Conference napalm::guitar

    I agree on the Yamaha mystery....I'm bettin' they could make a quality
    rig.....
    
    One wonders!
    
    

    I think the Japanese have a yen (sorry...) for the high-tech.
    
    You'll notice no shortage of synths, MIDI gear, D2D recording,
    DSP technologies, DAT (blah, blah, blah).  I think that 'they' 
    are looking toward the future, and that perhaps the future is
    not in amps, but in high tech gear.
    
    Perhaps they also think that making a toob amp is not a very 
    profitable business because of the leanings of some of us (We know
    who we are :-) towards the markets mentioned above...
    
    jc
      

    Okay, here's a try.  The Japanese have no "ear" for it.  Look at another
    area where they've made little headway, pickups; the rule of thumb is
    you upgrade pickups on a Japanese instrument right?  The big replacement
    pickup houses and custom winders are all in the West.  The Japanese have
    a well founded reputation for solid engineering, and this shows up in
    their dominance of most consumer electronics.  But when you're talking
    amps and pickups, you're talking "tone" which is less tangible and
    requires a more aesthetic discipline.  It's a lot harder to engineer
    in good tone.
    
    Btw, I don't think this is an inherent trait of the Japanese, and I
    don't think they're lacking in aesthetics either.  It's just that in
    this area, we have the experience and the support network.  Electric
    guitar was invented here, developed here, and continues to be practiced
    here more than anywhere else.  Innovations in amplifier and pickup design
    are typically created by player types, with lots of real-life R&D
    happening in bars and clubs and concert halls continuously.
    
    For a weird analogy, it's kind of like the US college system churning out
    basketball stars for the NBA.
    
    /rick

   Maybe it's not an engineering challange? 

   Or, Maybe Europe and the US have already designed it and taken the fun
     out of redesigning?




/Buffy

    
    
    		NOPE....There's just no money in it !  
    
    

    Re: .5
    
    No money?  Imported amps have a decent market share in the small/cheap
    amp market, so why do they have no presence in the higher end? 
      
    Could you expand on this argument?
    
    							Brian

    It's not that high-end amps aren't profitable -- they just don't sell
    in volume.  So at this point in time, the Japanese haven't been
    interested...
    
    A similar situation exists in telescopes.  The Japanese make great
    optics.  They virtually dominate 35mm SLRs.  With telescopes, however,
    they seem quite content to stick to the consumer (department store)
    models.  Meade and Celestron (two US companies) dominate the market --
    although they rely on Japan for their eyepieces and low-end stuff.
    
    Jim

    
    
    	O.K  I'll try....
    
    
    	The way I see it,  the Japanese (or any smart business) probably
    sees little benefit in entering a market with so much competition and
    relatively small profit potential.
    
    	To put it another way; except for "leading edge technological
    ventures", I believe they won't manufacture something if they can't
    sell, say....a million of 'em....guaranteed!   Even if they built
    the best sounding guitar amp in the world, how many could they sell?
    How many guitar players are out there?    
    
    	Every family has a TV or two.  Most have a VCR, stereo, radios...
    a car etc.  etc.  Something like  100,000,000+ households just in the
    US alone.  Compare that to (optimistically)  40% of the guitar player
    market,  a few hundred thousand..and I don't think the costs to design
    ...tool up..manufactuer..and distribute  warrant persuing a venture of
    that type.  
    
	
    
    
    
    
    
    	Besides, I hear they like Marshalls...

    Re: .7 and .8
    
    That makes sense except for one thing...why do they sell guitars?  Or
    even keyboards for that matter (although they now dominate there, it
    used to be U.S. dominated).  ????
    
    						Brian

    One thing the Japanese have been good at for a long time is copying
    other people's designs, possibly with some improvements, then selling
    lots of them with cutthroat pricing.  It seems to me some Japanese
    company like Yamaha could copy some of Fender's, Marshall's or
    Mesa/Boogie's designs and sell a lot of units, possibly (hopefully,
    from their point of view) driving the original designer out of the
    business.  Or are they afraid of Peavey?  %^)
    
    Dave

    Well, I for one wouldn't worry about any Japanese company putting
    Fender, Marshall, or Mesa out of business.  The reason?  Well, I know
    this is going to shock a lot of you, but a heck of a lot of amp
    business has little to do with sound.  It has to do with the name
    on the control plate.  There's a market for those amps and most of
    that market is going to buy the name, period.
    
    Now there is a market for innovation, a good example being the success
    of the GK 250ML.  I would expect Japanese companies to be able to make
    inroads (along with some decent $$) with products like that.

