Conference napalm::guitar

>    	Also, where is the "Pat Metheny" note ?
    
    This is it, there wasn't one before.
    
    Greg

    
    I don't know anything about his setup, but he put on one of the
    best concerts I've ever heard.  He filled my music quota for the
    next week - I didn't want to hear any more music for about that
    long after the show....
    
    .....amazing....
    
    
    guy

    Pat's just wonderful!
    
    A lot of his sounds (at least his earlier stuff) come from
    running stereo and using two radically different effect chains
    where chorusing and delay are concerned. Try this yourself if
    you have the gear...it's a blast! Use one chain with a slapback
    delay and chorusing as a sort of dry signal. On the other chain,
    dial out the dry signal on the delay (set at a moderate echo and
    3 to 4 repeats) and use a much deeper chorus. I you fool around
    with it long enough, you should attain a reasonable facsimile
    of "that" sound. I don't know about his specific  patch/sample on
    that "trumpet" voicing, but when I last saw him on the "Letter From
    Home" tour, it didn't appear that he had changed any of his equipment
    from any of the previous tours I had seen.
    If it ain't broke...etc.
    
    At last, the genious is recognized.
    
    Scotty

    RE .1
    
    How could this notes file go on so long without a "Pat" note ???
    I have searched and read some "opinion" notes on him - saying that he
    is overrated, but no "objective" notes, or detailed discussions.
    
    All Pat Metheny fans stand up and be heard from ! We need to stand
    against this "overrating" opinion... For a "current" jazz guitarist,
    playing "current" sounds, no one is even close IMO.
    
    Jim

Anyone unfamiliar with Pat Metheny Group's stuff should check out the
double live album "Travels".
This is real music for grown-ups.

    I think Pat's earliest work was his best. My favorite is the "Pat
    Metheny Group" album with Mays, Gottlieb, etc... 
    
    "Still Life (Talking)" seemed to mark the beginning of a "new" sound
    for him, (read: "Lose the sampled voices!") that just doesn't work for
    me...
    
    Edd

    
    	While I only have a few Metheny albums since he got a little
    	too "muzaky" for my tastes, one that really hit me was his
    	trio album with Jaco called "Bright Size Life".  
    
    	Btw, I've heard him pronounce his name as Mah-thee'nee.  For
    	some reason, most people use a strong A for the middle syllable.
    
    	I did hear his latest (at that time, a year ago) at my brother's
    	house and he really ripped.
    
    	Tom
    

    
>	Does anyone have any further 
>    information on Pat's setup and how he gets that delayed sound - is he 
>    using a Lexicon? 


From a GP interview awhile ago....    
	He runs a delay(Lexicon)in stereo,to two amps,and then Reverb is 
added at the sound mixing board. I've had a real hard time simulating this 
sound,The amp he use to use was an older Acoustic Solidstateamp with 4 10
altecs or Jbl's. If you want exact model numbers I'll see what I can do,but
I'd expect he has updated since this interview.


>    	Also, the "horn" type sound he gets out of his Guitar Synth - any
>    clues as to what equipment does this ?  I think I read somewhere that
>    it is a NED Synclavier ?
    
	Dunno....I thought it was a Roland 700 series controller.....but
these are really outdated.

	I think Pat's most recent solo effort with Dave Holland and Roy 
Haynes is his best "new" effort. He also plays on a Gary Burton "Reunion"
release in which he plays some nice lines. But his association with Lyle
May's in the Pat Metheny Group releases just never really appealed to me.
Now I know the purpose behind the Pat Metheny Group's name was not to show
case Pat but expose the other people in the band,but the release's always
left me wanting more of him and less of the rest.
	Years ago he and Lyle and Jaco P did a tour with Joni Mitchell and 
if you look in the music section at your local Video store there is a Joni
Mitchell video of the "Shadow's and Light" tour which features Pat on 
guitar along with other people. It's an old video as I seem to remember he 
was using MXR delays then......
 
	I have most of his albums,but I really prefer him in a trio setting
where he can really spread out and play. 



							Rick

    I gotta agree with everything that I've read here, Pat's a uniquely
    talented player. I saw 'em about oh Lord, 8 or 9 years ago at the
    Orpheum. Had damn near front row seats. Great concert, although I
    remember thinking at the time that some things were just too long and
    dragged out. 
    
