Conference napalm::guitar

    
    	Er guys........why do you say you'll never be able to play them?
    
    	What made you reach that conclusion? I'm intriuged, I don't want
    any	flames here but I damn well *am* going to be better than Dave
    Gilmour, I don't care what it takes, I don't care how long it takes...
    ....it will happen, somewhere along the lines you decided that you were
    never going to be able to play like 'insert guitar hero here'....how
    did you reach that decision.
    
    	I know this note sounds awfully pompous but I can't think of a
    better way to put it............
    
    J

There was a discussion once about playing Clapton lix.  (I *didn't* start it!).
and the point was made that NO ONE will ever be able to play like Clapton.
they might learn the notes, but...  Perhaps that wheat this conversation
is eluding to.

I'll resist further editorialization re: Clapton. (is that a word?!?!).  :)

jc

    
    	Ok I agree with you on that Coop (can I call you that?) I may never
    	be able to play Gilmour licks and get them to sound like Gilmour
    	although the note execution may be perfect...what I'm saying is
    	that what makes any of you think that what you're playing isn't up
    	to the standard of 'insert guitar hero here'????????
    
    
    	Maybe I took the comment too seriously......
    
    
    	J

    
    Well, I don't know about the "never be able to play it" part, but I've
    been put off from trying to learn Cliffs of Dover because I just can't
    play some of those licks fast enough to do the song justice.  With my
    trusty CD player's infinite repeat, I can eventually figure out the
    licks.  Playing them up to speed is another issue entirely.
    
    Kevin
    
    
    

    
    
    	But you are going to carry on working at it aren't you Kev?
    
    
    
    	You have until you die.........I hope you try to get it for the
    	rest of your life.....(actually I hope you master it and progress
    	to something else)
    
    	What I guess I want to know is that you guys haven't given up....
    
    
    	J

    
    
    Nope, I've given up. 8-)  But I don't really see a problem with that. 
    
    Sure, I'll continue to improve as a player (hope I do anyway).  But
    there is no shame in not being able to play an EJ, Steve Morse,
    or Satch, etc. song.  I mean, those guys are *monsters*.  There is
    always going to be someone better than I am, and these guys are better.
    
    I've been playing for a looooong time, so I've got a pretty good idea
    of what I can and cannot do.  Right now, I can't do Cliffs with any
    aplomb.  Maybe some day I'll revisit it and find that I have improved
    enough to play it.  Maybe not.
    
    Kevin
    
    

    
    	Yeh but as far as I go Kev *you're* probably a monster player.....
    
    	Do me a favour? You aren't stupid (I can tell by your notes), I
    	hope you don't have any physical disabilities to inhibit your	
    	playing.....so don't give up....work at it...*they* did it...why
    	can't you?
    
    	J

    re: "why will I never be able to play like my guitar heros"
    
    Seems like a reasonable question, I'll attempt to answer it:
    
    1) physical dexterity degrades, not increases with age.  It's something
    you have to develop young to develop significant levels of it.  The
    older you are, the more slowly it develops, even with more work at it. 
    I am 31 years old and my dexterity is developing only slowly.  In no
    way do I even approach a quarter of the manual dexterity required to
    play like EJ, Steve Morse, Paul Gilbert, or Steve Vai.  It's not
    terribly feasable to believe that I could develop that even given the
    rest of my lifetime.
    
    2) I simply do not have enough time in my life to devote to the guitar
    to learn that stuff well enough to perform it well.  I have a full time
    job that requires my presence a minimum of 8 hours a day.  I have an
    hour and a half of travel time to and from work which cannot be used
    for physical practice.  I have a time-jealous wife and will have a
    child in January.  I own a house and if all goes well, will own two
    houses on Monday.  I do not make enough money for all the above, so we
    are forced to drive older cars which require more maintenance and
    repair which I have to do myself.  These things all require time and
    most of them are beyond my control.  
    
    It is not feasible for me to quit my job, dump my wife, abandon my kid
    and practice playing the guitar for the 8-10 hours a day it would
    probably require for me to even attempt playing at the skill level of
    these people.
    
