Conference napalm::guitar

I tried it for about a year after many years of semi-pro'ing.
This was on the basis of staying on the dole (i.e. not taking any money
for playing) while trying to get a record deal, doing original material.
This was during the late 70's "new wave" era. We did get a single out (with
an unknown label); it got a few plays on Radio 1, sold ok locally with our
following, and disappeared.

I gave it up because I was sick of being skint! One week we were doing
some London gigs and I was literally living off milk and alcohol (as per
Dr Feelgood). I had reached the point where the enjoyment of what I was doing
had eroded beyond the point where it was worth suffering the crap living
standards. Our bass player at the time continued in the biz and has been on
several World tours with Joan Armatrading, amongst other gigs and sessions.

I think a lot depends how much you really want to do it, how many
compromises you are prepared to make, and how many options are open to you.
A lot of the people you see on TV making a living at music would not be able
to get or hold down a job at DEC or elsewhere, and I'm sure this concentrates
their minds somewhat. i.e. they're much more desperate than you are.

Competition for the "bread and butter" musical jobs e.g. resident band
at nightclub, summer seasons, panto etc. is also fierce and not that well-paid.

Hope this is not too depressing a response...

    Some of us can't afford to.  Just last night I was playing with a
    guitarist who told me he never made more than $10,000 a year when he
    was doing music full-time.  A person in the club asked me why I didn't
    do it full time, I explained that at the rate the club paid us, I would
    have to do about 25 gigs a week to match my DEC paycheck, never mind
    the bennies.
    
    It *is* possible to be a successful musician and not quit your day job,
    though.  OK, maybe not as a rock and roller, but at one point the
    bluegrass band Seldom Scene, generally acknowledged as among the top in
    their field, consisted of a college profressor, a cartographer for the
    National Geographic Society, a cartoonist and an Army surgeon!  Jazz
    great Tal Farlow supported himself for many years working in NJ as a
    sign painter.  Famed American composer Charles Ives was an insurance
    executive who wrote music strictly as a hobby.
    
    						Brian

    Oh no...1992 rung in with a "Making it big" discussion!!  8^)
    
    When I was 19, I wanted to "make it big", but I soon realized how
    much of a 'shot in the dark' it was, and that I like living a very
    uppity lifestyle.  I wasn't into living the 'starving and poor 
    musician' trip..I like the finer things in life, so a professional
    career making some solid $$$ was a sure choice.
    
    I don't think, in retrospect, I've lost anything by that decision.

      I like playing to ENJOY playing and make EXTRA money. My gig revenue
    barely covers my GTS attacks much less my mortgage and taste for more
    than bread and water. My big decisions these days are how far GB do
    I want to go, if at all, at the expense of really enjoying what I play.
    So far I'm leaning toward enjoyment with some amount money coming in.
      I might double up on bands and do a little of both. As far as making
    it big, I think one of the things you have to do is get in while you're
    young and as '92 has rolled in, I'm further away from that criteria!
    But I'll keep practicing and playing.
    
      re: .a few back - Hey Brian R! Was that Mike Dukes you were referring
    to as a full time musician. I saw you were doing some more gigs with
    him.
    
    							-B()()M-

	I've got no interest myself in trying to "make it big". I am
	however making plans to file an application to study full time
	at Berklee so that I can get a music degree. My situation is
	probably a lot different than that of the young single guy with
	no other skills that wants to be a rock and roll star. I have
	a wife that's a software engineer making a fair chunk of change
	more that what we make here at DEC and we've been saving our
	pennies diligently enough that when I drop out of engineering I'll
	have more than a year's salary packed away. We've stayed out of
	the yankee real estate market so there's no mortgage.

	So what am I getting at? My parents said "Do all the music you
	want but you'd best have something to fall back on." I'll do
	a couple of years of music school with an eye towards making
	work doing film or television scoring. With a very high level of
	computer literacy and 10 years of UNIX experience I'll get by if
	that falls apart.

	There are hundreds of careers working with music and performing
	on a stage is only the tip of the iceberg. I think Mike Heiser
	posted a list of the various careers back around September of '90.

	Step #1 - learn to read and write music.

    I agree with the last few replies heartily. I will add that for the 
    three years that I was full-time professional, I made great money 
    (no benefits of course) but was never ever home long enough to do 
    anything more than my laundry (and clean the spoiled food out of the  
    refrigerator). Also...the Dr. Feelgood diet plan is real taxing! I'm
    31 yrs. old, but my liver's about 60+. It's a tough way!
    
