Conference napalm::guitar

I'm a dreadnought bigot, but lots of fingerpickers like the "grand-concert" size
instruments.  Of the Martin "grand-concert" instruments, I'd go for the OM over
the 000 for the 14 fret neck.  You can fingerpick or flatpick either of these
instruments and have them sound fine.  It depends more on what sounds good to
your ears.

On the necks, I have preference for the newer Martin low-profile fingerboards
because they are easier for me to play.  From habit, I prefer the narrower
(1 11/16") fingerboards.  From my observation, it seems like the fingerpickers
are the ones who tend toward the wider fingerboards.  Again, what feels good
to you is what counts.  I think you will probably find more instruments with
the narrow fingerboard.

As for wood, go for rosewood for the body if you have the money.  I haven't 
heard anything that sounded better.

For Martin dreadnoughts, the HD-28 is the benchmark.  For Martin concert-size,
I'd start with the OM-28.

Have fun.

Jim

    Thanks for the reply Jim!
    
    Can you explain the difference between the Martin D-28 and the HD-28?

    The HD-28 has herringbone inlay on the top edge (thus the H) and
    scalloped bracing, which many players prefer for a more "lively" tone.
    
    						Brian

    OK, I'm a Martin bigot as well, but those little Taylor grand
    concert-sizes are the greatest fingerpicking guitars I've ever played. 
    
    As I understand it, the model numbers go like this: the hundred-series
    tells what kind of wood/quality, like 400=mahogany, 500=better
    mahogany, 600=maple, 700=rosewood, 800 and 900, unaffordable rosewood. 
    Or something like that.  Then, if it's a 10, as in 510, it's a
    dreadnought, and if it's a 12, it's a grand concert (and the -12s
    appear to be smaller than the Martin 000s).  Oh, yes, with a C after it
    if it's a cutaway, like 512C.
    
    So ANYWAY, I played the 512 (better mahogany grand concert) and the 712
    (rosewood) at the Music Emporium and a few other places.  As much as I
    hate to admit it, they sound and play much better than the Martin 000s.
    They have better action, and much better tone, especially in the
    mahogany models.  Obviously, the rosewood sounds the best - and the
    guitar is small enough that it's not bass-heavy like a rosewood
    dreadnought - but the mahogany sounds so good that if you could easily
    use it as your ONE guitar forever...
    
    Only prices I can remember are about $800 for the 412 and around $1100
    for the 512; seems like the 712 was around $1300-1400. Actually, I have
    a friend who's looking for one of these too; anyone know where better
    prices can be had?
    
    Charlie

    
    	i can't help with model numbers, and i have a deep-rooted, age-old
    bigotry that Martins are plain old overrated. Until you get to the D45
    and perhaps an old D35, i rank them up with yahaha's for sound. (I expect
    incoming... but i had 2 old yahaha's of a model they discontinued early
    on that i payed $108 for, and i routinely ate the lunch any D28 around 
    as far as sound(tone/volume) went - like havin' a VW bug kick the shit 
    out of a porche. The Martins had a better neck, and looked prettier but
    that's all - i have not liked 'em since '70.)
    
    	I've only played 1 Taylor, it had a $2200 list on it, was not very
    adorned, but flat-picked and finger-picked gorgeously.  In my mind, a
    very fine sounding guitar.   However, i'm not fussy at all about looks
    - i only care about the sound, so if you want your $ to look nice,
    don't listen to me.  Taylor's are expensive, but to these ears, they
    area better guitar.
    
    bob
    

On the Martin action - if you are playing a guitar as it comes from the factory
it will probably have unacceptably high action.  I don't understand why they 
continue to do this.  Many people buy a Martin and never lower the action.  
Go figure.

BTW, I was wrong about the "grand-concert" size being the 000.  "Auditorium"
is the 000 size.  ("Concert" is the 0-size for those who have to know.)

I can't say much about the sound of many of the Auditorium sized instruments.
I owned one for several years, but sold it and have been using dreadnought
ever since.  I will agree that the differential is much smaller than it used
to be between Martin and the smaller makers such as Taylor and Santa Cruz.
There are a lot of folks making some fine guitars now.  

As for prices, you can go to New York and buy at 30% off list and have it 
shipped to you avoiding the sales tax (this will also allow you to play more
instruments).  Music Emporium give 25% off then adds 5% MA tax.  Depends on 
how expensive a guitar you are buying and how much you are into this.  Then 
there is mail-order.  You can get 40% off list with the right to return the
instrument for the cost of the shipping.  If you don't hear a big difference
in individual instrument from one maker, this could be the way to go. 
Of course, your mileage may vary.

