Conference napalm::guitar

    Dave,
    	Gimme a coupla days and I'll have some names, addresses and numbers
    that'll answer most of your questions.
    
    Trust me, I'm a qualified moocher,
    
    Speak soon,
    
    Phil

    There are a number of companies offering MIDI files of popular songs.
    They ship you a disk, you plug it in, and (with some tweaking) a 
    pretty decent cover of the tune comes out of a synth. It can then be
    taped. (I'm talking only the logistics, the legalities are another
    issue...)
    
    Or, even a modestly equipped MIDI studio should be able to sequence
    "custom" tunes for you. I've been working as the "third person in a 
    duo" for a couple years. They call me up, tell me what they'd like,
    and I sequence the tracks they DON'T want to play "live", not unlike
    "Music Minus One"...
    
    Edd

Here's our approach:

If your handy with a drum machine, and can pluck a few tunes out
on a bass, consider this...

Pick yer self up a decent drum machine.  (Around these parts, 
Massachusettes..) the second hand flyiers are CHCUK FULL of em...)  
Pick up a decent  Bass (read: don't have to be pretty, make it a 
cheap one as long as it's playable)

Program your drums to the tunes you want....

Then, with a mixer, and a decent tape deck, record the
Drums.  While the drums are recording, plug the bass into
another channel of the mixer, and play the bass lines along with
the drum machine.  Record the BAss and Drums in one pass.  Yer done!

Play with levels, compression, etc... until you start getting a
reasonable mix, note the settings you use, and use those
settings for every  song.

Finished product:  A casset tape with Bass/Drums. that you can play/sing 
along with.

What you need to do this:

	1: A mixer (at least a 4 channel.  6 is better)
	2: A small p/a system, unless the clubs supply a house system
	  (Compression is nice, probably want some effects for the
	  whole thing,,, reverb, delay..)
	3: A cheap bass, only used for recording.	
	4: A good tape deck, preferrably a dual-deck unnit.
	5: A good drum Machine
	6: Your favorite Guitar/Amp combo,
	7: And lastely, YOU!

With this approach, you don't need a midi set up (you do need a drum
machine,, but that's as far as it goes.)  Now, it's not A BAND sound
with A BAND'S dynamics.  It is about as close to a sequencing setup
that you can get, without a sequencer!!!  :)

One of the drawbacks with midi is if it screws up, your dead, and the
stuff is just too expensive to have backup gear.  With this approach,
a backup tape deck, and a backup of your casset (using the dual-deck
to make copies of your masters) is all you need to cover yourself in the
event of equipment failure.  You do loose some of the nice features that
a midi network and all that sequncing gives you.  But if all your
looking to do is have a bass and drum track going on behind you,,, 

Take this as first hand experience.  We've (myslef, and another guitar
player I work with) have been doing this since Novemeber.  It WORKS!
It's EASY!  It's not all that expensive...

    Noter Jens Moller has been using 4-track backing tapes (in addition to
    sequences) with his duo for several years.  You might drop him a line
    and I'm sure he'd be happy to discuss them with you.
    
    He's at CSC32::MOLLER.
    
    Greg

Re: previous replies,

Thanks folks, some good ideas for me here.

What could I do with say, two cassette players ie. taping from one to the other,
would this sound OK ? I have Dbx on mine and could probably borrow a second.

What If I wanted drums/bass/rhythm ?

Re: .1   would these tapes sound "real" or synthesised ?  are they available 
         in the UK ?

regards,

Dave

<<What could I do with say, two cassette players ie. taping from one to the other,
<<would this sound OK ? I have Dbx on mine and could probably borrow a second.


Hmm, not sure what you're getting at here..

Would this be for COPYING, or for addtional dubbing ?

As in, recording, Bass/Drums/Rythm...

If that is the case, then I should think you'd require a simul-synch
multi-track casset recorder, or a small reel to reel multi-track
configuration.  May be more effective at that point, to get into
sequencing where you have alot more available rythm possibilities.
(Keys, horns, strings..)

I'd highly recommend Trycho Tunes in Anaheim, California. They have an 
extensive library of songs, and can make them available in cassette 
forms (as well as MIDI sequences). I've bought a number of sequences 
from them and have been very happy.

I played in a trio for three years that used "backing tracks". For the 
first year, we used dbx tapes. This worked out fairly well, as long as 
you are willing to accept the limitations. Tapes do wear out with 
heavy use: after six months or so, we'd notice that the quality of the 
sound got progressively worse, including dropouts, etc. Also, you're 
stuck with the choice of either having separate tapes for each song or 
having predetermined sets of music. (We compromised and created tapes 
with 4-5 songs - half-sets that we could mix and match.)

I finally broke down and spent some money to buy a sequencer and some 
synth modules and entered the world of MIDI. After a painful 
adjustment period and learning curve, we emerged as a full-fledged 
MIDI trio. This was infinitely better in the long run for us. We could 
do requests on the fly, change the order of songs in a set at random, 
and the sound was always CD-quality.