    Scotty

    
    I did it full-time from '72 through '79, doing everything I could, from
    chamber and symphony work to session gigs, to roadwork on the college &
    club circuit. I'd find myself in places like Lake Congamond, MA and
    Watervliet, NY trying to survive on a peanut-butter & honey sandwich and 
    stale beer (and stale Genny Cream, at that X-{). I was nearly killed in
    a band truck wreck in central NJ. I did scribe & transcription work when 
    I wasn't playing, and stopped short of selling blood in the interim.
    
    I just surrounded myself with music, trying to make a living. Sometimes
    were better than others, but at no time did I make anything resembling
    good money. At that time, though, there was always tomorrow, always
    a chance to be heard, always a chance that the strokes and promises
    would turn to a shot at something substantial. It never happened. 
    
    But, in conversation, it comes up just about every time, i.e. "Do you 
    regret it ?"
    
    No. Except for the accident, I don't regret it at all. I'm glad that 
    I did what I thought I had to do--play when where and however I could. 
    I met some great people, played some tremendous gigs, and encountered
    a lot of scum and 'jobs from hell', too. But as long as there was the 
    glimmer of something promising in the next roadstand, in the next session, 
    in the next college town, one foot just kept going numbly in front of the 
    other.
    
    Peter 
    
    PS...and the best groupies were in Albany, NY.
    
    

    
    Thanks for the responses...just one small nit....I never said I wanted
    to be a rock and roll star, I never said I wanted to hit the big time.
    I wanted to find out how feasable it is to make a living at doing the
    music thing, as I said, just enough to cover the bills.
    
    Also slight rathole re -1....did you really work on the xb-70? Bitchin'
    aircraft!
    
    J

    Back in '73 I got fired from my job as a truck driver making the 
    princely sum of $4 an hour. I thought I was going to die from lack
    of income.
    
    ...so I joined a GB band as a bass player. The band got $200 a gig
    and split it 4 ways. We gigged every weekend, weddings and such during
    the day, lounge gigs at night. Sometimes we had 6 gigs a week.
    
    Being 19, and immortal, I had no need for insurance (!). My car was
    paid for, rent was cheap. I lived like a (tax-free) king.
    
    That lasted for about a year and I decided to get a real job... just
    something about "money for nothing" seeming "too good to be true".
    
    Edd

    
    Me again, sorry if I shot off at the mouth on my last reply, I just
    want to get across that I am not aiming at fame and fortune, not even
    just playing to people. There is also songwriting, doing music for
    T.V., commercials, radio jingles....all sorts of ways to make money
    *to live by* but by playing/writing music......please don't write me
    off	as a teenage (I ain't) wannabee....
    
    J

    
    	For me, this is a tough question...
    
    
    	
    	Since I began my teens, the only thing I ever could picture doing
    for the rest of my life and being happy was making music. The thought
    of doing anything else frightened me, because there is nothing else
    in this life that comes close to making me feel the way music does.
    When I wasn't making enough money from gigs to survive, I worked
    at record stores, because at least that kept me around music and
    music fans when I couldn't be playing music myself.
    
    	Sure, I wanted to make it big-- still do, in my heart-- but that
    wasn't REALLY what it was all about; it's about being able to work
    hard on your creations, and then present them to as many people as
    possible, who will hopefully enjoy what you've done. It's the sharing
    between artist and audience that is the real reward. Obviously, by
    "making it big", you are extending that to the ultimate end-- having
    your music heard & shared by as many people as possible. But there's
    nothing wrong with playing to smaller audiences, appealing to a
    "cult" following, being heard only on college radio, etc.; it might
    be small success when compared to Madonna, but that's not the only
    yardstick to measure yourself against.
    
    	If I could have done it, I'd have gone out on the road then, and
    I'd still be out there now, slugging away, playing to whoever would
    listen and enjoying whatever success would come. My big problem was
    that I had ANOTHER dream....
    
    
    	I wanted to be in love.
    
    
    	I always wanted to share my life with someone, to grow old with
    someone, to have a family. In reality, (at least in MY view of reality)
    there is nothing more important in life than love... that's what it's
    all about. There's nothing more prized than true love, there's nothing
    more important you can do than to love your children. As wonderful as
    the experience of music may be, it doesn't beat love. When the right
    person came along, I was never has happy as I was on the day I married
    her. Since then, we've had 2 beautiful children (the best 2 kids in
    the world, by the way... but I'm biased...).
    
