Conference napalm::guitar

    I think that the Boogie doesn't really fit other than look simply
    because it was an attempt to "hot rod" the older amps.  The earliest
    ones were actually heavily modified Fender Princetons!
    
    The Peavey is actually their second attempt, since they had an earlier
    "vintage" amp line back in the 70s.  
    
    I've heard some people grouse about the reissues from Fender and
    Marshall because they were expecting some sort of fire-breathers and
    heard, well, "old" amp sounds.  The reissues are cool simply because
    even if they are not 100% like the originals sonically, they are a LOT
    more affordable.  
    
    But there are still a lot of other older amps out there at *dirt cheap*
    prices that are overlooked. Any of you passed on a Fender Bassman head
    at $100?  Big mistake!  These make *great* guitar amps, particularly if
    the application is as a backup head or to build a stack for the
    practice space, etc.  Old Traynors and Ampegs are also undervalued (I
    bought a working 40 watt Ampeg combo last year for a whopping $20!!!)
    and make great utility amps.
    
    As far as lists, reviews, etc. there are already notes on all of these:
    
    Marshall JTM45 head (reissue)
    Marshall JTM45 "Bluesbreaker" combo (reissue) both 45 watts, all tube
    
    Fender Vibroverb (reissue) 40 watts, all tube
    Fender Bassman (reissue) 50 watts, all tube
    
    Peavey Vintage (Bassman clone) 50 watts, all tube
    Kendrick (Bassman clone) 50 watts, all tube
    THD (Bassman clone) 50 watts, all tube
    
    Mesa Boogie Mk I (reissue) 100 watts, all tube
    
    
    							Brian

    My reply would fit under updated for this topic. I have a Fender "the
    Twin". I would like to try other amps just to find out why anyone would
    buy them, I like my Fender that much. It has the classic Fender clean
    sound, and it is a channel switcher with the other channel being the
    overdrive channel. If I had to compare it with any other amp's sound, it'd 
    be the Boogie. 
    
    I like a rich creamy Allman Bros tone, and my Fender does this for me. 
    As I said, I would like to try other amps just to satify my own
    curiosity. I think I get the tone I like with my setup, but
    maybe if I A/B'd it with a Marshall and a genuine LP, I'd hear a
    difference.
    
    "sakman" 

     
    
      You CAN'T leave out the mega-bucks VOX AC-30TB reissue. The original
    british invasion sound and a classic in its own right! 
      I'm still waiting to find an original at a garage sale for $100!!
    
    							-B()()M-

    My reason for posting the base note was just to get an idea of what was
    on the market today in anything that either SOUNDS or even LOOKS like a
    vintage amp, but is new production.  I don't want to get hung up on
    definitions.  Anything you list is OK.
    \Gary

	Right now I own 3 tube amps:

	o Fender Super 60. This has all the crystal-clear sound of
	   the old Fender with all the modern amenities like channel
	   switching, FX loop, DI output.

	o Fender Bassman 50 Head. This is a great sounding amp. I've
	   got it sitting at Harvey's on consignment sale. I agree that
	   these make great amps. And for the price it's almost
	   unbeatable.

	o Traynor YGM-3 - this is a 20 - 25wt combo with footswitchable 
	   reverb and tremelo and a 12" speaker. It uses 2 EL84s in the
	   output stage and sounds AMAZING when run flat out. It "breathes"
	   but doesn't p!ss off the neighbors.

	Old ampegs are a gas - I've been half-heartedly keeping my
	eye out for an old ReverbRocket2. I've noticed that several of
	the bands I really liked in the late 70s (Damned, Clash, Sex Pistols)
	spent some time using V4 heads for the guitars.
	

        For the time being, my primary amp is the all-tube reissue 1963
        Fender Vibroverb - rated at minimum 40 watts RMS into  2 x 10".
        It's true to the original in looks and sound with comparatively
        minor modifications, such as a three pin line cord, solid state
        rectifier and  a  pcb  instead  of  point to point hard wiring.
        I've been offered  a  good deal which would let me upgrade to a
        reissue Twin Reverb but I dunno...(what do you think Sakman?)
        
