Conference napalm::guitar

    Interesting.  So it's not just my fat fingers after all.
    
    When I first played my 360/12, I found that I could do about 95% of my
    normal stuff on it without modification, but I did have to adjust a
    little bit for the other 5%.  For instance, on the standard C chord,
    I had to pull my index finger down just a touch towards the first
    string(s) because it was touching the third string(s) and causing some
    buzzing and muting.  But the guitar trained me well, and I was playing
    fairly clean after a few hours.
    
    I haven't really noticed a serious problem with the 360/12 not "playing
    in tune."  Once tuned (which is fun), it stays put fairly well, and I
    would say the intonation is quite good.  I haven't touched the factory
    setup in the 6 months or so I've had the guitar.
    
    Re-stringing the beast is a real pleasure.  Took me almost an hour the 
    first time!  I'm getting better at it.
    
    I don't know if I'd change now... I've become somewhat attached to the
    guitar... but I'll give the 660 a feel when I run into one.
    
    								Marc
    
    P.S.  Can we assume the price is about the same as a 360/12... that is,
    	  about $1K +- 20% or so?
                                 

    A dealer in Georgia has the TP 660 12 in both black and fireglow with
    a case listed in their newsletter for $1100. I forget what the list is.
    
    jim

    	Anybody who wants ANYTHING by Rickenbacker can contact me,
    I can get you anything you'd like for VERY LITTLE over dealer cost.
    Be forwarned though, if it has to be ordered it's typically a 9 to 12
    month wait from Rickenbacker...and the limited editions like the Tom
    Petty and the new Chris Squire bass are typically a one year wait
    and availability is limited by how fast they fill up the 2000 orders
    for the limited run.
    	Insiders tip: If you'd like to avoid a one year wait and a high
    price for a 360/12v64, (A Re-issue of George Harrisons from the "Hard
    Day's Night" era...)  there'll be TWO 360/12v64's available very
    soon...I know because the 3rd one is mine!
    Tom T.

    ... so I looked at one.  I figured if the strings were really much
    farther apart and it was much easier for me to play, now is the time to
    switch, rather than later when I'm more attached to my 360/12.
    
    What I found: The strings are only very slightly farther apart.  I'd say
    the outer two E-strings on the 660 are maybe only 1/16" (1/8" max) 
    farther apart than on the 360.  The neck itself may be wider... I don't 
    recall... but the string spacing is identical for the most part.  I have 
    just as much (and just as little) trouble with the 660 as the 360.
    
    That being the case, I like the 360 better.  As .0 mentioned, the
    tuners are nicer on the 360.  Also, the 360 has the "R" tailpiece which
    is quite a bit nicer than the hollow rectangle on the 660.  The guitars
    sound identical, by the way.
    
    So, no change for me.
    
    								Marc 

    The difference in string spacing between my Ricks was 3/16" at the nut.
    
    Believe it or not, this is a huge difference. In electric guitars,
    narrow necks are generally 1-9/16" to 1-5/8" and wide necks are
    1-11/16"-1-3/4". Many players consider a 1-3/4" neck superwide, but
    it's my favorite size.  I have had some guitars with 1-13/16"
    necks--this is staring to get a little wide for me. I don't even like
    6-strings with less than 1-11/16" necks. Classical players feel that
    anything less than 2" is too narrow.
    
    On the 660, the string spacing at the bridge was the same as on the
    360, there was just less taper towards the nut. 
    
    
    Danny W.
       

    Yeah, the 1/16" to 1/8" I mentioned, I compared them at the 12th fret, 
    so that would jive with the 3/16" you mentioned at the nut, considering
    that the bridge is the same.
    
    Just wasn't enough difference to me to prompt a change.
    
    								Marc

    One of the things that made this switch easier to do is that I have a
    381-12 on order, so I'll still have a hollowbody 12 (with a skinny
    neck). It's been on order for a year and should arrive sometime this
    century. Rick customer service said I'm on their  "priority" list, so I
    know it can't be more than a few years :-(
    
    Danny W.

