Conference napalm::guitar

    KEEP IN MIND ... LYRICS ARE JUST FILLERS BETWEEN SOLOS, AND OTHER
    INSTRUMENTS IN THE BAND MERELY HOIST THE CANVAS SO THE GUITARIST MAY
    PAINT UPON IT ... WORDS TO LIVE BY ....
    
    SCARY (THE `RENOIR' OF COVER TUNES ...INCLUDING OZZY)

    
    re: .22
    
    The savior has spoken....bow down thou lowly canvas hoisters....
    
    ;-)
    
    guy

I personally think Ozzy write AWESOME lyrics...Althought I'll agree he
goes a little far with the symbolism  thing on some tunes...

Check out the words to Goodbye To Romance, or Mister Crowley...

    
    
    You guys crack me up with concerns about lyrics and symbolism. 
    Sometimes we seem to forget that it's just show biz...  Besides,
    haven't you had a day where you were ready to bite off the head of a
    chicken?
    

    
    Strangely enough, I just DID sit down and read all the lyrics on 
    both "Blizzard of Oz" and "Diary of a Madman".  I still think 
    they're bogus.  I had the albums out only to teach my brother 
    the bass line to Crazy Train...
    
    guy

    RE: Ozzy's lyrics
    
    I think it's DOLLARS, not DEVIL that's the main focus here. 
    
    
    RE: Music
    
    I still think it's great
    
    
    RE: T. Jenson in CO
    
    I have a copy of the Quiet Riot II album...do you have that?  Want a
    cassette copy?  The solo in "Killer Girls" way roolz!  
    
    

    
    
    It's also my opinion that Ozzy's in it for the dollars and 
    anything resembling "Satanic lyrics" is merely for show.  
    But they're still very badly done, even for that context (but
    what do *I* know about Satanic lyrics?). 
    
    Personally, if I were going to the trouble of creating music
    of lasting value, I'd want to attempt some lyrics of the same
    caliber.
    
    Is it essentially impossible to write good lyrics to certain types
    of music?
    
    guy 

>    Personally, if I were going to the trouble of creating music
>    of lasting value, I'd want to attempt some lyrics of the same
>    caliber.

    Personally if *I* took that approach, I'd never end up writing any
    songs.  I say lasting value to the toilet, I want to accomplish
    something!  I seriously doubt that Ozzy had lasting value in mind when
    he wrote any of that stuff anyway.

    While I don't like the Satanic trend in some of Ozzy's lyrics, I really
    don't think they're that poorly written.  You must not listen to a lot
    of AOR type rock music if you think those are bad, because there are
    some absolutely horrendous things pushed off as lyrics. Maybe it's not
    fair to make a "lesser of two evils" comparison, and maybe all rock
    lyrics really *are* bad, I don't know.  Quite honestly, the lyrics are
    pretty close to the last thing I ever listen for in a song anyway.  

    Lyrics aside, Randy's guitar playing was brilliant, I'd hate to have
    missed hearing it because someone decided Ozzy's lyrics weren't good
    enough for the songs and bagged the project.

    My bottom line is that I'd rather hear good music with bad lyrics then
    either bad music with good lyrics or NO music.
    
    Greg
                                                  

Frankly, I don't hear much satanic reference in Ozzy's stuff with Randy...
I listened to Diary Of A MadMan on the way to work this morning.  I'm floored
everytime I listen to that album.

jc (Who even likes Ozzy's voice!  Gofigure)

    Greg touched on something here that I'm ghoing to go out on a little
    limb and expound upon,.. namely the lack of value in much of
    todays AOR and I would add "pop" music ...
    
    I'm sorry folks,.. But some of this stuff really irks me. I can't
    think of exact passages but theres a lot of this:
    
    	" I got up this morning,..went into the bathroom
    	  tried to brush my teeth but the toothpatse tube was empty
    
    	Oh yeah the toothpast tube was empty
    	Oh yeah the toothpaste tube was empty
    
    	Apparently the minds of todays lyricists are also somewhat empty.
    Is it my imagination, or has the quality of the lyrics really gone
    downhill in recent years? I mean,.. in the old days (creak) of
    like 60's, 70's, and early 80's this kind of crap would have
    been laughed off the stage/air waves. But today,.. it almost seems the
    norm?!?!?
    
