Conference napalm::guitar

       
       
       
       
       
       
       I see Ovations with pickups in the Recycler for $250 and up.
       Don't know what these Applause guitars are about...
       
       
       
       
       
       

	The Applause line from Ovation is their lower line.  I'd think for the
$300 to $400 you have to spend, you could at least get into the Ultras (is that
the right name?).  Above that is the Balladeers, the Legends and the Elites (in 
ascending order of quality/price.

	I bought a used Balladeer for the general price range you mention and I 
have been fairly happy with it.  They're good for live performance (amplified),
but they can't compete with a Gibson or such that has had time to age and
mellow.

	To the general notership:  Is Applause the line that Ovation used 
aluminum necks?

	Dan

    The Applause line does have aluminum necks.  Basically the neck
    consists of a cast aluminum fretboard, frets and truss rod (all one
    piece).  The back of the neck is covered with the stuff they making
    bowling balls out of.  I guess if you need a fret job, you have to
    replace the entire neck.   
    
    I have a kind of unusual (I believe) Applause that has a graphite
    top (most have spruce).  I guess Ovation was experimenting with using
    some of the Adamas technology on a lower-end instrument (it does have
    a round sound hole, however).   I use it as my beater guitar-- it 
    sounds decent and is indestructable. 
    
    Jim

	I remember trying the aluminum necks once.  It seemed like an o.k. idea
until you tried bending a note.  SCRATCH!

	Dan

    You could get a decent Takamine for $400 too.

    Ohhhhh, so this "Applause" is an Ovation?  All it said was "Applause"
    on it.  I thought it sounded pretty good, I really did not spend some
    serious time on it though...  Was there any problem with these aluminum
    necks?  I didn't recal bending strings and hearing scratches???
    
    If I take another look at this guitar, it will be a thorough, more
    serious try-out.  What should a bottom of the line Ovation like
    this sell for used?
    
    thanks, Mark

    Umm...not to throw out a nit here or anything, but I can't personally
    see how moving from a 15 year old Alvarez to an Applause (or any other
    low end guitar) would be an "upgrade".  Alvarez makes nice stuff.  
    
    I've always thought that Applauses were cheap.  They sure don't hold
    their value, I've seen lots of them selling used for under $100 (in
    good condition, I might add).  I've also heard that they have bad
    problems with the tops coming out of the composite material back.
    
    Caveat Emptor...
    
    Greg

    I agree... Keep the Alvarez.  I think they sound/play GREAT !
    
    I have an Ovation, and I think it rots.  If you want it, I'll sell it
    to you for $100...I know where I can get a nice Alvarez
    Electric/Acoustic for $100, and I'd upgrade in a heart beat.
    
    First thing you have to know about Ovations...They crack.
    The plastic won't expand/contract, but the wood does.  Boink.
    There it is.
    
    Plus that silly salad bowl back goes sliding about on your
    knee/belly...
    
    Now if you REALLY wanna upgrade, get yourself a Tak.
    
    jc

    Re last 2
    
    I also agree.  I had an Alvarez and when I decided to updgrade it was 
    to a Martin D28.  Of course there are serveral models of Alvarez,, mine
    was a limited edition in the 5 to 6 hundred dollar range.  Nice guitar
    but not as nice as the Martin.
    
    Bruce May
    

    Well, I really appreciate the feedback...  I do like my Alvarez, 
    however it is a bottom line model, "SML" is the model, if I recall
    correctly.  
    
    Guess I'm just looking for something different from what I have...
    You all know the feeling I'm sure...  I really want something I
    can easily plug in to an amp, with good tone.  Yet I really like
    to keep the $$$ as low as possible.  I also like the cutaway body
    style on the Ovations and others, another feature I don't have
    with the Alvarez.
    
    Seems like the responses on the Ovations are pretty much split for
    and against...  What the heck, if I can find a decent Applause for
    $100 bucks, that will last a few years, I don't have much to loose.
    
    On the other hand, if I can find something else for closer to $300
    that will last years, not loose value, and has all the features I
    want, that is also an option.  
    
    Guess I'll have to check them all out.  By the way, I think all this
    response in one day is super, its great to have so many active noters
    out in this converence.
    
    thanks, Mark

    
    
    >By the way, I think all this
    >response in one day is super, its great to have so many active noters
    >out in this converence.                 
                                              \|/
    	The Botherhood of Tone never sleeps  [;^) <--- Gree Vee giving the
                                              /|\      secret botherhood of
                                                       tone gesture.
    
    	This gesture is usually accompanied by the secret cry.. Nyah Nyah!
    