    3) There is such a thing as aptitude for doing something.  These
    players are currently the best players in the WORLD!  Playing the
    guitar has never come easy for me, I have had trouble progressing ever
    since I started playing.  What on earth would make me realistically
    think that in my middle age I would suddenly develop a vast aptitude
    for the instrument and become a world class musician?
    
    4) I honestly don't want to play EJ's, Morse's, Satch's, Vai's,
    Gilbert's music!  I want to play my own.  The music that comes into
    *my* head is not the same kind of thing that comes into theirs.  Even
    if I could play extremely difficult technical music, I would probably
    never use it because my creative musical mind (such as it is) just
    doesn't come up with a use for it in the songs I write.
    
    5) Even if the above were not true, I just don't have the motivation
    and determination to practice as much as it takes to get to the level
    of that kind of player.  I doubt I ever will.
    
    Does this explain well enough why I won't be able to play like them?
    
    Yeah, I *have* given up on it.  So what?
    
    Greg

    
    No, I'm no monster.  I'm basically a fast hack who has been playing
    long enough to aquire OK chops.
    
    As to not giving up, lately I've been playing every day for about an
    hour.  But it's the same hour that I watch the late news.  By the time
    I get home from work, get my kids in bed and talk to my wife for a
    while, that's all the time there is.  The band practices once a week,
    and we gig often enough to keep it interesting. 

    I'm not complaining about it, I like my life.  But, there sure aren't
    many 3-hour blocks of time hanging around for me to learn EJ tunes!
  
    Kevin
    
    
    

    
    	Thanks Kev and Greg for the honest answers...Greg you say you have
    	given up so what....I didn't mean to step on anybodys toes and I am
    	not 'having a go' I just wanted to understand why that was all,
    	sorry if it came across wrong...
    
    
    	J (No house, no wife, no kids and totally selfish...so what the	
    	   f**k do I know!!! :*)
    

I like your notes Kev.  They hit my thoughts right on the money.

Lets try this:

<place tongue firmly in cheek>
I'd personally rather play like Jeff Cooper...Perhaps along the way, 
I'll rip off some of the great lix from all *your* heros.  :)
Right now, I'm still trying to perfect my vibrato.  :)
<remove your tongue now>

jc

RE: .1186

Well, you better go back and read their notes again... Else you might GET a 
wife, kids, two cars, mortgage payment etc... :)  Then you'll be writing 
MIDI Rack Puke Rap songs with terrible riffs like me.  :)  

Seriously though.  I think my guitar playing has gotten better since I got 
married.  Anyone else notice that, or am I imagining things ??  I wonder if
its just cuz I pay more attention to playing, than I did when I was a pup
(as opposed to paying attention to the girls in the audience.)...   :)

    RE:  Coop working on his vibrato ...
    
    As I said to him offline ... it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.  8^)
    
    
    RE:  Progressing ... giving up ... 
    
    Doesn't DEC teach *everyone* that there is no such thing as a problem,
    only an `opportunity' to provide a solution ?   Yeah, pretty hokey, but
    there is a hint of truth on that way of thinking.  Personally, I spent
    a LOT of years playing in bars, all types of music, folks would
    generally give me compliments on my abilities when I thought they were
    poor - why ?  Because I couldn't do Gilbert, even with Buck sending me
    all the tricks - because I couldn't do SRV, even though I have access
    to a similar hat - because I couldn't do VanHalen, even though I used
    5150 strings and painted my hotrodded strat in a similar manner.  Fact
    was, I was doing what *I* do well.  I did it well because I did it
    twice a week at practice and twice a week at the gigs - I should do
    *those* licks well.  
    
    Now I find myself mired up to the ears in blues ... fast, slow,
    whatever. I feel comfortable there, thus my playing is amazing *me*. 
    The guys I jam with now all like the same stuff, and we provide a good
    base to grow on. 
    