    Like Edd, I think "Still Life..." made a mark in his career that I
    didn't like. I haven't bought any of his work since. American Garage is
    one of my favorites.
    
    "sakman"

    Pat uses the SG-shaped Roland controller (the guitar is actually an
    Ibanez) which is modified by NED for use with the Synclavier (easily
    recognized by the weirdo outboard control box attached to it). I've
    seen John McLaughlin and Al DiMeola use this rig too.  I have also seen
    Pat using a straight Roland synth (the older 300 series, the blue box).
    
    							Brian
    
    P.S. I agree with Tom, "Bright Size Life" is my favorite.  Wish he
    would do more trios, a video of him with Steve Swallow and Bob Moses
    in a Montreal night club is hot stuff, and the Haynes/Holland album is
    great too.

    From what I've heard of him on the radio, I like.  How about a
    recommended list of albums?
    
    Mike

    My favorites:
    
    Bright size life   1975 debut album
    New Chitauqua
    As falls Witchita... (or some thing like that)  with Lyle Mays
    American Garage
    
    

re Mike,

Pat Metheny Recomendation:
    
Bright Size Life(with Jaco P) This was his first solo effort....

Questions and Answers (with Dave Holland and Roy Haynes) This was his most
recent solo effort(last year?) Playing a few jazz standards in a trio 
setting. The liner notes seem to indicate he just showed up at a studio
and played....
    Try those for starters....
    
    
						Rick

    I like all of Pat's work with the exception of the free jazz stuff
    with Ornette ("Mr. Harmelodic") Coleman. I used to be "into" free
    jazz, but just can't relate anymore. IMHO it sounds like a claw hammer
    pulling a rusty nail out of a packing crate mating with a dislexic cat
    caught in some sort of syncopated blender. Hey anybody can display
    incredible dexterity when their not really playing anything! The
    "magic" happens when these boys happen to be *lucky* enough to que 
    eachother on starts and stops. Beauty...eh? (I am kidding a little
    bit here..,.wouldn't want to take anything away from any of these 
    guy's incredible talents and abilities). When used judiciously, a
    little dissonance can really spice things up. A few bars...methinks!
    
    Scotty

    I stay away from anyone's album which might contain the words
    "Ornette Colman". I'm quite fond of John Zorn and made the mistake
    of picking up a CD of his doing Ornette Coleman stuff. I put it in 
    the trash compacter.
    
    While I've not heard the Metheny interpretation of Coleman, ( I didn't
    want to violate my Ornette Coleman NOT rule), I suspect it is not
    typical of Pat's work in general. He has alot of good stuff. His 
    recent releases ( Still Life, Letter's from Home) also have some
    South American rhythm influence  which is quite nice and not found
    on earlier recordings.
    
    jim

    I agree with the two previous notes on free jazz stylings. That's why I
    like American Garage so much. Great Album.

    Ditto "American Garage", and also the plain white album "Pat Metheny
    Group". "Off-ramp" isn't bad, but it seems to foreshadow the coming
    of his "recent" recordings which, frankly, put me off....
    
    Edd

    Well just to keep things a little balanced around here, let me put in a
    good word for Ornette.  I agree he's not easily accessible, but he's
    not noise.  Of all the "free" players I can think of, he's about the
    least guilty of just running his fingers; there are some incredible
    melodies in his stuff.
    
    As for Pat.  I like Pat, most of the time.  I like Ornette, some of
    the time.  I recently saw a live broadcast from the Montreal Jazz
    Festival with Ornette's band Prime Time.  For the first half of the
    set, things were really cooking.  Then Pat joined the band onstage
    with his guitar synth.  Bleep, blatt... talk about your finger
    exercises.  Pat sounded like the one who was b.s.'ing and he brought
    the whole band down with him.  The difference between with and without
    Pat was like night and day.  He looked like he was really feeling it,
    so maybe it meant something to him.  I've never heard any of the
    recordings of Pat with Ornette; if this was any indication, then yeah,
    I agree it sounds like garbage.
    
    /rick

    My recommended list of albums (yes, I own all of Pat's):
    
    Bright Sized Life
    
    	"This is Pat, Jaco P., and Bob Moses on drums. Some very, very fine
    trio work, and Jaco really rounded out the sound" 1977 ? If you like
    the 'ECM' sound of the late 70's, you'll like this.
    