    	So that was my problem... I basically had to choose which dream
    to persue. I chose to go with the most valuable, important option...
    I began my family. Part of that meant getting a "real" job with good
    benefits and decent pay. So I started my carrer at DEC, and my career 
    in music got put on the back-burner... but NOT forgotten.
    
    	
    	Soon, I hope to get the right musicians together, and give it all
    I got... not neccessarily to "make it big", but to at least get things
    going on a level I can feel good about... but my family will remain
    a priority. I'm driven to do music, I can't stop, I'll never be 
    happy if I can't do it. At the same time, it would be the greatest 
    loss in the world if I tore apart my family. It's a tough balance
    to maintain, and I'm still not sure how to do it. I'm very lucky in
    that my wife believes in me, and once she gets her career together
    she is more than willing to take on the responsibility of being our
    main source of income. We are also realistic and we're not looking
    for a life of luxury... a fancy house, fancy cars, etc. are not part 
    of our plans.
    
    
    	Anyway... sorry for the long-winded life story... I just wanted to
    add my piece to this debate.
    
    
    
    
    Brad Page

    
    	short of being very lucky and making mega-bucks, get a day job and
    use the other time for music. i don't like to remember at all what it
    was like with a wife, baby, and measly club earnings.
    
    	i'm playing lots these days, enjoying it completely, and i don't
    care whether its a pay gig or not. Just havin a lot of fun...
    
    	bob
    

    
    
    Ok I can see a general picture...play ya music but keep a day job.
    
    That seems fair advice for people with commitments but I don't/won't
    have any, I'm not gonna have any kids unless the world does a 180
    degree turn, I ain't gonna get married, I don't want a mortgage. Mainly
    because I am a selfish SOB and I know I couldn't devote that much of me
    to something else.
    
    Music is something I have discovered that I truly love and I don't want
    to rot in this office! The advice about getting some qualifications
    sounds good.....but don't worry I'm not gonna go off with any half
    cocked ideas!
    
    J
    

I'm still working at it. Got a pretty good originals band going and if a 
contract opportunity comes up I'll be leaving DEC for sure, (especially 
since there is absolutely no job security here anymore and I could get
more $ working for a customer at this point). We're still beginning to get
ourselves ready at this point, but '92 should be our year to get rolling.
We're getting major encouragement from one of the largest FM stations here
and hopefully, we'll get some support as well.

If nothing happens, we'll still have made some great music.

dbii

I would second the "learn to sightread" recommendation.    
Also, learn how to read band charts (they have their own subtleties,
a superset of standard notation).

If you truly have no commitments, you could then do the sort of work
my brother does. He's been on a cruise ship for about 3 or 4 years
playing keyboards, and starts another world cruise next week (come to think
of it, Southampton's quite handy for you in Basingstoke, innit). 
Bear in mind though, you have to be quite good. Also, playing stuff you don't
like repeatedly could get as tedious as a standard dayjob.

re: courses, there's a specialist Music College up here in Leeds
if you're interested.

	Look at note 1929. Mike's posting of a whole slew of music-related
	careers is in there as well as some other interesting stuff.

	Sight-reading.... great term. It's like Hearing-listenting. 8*)

    
    re .14...
    
    No one's saying you're a wannabee...if you were, you wouldn't be going
    through the soul-searching that you obviously are...
    
    But, there is an important thread running through here that you've got
    to take to heart...no matter how dedicated you are, how passionately you 
    love the art, how tracked you've got your life to prepare for your
    career (i.e. no wife, no kids, no mortgage, etc.) there -can- always be 
    something that will come up and compromise it. And you can't predict
    whether or not it will.
    
    After several years, you may be in a comfortable position. Or, you may 
    not have enough money to do some of the things you'd like (say putting
    some aside for retirement), or even -have- to do, (i.e. medical bills). 
    That can cause you some severe second-thoughts down the road.
    
    Among us there are many who live, breathe, eat, drink music. It's 
    passion, but unfortunately, no guarantee that it's ever enough to make 
    you happy or secure enough to be glad you chose it. Only you can decide
    that. If you're going to make it a sole-source career, you just cannot 
    be afraid, daunted or intimidated of the future...the worst thing about 
    music is that, unless you are very fortunate, there's far less security 
    than a day gig. Anything can and probably will happen, and there is no 
    guarantee that you'll be in a safe position to deal with it. 
     