        We picked up an  Ampeg B15-N all-tube bass amp for Sandy - this
        is the famous Portaflex version  which  allows you to undo four
        clips, flip the head over into the cabinet and lock it down for
        protection  during  transportation.    Sounds  great!   It's  a
        nominal 30 watts RMS and dates from the  mid-late  '70s.  Kicks
        the crap out of the Peavey 80 watt solid  state she had before,
        in  a  clear  demonstration  of  the  efficiency  of tubes over
        transistors, watt for watt.
        
        Andy
        

    
    Actually the superiority of the Ampeg has a lot to do with a much more
    efficient and better tuned speaker cab.  The tubes add the icing to the
    cake with their warmer tone.  Hope you didn't pay too much, prices on
    these vary widely and condition seldom has anything to do with price! 
    I've seen ones in great shape for $150 and beat ones for $450!!!  
    
    						Brian

    
    This Ampeg is in gorgeous condition - looks like someone kept it in
    their living room all this time - not a mark on it, and we paid what we
    thought was a fair price.
    
    Fwiw, the same store has another B15 in stock, and it appears to be in
    very good condition too.  We didn't see the head as it was clipped
    shut, but it does have wheels attached.
    
    Sandy
    

    re .7 
    >>    I've been offered  a  good deal which would let me upgrade to a
        reissue Twin Reverb but I dunno...(what do you think Sakman?)
        
    Yo Andy!
    
    Hmmm, I'm a little confused here by the word "reissue". Is there some
    new Twin offering or do you speak of "The Twin". Insofar as "The Twin",
    I can't think of a reason NOT to get one. It's still the same classic
    Fender clean sound on one channel and a Mesa Boogie type overdrive for
    the other channel. It does get some serious bucks, but only by
    comparison to PV's. In comparison to Mesa's they're less expensive and
    I think a better buy for the buckage.
    
    In the new year, we'll get together and you can try mine.
    
    "sakman" 

        Dave,
        
        My  understanding is that this is a reissue  of  the  '65  Twin
        Reverb - if so, it should have the tilt-back  legs but I didn't
        think to check that when I played through it last  week.   From
        memory, it's blackface/two channel (4 x inputs)/2 x 10", so I'm
        not  sure  it  would  give  me  anything more than my Vibroverb
        besides more watts...
        
        Good idea about the New Year  - we've been talking about making
        some noise together!
        
        All the  best  to you and Elaine - and to all Guitar_noters for
        '92!
        
        Cheers
        
        Andy
        

>    Insofar as "The Twin", I can't think of a reason NOT to get one...
>    ...and a Mesa Boogie type overdrive for the other channel
    
    That's one reason.
    
    8^)

Folks,

I don't have a lot to add to this but I do have a copy of Guitar Player ( I
think) that includes an in-depth comparison between the Fender re-issue Bassman
verses Peavey, THD, and others.

The article (rightly) gets VERY picky about the pros and cons such as solid
state verses tube rectifer/transformer VA /speaker magnets/cone material.

Very informative including manufacturers comments.

regards,

Dave

    One modern amp with a "vintage" character seems to be the Duncan
    84-40.  These were powered by a quartet of EL-84s (just like the
    beloved VOX AC-30s) and had modern conveniences like channel
    switching and effects loops.  They came in two speaker flavors;
    1x12" and 2x10" (my preference).  I never actually heard one, but
    it seemed like a great idea; they were definitely touted as the
    sort of "modern-vintage" thing the original note asked about.
    These may be out of production now; keep your eyes open for good
    deals on used ones in WantAds, Daddy's, etc.
    