    The way I see it is that what the Japanese are best at is "time to
    market". They're very good at getting new technology into a shippable
    product in volume in a short time. And one thing that I observed about
    the japanese long ago is that, unlike American businesses, they are not
    afraid to retool. A company like Sony comes out with redesigned consumer
    electronics gear like it's their "flavor of the week". (Frankly I think
    they over do it. It induces buyer hesitation) We're (American
    businesses) getting better in this regard but only because we learned
    some tough lessons.

    Anyway, this talent is best used in markets characterized by quickly
    evolving technologies. They can stay ahead of the curve, get there
    before competition (in volume) and eat up market share as they go. They
    don't care about obsoleting products because that's how they make their
    money.

    Because the amp market is not moving along a technology curve like, say,
    keyboards, it offers relatively little to the Jap music companies. It's
    a market already locked up by a handful of companies. Penetrating it
    requires a whole different strategy.

    Then again, I could be wrong.

    --Ron

    
    I remember in 1972 a neighbour of ours here in the UK getting A
    Datsun!! Yes, really, he bought himself a heap of Japanese junk! We
    couldn't believe it. It was analagous to someone today buying a Skoda
    or, God forbid, a Trabant!
    
    I remember the first Japanese Hi Fi amps appearing and us 'purists'
    scoffing at them.
    
    I remember the Honda 50 (OK, but they'll never produce a real bike!). I
    mean who'd forsake a Triumph or Norton or a BSA for a JAPANESE bike! Be
    serious!
    
    I have learnt the folly of this attitude which clearly comes across in
    many of the replies to this note.
    
    IMHO the whole electronic music amplification is a rip off especially
    when it comes to amplifiers. There are an awful lot of parallels
    between the amplifier business and the (at least UK) car business,
    motorcycle business and HiFi business when they were all, one by one,
    decimated by more reliable, higher functionality and cheaper products
    from Japan.
    
    The ONLY *possible* thing saving Fender, Marshall etc al is, as
    pointed out earlier, is the lack of volume shipment potential. Its
    certainly not price, functionality and most definitely not brand
    loyalty.
    
    Richard

    I could be wrong on this, but I believe I recently heard that Harley is
    currently the biggest selling motorcycle mfg in America AND Japan. 
    
    "Brand loyalty" is the wrong term, a better one is "mystique".

    Re: .14
    
    Lousy analogy, because Harley is a real specialized subset of
    motorcycles.  If they made amps they would be Mesa/Boogie, not Fender.
    
    						Brian

    RE: .14
    
    Don't be silly.  Harley Davidson doesn't sell 5% of what the big four 
    sells in motorcycles.  All four of the biggies from Japan are 
    multi-BILLION dollar companies...

    
    I don't see that many companies making a lot of money in tube amp
    gear, and that might influence Japan.  Companies seem to come and go.
    (Can you say KittyHawk?)
    
    Sure, Mesa, Fender, and Marshall make money, but does that represent a
    large enough market to get involved?
    
    However, if you look at high-tech rack mount gear it would seem to be a
    more natural business for Japan to be involved in.  
    
    Also, it's certainly not beyond Fender to ship some of it's amp
    manufacturing work to Japan......
    
    Kevin
     

    re a couple back
    
    yeah, I guess a Mesa/Harley analogy was sort of what I had in mind,
    so what?  Couldn't guitar amps in general be considered a specialized
    segment of the electronics market?  Btw, the figure is something like
    60% market share for Harley in their class of bikes (heavyweights);
    this from a Fortune magazine article.

    Re: .17
    
    >However, if you look at high-tech rack mount gear it would seem to be a
    >more natural business for Japan to be involved in.  
    
    They are in *already*,  big time, i.e. Roland, Yamaha, Korg, Ibanez,
    but they don't dominate yet, since ART, DigiTech, Alesis, Lexicon, etc.
    are all U.S. built.
    
    >Also, it's certainly not beyond Fender to ship some of it's amp
    >manufacturing work to Japan......
    
    The early Sidekicks were Japanese, now they are from Taiwan.  All the
    "big" Fender amps are U.S. made.  The only amp brand I can think of
    that is "dual sourced" is Marshall.  You can buy the 10 and 25 watt
    combos under the Marshall name (UK made) or the Park name (Korean) at
    20% less.
    
    Any noters from Japan in here?  Certainly in the UK there are brands of
    amps sold that neever make it to the U.S. (Carlsbro, WEM). When I was
    in Korea in the mid seventies, there were domestic amps, even stacks,
    but they were all garbage.  Still, since the cost of a Fender was about
    3 times U.S. list due to duties, you did see these amps in use (of
    course, really well-heeled bands had U.S. or UK gear). Are there
    Japanese amp companies that sell only to the domestic market?  
    
    						Brian

    	I'd be interested in knowing where most of the components that go
    into any US made amp come from, including loudspeakers.
    