-Dan

    Midi is clearly the way to go..
    
    One needs to invest time and money though.
    
    Typically, (just for the sake of discussion) Isn't there
    about 40 to 50 some odd hours, maybe more, involved in 
    an average sequence ?
    
    /r

There was at least one record of this sort put out by
the Ventures back in '63-'66. I'm sure it would be next
to impossible to find though. As I remember it was pretty
well done with the lead guitar on a channel all by itself
so you could pan it off with the balance control and
play the part yourself. There was also sheet music for
all the parts.

    re: Pelkey...
    
    You've heard some of my "finished" sequences with drums, bass, piano,
    horns, etc... My experience (which pretty much paralells that of other
    MIDIots) is that a sequence can tale approximately 10 hours per minute
    to produce, not including analog recording/mixing.
    
    Basic drum/bass sequences take less time, averaging maybe an hour per
    minute. My sequence of "Deacon Blues" is approaching 200 hours easily
    and is still unfinished...
    
    Edd

>    
>    Basic drum/bass sequences take less time, averaging maybe an hour per
>    minute. My sequence of "Deacon Blues" is approaching 200 hours easily
>    and is still unfinished...
    
Edd,

	You are kidding !!!

Well, since my objective is to get a few dozen backing tracks together, then 
by using this method I should be ready by the year 2010!!

I can see the headlines......

"DECREPID KNACKERED MUSO DIES BEFORE LIFE'S WORK IS PERFORMED"

Astounded crowds gasped as 94 year old Dave Litten had a heart attack during 
the opening bars of "Walk Don't Run". It was later discovered that a freak 
magnetic storm had performed data compression on the complex bass/drum 
sequences and Dave had attempted to play at 800 beats per minute.

His pacemaker went into spasm and it took surgeons 4 hours to extricate his
fingers from the strings. 

Well, it is friday afternoon.........have a good weekend!!

Dave 

    Well, Edd is a bit of a perfectionist so he takes lotsa time on his
    sequences.  He also ends up with very well done sequences...
    
    If you can live with less than exact note-for-note duplication of the
    parts off the record, and slightly cliche drum and bass parts, then you
    can accomplish the task in considerably less time. 
    
    There are even computer tools nowadays that will take a chord
    progression as an input, you tell it what style the song is to be
    played in (heavy metal, jazz, reggae, march, etc.) and it spits out a
    bass line, drum part and chordal accompaniment. 
    
    So the tradeoff is time vs. accuracy of reproduction. 
    
    						Brian 

    The "Deacon Blues" example was offered as an extreme example as to
    how long it could take. There are two complex ensemble horn lines
    in the tune, each one requiring editing to push them forward in time
    just a little bit. Then each note is edited for velocity and timing.
    
    Brian's right, you can get acceptable sequences in much less time, but
    pay the price of sounding "generic"...
    
    Edd

Don't forget....if your goal is to quickly put together a night's 
worth of cover tunes and play out, there are several places you can 
buy sequences from.

In my opinion, the two best are Trycho Tunes and Tran Tracks. Any copy 
of Keyboard or Electronic Musician will have ads for these two places 
in the classifieds section.

I'd rather spend my time sequencing original tunes...

-Dan

    
    is this gonna a be a note-fer-note cover Edd? Any additional magic to
    add to one of my all time favorite song?

    > Any additional magic...?
    
    Yeah, I set it to a disco beat. :^)
    
    Seriously, the horn lines are what intrigued me. I've got a copy of
    the score, including a two part horn reduction. It was a great place
    to start but still needed lots of work. I broke the horns into 6
    seperate channels so I could time and articulate each one individually.
    
    Even something as "simple" as sliding the left hand down the neck of a
    bass requires getting EVERY note to sound individually without sounding
    like each one was played with the right hand. A pitch bend won't cut
    it...
    
    The guitar is the hardest part to sequence. I could probably use six
    channels on that. (Or borrow a guitar controller!)
    
    Edd

	Does anyone know of a company called Tape Services in
	New Hampshire somewhere?  They make blank tapes of
	various lengths.  I ordered from them a few years ago
	and can't find my info on them anywhere!!

	Help...  thanks, Tom

    Yes, they're in Londonderry, NH and I use them for the db wilfred band.
    
    I like these guys.  Even though I'm not exactly a volume customer, I'm
    always treated with respect and they've even stayed late so that I
    could pick up a measly 20 tapes without having to take time off work.
    
    I highly recommend them.
    
    Their phone number is (603) 425-2202.

    
    	Great!! Thanks, Dave!  I also highly recommend them - they're
    	as friendly as can be and send the tapes out the same day most
    	times.  
    
    	Just ordered 30 more (and saved your note!!)
    
    	Tom