    If anyone in the Metrowest area is interested in checking out a
    TP 660, I saw one in passing at Daddy's Shrewsbury (of all places).
    Looked very nice.
    
    /rick

    So sure enough, my 381-12V69 arrived shortly after I got the 660-12.
    For awhile, I ignored it, but it was so pretty that I had to start
    using it. Although I like the neck on the 660, the 381 body size and
    style is more to my liking. The highly carved body is gorgeous, with
    lots of bird's-eye and an extremely deep, perfectly applied Fire-glo
    finish. It has an "R" tailpiece, 12-string bridge, vintage pickups and
    Kluson-style tuners. The large, checkerboard binding on both sides is 
    beautifully done and the only workmanship flaw I can find is a slight
    ledge between the binding and the body in a few small areas.
    
    The sound is surprising, being very rich, but with more than enough
    brightness to sound right for Rick-type tunes. When I compared the 660
    to my 360-12V64, I preferred the 660, but this time around the 381
    wins.
    
    For the last year, I've been using both, but recently I've been playing
    the 381 much more, skinny neck and all, to the point where I'm trading
    the 660 for a 370-12. I seem to be going around in circles. 
    
    These are guitars I hate to love; somehow I manage to do both. On
    the other hand, between the Beatles and the Byrds, there is more than
    enough  musical incentive to put up with the Rick's idiosyncrasies.
    
    Danny W. 
    

    As a Ric fanatic and owner of a McGuinn 370-12, a 360/12v64 , and
    a 660/12TP, I'd echo the comments on the quality of these guitars.
    Ric obviously takes care with the production they turn out. I've 
    heard that they are putting in a new paint spray system in their 
    plant and this will now allow higher production levels. Apparently
    the old system combined with EPA rules limited the number of guitars
    which could be finished in a day. I hope this increase in production
    won't affect their quality. On the other hand, perhaps one won't have
    to wait a year and a half for a custom order.
    
    As for my experiences with these guitars, originally the narrow necks
    on the 360/12s gave me a hard time, especially after playing acoustic
    12 strings with very wide necks. As time wore on, however I find these
    necks even easier to play, and now prefer them. The 660TP has quite a
    wide neck compared to the standard 360s, and I now find it too wide.
    My favorite of the bunch is the 360/12v64. Narrow neck, beautiful
    range of sounds. I also like the two pickup arrangement better than
    the 3 pickup 370. I play with a finger picking style, sometimes
    augmented with a pick. I find that the third pickup in the middle
    gets in the way.
    
    I've not played the 381. I'm afraid that GTS would strike again. 
    I saw the most gorgeous maple-glow 381 I've ever seen at Wirlitzer
    in Boston this summer. It had a really gorgeous birds-eye maple top.
    If you're in the neighborhood, its well worth a look.
    
    jim

    Strangely enough, I found the same thing about the wider neck--although
    it provides more clearance, it actually seems harder to play than the
    standard neck.
    
    Whatever you do, don't try that 381. If you do, you will want to own
    it. Mine  is amazingly nice and I have  no reason to think that it is
    anything special.
    
    It is rather heavy, though. I recently did a standup gig with the 381
    and my double-cut White Falcon, and the Gretsch was the *lighter* of
    the two.
    
    Danny W.

    
    Sounds like a class act!
    
    
    

    I previously (1850.25) complained about the difficulty of doing routine
    maintenance on Rick 12-strings, but over the weekend I had an
    instructive  comparison doing similar work on two guitars. 
    
    One of them, a Gibson ES-355, needed to have a little less neck relief,
    which normally takes me 5 minutes. I also wanted to replace the bridge
    pickup mounting ring with a slightly lower one, so I had to loosen the
    strings, remove the string ends from the tailpiece, remove 4 mounting
    screws, remove the two pickup height adjusting screws, and reverse the
    procedure to re-install the pickup. Then, I removed the two screws
    holding the truss rod cover, tightened the truss rod, replaced the
    cover and did a final tuning. The only tricky part was getting the
    pickup adjustment screws back in the pickup, since the springs kept
    trying to launch themselves across the room. Total elapsed time: about
    15 minutes.
    