    	Does anybody know what I'm talkking about? Does anybody care?
    Does anybody relate to it? Does anybody else miss the days when we
    could look to our musical interests for actual meaningful insights into
    our own lives?
    
    							/Cataclismic
    
    
    
    I know thw world is in rough shape these days
    and tehres not a lot to feel good abou

    I think it's been an ongoing thing.  Personally, despite his
    outstanding playing, I think Jimi Hendrix's lyrics were extremely weak. 
    The best written songs he ever did were the covers.
    
    Greg

    
    Bad lyrics obviously haven't put me off from certain artists 
    completely.  Witness the fact that I own 2 Ozzy albums and 4
    Yngwie albums.  If I want to hear a musician badly enough, 
    I'll fork over the dough.
    
    And it isn't just "bad" lyrics - it's downright *silly* lyrics.
    It seems to me that the difference between good music and bad
    music are things like context and contrast.  The same lyric or
    melody line sung over the right chord change can make even a 
    dumb line work.  But people like Yngwie and Ozzy have stretched
    even those limits.  Expert lyricists such as they are can actually
    make the rest of the music seem silly and out of place.
    
    Perhaps I should (gasp!) applaud these efforts?   ;-)
    
    guy

    
    Well, what about Steely Dan and the B-52's?  Strange?  Just plain
    silly?  Both?  I guess it's possible to be strange/silly/whatever,
    but still remain intriguing.
    
    -pat

    re: .35
    
>    	Does anybody know what I'm talkking about? Does anybody care?
>    Does anybody relate to it? Does anybody else miss the days when we
>    could look to our musical interests for actual meaningful insights into
>    our own lives?
    
Now there's an interesting question: Where Has All the Meaning Gone? 

First, I have to agree that it seems like songs these days are pretty devoid
of anything meaningful. 

Second, I think that, with a few exceptions, they always were.  Contemporary
pop music has evolved from the rock and roll and R&B of the Fifties, sort of,
when songwriters seemed to be in a drivel competition.  Consider most of
Chuck Berry's songs.  Fun?  Sure.  Meaningful?  Well...

The exceptions to this that I remember tended to be political in nature, 
rock songs that were heir to the folksongs of the sixties, like Buffalo 
Springfield's "For What It's Worth" and CSNY's "Wooden Ships".

Third, I believe that meaning in a song is a very personal thing; what is
meaningful for me may not be for you.  I find meaning in political statements
sometimes, but mostly in songs that evoke strong emotions in me.  So, for
example, there are some songs I find meaningful just because they remind me
of an old girlfriend or a time in my life that was important to me.  I'm sure
those songs don't have that same meaning for anyone else.  I also find meaning
in some blistering guitar or sax solos, just because they stir me somehow.
But it's only meaningful to me, at that time.  I think that if you find
meaning in the blues, it's due to the perception of some shared experience.

That sort of explains why I find AOR mostly meaningless, because much of it is 
so formulaic.  The record companies find a way to polish off all the rough 
edges so it won't offend anyone, and in doing so they take all the life out of 
it.  I think that's why musicians listen to wierd, off-the-wall stuff: just to
catch a buzz once in a while, and stir themselves up a little.

What's surprising to me is not the lack of meaning in most popular music, but 
that there's any at all.  Most people don't want meaning in their music, in my
often-wrong opinion.  They want background noise they don't have to think 
about, because it's easier.  The record companies aren't evil, they're just 
making money selling what sells.  There will always be a market for meaningful 
music, but it will seldom be a big one.  Nowadays your best chance at hearing 
some is to hear a group live and hear music they may not put on their albums.

So what songs have (or had) meaning for you, and why?

Dave

    
    re: .39
    
    Good thoughts...
    
    Hey Mods!!!  Can we have a new topic?
    
