Conference napalm::guitar

You adjust the saddle so that the octave (12th) fret is exactly � way
between the nut and the pivot point of the saddle (i.e. bridge).
You know this is necessary when the intonation is wrong (e.g. a note plyaed at
the octave is sharp or flat compared to the open string.
The intonation will need checking if you raise or lower the action (because this
also alters the distance between the nut and the bridge).

Hth,
Dave.

	Saddle adjustments are for setting string height and intonation.

	The height adjustment is used to set string height to somewhere
	between 3/64" to 7/64" depending on guitar model and playing
	preference. Height is measired from the top of the fretwire
	at the 12th fret to the bottom of the string.

	The intonation ajustment is for changing the speaking length
	of the string to compensate for the amount the string stretches
	when you press it to the fretboard. You can set this using
	an electronic tuner and a screwdriver.
	
	Tune the guitar to pitch. At each string, play the harmonic at
	the twelfth fret and the fretted note at the twelfth fret. These
	should be at the same pitch. If the fretted note is sharp, add
	some length to the string by moving the saddle back, away from
	the neck. If the fretted note is flat, shorten the string by
	moving the saddle forward. Retune and try again.
		

    
    Thanks much!
    
    JP

    re -2
    	Is it the fretted note at th 12th fret/ Harmonic or the open
    string / Harmonic that you check intonation against. If it is the
    former I have been doing mine wrong for years (but there is no surprise
    in that 8^).  )
    
    P.K.

    The 12 fret harmonic and open string should be the same note, different
    octaves.  It's easier to compare the 12th fret fretted to the 12th fret
    harmonic by ear (at least for me).
    
    Greg

    This is really a comment to answer 4. 
    
    The harmonic is by its nature always in tune with the open string, only
    one octave higher.
    
    Regardless how you adjust the saddle, this does not change.
    
    If you move the saddle back and forth, both the open string and the
    harmonic change exactly the same. (Only one octave difference)
    
    The 12th fretted also changes, but about twice more than the open
    string. This allows to bring the open and the 12th fretted back exactly
    in tune. (Only one octave difference)
    
    Regards
    
    Jean-Paul 
    
    
    

    compare the fretted 12th fret pitch with the harmonic pitch; adjust if
    yer tuner says they don't match.....
    
    dawg

    Just when I thought I understood this boy am I confused!
    
    One more time you play the harmonic on 12 and the fretted 12th compare
    them and the tuner should like both right?
    
    Pat

 >>  One more time you play the harmonic on 12 and the fretted 12th compare
 >>  them and the tuner should like both right?
 
    If your instrument is in tune and your intonation is set correctly.
    If they are not both in tune, to clarify the previously stated info:
    
        1) Make sure the string is in tune.
    
        2) Play the string fretted at the 12th fret.  Check it against
    	   a tuner or by comparing it to the pitch of the 12 fret harmonic.
    
        3) If the fretted note is flat, you need to shorten your
    	   string length.  Adjust your bridge to move the saddle of
    	   the string towards the nut.  
    
        5) If the fretted note is sharp, you need to lengthen your
    	   string length.  Adjust your bridge to move the saddle of
    	   the string away from the nut.  
    
        6) Repeat the above steps (remembering to re-tune with each
           saddle adjustment) until both the open string and the
           fretted string can be played in tune.
    
    If you are using a tuner that automatically determines what note
    you are playing, you don't need to use harmonics.  Just make sure
    that both the open string and the fretted string are both in tune.
    When working by ear or when using a tuner that requires you to set
    the note and/or octave, it is easier to use the harmonics, since
    the desired pitches are the same (not an octave apart).  Your final
    goal is that the open string, 12th fret harmonic, and 12th fret note
    all play in tune.
    
    BTW, if I remember the physics of strings correctly (real strings,
    not theoretical strings that are infinitely flexible), the 12th fret
    harmonic is actually slightly sharp.  This has something to do with
    the fact that string is stiff and the effective length of the nodes
    is slightly less than half the length of the string.  With guitar
    strings, I belive this effect is not noticeable.
        

    
    Just a couple (3 actually) of questions which I think I know the answer
    to but maybe I don't! Having done all the actions described and you
    have a perfectly intonated guitar...
    
    
    STRING CHANGES
    
    If you had done all the suggested things with ultra light gauge strings
    and then changed to heavy gauge, presumably you will have messed up
    your intonation because the strings are thicker and therefore stretch
    less when fretted at the 12th. Now this may be very minor (maybe it
    isn't) but nevertheless true. Am I right here?
    
    
    ACTION CHANGING
    
    If you adjust the action by raising or lowering the strings at the
    saddle then presumably you will put the intonation out as well?
    
    
    12 STRINGS
    
    12 Strings will NEVER be perfectly intonated unless each string has its
    own adjustable saddle. And then it just wouldn't have that '12 string
    sound'.
    
    
    Richard

re    <<< Note 2745.10 by CHEFS::BRIGGSR "Four Flat Tyres on a Muddy Road" >>>
    
    
�    STRING CHANGES
...
�    your intonation because the strings are thicker and therefore stretch
�    less when fretted at the 12th. Now this may be very minor (maybe it
�    isn't) but nevertheless true. Am I right here?

I don't think this should be an issue. You shouldn't be pressing down so hard
on the fret to send the note sharp. It may be that your playing needs to be
adjusted for the lighter guage strings, though.    
    
�    ACTION CHANGING
    
�    If you adjust the action by raising or lowering the strings at the
�    saddle then presumably you will put the intonation out as well?

Yes, I agree. Raising the saddle makes the distance between the nut and the
saddle longer.    
    