    In a similar vein, the Bedrock 1200 series.  These were available
    in various configurations; 50 watt head, 2x12" and 4x10" combos,
    all tube.  There was also a wide variety of custom coverings in
    addition to standard tolex; wild stuff like hot pink or lime green
    snakeskin.  I have tried the Bedrocks and like them a lot.  They were
    supposedly designed specifically to emulate "classic" amps sounds
    and came with a sheet of recommended settings to do just that:
    e.g., SRV blackface Super Reverb, Beatles AC-30, Bad Company Marshall
    crunch, Townsend Hiwatt, etc.  Some of these sounds were better than
    others, but the amp is generally good sounding, playable, and vintage.
    Dave Hicks loved this amp in a GP review (for what that's worth).
    Bedrock has since changed ownership and has a new line out; I think
    the 1200s are discontinued.  I have seen a lot of these used in shops
    around Boston.
    
    re Twin vs Vibroverb re-issues
    
    I think the brown Vibroverb is one of the best old amp re-issues I've
    ever heard; it really has the character of a vintage Fender.  One
    disadvantage in moving up to the Twin re-issue is that the tremelo
    circuits are different; white and brown Fenders were renowned for
    their distinctive thick tremelos, and the re-issue captures this.
    Later blackface amps had a slightly different circuit, not quite
    as cool.  This may or may not be important, depending perhaps on
    how many surf covers you do.  The Twin will let you play cleaner
    louder, which may be worth the switch.
    
    /rick

    I considered buying an 84-40.  Nice tone.  I didn't get one for the
    following reasons:
    
    	o Both units that I tried out had too much hum.
    
        o I heard a couple of bad rumours about repairs.
    
        o I found a mint condition '68 Fender Deluxe Reverb that I
          liked better.
    
    FWIW, I liked the 1x12 version of the Duncan better than the 2x10.  

    Man, I should have bought that Metaltronix Blues '59 amp I was 
    scoping out at EU's in Boston that time...talk about a RARE BIRD!
    

    Peavey has shown another new tweed amp at NAMM, the Classic 20, two
    12ax7, 2 EL-84, 1-10", 20 watts.  List will be $250.  Sort of like an
    updated tweed Deluxe.
    
    							Brian

    Peavey has also announced a head version of the Classic 50, looks sort
    of like a Marshall done up in tweed with arrow knobs.
    
    							Brian

    -1
    
    Cool!
    

    this amp received an overall good review from the guys in Guitar
    magazine.
    
    
                                                Staynz

    I'm looking into buying a combo amp in the near future.  Below are my
    requirements --
    
    o 50wt or 100wt's
    o Channel switching capability (need clean and obscene sound
      felexibility)
    o FX Loop
    o All values, or Hybrid prefered
    
    
    I know a while ago, some people in here picked up some Carvin combos.
    You guys happy with them??  I know Marhsall has some stuff out, but
    I suspect it's in the mega-bucks range.  I know Fender has a LARGE
    selection of combo amps available, but from what I've seen they're big
    bucks as well.  I don't think I really wanna be spending like $800 for
    a damn combo amp!
    
    Any suggestions?

    What's your budget, dude?
    
    gh

    I guess I would say like $600, tops.

     Buck, check out 2.2451

    I'm thinking of selling my Fender "The Twin". If so, I'll be asking
    around $600 for it. If you're interested send mail.
    
    Mark

    when I was in Colorado Greg and I were checking out some guitars and we
    were using a Crate combo.Don't know what Greg thought about it but I
    liked it.Cool amp!
    
    
                                                       ian

    I didn't think we ever heard it by itself (ie, without any of the Boss
    stomp boxes hooked up)...  
    
    Greg

	Crate? Check out the Crate Stealth. 50wt 1x12 combo runs 4 6V6
	power tubes. Nice sounding amp.

	

    re- Greg....didn't we hear it on its own in Rice's?You fannied about
    with the knobs and I created a racket! 8)
    
    
                                                  ian

    re: Ian
    
    Oh yeah...  I forgot about that one.  I was thinkin of the one at the
    other place.  Yeah, yer right, I remember now.  FWIW, that was a Crate
    Stealth half-stack.
    
    Greg

    it was really nice!
    
    
                                              ian

    I thought this was as good a place as any for this note. I also put it
    in the MUSICIANS_UK notesfile, but I'm probably just as likely to get
    some takers here.