    
    Victor Frankl wrote that meaning can be discovered in 3 ways:
    
    1.)  by creating a work (music, art, etc.)
    2.)  in an encounter or experience with another person
    3.)  by the attitude one takes to unavoidable suffering
    
    
    All that aside, some meaningful lyrics (to me) have been:
    
    1.)  the Marillion lyrics on "Holidays in Eden"
    2.)  many, many lyrics by Todd Rundgren
    3.)  lots of lyrics by Neil Peart (Rush)
    
    ....etc....
    
    Of course, I believe those lyrics only to have meaning in the con-
    text of my life during time I was into them in a big way.  And that's
    the other thing Frankl says - that meaning is dependent on your sit-
    uation - it can change if the details of your life change.
    
    guy

re: the good old days

The poor lyrics were there then too, listen to ANY band from the 60's and 
they've got their dogs, especially when you listen to alot of the popular
tripe from the 60's and 70's (yummy yummy yummy, ANY monkeys song, Tommy
James etc.) not only were those lyrics bad, the music didn't survive the
test of time like the Allmon, Clapton, Cream, Hendrix etc. has.

dbii

    re: .40
    
    I'd vote for a new topic, too.  Or, this thread can be part of our
    tribute to Randy.  :-)
    
    Imagine finding references to Frankl in a predominantly rock and roll
    conference - I love it.  So what we have to do in order to find meaning
    in our music is write our own meaningful music.  Right?  Let's go!
    
    re: .42
    
>    why ruin good music with lyrics and vocals?
    
    Actually, I forgot to say it but this pretty much sums up my attitude,
    too.  I like voice as an instrument, but I guess I subscribe to the idea 
    that lyrics are usually just a necessary evil.  But then, what would you 
    expect from a dormant bass player?
    
    Dave   

    
    re: .52 (me)
    
    Oops...that's *morbid* with a "d"....;-)
    
    
    re: .44  - Meaning of lyrics
    
    Yes, I think it's up the the writer to put some personal meaning
    into the lyrics.  If they make an honest attempt at this, then it
    seems *someone* will be able to identify.
    
    The problem with the washed-out, "popular music" lyrics we have
    so much of today is that someone is trying to please everyone.  In
    many ways, sadly, this actually seems to work.  To a large extent
    the average listener (consumer?) IS finding some way to identify
    with the crappy, MacDonalds-Pepsi-Reebok-designer-jeans lyrics.
    The payoff is the ability to avoid having to think for oneself 
    for more than 300 milliseconds - one is never forced to find ones
    own meaning/interpretation of a lyric.
    
    The best lyrics are like poetry.  They don't come right out and
    say it all.  They let you do some of the work, and often times 
    allude to something quite beyond the actual words.
    
    At least, that's MY opinion.  And of course I don't expect anything
    to change in commercial lyrics because I've said any of this.  That
    doesn't make it any less fun for me to ramble on about it....;-)
    
    guy

    If you ain't findin' good lyrics nowadays...
    
    you probably ain't listenin' to contemporary folk and folk-rock.
    
    But don't worry, when Tipper-canoe gets near the White House,
    there ain't gonna be no more stinkin' lyrics...   :7(
    \Gary

    
    .21
    
    I totally agree.  Whenever I want to hear some meaningful lyrics, I put
    on John Prine or the Indigo Girls (plus, a multitude of other Folkies).  
    If I'm listening to Eric Johnson, it ain't for the lyrics that's for sure.
    
    
    .19
    
    Dave,
    
    Typical bass player!  The reason you don't like lyrics is because you
    can't hear anything above 60 hertz (as in frequency, not rental cars).
    
    Al
    

    re: .22
    
    Thanks, Al, that's just the sort of blinkered pig-ignorance I'd expect
    from a *former* bass player.  I've also heard that "bass players do it
    with low frequency" - true?
    
    Dave  :-)

    
    re: .21  - re: Tipper & Co.
    
    Don't worry - we'll still be able to play dirty guitar licks. ;-)
    
    
    re: .22  - re: EJ's lyrics
    
    I think anyone who can use the word "acrolith" in their lyrics is
    a genius. ;-)
    
    
    guy

    re: dirty guitar licks
    
    Why does George Thoroughgood (sp?) come to mind?  And what's Tipper
    going to do about *him*?
    