    I *hate* to hear players go on about what they can't do.  Yeah, I'm
    listening to Eric Johnson right now - no, I can't touch a lot of that
    stuff.  I'll survive.  Pat Blair is a good example of what to do.  I've
    seen him go from pre_novice tomn accomplished player.  He admits he's
    still got a way to go, but we all do.  He plays for fun - makes it fun
    - blossoms.  He'll tell anyone he's a hack, but when I jam with the guy
    I can't help but raise an eyebrow every now and then.
    
    Greg - don't sell yourself short pal.  Paul Gilbert couldn't do your
    job either.  Let the stringed beasts be a source of enjoyment and
    release.  I *do* miss not gigging in the bars, but it's nice to pick up
    my guitar and learn/play what *I* want to rather than what the band's
    currently working on.  I can set my own time tables ...
    
    Yeah, I rambled, sue me ...  8^)
    
    Scary  
    

    	I find that it goes through cycles.  My guitar playing has changed 
    so much over the last twelve months that it is amazing.  Some days
    I feel like there is nothing I can't say with a guitar and some days
    I can't play to save myself.
    
    	But I wonder to the average person if it would make that much diff
    erence?  When I first started to play and I would listen to a song I
    would only hear guitars playing then as I started to play in bands 
    and write my own material I started to hear bass and drums and keys
    etc so my point is that early on I probably wouldn't have noticed if
    the worlds greatest bass player was playing and so most *normal* 
    people don't notice if it is not Stevie Ray or Eddie or Dave Guilmor
    playing as long as the *feel* is there.
    
    	Also I find it amazing that us *muso's* are so hard on ourselves 
    when we compare our ability to those of our heroes who are the "Best
    in the world".  That is a lot of pressure to put on your self.  I have
    never wanted to play solo"s note for note , but rather try and get 
    the feel of the song and play my notes.  Lets face it there is no way
    that physically I could play Eric's Crossroads solo note for note.
    But I could catch the feel and give a good Peter Knight solo over it.
    
    	I can't imagine B.B.King sitting down and trying to two hand tap a
    Van Halen solo.  His life seems to be full and happy.  My point is
    we should try and become the best we can, and always inject *us* into
    what we play.  And if I can't play 100000notes a second ...big deal.
    
    Hey Scary I think I ourt rambled you.......8^).
    
    P.K.

    First off, let me say that I definitely didn't word my response exactly
    as I wanted to.  I screwed up and did something stupid that I couldn't
    recover from and lost the text of the original reply which was nearly
    complete.  Then I got in a big hurry and tried to capture the essence
    of what I said before I had to rush off and meet someone and didn't
    quite say what I meant.
    
    Hopefully I'll be better able to clarify it in this note...

    re: .1186 (Jason)

>    Greg you say you have given up so what....I didn't mean to step
>    on anybodys toes 

    When I say that I've "given up", what I mean is that I no longer worry
    about the fact that I'm not able to play what EJ, Satch, or anyone else
    can play.  I'm comfortable with the fact that I can't, and probably
    won't ever play like that.  That doesn't mean I've given up on playing,
    practicing, or trying to improve myself.  Much to the contrary, I feel
    my playing is now the best it's ever been.  That's not saying it's
    great now, but it's better then it has been.  It's improving all the
    time and I'm happy with that.  

    So basically, I haven't "given up" any of MY personal goals, because
    I've never had a goal to play other peoples music exactly the way they
    played it!  I've never had a goal to be able to play as well as the
    most skillful guitarists on earth.

    The "So what" comment was kind of a flip remark directed toward the
    impression I'd gotten (perhaps mistakenly) from one of your previous
    notes that everyone should somehow believe that they can play the stuff
    that their music heros play.  I feel that if I'm happy with my playing
    and I'm enjoying it, I don't need to have aspirations to play like some
    specific person who is better then I am.   
    
    Anyway, don't worry about it, my toes weren't stepped on, I didn't feel
    angry with you.  If you have such aspirations, hey, more power to you. 
    I sincerely hope you achieve your goals!

>    	J (No house, no wife, no kids and totally selfish...so what the	
>    	   f**k do I know!!! :*)

    Keep it that way and you'll have a much greater chance of keeping up
    with the pace of learning you've set for yourself (no matter what it
    is).

    re: .1191 (Scary)

>    Greg - don't sell yourself short pal.  