    On to the Rick, a 370-12 which also needed to have a straighter neck.
    Unlike the Gibson, the Rick truss rod cover can't be removed without
    loosening the strings. I've gotten pretty good at estimating the amount
    of tightening needed on both truss rods, so I adjust them, replace  the
    cover and start to re-tune. Oops, the strings are flat on the
    fretboard. Okay, I tune about half of them until the tension feels
    right, but they're still on the frets. No problem: I just raise the
    bridge until they're high enough to tune and start the death-defying
    task of getting all twelve strings up to standard pitch without
    breaking any, even the octave G. This alone takes longer than the whole
    Gibson job did, but eventually they're all more or less in tune. 
    
    Not bad. The neck has just the right amount of relief, too. Now all I
    have to do is lower the bridge and re-tune. And here is where I get
    really stupid. Although I know that it's important to adjust the four
    bridge screws carefully to keep it balanced,  somehow I managed to get
    the @#$% thing tilted at about a 45 degree angle (don't attempt this
    while watching TV, kids) and no matter what I turn, it shows no
    tendency to straighten up. Rather than risk doing something even more
    stupid, like break a string, I loosen all the strings, level the
    bridge, re-tune and, *carefully* this time, lower the bridge and do a
    final tuning. Whew! Total elapsed time: 2 hours.
    
    I don't know which is more painful, playing them or servicing them. At
    least with the former, I get to do "Bells Of Rhymney."
    
    Danny W

    re -1
    
    Wow! I was thinking about upgrading to a 12 saddle bridge on my
    360/12v64. It sounds like sticking needles in my eyes might be
    more fun.
    
    :+)

    re: last few
    
    I would never do that myself.  This is one of the main reasons I
    work... so that I can pay qualified people to work on my cars and
    guitars.  That and so I can buy tuna for my cats.
    
    By the way, can I assume from the last reply that it would be possible
    to put a 12 saddle bridge on my 1990 360/12?  Seems like that might be
    a good idea as the intonation is never just right.
    
    							Marc

    I started doing my own guitar repairs because when I started playing,
    there weren't repair techs. Even though that situation has long since
    changed, I still prefer to do my own work.
    
    I pay people to do work for me because they can do it better, or
    because it's dangerous, or because it's physically too difficult or
    because it requires special tools or training or because it will save
    me lots of time. In the case of setting up a guitar (even a Rick), no
    one does better setups for me than I do and it took me no longer than
    if I had taken it somewhere and had to go pick it up again. Most setups
    take me less time to do than to explain to someone else what I want
    done, and as a bonus, I don't have to worry about the guitar getting
    damaged in the shop. 
    
    I'm probably going to put a 12-string bridge on the 370-12--I wish I
    had had one on Saturday.
    
     
    Danny W.

RE: "I wish I had had one on Saturday"
    
    I wish I had a 12 string Rick.....today!
    
    8^)                                    

    
    I recently ordered a 12-saddle bridge for my Rick 360/12.
    
    Problem is that straight from the factory, it has not yet
    been filed for string notches...   Anyone out there have 
    any ideas who I could take it to have the grooves or notches
    properly filed into it?  I would want to use the original 
    6-saddle bridge as a template for proper string spacing and
    depth, so it looks like whoever does it will only have one
    shot at doing it right....  and of course I wouldn't want
    to admit what Rickenbacker charged me for the part!!!
    
    Any help would be greatly appreciated.
    
    /Steve

	O.k....  here's the lowdown...  I just put in a special order 
	for a Rickenbacker 381/12V69 in natural mapleglo, highly figured
	carved top & back... 

	I confess, I've had a long standing love affair with Rick 12 strings,
	and I've had my eye on one of these for a long time.

	This particular model is the flagship of their electric 12-string
	line, and can take up to a year for delivery.  (Rickenbacker is
	notoriously slow... they are a small California based company and
	build _all_ their guitars in their Santa Ana manufacturing facility.)

	I found a dealer who has had one on order for about 3 to 4 months,
	and he expects it may take another six months before I'll see it.

