Conference napalm::guitar

    My rule of thumb for the room empty vs. full is to set up the PA to be
    louder than needed in the empty room (to check for feedback, etc.) then
    turn everything down a bit (subjective!) until the room fills up.  In
    rooms where you play regularly it becomes second nature, in new rooms
    it's always an adventure.
    
    The long cord or wireless is the only real way to hear what the heck it
    sounds like out front while everyone is playing.  Close second is have
    one member go out front and listen while the others play.  Make sure
    *everybody* who will be singing warbles a few crotchets!
    
    It's a poor substitute for a soundman but you can learn to live with
    it.
    
    							Brian

    
    In a few of the clubs that we play in, it just isn't lucrative to 
    add the expense of a soundman. So we do the best we can with running
    the PA from stage. We do a soundcheck by running thru a few tunes
    that are quite different from each other (a hard cruncher, a slow
    burner with lots of backing vocals, etc). We mix the drums first and
    then mix the bass in so that it's in sync with the kick drum. We then 
    balance the guitars at max desired volume and rely on the guitarists 
    to actually use their volume controls to adjust to the dynamics of each 
    particular song (I know, that's a scary concept, but it works out well 
    if the players care more for the sound of the band rather than if they 
    can be heard in the next state!!). We do the same with the vocals. 
    Set them at max desired volume while singing as loud as possible as close 
    as possible to the mic. You then have to rely on the singers to use control
    by backing away from the mic (another scary concept!!). Once everything
    is mixed, you only need to tweek the mains to compensate for a full
    room as the night goes on (a wireless is an absolute MUST for the
    person running the PA from stage!!). As I mentioned, this only works out 
    if the players are mature enough to care about the sound of the band as
    opposed to their own personal glorification. All it takes is one player 
    to turn around and goose his/her volume to trash the whole mix. This leads
    to volume wars that will turn the best band into the garage band
    from hell....
    
    My 2 cents,
    
    Billy_K
           

    The only rule of thumb that I rely on is: "If you stick your thumbs in
    your ears & it's still too loud, then turn it down."
    
    A (pink) noise generator, spectrum analyzer, & 30 band graphic EQ will
    help you get close to a good sound anywhere. When a room fills with
    people, a lot more happens than just straight "absorption". Basically,
    you have to be ready to make further adjustments as the night
    progresses. It's amazing sometimes too how different the mix sounds
    from one spot to another in the same room. Speakers, enclosures, &
    placement of them play a big role here as well. There are books on this
    stuff if you're interested in *understanding* what's involved.
    
    Keep in mind that the relative strengths of different frequencies in
    any hall is likely to be drastically different from in the garage, &
    this can raise hell with your "intricate musical subtlties".
    
    If people complain that it's too loud, they may be responding to
    psychoacoustic phenomena generated by the show or reportoire, in
    addition to the decibel level.
    
    Paul 

    RE: -1
    
    A pink noise generator, SA and EQ are the best tools for a good mix
    (as well as a soundman with a good ear). However, if you're renting PA
    gear and running sound yourself on a tight budget, you're not likely 
    to have access to a noise generator and spectrum analyzer. I've worked 
    with soundmen that have used the "pink" noise generator as well as a "white" nose
    generator. Does anyone know the difference???
    
    Also, if you're too loud, it doesn't matter if you're the best band
    around, you're going to lose business. If the club manager tells
    you you're too loud, turn down the volume, finish the set and then 
    ask if the sound level is OK. Then pump it up a bit for the next set.
    Bring it back up in increments so the manager probably won't notice.
    A rule of thumb is "if people are have to scream into each other's ears
    and still can't understand each other, either you're way too loud or
    they're way too drunk ...or both"
    
    Most club managers will always think the band is too loud. However, if 
    you appear to cooperate with them, they'll be more than happy to continue
    booking your band. The major peeves from club managers are ...
    
    1) the band is way too loud
    2) the band takes very long breaks (more than 15min. pisses them off)
    3) the band is drunk
    
    If you appear compromise on #1, you can probably get away with #2 and #3
    
    
    /Billy_K

Working without a sound man is like painting for the blind.

Three mikes, would be I assume for vocals yes ????

Get the best stage mix you can, and hope for the best.

This works at weddings, sometimes, in clubs, hardly ever,

Good luck!

Go for balance.

    White noise has equal power across the audio spectrum.... makes a nice
    flat horizontal line on a spectrum analyzer.
    
    The human ear has an equalization curve which is not flat.
    
    Pink noise is noise that sounds white to humans (after passing through 
    the response curve of the ear).

    Pink Noise is also linear in amplitude.

    Reality check:
    
    "White" noise has equal power per Hertz. (This means it's linearly
    distributed over the spectrum.) 
    
    "Pink" noise has equal power per octave. (This means it's
    logarithmically or exponentially distributed over the spectrum.)
    
    Because of the way people hear things, "pink" noise actually "sounds"
    white. Often pink noise generators are referred to as white noise
    generators.
    
    There is also "blue" noise, but you don't want to know.
    
    Paul

    Pull my finger.
    
    ...brown noise.

    answer my mail!!!  ;^)
    
    
                                                   ian

    Re not having a soundman
    	I do every gig like this and it takes time to get things sorted
    out.
    