    	But seriously... I use (reads attempt to play) and Alvarez dy-45
    which was replaced by the dy-38, pretty much a bottom of the line
    guitar... I felt that it had the volume and tone that I'd settle for
    when I realized that there was no way I could afford a Martin d-28.  I
    use it through my amp using a shadow "bug" piezo pickup that attaches
    with a little lump of goo that comes with it.. and run that through a
    DOD bifet-preamp, that I recently purchased for the purpose of amping
    and eqing.  Sounds great through a Fender amp!
    
    

    I thought Ovation stopped making the Applause guitars, and was instead
    making the Celebrity for their entry-level guitars.
    
    This (as I remember it) is the lineup of Ovation guitars (of course,
    all have the fiberglas roundback)
    
    Applause = aluminum fingerboard, polyurethane neck, laminated spruce
    top (out of production?)
    
    Matrix = same as Applause but a bit pricier, also out of production
    
    Celebrity = current low-cost lineup; like stock Ovations except for a
    	laminated spruce top
    
    Ovation = all their standard guitars like the Balladeer, Legend etc.
    	Various woods for the neck and fingerboard, solid spruce top
    
    Adamas = multiple soundholes in graphite-epoxy top, mixed woods for the
    	neck and fingerboard.
    
    BTW, I've played good Ovations and bad; my '74 Custom Balladeer is one
    of the good ones!  I've seen similar variation with Applause; one
    friend of mine has an Applause that looks and sounds and plays like a
    MUCH more expensive guitar.  Just try it; you might get one of the good
    ones!
    
    Eric-who-has-an-Ovation-AND-a-Takamine.........:)

    ...and for the traditionalists, you get a standard body acoustic
    dreadnought with an Ovation pickup system in a Takamine.
    
    Mike (who doesn't like roundbacks and is a traditionalist)

      I have played about 8 differant Applause guitars, and I can truely
    say that they were some of the worse "real" guitars I've ever played.
    "Real guitar" defined as something that you don't buy at K-mart, come
    to think of it, didn't K-mart sell Applause for a while??
    
      Ovation on the other hand have some great instruments - nice sound,
    great action, the back acts a little like a parabolic disc for the
    pick-ups, so they are some of the best through an amp.  I don't like
    the way they slide off your lap, but I play sitting almost always, if
    you play standing with a strap, they are pretty comfortable.
    
      I thought that I would try to move the vote one against.  Buy the
    way, I don't own either.  I prefer the old fashion dreadnought body,
    and I like the warmer tone they give over the Ovations, but then I
    don't play much rock either.
    
    Pete  

    
    Can I get a recommendation for a mid-level price/quality acoustic?
    I'd prefer a traditional back guitar as I think sitting and playing 
    is a natural posture for playign an acoustic (for me, that is).
    Pointers to other notes are fine.  I feel weird about looking at used
    ones since I don't know what to look for.  I play a strat, so the
    action doesn't have to measured in microns 8^)!  

    Pat, Buck still might have his Takamine for sale.  It would be perfect
    for ya!
    
    Mike

    Tak is gone, fyi.

    My .02 FWIW. If you're gonna upgrade, try shopping around for a used
    "hand_made" guitar. I shopped for a week and found my axe. (It's
    described somewhere near the front of this conf. (Note 5.something
    maybe?)). I tuned it up and played ONE chord. (E Maj). I said "I'll
    take it"! It cost me $500.00 with the case. (OK, case wasn't the best
    but I still use it.) This money in Canadian funds is right around the
    price range you desire in U.S. funds. I couldn't be happier. Everyone I
    know (players) says "If you ever wanna get rid of that, remember me
    first". By the way, it's a Paul Hutton.
    dep

    
    	What's the name of that luthier in Burlinton (VT) that has his 
    	own acoustic line?  It's pretty well known...

    James Olson of Olson Guitar in Minnesota makes some really nice custom
    acoustics.  James Taylor and Phil Keaggy are some of his biggest
    customers.  I looked into him at one time, prices for a new one ranged
    from $1000-$1700.  All are handmade (only makes 20 a month).
    
    A used Taylor would be excellent too.
    
    Mike

    I was in the Keene NH music store and played of "Froggy" hand made by
    a luthier that used to work at the Gurian (sp?) plant before that burned
    down.  If I rememberit right, he was from Vermont and only made very
    few guitars per year.  Absolutely beautifull tone and they were selling discounted 
    because it had had a superficial scratch.  That was quite a while back
    and I am sure its gone by now.
    