    But, if, as another noter said, you're 'young and immortal', this is
    the time for you to give it a bash. Whether or not it is working out
    will be entirely up to you (and not up to circumstance), and if not,
    chances are better that you still can land on your feet with something
    else, if you want to. Just make sure to lay in a supply of Spaghetti-Os, 
    peanut butter and coffee (lots of coffee) before you can the day job.
    
    I use my job to support my passion for playing music. Any folks I meet 
    and work with are the same. And for me, it works. I don't
    play as often, but when I do, it feels just as wonderful...even better
    since playing becomes that much more special. And the best part....I can 
    play whatever the hell I want.  
    
    Peter
    
    PS...the p-name is a quote from 'Lumpy Gravy', only.

    -2
    
    Fright Reading, man! 

  If you get paid to play you are a pro.......
    
                                              
>    why are you still working for DEC? Have any of you tried to
>    make a living through your music? Have you given up? 
>    Anybody tried? Give me your thoughts.

* Still working at DEC? Well reality is it takes more than 10k a year
to support a family. I played part time(weekends)from 68 to 70,I made a 
living(if you want to call it that)from 71 to 73 playing in covers bands. I 
spent four years in a college studying music composition,4 years teaching,
playing and working in the music retail and repair buisnesses. Grand total 
I've got around a quarter of century invested in doing something I enjoy.
  The only time I felt and showed a profit was when I was doing three 
different "musical" jobs in a week and that was a difficult reality to
live or remain constant.(Brian Rost still seems to be doing more!!!!)  
  
  But if anything you need to realize is that these days competition is at
an all time high for the premium "music" career jobs.

Keep your straight job if you can,because it will provide you more financial 
oppurtunities in the future for musical endevors.....
  Oh BTW I figure I got another quarter century of music to enjoy.... :^)
 I still enjoy playing and writing today on my own terms,and I play what I
want,when I want.....   

>	I've got no interest myself in trying to "make it big". I am
>	however making plans to file an application to study full time
>	at Berklee so that I can get a music degree. 


Why? The music degree(I assume a BA in Composition?)won't gaurantee you a
job when you get out. There is nothing that is taught at Berklee that you 
can't "motivate" yourself to learn out of book's or private study with the 
right instructor. Unless it's the intense music environment at Berklee that
you want to be exposed to?  

>	Step #1 - learn to read and write music.

good advice....

 I really think Brad Page made some real important points also...ditto!!!! 

							Rick

Ps. take a day off and go home and play all day!!!!!

    
    Only two ways I'd go that route and both are in the GB realm.
    
    First - a cruise ship in the Caribbean!!  Either in the ballroom
    band or in a small 3 piece in the smaller lounge.
    
    Second - a "Marriot" type band like those that are (used to be?) at
    the Worcester Marriot.  Wednesday thru Sunday for a week or a month
    at a time touring the country.
    
    Both are put together by agencies who handle just about everything.
    
    I could get into those lifestyles for a bit...
    
    Tom
    

	re: -.2 about doing Berklee....

	My interest is mostly in the intensity of the experience. I
	don't have a degree in anything now and I'm not hurting so a
	degree in music won't hurt me any. The major part of the
	school thing is close contact with other players on a daily
	basis - something which my summer experience at NGSW showed
	me was very important for my musical growth. As far as the
	music theory, reading, etc. I expect to be able to place well
	into the curriculum because I've been studying hard for a few
	years now.

	Somehow I've gotten it into my head that being as well trained
	in music is like being well trained in anything else. From
	there it's hard work, attitude and networking.

    I think it's worth considering what the implications of depending on
    music as a sole source of income are. Even if you don't have a family,
    and keeps your needs to a minimum, the reality is that very few
    musicians are making enough to live comfortably. By "live comfortably"
    I don't mean you live in a palace and drive a Mercedes. I mean that you
    can afford to go to the doctor when you're sick, you get to take a few
    weeks vacation a year in which you can really relax, and you don't have
    to worry about being on the street when you have to retire. I consider
    things like that kind of basic to *any* lifestyle, although they are
    frequently overlooked by the young and restless.
    
    Practically all of the professional musicians I know (including myself,
    when I was a full-time professional) live from gig to gig. This not
    only means that you have a lot of financial and social pressures, it
    also means that you become something of a "musical prostitute". That
    probably sounds more negative than I really mean it, but the point is,
    you stop playing because you enjoy it, you play because you have to pay
    for your next meal. As a result, you start making a lot of compromises.
    For example, maybe you don't really get off on playing covers, but if
    the right job comes along...
    