    -Ralph

    Slight nit:
    
    My lexicon verb is designed in the US, but has Made In Japan all over
    it.
    
    FWIW,
    jc

    Re: .20
    
    Most speakers are built in the US (except Celestions).  Although SWR
    uses Fostex (Japan) as a source for their tweeters.  Components come
    from various places; lots of the hardware (jacks, pots) and ICs in
    American gear may be Japanese.  Tubes come mostly from China or Eastern
    Europe these days.
    
    Re: .21
    
    Say it aint so.  Oh well, now we know how Lexicon got the price down.
    
    							Brian
    

    >Say it aint so.  Oh well, now we know how Lexicon got the price down.
    
    Okay: "Say it aint so."
    
    But thats what it sez...  Actually, I can't say for SURE about the
    'verb, but I noticed it said made in Japan on my MRC...
    jc
    

    
    My Fender Champ's made in Mexico and has Chinese valves as standard.
    
    Richard

	I seem to remember reading that the Japanese don't like to export their
products until they've been on the domestic market for a while. Off the top of
my head I can only think of one Japanese rock band (and I can't even remember 
the name) but they're Marshall users. 

	Re .7

	The Japanese *do* make, and export quality telescopes; Vixen and 
Takahashi to name but two. With their domestic market increasing, they're 
becoming more agressive with their exports too!

		Ian G.

    That reminds me... I was in the camera store yesterday, and I noticed
    they had a Meade telescope there, and remembered a note in this string
    about how Celestion and Meade were top-end gear Made In USA, so I paid
    attention.
    
    This Meade telescope was made in Taiwan.
    \Gary

    RE .25
    
    �Off the top of my head I can only think of one Japanese rock band 
    (and I can't even remember the name) but they're Marshall users.               
    
    
    The Band would have to be Vow Wow... a most excellent band..
    
    Can't say if they were using Marshall gear the last time I saw them
    (4-5 years ago)
    
    Bob

    Re: .25
    
    Japanese rock bands may not super common here in the US, but a few have
    made it onto domestic labels, how about:  Loudness, Sadistic Mika Band,
    Shonen Knife, even a Japanese blues singer (!!??), Toru Oki (this guy
    has to be heard to be believed!).
    
    						Casey Cheeseum

Re -1

	That's the one!

		Ian G.

Damn, NOTES clash! Vow Wow was the band.

		Ian G.

    FYI: Mesa Dual Rectifier comes stocked with 5U4G's from Russia. They
    still use vacuum tubes in military aircraft over there, so maybe they
    can still make decent tubes cheap.
    	Anyone looking to start a company that produces high end tube gear
    send me E-mail. The market *must* be good if there's no Japanese
    competition. 
    	All the arguments about specialty item & thin markets don't have to
    apply if it's done right. I'm serious about starting a company,
    partners or not.
    
    Paul

    re: .31 (sort of)
    
    Isn't some of the real high end audio stuff all-tube?
    If so --- How does it survive?  Where is it made?
    
    \Gary

    Re: .32
    
    Most high-end audio tube gear is U.S. made.  It's also ridiculously
    expensive, partly because of the cost of building tube amps and partly
    because of low volumes built.  How about the Meridian CD player with
    *tube* analog section for a mere $1000!  
    
    Plus there is a big market in *vintage* tube hi-fi gear from the 50s
    and 60s (hmm, sound familiar?) although the stuff often gets hot-rodded
    to further improve performance.
    
    							Brian

    
    Certainly not under the listing of "great" amps, but surely
    Japanese.....my practice amp is an Ibanez. I saw it in a
    hock shop some time back and bagged it for $75 or so. Its
    20w solid state with what looks to be a 10" speaker; even features
    compression. Nothing fancy, but it works and sounds great for
    what I do with it. I originally was looking for a used PV
    Minx, but the prices both new and used were more than I wanted
    to spring for a practice amp. The Ibanez fits the bill nicely,
    plus you get to see the look of people's faces when show 'em
    the logo :-).                                               
    
    DAP
    
    

    I didn't know Ibz even made amps!!
    
    wow!

    Re: .34,.35
    
    I've seen a few Ibanez bass combos that looked like (surprise) Roland
    amplifiers! 60 and 100 watters with 1-15".  Wurlitzer's in Boston had
    some of these back around 85.  I suspect they were built for non-US
    distribution.
    
    That reminds me of one interesting Japanese tube amp, the Roland
    Bolt-60.  This was a Boogie wannabe with transistor preamp and tube
    power, 1-12"  These were around at the dawn of the 80s, anybody else
    remember these?  Andy Summers of the Police used them for awhile.
    
    							Brian

>    That reminds me of one interesting Japanese tube amp, the Roland
>    Bolt-60.  This was a Boogie wannabe with transistor preamp and tube

    I remember those along with the all SS Cube(?) 40 and 60 and Cu=be
    keyboard amp.