    Oh, I don't!  I think I'm pretty realistic in appraising myself, my
    strong and weak points.  I believe that I'm a creative person.  I like
    my musical ideas and my playing (sometimes).  I also get frustrated
    with myself and my level of ability at times, not because I can't play
    like Paul Gilbert, but because I can't play what *I* want to play.

    Yeah, I can be hard on myself at times, but if I wasn't I wouldn't keep
    improving, would I?

>    Paul Gilbert couldn't do your job either.  

    ...and he wouldn't want to!  I don't even want to most of the time, but
    it pays the bills and it's the only thing that I do well enough to make
    a living at right now.

>    Let the stringed beasts be a source of enjoyment and release.

    BELIEVE me, it is absolutely the  best release that I have!  Playing
    the guitar has always been a pleasure for me and a grand release, I'm
    sure it always will be.

    Looks like I rambled more then either Scary or Peter, oh well...
    8^)                    

    Greg

    Yeah Greg, that does sound a lot better than your original reply a few
    back.
    
    We all just need to keep in perspective that no matter *what* we play,
    our own signature will come through.  Every heard Coop play `The Thrill
    Is Gone' ?  He plays it well, but if you know Coop you'll recognize the
    lix - that's GREAT !  
    
    RE:  Paul Gilbert doing Greg's job ...
    Hey, you never know ... if it was *that* bad, you wouldn't do it.
    
    Which brings me to another point.  There's almost no reason, other than
    a physical deformity, that limits our playing abilities.  I feel it's a
    matter of priorities and goals.  Last night I labored over the pretty
    guitarchord passages to `On Every Street' by Dire Straits.  I just sat
    down and hacked it out - a week ago, I only wanted to get close.  So at
    one point I was convinced it was too tough - but I made up my mind and
    just TOOK the time, made it a GOAL, and did it.  That's what all our
    heroes have done too - it's just to a larger degree.  They just don't
    know DCL ...  8^)  Well, Bo does, but ...
    
    Just do it ...
    
    Scary (pronounced SHAR DAY ... 8^)

    
    
    Buck, here I was thinking that Bob Conroy was *just?* a great classical
    player.  He plays EJ that way, too?  8-}
    
    Bob, how about putting an electric entry on the Guitar Noters Vol 4
    tape?  I for one would really like to hear it!
    
    
    
    As for the "I'm happy to sound like me" discussion, I guess I've never
    really been happy sounding like me.  Whenever I hear a guitar part that
    I really like, I always get a case of the "how does he *do* that"'s.
    At that moment, I want to sound like whoever I'm listening to, not me! 
    Most times I can figure it out and work it up to speed.
    
    When I was trying to learn the 16th-notes-from-Hell in Buck's Fallen
    Angel tune for a DECjam, I worked on getting my right hand up to speed
    for *weeks*.  I never got near learning the harmony parts of the solo. 
    

    Now, along comes Steve Morse, EJ, bunch-of-others.  I try the usual
    woodshedding to learn the song.   Ummm, must be studio tricks; nobody
    is that fast and accurate.  Oh, he is that fast and accurate.  OK, I'll
    put the CD on infinite repeat and play this 5-second section for a while. 
    (20 minutes later) Nope, this isn't happening.  
    
    And so I bag it.  Maybe I'll come back to it later, maybe not.  I still
    think that it's entirely reasonable to be out played by the likes of
    EJ.  No shame in that.  Nothing to slam down the guitar about.  I
    always have fun, even if I can't get the song right.
    
    Of course, when the drummer in the band says "How about learning Cliffs
    of Dover for next week?" I *am* tempted to slug him.
    
    Kevin
    
    
    
    

    Suggestion: there's a lot of good stuff in here that should probably be
    moved to a tab note instead of being left here to be destroyed.
    
    Comment on Satch, EJ, et. al:  It was stated that we can't do their job, 
    but they can't do ours.  It should also be noted that they can't play
    like us (because they wouldn't want to ;-)).  Someone said in here
    recently that a person's sounds is 90% them and 10% equipment.  With
    everyone being so different, we can't duplicate each other, but can
    do a general imitation.
    
