply voltages.
     All models have 4 ohm outputs except the Vibrosonic which is 8 ohms.
     It's a Twin Reverb with a 15" spkr. The Quad Reverb has 4-16 ohm spkrs.

     >I've also heard that the components used in the older (black face &
     >early blue face) models were different grade or value, even though the
     >schematics were the same.
    
     The values of some of the components in the driver stage (phase-
     inverter) were changed in some models in the 70's, but nothing
     significant was changed in the pre-amp stages. They're really easy
     to change back to the older values if you think it'll make a difference.
     I changed a bunch of stuff in my Bandmaster Reverb head to '63 values
     and it sounds alot more like my '65 Pro Reverb, but not exactly. The
     caps in the Pro get smaller in value over the years and it's brighter
     than the '73 Bandmaster. 

     Neal

Maybe I was just "target-fixated"...

Going against all of the good advice I received here and elsewhere, I kinda
made up my mind that a MRP membership card was my key to guitar nirvana.

Soooo - I drove all over creation playing every guitar processor I could
get my hands on: QuadraVerb GT, Rocktron Chamelion, GSP-21 Legend, ART SGX-T2,
Zoom 9030 - the list goes on.  Finally, in a stupor of processor frenzy, I
bought the QuadraVerb GT (I'll spare you the long rationalization...).  

Took that baby home, plugged in my guitar, ran the output into the Super
Reverb, and (you guessed it) IT SOUNDED LIKE SH*T!

Well gentle readers, you DID warn me.  After much arm wrestling with the
store (they did have a sign that said NO CASH REFUNDS, but the guy had 
promised me that this would sound AWESOME...) I ended up paying one day's 
rental on the gear.  Actually, it was a cheap lesson learned.

Observation:  The Quadraverb actually sounded better running through my PA.
Still, it didn't sound much like I was playing a GUITAR - more like some
smoothed out, tranquilized guitar.  The high-distortion patches sounded like
distorted/tranquilized guitar.  Yecch!

Timing is everything.  Yesterday, a buddy loaned me a Guitar Player from last
year with an article on distortion which interviewed 19 players on how they
get their tone.  With a few exceptions, the answer was turn everything to 10.
Several folks used stomp boxes, notably old Tube Screamers.

Anyway, it was a good lesson learned.

Geoff (sometimes you have to hit me with a brick)

>With a few exceptions, the answer was turn everything to 10.
    
    Ah'm tellin' ya, man... try turning that Super up before you buy
    anything else.  Maybe not 10, but try 6, at least.
    
    Dave (a simple kind of guy)

    ...or try a $40 stomp box.

    I couldn't find the Tube Amp Book in my Musician's Friend catalog. Now
    I'm waiting in a queue at a store that said they were on order.
    
    BTW RE -1:
    
    My Tube Screamer is still available.
    
    Paul 

	Cranking up to 10 is nice if your family and neighbors don't mind the 
	noise.  

        The ideal solution is the Marshall JCM900 amp in 2.?, it's still available.
        ( :^) 
	Mega distortion even at low volumes.  Run a stereo setup with the Fender
	Super, or switch between them with a footpedal.  Only a Marshall will give
	you the true Marshall sound.

	Yeah, it needs a better set of tubes, but it's a kick-a$$ amp.  

	Lv

	

    one solution, which I ended up with, is a "Fender Mender". This
    utilizes the usually un-used "normal" channel as an extra gain stage
    that can be switched in via a footswitch. you can therefore get the
    squeaky-clean Fender reverb sound or the overdriven sound. The 'mender
    unit also has a gain adjust trimmer to allow getting anything from a
    warm overdrive to a (to my ears) distorted high-gain sound.
    
    I've seen the 'mender advertized in recent music (guitar) mags. I got
    lucky and bought a used unit from a noter in this conference about a
    year ago.
    
    No, it didn't turn my Pro Reverb into a Marshall, or even a Twin, but
    it did give me the "warm" sound I wanted.
    
    Another solution in the vein of FX units is the one Fred Abatelli uses
    (I forget the brand/name), but I do recall he gets a killer "Twin"
    sound from it (anong many other good sounds). Fred??
    
    Rgds, Jimi

    RE -1:
    What's a "killer Twin sound" ??? 
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    
    HEAVY
    
    
    
    Paul
    

    > What's a "killer Twin sound" ???
    