    The Pat Metheny Group 
    
    	"Pat, Lyle, Mark Egan on bass, and Danny Gotleib on drums.
    Excellent - a Pat "standard" if you will.
    
    American Garage
    
    	"The group above. A very hip, elevated set of songs"
    
    Offramp
    
    	"Pat's venture with the synth guitar. 'Are you going with me' is a
    favorite cut on the set, although Lyle plays most of the melody on the
    synth. Also, a note is that the group changed: Mark Egan is gone and so
    you don't hear a buzz bass anymore. Steve Rodby - plays a stand up
    acoustic so of course the bottom end sound changes. If you like Mark's
    stuff with Pat, look for thegroup"Elements" CD's. Also, a new drummer is on
    this and I think he's the same as is with Pat now. And of course, the
    Brazilian 'kid/dude' was first featured here."
    
    
    As Falls Wichita, So Falls Wichita Falls..
    
    	"Lyle, and Pat. Again a departure away from standard tunes. Still
    very, very hip"
    
    Full Circle -
    
    	"A 'bright' sound with some fast movers here. Definately worth
    listening to." This is post 'Offramp sound'.
    
    Rejoicing -
    
    	"A wonderful 'acoustic' type set. Pat does play electric on some of
    the cuts.  'Blues for Pat' comes to mind as something for all those
    'anti-Pat: he's not a REAL jazz guitar player' folks."
    
    Still Life Talking -
    
    	"Getting much more 'commerical' now. But you gotta love Pat for
    making 'commerical' sound great!"
    
    Letter From Home -
    
    	An extension of 'Still Life'. Personally I'm waiting for the next
    transition, and hopefully it's out of the Brazil stuff - that 'singer'
    drives me nuts - but he is a *great* percussionist. I'm looking more
    for some head on Pat/Lyle Mays tunes. Which to be fair we do get in
    both "Still Life and Letter..." but not as much as I'd like. 
    
    	I also happen to really like Pat's synth guitar work. His 'horn'
    sound can be very hip. Listen to cut 8? on the "Letter.." CD. Wow.
    
    Pat with other folks -
    
    Jack DeJonnett (sp) "Parallel (something)". Interesting work. I'd recommend
    it if you really like Pat.
    
    Falcon and Snowman soundtrack. The cut "This is not America" w/David
    Bowie. I personally think that Pat's synth/riff is too cool for school.
    
    Joni M - Shadows and Light. Jaco also played on this. A must have if
    you like Joni (I do) and Jaco (I do) and of course Pat.
    
    I know there are others...but this is all I know of that Pat has sat in
    on (name not on cover).
    
    
    Jim          

    RE the horn sound - I hope you don't mean the sound which results when
    he plays with Pedro Aznar vocalizing or playing the melodica in
    unison... 'cause that one you cannot do it alone...
    
    I saw the guy in concert 4 or 5 times now, with his group and with
    De Jonnette et al playing standards - to me he'd better stick with his
    own group or at the very limit with Gary Burton.
    
    I'd add to the suggested listening:
    
    Letters from home (PMG)
    Reunion (w/ G.Burton)

    Reunion is nice. Very easy listening.

    I didn't have much fun listening to Offramp, but I didn't have
    it for very long, either. I like American Garage a lot because
    there is more structure to the selections. I prefer jazz that's
    played around more definite arrangements rather than the Dave Holland
    type free form stuff. I saw Keith Jarrett in a solo performance
    once that was stunning. I later saw him with his quintet and got
    a migrain from it.

    --ron

    
    I like "American Garage" the best, and I've been getting into
    "First Circle" lately.....
    
    Anyone heard (or liked?) "New (I can't even *begin* to spell this
    word) Chateauque"?  I couldn't sit through more than about 3 songs
    at once.
    
    
    guy

    >Anyone heard (or liked?) "New (I can't even *begin* to spell this
    >word) Chateauque"?  I couldn't sit through more than about 3 songs
    >at once.
    