    For myself, I eventually came to the realization that I was living my
    dream of being a full-time musician, but somehow it wasn't as sweet as
    it was supposed to be. I decided I'd rather have another source of
    income so I could be more selective about what I played, when I played,
    and who I played with. A lot of the other noters seem to have gone
    through the same thing.
    
    I don't want to knock people who are playing full-time, and doing
    whatever they have to in order to survive. I actually have some respect
    for them, because I know they're doing what they love to do. But I have
    no regrets about keeping music as a part-time activity. I feel better
    about it when I do play, and I've come to terms with myself about it.
    I wish life was different, but it ain't. Wishing can't make it so.
    (Sounds like a good title for a song - maybe I'll quit my job and try
    to get the big contract...)
    
    - Ram

I think most of it boils right down to desire.

as in; How much does one desire to make a go at this ?

and- I don't think it has as much to do with talent as it does with
deisre, and pursuit.

With me, as much as I enjoy playing, I don't think I'm hungry enough 
over it to make this a career.

I can also point out the security part of it as well.

I had to face up a long time ago..  It's hard to expect someone to
pay a person, roughly the same salaray, to play a geetar, as they
would to undertake some of the responsibilities we here at DEC,
and similar companies like DEC, have as part of our job.

I think we all, at one point in our life, visualize ourselfs as successful
musicians..  Some follow the vision, and perhaps a small percentage actually
make it happen.  That's great, hey, someone has to.  But music is
mainly a here today, gone tomorrow thing...  Families are here today,
and here tomorrow.  And given the choice, I'll take the security of my
family anyday over the thrill of playing for my bread.. 

I'm of the book that says that percentage offers to narrow a margine.

I also happen to think that one should never take something they purely
enjoy, and turn it into their sole source of income.

I've played in a lot of bands, worked a lot of well paying jobs, and had
a lot of fun.  I believe that I, as well as hundreds of other musicians
who peruse this file, are defeintely talented enough to keep up
with just about anyone out there today... But, on the converse side, I'm 
just as happy to say that I'm glad I made the choices I made a long time ago
concerning this, and wouldn't change any of those decisions today...

    re .22
    
    	It's too bad you can't make that intensity happen locally....
    it just seems an awful price to pay for an environment.... btw
    what is NGSW?  
    
    							Rick
    

    I have never made a red cent playing music, and am not particularly
    likely to either due to my tastes in what I like to play.  Now, that's
    not to say that I'd turn down an opportunity to make a living in a
    music related career if I had the chance, but the extreme coincidences
    that would require make it nearly impossible.
    
    Having said that, Jason, I think that you may be setting yourself up to
    receive a negative viewpoint on making a living in music simply because
    of the environment in which you're asking the question.  We are all
    here working for DEC because, for one reason or another, we do not
    believe a career in music can support us.  Even those that have worked in
    the music industry in the past have resigned themselves to this.  It
    seems only natural that you will receive a negative view of the ability
    to be financially successful (and stable) working as a musician. 
    Perhaps you'd get a more optimistic viewpoint on the possibility of
    doing that by talking to people who are successful at doing it.
    
    I have absolutly no intention of offending anyone who's voiced their
    opinion on this here, just saying that by the sheer nature of the work
    you *now* do, you are stating a view biased against making a living in
    music.  I'm just as guilty as any of you...
    
    Face it, many people love the arts (not just music, this holds true for
    other things as well) and would love to make their career in the arts. 
    That makes it a popular job and will keep the competation high for the
    available positions.  If you can compete, then it's *possible* to do,
    that doesn't mean it'll be easy (or even that you'll enjoy actually
    doing it once you get that gig).
    
    Greg

    I've never been a pro although I make a few pounds playing in a cover
    band in local clubs and pubs around my home town here in the UK, but I
    know a man who is. An aquaintance ( couldn't call him a friend) is a
    guy called Chris Simpson who writes for and fronts a Folk/rock band
    called Magna Carta. Back in the 70's he made the 'Big Time', had major
    album success and was compared in the UK music press to Paul Simon.
    Played the Royal Albert Hall, toured the world etc made the millionaire
    status. Then for various reasons, including Elton John poaching his
    guitar player Davey Johnson, changing musical tastes and so on his
    popularity declined. He still makes a living from music, cut a new
    album about 3 years ago, gets occasional national radio air-play, but
    now plays the same venues I do, i.e. country pubs and clubs. He's had
    to supplement his income by doing 'Day Jobs' of all sorts just to keep
    body & soul together. I guess this illustrates a lot of the points
    other people have made in this topic, you make your own choices about
    what you want to do with your life, is it better to have tried and
    failed than never tried at all ( I think someone said that before
    somewhere ?) or to be a 'Has Been' rather than a 'Never Was'? 
    