	So now I'm faced with the hardest part of all....  waiting for this
	thing to arrive...  

	you can take a peek at one on the Rickenbacker web site... 
	www.rickenbacker.com.... under vintage reissue models, they have
	pictures of both a six and twelve string.... I ordered the 12, but
	the color will be what's shown on the six string model.

	Any bands out there looking to add that Rick 12-string rhythm
	guitar sound to their music????   Give me a call!!!

	/Steve

    I must admit, I've had the hots for a Ricky 12 for a long time myself.
    I went through stages where I lusted for a TP660-12, but my more recent
    urge is for a 360-12V64. This is the old-style 360 with binding on
    both the front and back edge of the body. Newer 360s have a rounded
    front edge with binding only on the back edge. My favorite Ricky finish
    is Fireglow, but Maple-glow is a close second. 
    
    I'm sure you've read this entire note and know that Danny Weber has
    a 381 just like the one you have on order. If you are as anxious as I
    would be, you might consider calling around to the major dealers around
    the country to see if anyone has one in stock. Start with Lark St.
    Music in Albany, NY.   Mr. Music in Allston might have one. Deccie
    Tom Testagrossa (of Charlie Dee Blues band fame) is a small-time
    Rick dealer and usually has several Ricks for sale. There are many
    other major dealers that might have one, including Mannies, Sam Ashe,
    Elderly, Mandolin Bros, Gruhn, etc. 
    
    There is no way I could be patient for an entire year! If you can't
    find one from a dealer, you might save the money until the next
    major guitar show and look for one there. At last years New England
    show Mr. Music had a new 360-12V64 in Fireglow. GTS is a terrible
    thing!
    
    	In any event, good luck. Hope it doesn't take too long!
    
    	Mark
    
    

    Gee Steve looking for the Roger Mc Guinn gig,well let me know if you
    get a gig before you get the guitar as I've got a 67 Guild Starfire
    12 for sale that I'd make you a deal on!
    
    It took me a month to learn that an electric 12 string is a much
    different animal from 6  :^)  Then again anyone seen any 7 string 
    archtops around?
    
    Rick
    

    
    Sounds like a beauty.  And ordering direct is cool 'cause then
    you don't have to buy one that's suffered through a music store. 
    
    
    Dave
    

    re .20
    
    I actually already have a fireglo 360/12 (with rounded front edge),
    and will probably be putting it up for sale _after_ the 381/12 arrives.
    I prefer the rounded edge 360s to the V64 style with bound edges, but
    the 381, with its raised German carve top and back is in a league of
    its own, though the body profile is closer to the 360v64 and 330 style.
    
    Re: fireglo vs. mapleglo, I actually tend to agree with your slight
    preference for fireglo,  but I decided to go for the mapleglo for a
    couple of reasons - first, it's already on order with Rickenbacker and
    will arrive sooner than if I initiated a new order;  secondly and more
    importantly, there is quite a bit of variation in the fireglo finishes
    on different Ricks -- you never know exactly what it will be -- I've seen
    some that are absolutely stunning, and some that I don't care for at all,
    so I figured I'd be safer going for the natural finish -- 'cause I know
    what color it's going to be.
    
    I have read through all the Rickenbacker threads in this conference,
    and was also wondering if there are any Rick owners left in here. I
    haven't seen a post from Danny W. or any of the others in quite a
    while.  I noticed that Danny had to wait two years for his order to
    arrive.  Hopefully, since my order is already in the pipeline, it will
    be quicker than that...  time will tell.
    
    /Steve

    re: .21
    
    Ya, I think all byrd lovers are Rick 12-string lovers by default...
    I read recently that Roger McGuinn got that incredible ringing sound
    from his rick 12 by running it through _two_ compressors and a delay
    in the studio... one of these days I'm going to have to try it and see
    how close I can get just for grins... 'course I don't think I'll ever
    be able to duplicate his picking style, unless I learn how to play 
    banjo first!  :-)
    
    You hit the nail on the head with your comment about electric 12s
    being completely different beasts than 6's...  I think they are
    much more difficult to play -- they can really shred your finger
    tips,  but the sound makes it all worthwhile. I also think they're
    better suited to rhythm playing than lead...unless of course you're
    someone like Leo Kottke.
    