    	1. After everyting is set up and working I set all Microphone EQ
           and Outboard EQ flat.
    
    	2. Slowly bring up volume of FOH till starts to feed,decrease that
    	   that particular frequency and repeat until a few frequencies
           start to take off or  you reach the point on the desk past
    	   which I never go.
    	
    	3. Play a CD (for me a sequenced backing track always the same
           song) and adjust EQ for appropriate sound.
    
    	4. Adjust Vocal mics.
    
    	5. Set up Guitar
    
    	6. Sound check all vocals, rythmn & lead sounds (clean and dirty)
           always on the same songs.
    
    	7. When the room starts to fill up if you are not playing music
           through the FOH you can slowly increase your volumes againg to
    	   see if any thing else is going to feed.
    	8. I also stick my head out the front at the start of each set
           and at least one other time during the set to check.
    
    Hope this helps
    P.K.
    song)

    I definitely agree with the idea of using a CD preferably the same one
    all the time. Keep in mind that the last thing you twiddle may be the
    *only* thing that's right, so it's good to go back & spot check your
    lead vocalist's mic & anything else you feel is important. Also, if
    your "stage sound" is LOUD enough (& it doesn't take much) the vocal
    mics will pick it up & raise hell with your mix. A soundman can turn
    down unused mics, but this is impractical if you run sound while
    playing.
    Paul

re: .11

What's FOH?

    FOH = Front Of House  It's the mix that goes out to the house, as
    opposed to your monitor/stage mix.
    
    Greg

    >>as opposed to your monitor/stage mix.
    
    which would be yer M/SM...right GH?
    
    SAD:== Stephen Anthony D'Andrea
    OOC:== Out of Control!

    GH,
    
    So, if your M/SM is OK but your FOH still SLS are you SOL ??
    
    /BK
    
    (SLS :== SoundsLike$hi+)

    No matter how good your M/SM sounds, if the FOH SLS, then most of your
    audience will think the band is NFG. 
    The M/SM  can be set up so as to complement the FOH by helping to fill
    the HIM (hole in the middle). I once saw an LRB (local recording
    band) flip their M/SM's around for use as FOH when their FOH STB (sh*t
    the bed). 
    
    PG

    You guys are killin me!!
    
    gh (nfg/tfb)

    re: -1
    
    >>WTFC
    
    nobody........
    
    8^)

    Don't you guys EVER say SLS to Greg - He's responsible for that 
    mess!!
    :-)
    

    I'm rollin...............
    8^) X1000
    
    YY'S UR YY'S UB IC UR YY'S 4 ME
    P.K.

    Attack of the TLAs!!!!
    
    Argh!
    
    Edd (EDD?)

    
    Well, thanks for all the replies but, with the exception of perhaps
    one, none have been of any use. The problem is I live in the UK and we
    are very poor over here you see. Let me outline our line up...
    
    Drums:		Not miked up so straight acoustic sound.
    Bass:		Through straightforward bass combo.
    Rhythm Guitar:	Through 80w combo.
    Lead Guitar:	Through 65w combo.
    Vocals:		3 mikes (used by guitarists and drummer) into
    			a 4 channel Carlsbro PA feeding two speakers and 
    			also feeding some monitors.
    
    We have no mixer. We have no soundman. We feel we should be able to get
    a reasonable sound just as we are. We feel we DO get a reasonable
    sound. But how do we take all possible steps to ensure this?
    
    Regards,
    Richard

>    Don't you guys EVER say SLS to Greg - He's responsible for that 
>    mess!!
    
    For now...  ;^)

    One of the least expensive & most effective ways to improve your sound
    is to get *independent* control of your monitors i.e. being able to
    alter the monitor level without affecting the house level. There are
    only about a quarter of a billion different ways to do this though, so
    it can get tricky. 
    	1. Different speaker impedance (main vs. monitor)
    	2. Separate power amps.
    	3. "T-pads" on the monitors.
    	4. Use of stereo mixer out for main/monitor (instead of L/R).
    	5. Use of different EQ for monitor.
    	6. Careful placement of monitor speakers.
    ....... that's about a quarter of a billion ....
    
    Paul
     

    re -2
    
    	Yes you don't have a great deal of equipment, but, I have seen
    bands using similar gear and they have had a great sound (in small
    clubs).
       No matter what you do you will never be able to fill big rooms.
    Without a EQ you are going to be limited to operating at a volume
    induced by the construction of the room.  All you can do is operate  
    in this enviroment,pulling the best/clearest sound you have. 
    
       You  said you have no mixer.....what sort of controls do you have
    on the Carlsboro PA? Does it have EQ, Sweepable EQ, Aux send facility
    , Inserts etc.
    
    	I found one of the largest improvements in sound is achieved with
    the relatively small expense of purchase a 31 Band EQ.
    
    P.K.
    

    
    Re -.1
    
    This sounds like a worthwhile investment from what you (and others)
    have said. No, the PA is a basic 4 channel PA with very basic
    bass/treble controls. We'll look into this although it's not that we are
    dissatisfied with our sound just that we don't seem to adopt any
    methodlogy for checking it out at any venue. Well, we do have some ways
    but it all seems a bit hit and miss. Perhaps that's what it is, a
    question of hit and miss unless you have semi professional mixers,
    sound man etc.
    
    Regards,
    Richard