    --Ron

    
    Brian raises an interesting point; Colorado Springs is a military
    town. Lots of GIs rotating overseas and lots of folks pawning
    stuff (as an aside, I love haunting pawnshops :-). Its very
    possible that this amp was bought/pawned by someone in the
    service and that is was not intended for US distribution.
    
    DAP
     

    Guess who's *buying* those old vintage high (priced) end audio tube
    amps like Mac, Marantz, etc........ The Japanese !!!
    There's a British made (I think) 100 watt stereo power amp that'll set
    you back something like $68,000. Couldn't you support Pete Townshend's
    habit at a Marshall stack a week for over a year at that rate ? 
        ... Go figure.
    

      
      Pete Townshend used HIWATT almost exclusively! As a matter of fact he
    probably accounted for a HUGE amount of their sales!
    
    							-b{}{}mINFO-z

    ...and it probably accounted for a HUGE amount of Pete's hearing loss.

    RE: Pete Townshend used Hi Watt almost exclusively....
    The 3 times I saw The (Moone) Who, Pete used all Marshalls. I've seen
    numerous pictures of him with Hi Watt's, but I guess I just got
    (un)lucky. 
    	Entwhistle used Sunns at two of the three & Marshalls at the other.
    	Even the PA system was eight 4x12 Marshall cabinets the first time
    I saw them. 
    	The last time was their "Never Say Never ... Again" Farewell
    tour where they had rack stuff (mostly Mesa) & that Electric/Acoustic
    guitar.
    	Pete blames his tinnitis on extensive "rehearsing" through
    headphones while drunk. I suspect this is at least parlty to blame. 
    	One of the *LOUDEST* events I ever personally attended was Face To
    Face just after they got signed & had all new HiWatt 400's. I was in
    the front row at I think The Channel, & it was definitely a bit much.
    For a while The Who were the *LOUDEST* band in the world, so I guess
    it may take a real scientist to get to the bottom of the headphone
    theory.
    
    Paul
      
    	Anyway, my point in .39 was $68,000 is a *lot* to pay for an amp.

    
    This came over the Internet today!  I've heard the Acetone name
    before, they sold combo organs back in the sixties and seventies.
    
    From: [email protected] (Peter Corps)
    Subject: Japanese Acetone guitar amplifiers
    Date: Tue, 4 May 1993 22:21:22 GMT
 
    I'm interested in corresponding with anyone who has
    interest/information re: Acetone guitar amplifiers from Japan.  I am
    mainly interested in the tube models from the 1960's (or earlier?). 
    Most of the models I've seen were slightly smaller in size than the
    average guitar amp, and are quite light-weight. They were made in both
    amp/cabinet and combo styles in a wide range of sizes.  They were
    usually covered in white tolex, had silver faces and black control
    knobs. They sported names like: "Rocky", "Elite", "Base 3", "Base 10". 
    Larger models had two channels, with master reverb and tremolo
    controls.
 
    I have found them to be one of the best cheap amplifiers ever made,
    with  a truly distinctive tone (much like the VOX AC-30).  While
    certainly not the loudest amps available they had an excellent clean
    sound (warm and  bright) with an excellent natural tube distortion
    achieved by turning up the volume or by using an ElectroHarmonix LP-1
    to boogie the pre-amp.
 
    These amps were quite rugged and reliable, although not without their
    problems - one of which was the use of series filament output tubes on
    the larger models: (for which I have never seen a replacement listed)
    about 50V, and a toggle switch (usually inside the back of the chassis
    marked "100v - 110v" which I presume was to accomodate the different
    line volatages in Japan and North America, unfortunately people would
    switch it to 100V in hopes of gettin a hotter sound and thereby "aging"
    the output tubes. 
 
    I have managed to find one recently - an Elite, it's about 12" tall,
    10" wide and perhaps 6" deep, it's an open-back combo with a 6" or 8"
    speaker, single-channel, tremelo, and (one-spring!) reverb but has no
    tubes and no schematic diagram. If you have one or know of one please
    let me know what tubes it needs to work!!
 
    I don't know if these amps were ever distributed widely in the US or
    not, I know they were sold in Vancouver many years ago but I ask anyone
    with any information to please email me or post to the net. I may be
    interested in purchasing one if I can find an original.

    They also made small PA rigs.  I've seen a couple of 'em that appeared
    to be in the same market as the old Shure Vocalmasters.
    
    Greg

    RE: .43 with a Tube manual & some patience, you can probably "reverse
    engineer" the thing to determine at least the tube pinouts & probably
    the tube types.
    I don't think we've answered the primary question in this note yet.
    Paul