�    12 STRINGS
Dunno...    

*Dave

    I don't know about the 'string tension' reasoning, but I do know that
    you almost always have to reset your intonation when you change string
    gauges or composition type.
    
    You're right, 12 strings are never intonated right.  That's part of
    their characteristic sound.
    
    Greg

    >>�    your intonation because the strings are thicker and therefore stretch
>>�    less when fretted at the 12th. Now this may be very minor (maybe it
>>�    isn't) but nevertheless true. Am I right here?
>>
>>I don't think this should be an issue. You shouldn't be pressing down so hard
>>on the fret to send the note sharp. It may be that your playing needs to be
>>adjusted for the lighter guage strings, though.    
    
    It is an issue.  Heavier guage strings will need slightly longer
    string lengths to play in tune (assuming the same string composition),
    lighter guage string will require shorter lengths. 
    
    Jim

    When I've done this, I've noticed a BIG difference in intonation when I
    change the string height, & a slight (if any) difference in intonation when
    I change string gauges. I've also noticed that as the strings wear in
    (out) &/or get dirty, the intonation can go bad, but restringing with
    new ones makes more sense than trying to compensate with the
    intonation. I usually check the intonation whenever I put on new
    strings.
    The "12-string sound" is partly due to or enhanced by the high E & B
    unison strings' being not quite perfect unison, but the effect can be
    lost when it's overdone. I ran sound for a folk artist who liked it that 
    way, & I had to wince whenever he picked up the 12-string. I prefer to
    tune them as precisely as I can & let the natural slippage &
    impercision of my hearing do the rest. 
    I don't think it's a good idea to use the open strings (as opposed to
    12th fretted ones) when setting intonation. One reason already
    mentioned is the ability to hear the *octave* vs. the *unison* is
    probably not as good, but the other reason is that the displacement
    caused by playing a note is sort of "averaged out" when you adjust
    using the fretted notes. The most noticeable side effects I've observed
    happen when you play something with "high fretted" notes & open strings
    together. For me this only happens occasionally, like when I play a
    plain E barre chord on the 12th fret but leave the E's & B strings open
    for a different sound. So far the only times I've used those chords
    have been when there's some kind of "rave up" going on, so tuning is
    less of an issue.
    One more comment, some bridges are so poorly made or badly placed that
    you can't "reach" to where you want to to tune the intonation for all
    the strings. If yours is one of these, sell it.
    Paul
     

    RE: 12 strings sounding like they do because of the intonation
    innaccuracy.....
    
    Somebody told me or I read it in here.....isn't that how a Chorus FX
    works?  It doubles (delay) the note you are playing, only ever so
    slightly flat?
    
    dawg.....

    Re: .-1
    
    Yup, chorus=delay + slight pitch bend on the delayed signal.
    
    
    Tom
    ---
    Dictated using Dragon Dictate (Voice Recognition)
    Dragon Questions? Please Call.
    DTN 381-1864
    

    The way they get a "pitch bend" is by *changing* the delay time while
    the note sounding. This creates a sort of "digital Doppler" effect
    which sounds like "chorus" when you mix it with the dry signal. If you
    simply use delay at a set time, what you hear won't sound like
    "chorus". The chorus machine may be labeled "delay", but in reality
    it's "maximum delay". Some of them allow you to adjust the "minimum
    delay" by use of a "range" or "sweep" control. The "feedback" control
    on these puppies allows you to adjust how much of this processed signal
    you want to send back to the input of the processor. Real life "chorus"
    or Doppler has lots of components smoothly mixed together, so digital
    machines only approximate it. A shower stall with moveable walls would
    approximate real life also.
    Paul 

    re: .17
    
    Actually, I thought the "delay" control on most chorus's sets the
    center delay time, then the "depth" control set the amount of
    modulation away from that time that it'll do.  Then there's your "rate"
    control which sets the time a full sweep of the modulation takes to
    occur.
    
    Greg

    
    Help!
    
    I followed the directions on the 12th fret adjustment with the open
    string, and got everything on the money.  Did a final tuning with the
    electronic tuner, and hit an open E chord which sounded fine.  Plus,
    all the major chords sound fine all the way up to the E at the 12th
    fret.
    
    So, what's the problem?  The open D and open A chords sound just
    horrible (not even close).  And, of course, if I tune so that they
    sound fine, everything else up the neck is off.  Any idea what I did
    wrong, or what other adjustments need to be made to get the open chords
    in line with everything else.  By the way, I did change the saddle
    adjustments considerably.
    
    Any help would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks,
    Al
    

    
    I'd suspect worn frets.  Check the 2nd and 3rd frets for wear....
    
    Kevin
     

    This phenomenon happened to me once before....I had a 'bad' string!  My
    D string was 'dead' and it was not obvious except for the fact that I
    could not set the intonation/tuning. The strings were only a few weeks
    old!  Worth a try!
    
    Steve

It is sometimes useful to remember that a guitar will never be in perfect pitch
on each string at each fret.  This is one of the facts of life with guitars.
Some have the problem worse than others.

Jim

    If it's the first couple of fretted positions that are giving you
    trouble, it could also be a misadjusted nut.  If the nut slots are too
    high, you end up bending the strings when fretting the first couple of
    frets, which can whack out your intonation.  So make sure your nut
    slots aren't too tall.
    
    Greg

    
    Thanks for the ideas.  Since this is a new guitar, I suspect it is
    either the strings (brand new set on there) or the nut.  Or, as one
    note suggested, this might just be "in search of the perfect intonation"
    (that's an old Moody Blues tune).
    
    Thanks,
    Al