    I think that's New Chatauqua. Whatever, this was the first PM album
    I ever heard. My then current girlfriend introduced me to PM.
    Personally, It's one of my favorites but probably for sentimental
    reasons. When I ask myself, "where were you when you first heard
    this song?", I can't keep from smiling. Those were good times.
    
    jim

    
    
    re .23 (jim)
    
    I hear ya.  That phenomena is probably responsible for people liking
    lots of bad music....;-) ;-) ;-)
    
    guy

    >That phenomena is probably responsible for people liking
    >lots of bad music....
    
    Hey mastergripper!   Are you calling my ex-girlfriend a phenomenon???
    Sounds like fightin' words to me! :+)
    
    jim

    
    jim,
    
    No more a phenomenon than my (soon-to-be) ex-wife......hmmmm...I'm
    not sure I've dug myself out of this.....;-) ;-)
    
    
    guy

    RE: .19
    
    I said "Full Circle" when I meant to say "First Circle". 
    
    RE: .21
    
    	I agree on your observatios of the PM structured vs. non-structured
    work. I too, tend toprefer his structured stuff.
    
    Regarding the HORD SOUND. I'm specifically talking about the 'synth'
    sound that PM gets from his synth-guitar that sounds like a trumpet or
    horn of some sort. I don't think that it is the voice double or
    anything like that.

    
    Last Monday the 6th, Pat kicked off a small tour "just for the fun
    of it" in Burlington, VT.  This was the second time I'd seen him
    and although they were excellent, they just didn't measure up to my
    memories of the last time they were in Burlington.  Of course, these
    guys could get up there and pick their noses and it'd still be enter-
    taining, so one can't go wrong buying a ticket to see them.
    
    Lyle Mays, Paul Wertico, Steve Rodby, and 3 other dudes accompany
    him on this tour....
    
    Lyle didn't stand out as much on this tour as I remembered in the 
    past.  He started out with major technical difficulties and Pat
    talked about the tour, what they'd been doing, and told a few 
    musician jokes while the problems were worked out.  Lyle left the
    stage a few times during the first few songs and it was very dis-
    tracting.
    
    Within a year or so there will be a live album from some of the
    European (I believe) shows they were doing for a while.
    
    Still an awesome guitarist.....
    
    guy

    I succumbed to the media bait (cover story, latest Musician mag) and
    picked up the Pat Metheny Group's latest "We Live Here".  I have no
    recent Pat in the house and figured this would be a good chance to
    catch up.  Unfortunately, I find this record almost unlistenable.
    The arrangments sound pretty muzaky to my ears, full of insipid washes
    of synth strings and bad 70's funk-zak style grooves.  The tunes
    themselves aren't particularly memorable either.

    Have any other Metheny fans picked up this one yet?  Is this stuff
    indicative of his other recent releases with the Group?  I'm trying
    hard to hear something to like in it, but so far no luck.

    /rick

    
    I've never been able to get deeply into Pat Metheny myself. The man's 
    got great chops no doubt, but as you said, I don't find any of his 
    music all that memorable.  He's also done some pure trash (imho)
    seemingly based on white noise in one of his previous albums. I have
    a friend who loves Pat and always tries to sell me on his playing, but
    it just doesn't appeal to me.  
    
     Btw, there's a rumor on the Internet that Les Paul died while on stage
    in Illinois.  I haven't seen or heard anything about Les Pauls death
    on TV or in the press so I don't believe it myself.  The post was
    dated July 14th.  Anyone heard anything about this ?
    
     Larry

    The latest Time magazine has a small note about Les Paul recovering
    after collapsing onstage; perhaps that's where the rumor got started.
    

    I've got Only one Pat Metheny CD.
    It's from 1978 on ECM_Records.
    It's Simply_Called"Pat Metheny Group.Lyle Mays,Mark Egan,Dan Gottlieb."
    I Only Put it on Durin certain Sun_Day Mornins when I'm Hangin.
    
      Crazy_Will_Have_To_Listen_Closer_Al

     
    I agree that the last few Metheny Group recordings have been pretty
    lame for my taste. Some of his earlier stuff was hot and cold but
    did'nt have the sort of blandness that recent releases have.
    
    If you want to hear Pat smoke a little, pick up the John Scofield &
    Pat Metheny cd "I Can See Your House From Here". It's on Blue Note
    label, catalog number CDP 7243 8 27765 2 9. It features Scofield and
    Metheny on guitars, Steve Swallow on bass, and Bill Stewart on drums.
    
    CERASO