    It sure ain't "Nelson".
    
    	db	

    RE: .22
    In order to get that "Killer Twin" sound you need a very heavy amp! ;^)
    
    Seriously, I run my older Strat through a Roland GP-8 processor with just 
    compression. I'll either plug it into my Mesa/Fender 2x12" combination, 
    or use my PV-MX 1x12" combo. Come to think of it...  they are both heavy 
    amps! SEE, THERE IS SOMETHING TO THIS HEAVY AMP THING!!!!    ;^)
    
    Rock on,
    	    Fred

    Somewhere back in the 1920's or thereabouts, G. A. Briggs, a Brittish 
    Acoustical engineer designed a speaker enclosure for an 8" woofer & he 
    wanted it to be as rigid as possible. It turned out that the nicest 
    sounding version of the design was achieved by bricking up his chimney
    & most of the front of the fireplace & using it as the enclosure. 
        
    I believe this is the enclosure that was eventually used as the prototype 
    for the Fender Twin ;-).
    
    Paul 

    > It turned out that the nicest sounding version of the design was
    > achieved by bricking up his chimney & most of the front of the
    > fireplace & using it as the enclosure.
    
    Do NOT try this at home boys and girls!

>    > It turned out that the nicest sounding version of the design was
>    > achieved by bricking up his chimney & most of the front of the
>    > fireplace & using it as the enclosure.
>    
>    Do NOT try this at home boys and girls!
    
    ...or at least put out the fire first.

>    ...or at least put out the fire first.
    
    Unless you're playing hot licks, of course...
    
    Dave

    RE last couple:
    In fact Mr. Briggs had to add a small "pneumatic vent" hole to prevent
    barometric pressure changes from displacing the speaker, so even if you
    were to build this enclosure while the fireplace is burning, once you
    installed the speaker, the oxygen supply would not be sufficient to
    support combustion for very long. Then you could retrofit the vent hole
    & you'd gain the additional advantage of the logs & ashes as padding
    material inside the enclosure.
    
    I think this is why the Fender Twin is an open back type enclosure ;-)
    
    Paul 

In a similar vein, what effects device would you put in the loop of a 
Marshall 4501?

Jim

    Well, this may come as a suprise (considering the source), but I 
    think Marshalls sound best with NO effects at all.
    
    jc

    Alright, who's taken over Coop's tube while he was out?
    
    4501, huh?  I'd leave the efx loop empty and plug up an external
    speaker cab.
    
    Honestly, the only time I've put things in the efx loop of my 4500, it
    didn't sound as good, probably 'cause the effects didn't have enough
    bandwidth or something.  I've had rack mount delays in there a couple
    of times.  I guess it's *ok*...  Personally, I wouldn't bother with
    reverb because I like the sound of the 'verb that Marshall puts in
    these things.  If I needed to, I'd probably go with something like a 
    delay/chorus/flange type unit in the efx loop, a reasonably good
    quality one, like maybe a Lexicon LXP-5.
    
    Greg

    I love lexicons stuff, but I think the user interface for the lxp-%
    units aren't real conducive to live-play.  I think an LXP-15 might be 
    more like it...  But of course, they're more $$ too!
    
    I still maintain that Marshalls sound great without effects...At least
    my old ones did...
    
    jc

    I've used a Roland SDE-3000 EFX machine in Mesa Boogie, Seymour Duncan,
    etc. guitar amps (no Marshalls that I recall) as well as PA & direct
    recording boards, & it's about the only thing anywhere its price range
    that I'd trust. 
    
    The main reason is "headroom". Bandwidth can be a factor too, & that
    annoying "hiss" from most solid state distortion units will make
    everything sound like a big AM car radio if you're not careful, but
    nothing alters the real "voice" of a quality amp like an EFX unit with
    less dynamic range than the amp itself. Marshalls & Boogies especially
    rely on the peculiar characteristics of tube circuits to produce the
    kind of "clean", "punchy" sound that guitarists thrive on. If you stick
    a low-life grunge box in the middle (EFX loop) of one of these babys,
    you run a good chance of making the combined sound come out about $1k
    cheaper sounding than the price tag of the stuff.
    
    Lexicon or any of the high (priced) end studio stuff can probably be 
    trusted in a Marshall, but in general, if you like the sound of your amp, 
    the fewer things you put in the EFX loop, the better.
    
    Paul

I've been a little quiet about where I'm at with my "problem".  Paul's
soul searching in the ADA MP-1 note made me realize that a lot has 
changed in my GTS thrashing.