    Flicking through the private ads in the "Guitarist" (published in the
    UK) magazine, I was struck by the large number of people selling old
    valve amps/combos. Selmer seems to be the most prominent name, but
    there's also Viper, Sound City, Session, etc.

    Of course, there are a lot of vintage Vox amps for sale, and I'd love
    to have one (wouldn't we all?), but �600 for a Vox AC30 just happens to
    be outside my price bracket. I'm no longer resident in the UK either,
    which doesn't make matters any simpler.

    So what's the lowdown on these other vintage valve amps? Is anyone
    familiar with the Selmer 100W Treble n' Bass for example? Is the
    difference in prices with Vox amps just a question of pure snobbery?
    Can the Vox AC30 really have been so far ahead of the competition?
    Dunno how many of them found their way Stateside (probably a fair
    number), but I'm sure I recall a famous 60s  band (Kinks? Small Faces?)
    using Selmer amplification...

    Reading these ads, it certainly seems that their owners are sad to have
    to part with them!

    Cheers, 
     Dom

    Sound City was a Marshall clone as I recall; we see many of these amps
    in the States, usually at very very low prices.  They are supposed to
    be a could value for someone looking for an old Marshall type sound on
    a budget.
    
    Selmers are very rare here, but their early equivalent of the AC-30 (two
    12's) is a great amp.  I don't recall the name, but these have cool fake
    alligator covering and a glowing "electronic eye".
    
    What I'm really looking for is an old Wem stack (a la "This Was" era
    Tull).  Seen any of those in the ads?
    
    /jeffrey

    
    Sorry - after starting off this new thread, I haven't had a lot of
    noting time of late.

    To answer your question, Rick, I do recall seeing ads for WEM amps on
    those pages, although not many in the most recent editions. There was a
    guy trying to sell a WEM Copycat (is that an amp?) and there was also a
    WEM Dominator up for sale at �125 (about $190?). As you'll have
    guessed, I don't know too much about these, though.

    But there does seem to be an enormous abundance of valve stuff at very
    appetizing prices (with the obvious exception of the Voxes). So why is
    it that people don't seem to be terribly interested in this stuff? Is
    it simply that in 1993 they feel that amps with one tone control and no
    effects loop input are a no-no? Frankly, I'd prefer to have an amp with
    a great basic sound, even if it loses points for versatility. Channel
    mixing and individual treble, bass, middle, hi-mid and lo-mid controls
    are lovely, but I'm not going to pay 200% extra for them. Or am I
    missing something? Any more info on the pros and cons of the vintage
    valve amp market would be greatly appreciated.

    Of course, I don't live in the UK any more so I'm torturing myself when
    I browse through these ads. The lire is so weak at the moment that for
    the first time ever, musical gear is as cheap in Italy as it is in
    Britain. Shame that there are no old Selmers, Ampegs, Oranges or Sound
    City amps kicking around here...this passion for collecting and storing
    old things permeates right through British society, from books to
    motorcycles!

    Dom

    P.S. After singing the praises of the Guitarist magazine in a previous
    note, I must say that December's edition looks a little disappointing
    (for my non-metallic tastes, anyway). Contains interviews with Def
    Leppard, Geddy Lee, Status Quo, John Hiatt, Gordon Giltrap and INXS,
    amongst others. However, the technical columns are always first class
    and there's a wealth of information/ads, etc. in the 275 pages.

    >There was a guy trying to sell a WEM Copycat (is that an amp?) 
    
    I think it's a tape echo unit (like an Echoplex)
    
    >there was also a WEM Dominator up for sale at �125 (about $190?). 
    
    Hmm, if it's that alien looking thing shown in the Tube Amp Book, i
    want it...looks more like a TV than a guitar amp.
    
    >So why is it that people don't seem to be terribly interested in this
    >stuff? Is it simply that in 1993 they feel that amps with one tone
    >control and no effects loop input are a no-no?
    