    For me I just keep playing for the fun of it, if it got to be that it
    wasn't fun anymore I wouldn't do it, mind you there ain't as much fun
    in DEC as there used to be but I do have a mortgage and kids an all.
    
    Richard Bell

    I have no illusions about being a great guitar player, but I do feel
    that I could make a living playing music.  The chances are very slim,
    however, that I could make a good living playing MY music (the stuff
    that I write).  Most of this has been said before, but there are a
    number of reasons that I am working at Digital instead of trying to
    "make it" in the music business:
    
        o A marriage to a lady who means more to me than anything else
          in this world.
    
        o A paycheck that comes every week
    
        o The stability and security provided by a regular job and a
          home.
    
        o It takes more than talent and hard work to make it big.  It
          takes proper marketing and a tremendous amount of luck.  Look
          at Bonnie Raitt (sp?)...   After over 20 years of touring and
          albums, she has a top selling album and wins a grammy.  What
          is she doing differently than before?
    
    My main reason, however, is that I really LIKE designing and 
    developing software.  My job is challenging and rewarding.  And in
    all honesty, I am a better software engineer than I am a musician.  
    I do not consider my chosen profession as a compromise.  Even if
    I were a successful professional musician, I would be playing with
    software on the side.
    
    Another advantage of working at DEC is that I've yet to see a fight
    among project members over who gets the development machine after the
    project breaks up.  
    
    Jim
    

    
    
    If all of the part-time musicians with good day jobs were to quit their
    jobs and play music full-time, all of the music stores would soon
    close!  Equipment manufacturers would be having mass layoffs!
    
    The entire industry is based on selling expensive equipment to people
    like us who can afford it.  How many MP-1s  would Ada sell to guitar
    players making 10 grand a year?
    
    Kevin
    

    
    
    	Aha so my other choice is find a day job that I love!!! Any ideas?
    	I loved this job to death for 4 years......right until I bought my	
    	guitar.............
    
    
    	Hmmm...astronaut? Pilot? Millionaire playboy??? Yeh I like the
    	sound of the last one! 
    
    	J :-)
    

	NGSW is the National Summer Guitar Workshop. It's summer camp
	for guitar players. They operate for 6 or 8 weeks over the
	summer on the campus of the Canterbury School outside Danbury,
	CT. Maybe if I'm feeling ambitious I'll do a trip report in
	the NGSW note.

	Going to college after reaching substantial earning potential
	is nasty expensive - especially if opportunity cost is taken
	into account. Most of the motivation for me is to clear a long
	standing debt I have to myself. By my accounts, an investment
	in education is probably one of the best investments I can
	make even if it has no material payoff.

	I agree that desire (attitude) is a big part of it. When I had
	a major desire to do programming, I moved far and fast on my
	willingness to do whatever it took.

	In the US we have a book that comes out once a year called
	"What Color is Your Parachute?" that is about 1/2 exercises
	in self evaluation. Youse probably have something like it
	in Britville.

	Kevin's right - the big ticket items are for the amateurs with
	day jobs. Most of the guys in my area without the serious job
	don't even know what half of the high tech crap is....

    
    	
    	Well I've had a word with my guitar teacher and explained my
    feelings, he supports himself just with his music, (gigging, teaching
    ...and has recently had some...18/19 songs signed up by some big music
    publisher. Yeh he writes very good 'pop' songs)....and he said, right
    on J, lets get down to some serious learning. We are gonna work on
    various styles, C&W, Jazz standards etc and to work on my reading
    skills so I can at least take a shot at working in a backing band 
    (on a boat/nightclub whatever)....he has done both these things and 
    still has a *lot* of contacts. I am thinking about making this the year
    to see how good I can be with lots of work and if I do decide to take
    the chance I'm thinking of taking six months unpaid leave to see how it
    goes. I'm still sure it's what I wanna do but you don't shoot yerself
    in the foot if you can avoid it right?
    
    	Thanks for the insights.
    