1) The "an effects processor will solve all my problems - NOT" lesson
has brought me back down to earth.  I don't start salivating everytime
I see anything that can be bolted into a 19" rack.

2) I spent some time with the Super Reverb - radically changing the tone
settings and cranking the daylights out of the volume control.  Yep - you
folks were right - it sounds GREAT turned up to 6 or higher.  My ears 
did eventually stop ringing and the headache has since subsided.  

3) I've done a bit of soul searching about buying a second amp (Marshall
or Mesa/Boogie, of course).  This may well make sense further down the
road, but I have no clue where this is all leading.

4) My current experimentation is back to stomp boxes.   A friend loaned
me one of the original Tube Drivers (back when they ran on 120V and had
a 12AX7).  While the box has its flaws, it really perks up the Super!  
I intend to look closely at the Ibanez Tube Screamer, Hughes & Kettner
TubeMan, and .....

Anyway - that's today's status.  You guys have been a tremendous help.

    If you like the "cranked" amp sound, but don't want the volume, maybe
    you should look into a smaller amp.
    
    You mentioned SRV in your original note.  The Super (with a tube
    screamer) is a a great choice for gig-level volumes, but is a bit
    intense for home.  You might want to consider an old Deluxe Reverb
    or Princeton Reverb to complement your Super.  Both would offer
    a similar sound, but at a lower volume, allowing you to crank the
    amp to where the sound starts to get a little beefy without making
    your ears bleed.  On the real small end, a Fender Champ weighs in
    at 6 watts, and some of them sound pretty good.
    
    Note that the Deluxe and Priceton are still pretty loud, but they will
    not be as loud as the Super.  You'll probably still want a tube
    screamer or other overdrive/distortion unit.   I use a '68 Deluxe
    Reverb with either a Real-tube overdrive or tube screamer.  Another
    nice thing about the Deluxe is that the silver face ones have the same
    circuitry as the black face ones, but at a much lower price (although
    the price seems to be climbing).
    
    Add an A/B switch and you could use both the Super and Deluxe for gigs.
    The Deluxe can be cranked for a nice distorted tone, while the Super 
    can be set for clean...
    
    Jim 

>    If you like the "cranked" amp sound, but don't want the volume, maybe
>    you should look into a smaller amp.

    Good idea, Jim.  Or maybe a power attenuation type device.  I used to
    use a Sholtz PowerSoak with an old Hiwatt combo and cranked it.  It had
    the most righteous distortion tone that way!  Without the PowerSoak, it
    was way too loud for anything short of a stadium show (100wt all tube
    combo).Unfortunately, it was also lacking in flexability 'cause it
    didn't have channel switching...  But it sounded killer!

    Greg

    By George, I think I've got it!
    
    I broke down and bought the Hughes & Kettner TubeMan.  Performance
    Music in Woburn, MA is having a sale on them for $229.  
    
    All I can say is EXCELLENT!  The little beast is 12AX7 based, has four
    drive settings, a three band EQ, midrange boost switch, gain and master
    controls.  On the clean (Jazz) setting, the box adds sparkle and boost
    to the Super Reverb.  On the other extreme, the Rock setting gives a
    range of warm to shreeking distortions.  
    
    What I like best (and what I have come to appreciate through my
    research, GTS tortured sleepless nights, and your help is the warm tube
    tone throughout.  No thin, angular, mechanical distortions here!
    
    The TubeMan also has three outputs: guitar amp which I'm using now,
    power amp which sends line level, and mixer which sends the signal
    through the built in Redbox.  Way cool.
    
    
    Geoff - who's GTS is sated..... for now  :')
    
    

    The "Guitar Amp" output sounds like a neat feature of this thing.
    Normally, you'd use the "Line out" & end up having to set amp volume &
    preamp out controls carefully to get a decent sound, or hack into the
    amp somewhere after the first stage or 2 (yuk !). What does H&K claim
    for a S/N ratio for this preamp ? What kind of control (footswitch
    etc.) does the thing have ? (It may be optional........naah, it's not a
    Boogie !)
    
    Paul 

re. -1

I'll look up the S/N info and let you know.  As far as your foot controller
question - this baby is built as a stomp box (about the size of a double pedal).

For my purposes, I just put it on top of the amp. At the moment, I'm doing
a fair amount of playing with the settings and never have any reason to turn
it off.

Geoff