Jim

    Thanks for all the replies so far!
    
    So the "grand concert" size is equivalent to the Martin 0 series? I
    would have thought the 0 series would be smaller then the Taylor "grand
    concert" size guitars I saw at McDuffs. Also I wasn't aware of an
    "auditorium" size guitar.
    
    Anyone know off-hand what an HD-28 costs new these days at the Music
    Emporium? How about the OM-28?
    
    

Not quite right.  Here is the Martin size breakdown as I understand it:

J - Jumbo M (frontal size of the M with the depth of the D)
M- Grand Auditorium (slightly bigger frontal size than a D, but not as deep)
D - Dreadnought (the most common size)
000 - Auditorium -smaller than a D
OM - Orchestra Model - similar to the 000, but with 14 frets
00 - Grand Concert - smaller than a 000 or OM
Size 7 - seven eighths of a D
0 - Concert - smaller than a 00
Size 1 - smaller than the Concert
Size 2 - smaller than the Size 1
Size 2 1/2 - smaller than the Size 2
Size 3 - smaller than the Size 2 1/2
Size 3 1/2 - smaller than the Size 3
Size 4 - smaller than the Size 3 1/2
Size 5 - smaller than the Size 4
Size 1/2 - smaller than the Size 5
Size 1/4 - smaller than the Size 1/2
	(we're talkin' SMALL here, like less than 9" wide with a 17" scale)

So there is more than you probably ever wanted to know.  Mostly you will see
Ds, 000s and some OMs with a few Ms and Js thrown in.

Jim 

If you're looking at the Music Emporium, you might also want to test-drive
one of Eric Schoenberg's guitars (under his name, I think they're constructed
for him by Guild or Gibson - some "G" company).

As for dreadnaught vs. auditorium, I'm a firm believer in the auditorium size
(OM-28 or 000-xx) for fingerpicking. Much better overall tonal balance than
a dreadnaught, which has great low end but in overly heavy in the low end for
fingerpicking (great for bluegrass though). I may be prejudiced, though,
as the former owner of a 000-18 more recently upgraded to a custom OM-28.

The OM-28s have another advantage over your typical D series for finger-
picking in that its strings are a bit more wide-spaced (1 3/4" versus
1 11/16"). Of course, as fate would have it, I'm now primarily playing
my OM-28 as a flatpicked bluegrass guitar (Granite Grass, come see us at
the First Annual New England Bluegrass Festival on June 13 in Laconia NH),
and am wondering if I should really get a "proper" bluegrass guitar. This
one sounds wonderful, but with the wider string placement it's a bit harder
to play really fast.

    The OM/OOO distinction is somewhat cloudy.  The original OOO and
    D series guitars had 12-fret necks.  The OM (Orchestra Model)
    designation was orignally applied to all 14-fret models, including
    some D guitars.  The OM-28 achieved such notariety that OM is most
    frequently associated with OOO-sized bodies.  
    
    I believe all current OOO models have 14 fret necks.  The OOO-16
    (Martin's least expensive model) certainly is a 14-fret model.  It
    also has the longer scale length associated with the OM models.
    
    RE: Martin's being over priced.  I used to think this way too, but
    the only Martins that I had ever played were newer D-28s.
    D-28s require HEAVY flatpicking to bring out a good tone.  HD-28s
    are wonderful guitars, much better sounding (to me) than D-28s
    or D-35s.  Playing (and eventually buying) an HD-28 convinced me
    otherwise.  No offense to the noter who likes Yamahas, but I never
    played a Yamaha that was even in the same league.
    
    The action argument, as previously stated, really doesn't hold
    up-- just because the guitars come set up with high action doesn't
    mean that they need to stay that way (although you can certainly 
    argue that Martin might make the factory setup more in line with
    the average player's needs, or include two saddles with the guitar).
    FWIW, the action on my Martin is probably lower than the action on
    my Strat.
    
    RE: the inital request on advice on a guitar...
    A year ago, I was making the same quest.  I played a number of
    Guilds, Taylors and Martins.  I'm primarily a fingerpicker, so I
    was attracted to smaller body guitars.  But I also flatpick from
    time-to-time.  While I loved the OOO-sized guitars when fingerpicking,
    I was less pleased with them when I played with a pick.  I thought
    the Martin M series might be a good compromise.  But for me, it
    turned out to be exactly that-- a compromise (it didn't really 
    grab me on anything).   I couldn't find an OM-28, and was uncomfortable
    with ordering one without having the opportunity to play one.
    