    J

       Can you get a signed "contract" for "X" amount of money over the
    next year (good luck getting that)? Then remember that's ONLY one
    year...   what you do after that who knows? No benefits unless you can
    score one of those exceptional gigs, (I know a guy who plays for the
    Metropolitan Opera in NYC and he makes close to $85k). Playing music *may* 
    start to become a "job" and not the hobby you used to love (attitudes can 
    change when it becomes your primary job). The little things that bug you in
    your band now, become BIG problems when the going gets rough...  which
    is like ALL THE TIME! I went PRO (as in my ONLY job) for quite a while
    and all I got was grief from my wife. I never had alot of money to
    spend on anything and I was working 5 to 6 nights a week (with 3 to 4
    different bands)! I found myself getting REALLY upset when the club
    owner would decide to have us go home early because of the weather
    (either snow, or intense rain, or there weren't enough people in the
    club for him to make any money) and he didn't want to pay for a full
    night! I drove 1�hrs *one way* for $25.00 in my pocket! You will
    probably find yourself jumping at every chance (as I did) to get yourself 
    known within the "inner circle" of working musicians and jump everytime 
    someone tells you they have a possible recording contract (which turns 
    out to be a bunch of hot air and a waste of your time). Worse yet, cowrite
    a tune with a guy who then sells it (behind you back) to someone who 
    actually puts it on a record and then doesn't give you a penny for all 
    your work and by the way tells you he's moving and will send you a check...
    yeah right --->  SUCKER! 
       So you look long and hard at the situation and your wife adds insult to
    injury by asking you "when are you going to get a real job"???? Agents?
    Did someone mention agents? Are those the people that make money off of
    all your hard work? Promotional material? Oh the stuff that the agent
    tells you is necessary (and it is), but BTW you're going to have to
    pay for it? Video? They can be necessary, but they cost! $1k? $5k and
    up sometimes, but if you have connections.... Record contracts? You had 
    better have an album worth of material that the label (if you're one of 
    the lucky ones) wants to promote. Oh, you only have two songs you want to 
    put on a single, or sample CD? Sorry...  we're not interested. So then 
    after all your HARD WORK you get a contract (thank Gawd now we're on easy 
    street...   NOT) and it turns out (because they didn't want to tell you) 
    that they are using your record as a tax break for them. Oh, they didn't 
    tell you they wanted it to fail? They didn't tell you that they needed to 
    lose money because their company made too much money from some other 
    sources? OY VAY!!
    
    BTW, I didn't make these stories up and I did finally get a "steady job"
    and music if still a big part of my life, but it is part-time and I
    enjoy it ALOT more. These days you had best have alot of money set
    aside to pay the radio jocks to play your record too otherwise you may
    hear your record/CD being played on the college stations for a long
    time. You better have "the look" too and a 5 tons worth of contacts 
    because the business is alot different than it used to be.
    
    I didn't mean to sound so negative and being single instead of married
    with kids makes a VERY BIG difference, so if it's a dream you have and
    your music will only effect YOU compared to a family then maybe you
    should "go for it", just get EVERYTHING in black and white and don't
    do anything cRaZy until you see the contact and it's signed (you had
    best get yourself a good "music" lawyer because you never know when
    you'll need their service. My rule of thumb is, "don't bring anyone else 
    into the hole if you're not the only one riding the bus". If you are
    married...  it would be best to get the FULL 1000% support from your
    spouse (who should be working full-time...   just in case).
    
    One more little turn of the wheel down that long road. 
    
    			Rock on,
    				Fred (who's got a book worth of road stories)

    
      This note hits pretty close to home for me. Leaving a full time 
    position here at DEC in exchange for a career in music has always
    been a major dilemma of mine. My theory has been, "Don't turn out
    the light in the hallway until you turn on the light in the 
    bathroom." Perhaps the" Buy-out bargaineers" will make this
    decision easy for all of us.
      Currently, I devote my nights to my original band ,"The Keepers"
    and my days to DEC. I'm still single with no commitments so my
    fate remains my own choice. I agree with the previous replys
    regarding home and family, some things are more important than
    music.
      Personally though, I've never believed success in music as being
    a million to one shot. If you have talent, drive, and relentless
    determination combined with intelligence and common sense, you
    can make it. That's not to say you'll make millions and be famous,
    very few bands do and they are the ones who've been around for
    decades, but you could satisfied.
      Good luck to all who decide to take the hard road. May it lead 
    to your destination!!!!
    
    Clark C.