    Dave

    
    
    
    OK, all you acroliths, here's an idea for returning to sanity in
    lyrics.
    
    How about writing lyrics the way the Kingmen (I think) did in Louie
    Louie.  You just mumble, you never really say anything decipherable.
    That way, the listener can interpret them anyway they want:
    
    o Some of us can interpret them as philisophical and oh so meaningful
    
    o Some of us can interpret them as dirty as we wanna be.
    
    o And Tipper can't complain about anything since she can't prove that
      they're really dirty lyrics
    
    
    Hmm, maybe that's the whole idea behind scat singing, can't get banned
    in Boston if you don't say anything.
    
    Rock on!
    
    Al
    
    
    

>    How about writing lyrics the way the Kingmen (I think) did in Louie
>    Louie.  You just mumble, you never really say anything decipherable.
    
    Worked for REM...
    
    Greg

    
    Sounds good....sorta like modern art....(it's a fork, no, it's a cow,
    ....no it's a...)
    
    guy

    
    well despite years of trying desperately, I don't think Roger Waters
    has run out of ways to say life sucks(in em).
    
    Those late 60's lyrics penned on acid had lots of meaning if you were
    similarly derranged, but more often then come off sounding pretty
    stupid otherwise.
    
    I think the moral of the tale is to not worry so much about it. Music
    more often than not paints an emotion and any spoken incantation that
    backs up the emotion will be valid.  Since so much r-n-r is geered 
    around racing hormones, "baby baby baby" is pure poetry when in the
    proper context.  It's really not important at all to try and save the
    world with 12 bar blues, ya know? If you get hung up on having to try
    and say something "meaningful" all the time, eventually you'll realize
    you really have nothing to say at all, and you stop writing all
    together.
    
    hum, empty toothpaste tubes ya say? let's see, it might go like
    this......ta da da da...
    
    
    bob

    
    re: .29 (Bob S.)
    
    Good points.  At some point you have to forget everything you 
    know and sit down and write something.  You have to come down
    out of the ivory tower of objectivity and experience real 
    emotions that people can identify with.  Or else, as you said,
    do nothing at all....
    
    guy

    re .29
    
    Excellent point Bobby bo! Actually I think you hit the nail on the head
    in that what you say really applies to me. I've written the words to
    about 4 tunes in my lifetime, and to me that's by far the hardest part.
    Each time I did it (finished a tune) I excersized self discipline to
    sit my ass down and work until it was finished. On the other hand,
    composing music comes very easy to me. I get ideas every time I play.
    As a musician, that's my strong point. (My weakest is learning
    riffs/tunes off the record)
    
    Anway, I think that my problem with lyrics has been my feeling that I
    gotta say something meaningful. In so doing, exactly as you say, I
    realized I haven't had anything to say, and therefore never bothered to 
    work it thru to just say something.
    
    I've come up with a few phrases, but its like I never know how to
    extend or resolve them. Now that you've got me thinking about this,
    maybe I oughta just back off trying to  make something big happen and
    let it happen in small bits even if they're stupid at the moment.
    
    Damn, my mind 's racing now thinking about this. you've struck a chord
    here Bob (no pun intended).
    
    "sakman"   
    
      

>    If you get hung up on having to try and say something "meaningful" all
>    the time, eventually you'll realize you really have nothing to say at
>    all, and you stop writing all together.                           
    
    Exactly what I was trying to say in the first paragraph of .10, but it
    probably got lost in the Ozzy part of the discussion.
    
    Greg

    echo:  for new lyrics, new folk is where it's at (if you can forgive
    things like 'pretty motorcycle in my heart')
    
    re .13,
    Jimi's lyrics are weak?  Try again, starting with Castles in the Sand.
    The trick is to hide incredibly good lyrics behind an incredibly
    awesome tune so that they don't register their meaning unless you go
    looking for it.  -jn-

    re .29
    
    	:-),... ta da da da  you say?!?!?
    