    Since I couldn't find a OOO that met all of my requirements, I
    decided to start looking at dreadnaughts.  My top two favorites were
    a Taylor Dan Crary and a Martin HD-28.  I eventually chose the 
    Martin.
    
    The HD-28, with its lighter bracing responds well to finger-
    picking.  I find that light guage Martin Marquis strings tend to
    give it a nice, even, balanced tone.  It still sounds great flatpicked.
    I haven't regretted the choice one bit.
    
    Of course, your milage may very.  Alot depends on the style of music
    that you play, and your preferences on tone.
    
    Jim

    Thanks to all who replied!
    
    I went in to the Music Emporium on Saturday and spent a couple of hours
    playing everthing in the store before making up my mind. I played
    Martin's, Taylor's, Loudon's (sp), Guilds, everything! I went back and
    forth playing them and eliminating the ones that for wahtever reason
    didn't appeal to me. After all was said and done, which one did I
    buy...
    
    
    
    A Taylor Model 810. Beautiful guitar! It really does play like butter
    and the sound was the best overall I thought. I don't know what it was,
    but the only Martin HD-28 they had in stock sounded a bit dull to me.
    I really don't think it is suited to finger-picking (at least that
    particular one). Compared to the Taylor 810 it wasn't even close (to my
    ear anyway). The Taylor 810, although a dreadnought, sounded great when
    fingerpicked and simply exploded with sound when flatpicked.
    
    The workmanship on the Taylor is as impeccable as I've heard. It really
    appears flawless and I've gone over it with a fine tooth comb! Someday
    I hope to be able to afford a Taylor custom job!!
    
    So all in all, I think I found a GREAT guitar! I can't put the sucker 
    down when I'm home! :-)
    
    Thanks again for your replies! Anyone out there who hasn't checked out
    a Taylor yet, should!!!
    

    
    re: - i didn't say i "liked" the yamaha's, only that they were cheap
    and blew all d-28's out the door. Curiously, Yamaha quickly dropped
    this model (can't even remember the name) and replaced it with better
    looking, lousy sounding models.  I wouldn't buy one now, but 20 years
    ago, they fit my wallet.
    
    I'll repeat - IMO, Martin does not make a nice sounding guitar until
    you get into the higher model numbers.  I'd pick a Taylor over a Martin
    any day. I'm also rather impressed with a few new Guilds I've tried
    lately - i always hated Guilds, but if you have the $$'s there are
    some nices ones to be had.
    
    bob

    Elderly Instruments in Lansing, Michigan is reputed to be the world's
    largest volume Martin dealer.  Their routine discount is 40% off list.
    That means you pay less than the list price.  :7)  That also means that
    their guitars sound better because you can afford a better one.  :7)
    It also means you have money left over to buy a capo with.  :7)
    
    I understand that there are other dealers who offer similar discounts
    but (a) I didn't recall if any had been mentioned yet, and (b) I am a
    very satisfied customer of Elderly's.  I live about an hour away, and
    visit often.
    
    Call them at 517-372-7880.
    \Gary
    
    I've also seen Guilds, Taylors, and Santa Cruz' there, as well as
    Nationals, Dobros, etc... plus some hand-made units.

For what it's worth, Taylor's are without doubt the nicest sounding
dreadnaughts I've ever heard...

Throat cutting material...

Way expensive, (the ones I saw were all over $1100) but Man-o-man, 
what tone...

I'v not played too many martins, cept a 12 string, it's nice, real nice.

    Even though I love my Martin, Taylor's are definitely great sounding
    guitars.  It was a tough choice between the HD-28 I bought and the
    Taylor Dan Crary that I was also looking at.  I finally decided on the
    Martin.
    
    Strangely enough, I later tried out another Dan Crary that I didn't
    like at all... it just didn't have the same level of resonance.  I
    guess that's all part of the magic of wood.  (FWIW, I played some
    Martins that lacked that special tone, too).
    
    I recently played a Taylor 410 (I think: the low cost mahogany
    dreadnaught) and was very impressed with it.  List is under $1000
    (barely).
    
    Jim

    When I was searching I bet I played 15 to 20 Martin D28's and HD28
    untill I landed on the one that I purchased.  Each one definatly has a
    personality of its own which may or may not be to your liking.
                           
    Bruce (Who is still in love with his three year old HD28 that keeps
    getting better with age)