    Pat,
    
    Here's some brands to getcha started:
    
    Washburn - Nice new line of stuff...
    Takamine - A little pricey, but WICKED nice stuff.
    Alvarez - Low end stuff is real nice, top end stuff beau-coop-bucks
    Yairi (sp?) - Never played one but they looked nice, and not too much
                  $$
    
    I personally REALLY like Alvarez.  I bought one from John Kidwell that
    I loved - hand made, acoustic/electric - ripped off from my house.  I
    was bummed.  FWIW - John probably still has another not-too-thin-bodied 
    Alvarez elect/acoustic that I played a couple of years ago that was PRIMO !
    Ask him about it !!  He might cutcha a NICE deal on it.
    
    jc

    re 22
    
    Its funny you mention Yairi,,, The Alvarez I owned was a limited
    edition with gold plated tuners, hand picked wood and was and signed 
    inside by Yairi.  I wonder if this guy worked with or for Alvarez at one 
    time.
    
    Bruce
    

re: .23  ("I wonder ...")

   Yes.  Back in the late seventies you could still get Alvarez/Yairi guitars.
   In fact, I didn't know Yairi went out on his(?) own...

   -- Sam

    
    
    
    
    	hey, that's what my dy-45 is... and Alvarez/Yairi...  It's got a
    lifetime warranty... I've sent it back once to have it re-intonated
    cause I put wicked heavy strings on it, and they did fine for no bucks!
    
    Gree Vee (sensitive yet, somehow, deranged)

Kazuo Yairi is a president of Alvarez.  There were two Yairi brands about 10
years ago in Japan, K.Yairi and S.Yairi.  They are owned by Kazuo Yairi and 
Sadao Yairi.  I think S.Yairi no more makes their guitar now.  And I think 
Alvarez and Yairi is the same brand.

Katsuhiko

This may be a bit dated discusion, but here goes...

APPLAUSE,,, Steer clear if you can.  They do not hold out.  I've
seen several with very severe neck problems.  There NOT ovations,
rather they're KAMAN products, (who makes ovations.)

A better choice for a middle line round back baladier style with pickups would
be a Celebrity, again not an "OVATION" as the namesake would imply, but much 
closer..  These are much better then the Appluase, and will not only hold 
there vaule, they'll hold tune too...

    
    When I see guitarists playing out with acoustics these days, I see them
    playing Takamines....used to be mostly Ovations....same goes for "big
    name" musicians.....I saw Pete Townsend, Paul McCartney, etc....using
    Takamines.  Jerry Garcia uses one, also.
    
    I've said my opinion on these before.....I don't like Ovations, they
    just don't feel or sound right to me.  I dislike the guitar sliding in
    my lap, too....
    
    I've always liked Alvarez guitars, too.  I haven't played one of the
    newer Takamines yet, I'm getting ore curious!!!
    
    Dave
    

    I played a Tak.  Wow.  'Nuff said.
    
    jc

      I bought an old "beatup" Balladeer w/o a case for $150.00. Like Coop
    said the wood soundboard doesn't expand and contract at the same rate
    as the fiberglass back so...   "crack city" on the face. You can't
    get away from it unless you're really careful about where you play it.
    If you gig alot with it you "may" wind up with face cracks. Personally,
    I love that guitar (I guess I have a good one) and it records GREAT!
    You should hear what this thing sounds like! I guess I got lucky and
    it didn't cost me alot either. If money was a problem (as it is with me
    at times) I'd look into the used market because you never know what you
    can find. Ofcourse having a good technician to fix your guitar helps
    too! My Ovation needed one new fret (it was damaged) and the action
    lowered and it was like a completely different guitar afterwards. Stock
    Ovation bridge pickup with a volume control only...  mid/late 70's (I
    think) with the original silver Ovation sticker inside. I like it!
    Ofcourse it only cost me $150.00, plus $30.00 for the new fret and
    setup...   so for $180.00 I still think I made out OK. Nice tone too!
    
    				Fred (who got lucky with his Ovation)
    
    
    P.S. BTW...  it has PLENTY of soundboard cracks, but that just adds to
         its character.   ;-)
     

re: Dave...

I have to agree with your comments about Ovations,.  didn't they just
seem like COLD guitars to you ?  They did to me. and like you
I could nevr get comfortable playing them especially sitting down.

But, they've got real good necks, and unfortunately, those necks are perfect
for my hand.  That was the only thing I really liked about mine.  But
the negs severly out did the pluses, and I dumped it.

As far as Taks go, I've tried quite a few, 12s and 6ers, these are
defeintely nice guitars.  Alvarez are outstanding as well, even the 
lower economy ones, are very nice instruments...  