    Basically, yes.  I've come across a lot of old amps for next to nothing
    (I even started that note on "where are all the old amps?").   Real
    small ones (5-20 watters) are not that useful for live work and
    since they don't have the dizz-buster sound that most young players are
    looking for in their first amp, they languish gathering dust when $25,
    some TLC and a fuzz box could have them cranking again.  Some people
    wouldn't believe that I have done hundreds of gigs with an old Traynor
    bass combo I paid $75 for.
    
    I think what's also started to happen is that these amps are too old
    for younger players to know what they are.  When I was a snot-nosed kid
    I had never seen a tweed or blond Fender amp, since noone was using
    them at the time....everything was Kustoms, Acoustics and Marshalls.
    
    The converse is also true: my brother-in-law Thom has a blackface
    Princeton Reverb in his basement gathering dust.  He won't sell it to
    me, even though he doesn't use it, because he once promised a bandmate
    that if he ever got rid of it, he would give him first crack.  To Thom,
    it's a junk amp.  I have no idea if he knows it's probably worth about
    $500 now.
    
    							Brian

>    >There was a guy trying to sell a WEM Copycat (is that an amp?) 
    
>    I think it's a tape echo unit (like an Echoplex)

        Exactly right  - the Watkins Copycat used a simple loop of tape
        rather than a  cartridge.    I  used to buy a spool of 1/4" and
        make my own loops,  since they'd always break at the worst time
        and the pre-made ones were  expensive  and fragile.  Neat units
        for their time, though.
        
        Andy
        

    
    re: .35
    
    >Real small ones (5-20 watters) are not that useful for live work and
    >since they don't have the dizz-buster sound that most young players are
    >looking for in their first amp...
    
    Crazy world, innit? Still, I suppose we've got to be grateful to those
    young, tastless shred types (and their huge bank accounts) for lapping
    up the Mesa Boogies and the Trace Elliots and leaving us the classy
    vintage gear ;-) ;-)
    
    Seriously, I have to confess that I know a lot more about music and the
    people who play it than I do about instruments, hi-fi, etc. (though I
    know a lot more about guitars than I do about amps!). I'm quite clear
    about the sort of sound I like, but I'm not nearly so sure how to get
    it, largely because my playing experience so far has been restricted to
    Fenders, Carlsboros, Peaveys, Laneys and the like - all solid state
    stuff. 
    
    So what exactly do you experts look for when you buy old valve amps
    secondhand? What are the pros and cons of these beasts?  Someone
    mentioned earlier about Sound City amps being akin to the poor man's
    Marshall of a few years back. So what will I be sacrificing if I buy
    the next Sound City combo that I see advertised, rather than an old
    Marshall? If you tell me that it's just the name that explains the
    difference in price, then I can only conclude that amps generate even
    more snobbery than guitars!
    
    Cheers,
     Dom                       
    

    Look what came over the USENET...is WEMmania gonna be the next craze?
    
From: [email protected] ("David Morton")
Subject: WEM Copicat
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1993 16:05:56 GMT
 
I've just received the brochure on this, and discover that the re-issue 
is a version of the valve mark II Copicat. Severe credit card stress is 
imminent, has anyone tried one?

    Re: .37
    
    When I see an old amp, I look it over to see what kind of tubes it
    uses.  Stuff that uses the typical Fender/Marshall types (12AX7, 6L6,
    EL34, etc.) is going to be easier to maintain then something that uses
    oddball tubes (like most Gibsons, early Ampegs).  Looking at the power
    tubes, the fuse and the AC power rating will give you an idea how much
    wattage the thing will put out if you're not sure.
    
    Next, I *listen* to it.  Things like scratchy pots are a non-issue with
    me (easily cleaned) but I'll often use that to drive down the price
    if the seller has no idea how simple the fix is  8^)
    
    The amp may make any of a variety of odd noises: hums, buzzes,
    crackles, pops.  You have to make a judgement call about that.  Hum is
    often either a bad ground connection or a sign that the filter caps in
    the power supply need replacement (these are cheap to replace). 
    Sometimes it sounds like crap because the tubes are on their last legs,
    so you have to wing it there, trying to guess how much better it'll
    sound with new tubes.
    