    /Steve

    I'd love a Rick 12, but was able to somewhat sate my lust for one with
    a Strat XII that I got a great deal on (mentioned somewhere in this
    notes conference).  I must admit, I don't play it very often, but it is
    nice to be able to pull it out when I get that incredible urge for a
    rousing chorus of "Mr. Tamborine Man"...
    
    Re: McGuinn picking style
    
    I'm predominately a fingerpicker, but I find fingerpicking an electric
    12 very difficult.  With the light guage strings, it's real hard to
    pick both strings cleanly at once.  Even when playing some of the byrds
    stuff, I'll use a flatpick (if reasonable).  Does Mr. McGuinn use
    fingerpicks when playing a 12?  It seems likely, since he also plays 
    banjo.
    
    Jim (call me Roger) Allbery

    Well, if you're not sure about a Rickenbacker 12-string, you might
    want to consider an 8-string:
    
    		http://www.mandoweb.com/13-7703.htm

    re: .25 (Roger Allbery)  ;-)
    
    Yes, the article said McGuinn was an accomplished banjo player, and
    did use fingerpicks on the Rick 12.  He must have found it somewhat
    difficult also, as the article goes on to discuss that on some of his
    arpeggios, he inadvertantly grazed neighboring strings as the spacing
    was quite close on the Rickenbacker.  Also, McGuinn said that when
    the Byrds were at their peak in the mid-60s, he used to practice
    scales on the Rick constantly.  After Clarence White joined and took
    the band in more of a country oriented direction with his B-bending
    Tele, McGuinn said that the Rick 12 spent most of it's time in the
    case...  kind of a shame, IMHO. 
    
    /Steve 

    My problem (without fingerpicks) isn't hitting neighboring strings, 
    but rather not getting both strings.  This is particularly annoying
    when you only get the octave string.  And those wimpy little strings
    sometimes actually get caught between my flesh and finger nail...
    
    Jim (who thinks he'll pull out the Strat XII tonight)

    re: .26
    
    Ya, those are cute little 8-string buggers on the mandoweb..., but
    I wouldn't have a clue what to do with a mandolin..
    
    Check out   http://www.mandoweb.com/13-6170.htm  for something to
    really drool over...
    
    /Steve

    > I wouldn't have a clue what to do with a mandolin..
    
    It's simple... you just have to think upside down and backwards
    (a mando is tuned in fifths GDAE, low to high, sort of the
    inverse of the bottom four strings of a guitar).  Just play 
    upside-down guitar chords.  ;^)
    
    I used to cheat and tune my mandolin CFAD, so I could use
    guitar fingerings.  The top string was down a step from normal
    mandolin pitch (the high E is normally an octave higher than a
    guitar).
    
    Anyway, my 2 year old has declared that the mandolin is HIS, so
    more often than not, the tuning is not recognizable (but we have
    fun).
    
    Jim

    re: .23
    
    It did take a few years for my 381-12 to arrive, but since then I have
    seen them from time to time at vintage dealers. Lark St. Music had a
    Mapleglo one that I was truly tempted to buy but I managed to
    procrastinate til it disappeared.
    
    My 381 is a wonderful instrument. It was worth the wait.
    
    Danny W.

    re: -1
    
    Danny,
    
    Good to see you back in guitar notes after what seems to have been an
    extended hiatus...
    
    I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of the 381/12.  It was ordered on Jan
    6, '97, so hopefully I will only have a few more months to wait. 
    
    It would be nice if Ricks were more readily available, but then again,
    if they chose to increase production, it would almost certainly have a
    negative impact on their quality.
    
    By the way, do you have any ideas of a good person or business that I
    could bring a Rick 12-saddle bridge to, to have it filed and grooved
    for retro-fitting to a 360/12?
    
    /Steve

    I haven't been gone--just haven't seen many topics of interest to me
    lately.
    
    I agree about Rick keeping their quality high by letting their backlog
    grow. The whole company is a "custom shop".
    
    I can't help on the bridge--I do all my own work and don't know any
    local repairpersons.
    
    Danny W.