    	Hmm,.. I was thinking more along the lines of:
    
    	<SHREEEK,.. SNARL> BZURWAP.... yeah the toothpaste toob was EmPtY
    
    	:-)
    
    re folk lyrics
    
    	OK,.. now we need good music to go with those lyrics. I guess I
    wasn't clear in that I was commenting about the lack of decent
    lyrics in rock,.. 
    
    	Anyway,.. turns out to be a decent discussion,.. glad I brought
    up the question,... And I can really relate to what .-? said
    about running out of things to say if you try to write meaningful
    stuff,...
    
    	Which reminds me
    
    	doo doo doo
    
    	de da da da
    
    	Is all I want to say to you
    
    	:-0
    
    							/Billy
    

    
    	In an earlier life, i wrote music/lyrics for about 120 songs. When
    you're eighteen, crossing the street can be a meaningful action :-)
    
    	I used to be able to knock 'em off rapidly, and in any style. I've
    done rock, folk, pop, schmaltz etc...  As i got more successful at it,
    and better at singing and playing with them, i started paying attention
    to what people were saying and before you know it, I was taking myself
    very seriously.  I had a good friend who was a very good songwriter
    who was having several close calls at selling songs, and it just got
    too technical - too much work.
    
    	Maybe the last couple I wrote were the best - i dunno.  It has now
    been 16 years(this coming November) since i stopped having anything to
    say.  Plenty of times I come up with hooks and snippets of lyrics but
    i never put them down - someone just might take it seriously, you know?
    This is a bad way to be - so don't do it.  
    
    	You have to write 10 bad ones before a mediocre one comes along and
    lord knows how many mediorce before a good one comes along.  So just
    DO IT.  Pretend you are Mojo Nixon or whatever, and let 'em rip.
    
    
    	Now, a friend wants me to write a real grungy number with this
    theme;
    
    		Gonna kill my kids for what they did <SNARL, SQUEAL!!!>
    
    	it would be fun, but for the fact that too many people are
    whacking out and doing it for real!  It's hard enough raising them as
    is, don't want to encourage the seriously derainged!
    
    	bob(_i_wanna_write_for_tha_money_)

This topic really tweaked my interest Friday night, and I wanted to respond, but
I had to rush out of work.  And on the way home on I-25, I dusted off my Rush's
Roll The Bones, and between this discussion and the music, I felt inspired.  
When I got home, I played like I was inspired.  I was kicking some major
b*tt on the Nintendo!  8*)

Seriously, I gotta put a plug here for Neal Peart's lyrics.  I've always admired
the way he can write thought provoking lyrics like he does, IMHO, of course.

I listen to music to escape from everything, and the best way to do that for me
is to think intensely about something, and I like my music to provoke that.  One
way this can be achieved is by great instrument playing, ie Eric Johnson, Joe 
Satriani, Blues Saraceno, etc, and another is by great lyrics with great music, 
ie. Queensryche, Styx, Triumph, Rush, etc.

I would prefer to listen to my car engine's sound to listening to good music 
with bad vocals.  Luckily, a lot of the times the good music can outweigh the 
the weight of the bad vocals(Randy, Eddie VH, and others), and I'll turn my car off, 
but most of the times, I'll prefer to play my Nintendo listening to the synthesized 
music of "Solomon's Key."

Jmystr.

    
    
      The lyrics are out there.  Even when corny sometimes they 
    work for me.  Take "I'm an Adult now..."  Cheese-ee and cool at the
    same time.  Certainly worked for me.  
    
      Then there was XTC's "Dear God" and, (what was it?)  "earn enough
    for"?  Hell, what was it.    
    
      Anyway, I thought those three songs were great.
    
     -Rick.
    
    

    Opinion #1
    		If you want to hear turly creative lyrics you have to get 
    away from the mainstream/metal/rock/radio/sell_a_billion_copies stuff
    and put aside all your prejudices long enough to listen to some truly
    NEW music...even if it's rap/thrash/ska/euro_synthiod_dance_pop/
    modern_rock...
    
    Opinion #2
    		The ONLY lyrics that matter are the ones that $uck!!
    
    8-)kpb