    
    You know, the other thing most of you have working against you is
    location.  Where are the record companies?  LA, and New York, with most
    of the business happening out here.  Where are you?  How likely is it
    that you are  going to be able to meet with the people you need to see?
    
    If you're in my category, playing because you have to (personal need
    without other compensation), then your location doesn't matter.  If you
    "want to make it big", though, you'd better think about moving out to
    North Hollywood and paying some serious Southern California dues.
    
    Other good places to check out: Athens, GA,  Minneapolis, and
    Nashville, depending on your sound and the robustness of your cajones.
    

>    Other good places to check out: Athens, GA,  Minneapolis, and
>    Nashville, depending on your sound and the robustness of your cajones.
    
    Another location which seems to be hot for the record companies to
    "discover" you lately is Seattle.  Especially if you play "grunge
    rock".  Lotsa bands coming from that area lately, Nirvana, Soundgarden,
    Queensryche (longer ago)...
    

    
    I know several people who make their living with music. Two are
    teachers at Berklee, one teaches out of a music store, another
    teaches at a private music school. Most of them still gig on the side.
    
    So it is not impossible, just not easy.
    
    When I was gigging doing covers at Chinese places, I averaged $800 to
    $1000 a month, but many of those places stopped having entertainment,
    or went with Dick Doherty's comedy connection.
    
    
    Guy
    

    
    Some good advice in here. Jason, I'm going through the same sort of
    thoughts too - its one of those things where if you don't go for it, 
    you'll regret it for the rest of your life, and if you do, you'll still
    probably regret it 8^)
    
    Me ? I've gotta get this out of my system once and for all, and intend 
    to do so later this year.

    Well, this has been said or hinted at several times, but I think bears
    repeating.  Jason, you asked why some of us haven't pursued a full-time
    career in music?  For me, I found that playing music for a living just
    wasn't fun.  Never mind the hassles, never mind the lack of security,
    never mind giving up the idea of a normal family life.  The thing that
    most turned me around was finding out that slogging through the same
    tunes night after night to half-interested audiences just wasn't as
    fullfilling as I thought it would be.  I loved to play and still do,
    but there's a big difference between playing for pleasure and playing
    for a living.  Until you've tried the latter, you'll never really know.
    Music changed a lot for me when it became my job.
    
    I don't think anyone here is saying "don't give it a shot".  Many of us
    did.  We're just saying "look out".
    
    Someone mentioned going to where the action is, like New York or LA.
    Well yeah, the opportunities are greater; so's the competition.  I knew
    people who went to New York to try to make it; gave themselves a year,
    two years, whatever to make it.  Some stayed, most didn't.  I think a more
    interesting idea is to hook up with a small, expanding music scene and
    try to catch a wave.  Think of Athens GA in the late 70's, Prince era
    Minneapolis, recent Seattle.

	Don't forget Austin, TX..... excellent place for folks into
	both music and computers....

    I'd concur with this advice. I realized a long time back that most of
    the musicians I knew who wanted to "make it big" wound up frustrated
    and burned out in very short order. The ones who seemed to stick with
    it and make a living at it were the ones who stuck mainly to the local
    scene and developed a niche for themselves. Life on the road is not all
    it's cracked up to be in the movies - it's really a continuous stream
    of flea-bag motels and fast food joints (among other things even less
    worth mentioning). But as somebody said earlier, that's just my
    perspective. Ask somebody who's doing it, if you want to really know
    the story.
    
    - Ram

The thing that just keeps jumping infront of me is the 

	"here today, gone tomorrow"

syndrome....

    
    What focused my mind on going professional (not that I was thinking of
    it!) was my guitar teacher a year or so back. He was full time
    professional. Keyboards, guitar, vocals were is speciality. He has
    writen several UK TV themes, music for adverts, played as a session
    musician and at the time was doing numerous TV spots and national tours
    backing Shakin' Stevens (A reasonably big name over here in the UK).
    
    Now here's the catch. The backing job here was purely on vocals (hardly
    fulfilling as a musician I would think). He admitted, he was doing it
    purely for the money and the possibility of 'greater things'.
    
    He was also doing regular slots in local pubs and to add to all this he
    was teaching a number of students Some very young beginners. In the year
    I was going to him it struck me that these latter activities were
    almost sacrosanct. He only ever had to cancel a lesson once for me. I
    cancelled many more through work. The bottom line was even though this
    guy was obviously reasonably succesful at the end of the day his 'bread
    and butter' were the lessons and local pub gigs. I can quite easily see
    how this would become very frustrating.
    
    Richard