    You also want to look for signs of abuse or previous repairs.  If the
    things has burn marks all over the chassis, that should tip you off to
    potential trouble  8^)  8^)  Also check for non-original speakers (who
    wants a Marshall stack loaded with Radio Shack speakers?) and other
    "modifications" which may affect reliability, tone and value.
    
    The good news is that tube amps tend to have simple circuits so they
    are easy to overhaul; the question is how much money do you want to
    put into it before it's not cost-effective.  Any oddities in the sound,
    even if *you* know they are cheap and easy to fix can be used as
    leverage against the price. Don't let the seller know that you rebuild
    tube amps as a hobby  8^)
    
    My rule of thumb is that *any* old tube amp that is not a "name" brand
    like Fender, Ampeg or Marshall or a collectible like Orange should cost
    no more than $200, period. in fact, $100 or less is more like it. I
    think they are *worth* more as playing amps, but as far as what you
    should pay for it, keep thinking of that lone C-note  8^)  The fact is
    that if the seller wants more, you can probably find another amp as
    good or better for less, so be patient!
    
    								Brian

    
    re: .39 
    Excellent, Brian - thanks a lot. That's exactly what I was looking for.
    You also confirmed a lot of my suspicions.

    >Any oddities in the sound, even if *you* know they are cheap and easy
    >to fix can be used as leverage against the price. Don't let the seller
    >know that you rebuild tube amps as a hobby  8^)                    

    Shouldn't be a problem. He'd only need to look me squarely between the
    eyes to realise I'm the sort of guy who can just about change a plug!
    So despite the wealth of technical info in your note, there's no way
    I'm going to be doing my own fixes/modifications. It's time I found out
    about the prices of tubes here in Italy, as well...

    My current (recently-formed) band plays a very sixties-influenced blend
    of beat/R&B (Yardbirds, Muddy Waters, Kinks, Small Faces, Motown,
    Stones, Chuck Berry et al). So we're looking for a fairly authentic
    sound - without having to mortgage our homes to buy Rickenbackers and
    Vox AC30s!  

    Dom

    P.S. Could you give me the details of that Tube Amp book you mentioned
    a few notes back? Cheers!

    re: previous repairs

    Yay, thoust should heed brother Rost's warning. This could be the sign
    of eternal damnation. For in this world there are many that would have
    good men and women believe that they know of what they do. But they
    don't. So asketh thyne question "Haseth thisuth amputh beeneth
    repairedeth?" If they lie with a serpent's tongue, then you can always
    drag their boney ass into court.

                                            Rev. Jim

    I'm very seriously thinking of picking up a Fender Blues Deluxe
    w/2x10's. Guitar Shop just gave them an amazing review and the price
    just can not be beat - $599.99 Can. I haven't heard one yet but i have
    heard great things about their tone, not to mention an amazing reverb.
    I was wondering if anyone owns one or knows of someone who does. I'm
    just looking for some honest feedback on how they do in the real world.
    A friend of mine at the local dealer said thet they had a bunch come
    back for repair and that makes my worry a little. 
    
    -kev

    I bought a Fender Blues Deville (4x10's) last December. No problems yet
    and it sounds great to me. The Deville was $799 less 30% at Alan's
    Discount Music in Birmingham, Alabama.
    
    regards,
    
    Leo

   You should also check out the Peavey "Classic" series, which pretty much
   goes model for model on the Fender retro craze.  Better reverb, slightly
   higher gain (at least to my ears) and slightly less expensive.  Can't hurt
   to at least check 'em!

   -- Sam

    
    	Sam - the higher gain part is definitely something to consider.
    	The gain channel in the Blues DeVille (and Deluxe??) are really
    	meant to sound like the clean channel cranked.  It's not meant
    	to be an overdrive/distortion channel.  
    
    	I use a Tube Screamer and get an interesting sound when using
    	it with the gain channel, although I much prefer it with the
    	clean channel.
    
    	Tom