    Mike

    This conversation reminds me of why my guitar heros are Lou Reed, Neil
    Young and Ron Asheton  8^)   8^)
    
    						Brian

    
    Well, presently there is much that I cannot do on the guitar.  If
    it were any different, I'd probably quit the guitar and take up
    drums. ;-)
    
    But I will *never* say that I will *never* be able to play like
    EJ, Vai, VH, whoever....there are some that I wouldn't *want* to
    sound like (Satch for one) and so I'll never try to learn his stuff,
    and those I won't have time for, and probably a good many I may 
    never develop the ability to duplicate, but I'll keep on trying
    to learn something, ANYTHING.
    
    Like Kevin M. was saying, (and I'm adding a bit of my own interpret-
    ation here) perhaps we don't have to learn to do exactly what the
    greats are doing.  For example, that 20 minutes Kevin spent trying
    to play the 5-second-EJ-lick wasn't a complete loss.  I believe it's
    quite possible that lick, or some of the speed and agility that it
    requires will pop up spontaneously somewhere in one of his solos
    some night (and from what I've heard on Vol. III it already has).
    
    I used to play along with Led Zep, Deep Purple, Rush and Santana for 
    hours, and sometimes I'll go back and say "wow, I didn't know WHAT 
    the heck I was doing", but just as often I realize how much of their 
    styles rubbed off on me when I wasn't looking.
    
    I stopped playing the guitar almost completely for about 3 months once.
    When I picked it up again, I fell in love all over again, started
    playing better and faster than ever, and have never really fallen
    below that plane (though it was still rough by any standard).  
    
    So don't discount the power of your subconscious in all of this.  If
    you believe you can do it, you can.  When I start to doubt this, I 
    become a guitar-slinging klutz.
    
    guy

    But Brian, Lou Reed had some killer guitar players playing with him
    from time to time!  I loved Steve Hunter on "Rock & Roll Animal", he
    RIPPED!
    
    Greg

Let me sound a bit pompus, I deserve it :-)

I play like dbii, if y'all hear some blackmore, clapton, gibbons, etc. in there
well thanks for the compliment. I'm spending my time trying to make my playing,
especially my solos, tastefully musical. In other words I am more interested 
in the sound of the final product than "sounding like so and so". Of course 
this is alot easier when  you have a rack that sounds like heaven, a guitar 
that's unbeatable, a band that's tight, a singer that's awesome and all 
original (and hopefully) commercial material. I'm not doing the human jukebox
thing anymore.

dbii

    After perusing all the previous notes, I have only one esoteric (but
    optimistic) comment to make:
    
    	You'll have reached guitar nirvana when you can play as well as
    (insert your name here) can play. When you sound like (again, insert
    your name here) SHOULD sound and play licks with the style of (guess
    who?), then you can consider yourself a great player, regardless of
    whether your style borrows from Vai, Segovia, Pass, Atkins, Berry or
    Joey Ramone.
    
    					Cal C.
    					(whose playing suffered when he
    					 realised he wasn't the next
    					 Hendrix, but got back on track
    					 when he knew there was no need for
    					 more than one Hendrix, but there
    					 was for another original player)
    

    
    I should've added somewhere in .20 that I believe that ultimately
    we have to have confidence in our own style and forget comparing
    ourselves to others.
    
    guy

    
    
    	Good debate......
    
    
    	I'd like to modify my original statement when I said that I'm going
    	be better than Gilmour I think what I actually mean is that when I
    	get the same buzz listening to myself play that I get when I listen
    	to Gilmour play....then I'll be a happy person indeed.....
    
    
    	J

    Hey Jason, I wonder if Gilmore gets the same buzz listening to what
    plays as you get from it.  Maybe someone else would get something from
    your playing that you don't.  Interesting thought, huh?
    
    gh

    We're all our own worst critics .... something that sounds `normal' to
    me, might blow away someone else when they hear it.  
    
    ... just play ... and don't spill my beer ...
    
    Scary