I've got a Ibanez LE420, thin body, and that's the best playing elec/acou
I've had or played to date, BUT there the guitar isn't made for standard
acoustic playing....  So, I've also had to pick up a second dreadnaught
just to have a bonefied acoustic.  However the LE420 does sound really
nice thru and amp with a DSP128+ for grease, chorous and delay...

Four words on acoustics:  Duane Waterman Fine Guitars.

If you can scrape up the money, that's about where it all ends.

Will

    
    
      I've got a 10 year old 12 string Tak that sounds *better* than
    the day I bought it.
      For the $, they can't be beat...
    
    
    RichC
    

    
    
    Re: Applause Acoustics
    
    I own an Applause electro acoustic and its a great guitar. I've owned
    it for about 18 months and I've never had any problems with it. It stays
    in tune well, has a great tone and is practically indestuctable!
    
    I don't have a case for mine, and even after it being sat in the back of
    my car going back and forth for umpteen million rehearsals its still in
    great condition. I paid �274 for mine (new).
    
    -Tony (whos says that cheep does not always mean nasty).

    
    
    BTW. My Applause certainly doesn't have an alliminium neck!!!

    As a long-time acoustic player,I have to say my opinion is....try as
    MANY different guitars as you can lay hands on till you find the one
    that suits YOU.
    	Personally,I've yet to hear an Ovation-type-guitar that comes
    anywhere near a good wooden one when played acoustically...but it's
    a different ball-game when they are amplified!Takamines are,IMHO,
    excellent acoustically,and even better than Ovations wired up.But...
    	Today I spent a couple of hours in the acoustic room of a local
    guitar store,checking out some lower-end guitars for a friend.I tried
    many Washburns,Sigma's,Tanglewoods,and one guitar made in Canada called
    a Seagull.It was matt-finished,natural woods,hand made and cheaper than
    all but the plywood-topped Washburns...and it beat some bigger names
    hands-down!It had an even tone across all strings,was nice and woody-
    sounding and was LOUD!
    	The only drawback was the volute at the top of the neck was a
    wierd,chunky shape,and it interfered with first-position chording.
    If they can get this sorted out,they're onto a winner!
    	I moved on to the up-market guits (Nice Taks among them) and
    had a comparison 'tween them and a Martin HD28....sorry,guys,but
    no contest.The Martin rings out loud and clear,and the bottom strings
    just have this punch that is hard to define,but easy to compare.
    	But the bottom line is;- go for what YOU like,can afford,and
    don't try the Martin section if you ain't got the dough!!!

    I'm an electric (eclectic?) player...
    
    I don't understand all the hub-bub about Martins.  I've played a few of
    them.  They are beautifully crafted, handsome instruments, and they
    sound wonderful but IMHO, they played like doo-doo.  High and stiff
    action, strange necks (fat and wide).  What am I missing here ?
    Why do you acoustic players like them so much ?  Their so HARD to play!
    
    No slam intended, I'm just curious.  Am I missing the point or
    something ?
    
    jc (who loves the feel of a good Tak)

In the General Discussion note there was some talk about someone would have
to be nuts to pay over $2K for a guitar.  Well, I spent more than that for
my Martin D-40BLE.  This guitar will do anything you could reasonably ask
an acoustic to do (this would be an interesting offshoot of the Tone note).
For me, this is why I play Martin acoustics.  But this doesn't answer your
question about why Martins seem so hard to play.

Most Martins are set up for bluegrass and unfortunately never have the action 
adjusted by the owner.  The net result is that most people's impression of 
Martins are that they have actions approaching that of telephone poles.  I 
think you would like the action on my Martin.  It would buzz if it were set 
much lower.
  
To make this a bit more confusing, there are several different necks on Martin
guitars.  Most of the older necks are somewhat like baseball bats while the 
vintage Martins have somewhat of a V-neck.  I don't like either of these.  In 
the last five years, Martin has gone to a low-profile neck (with truss rod) 
that is much closer to what you would find on an electric guitar.  My guitar 
is far easier to play than any of the older unmodified Martins.

Finally there is the issue of the stiff action.  I like the sound of medium
guage strings.  Unfortunately, having something bigger than a .10 on the E
string makes the electric players complain about heavy action.  I don't bend
up whole tones on this guitar, so the medium guage doesn't bother me.

I guess the bottom line is that in terms of playability how the action is set
up makes all the difference in the world.  Any guitar can be set up so that 
it is unplayable.  Unfortunately, for some reason I don't fully understand,
most Martins come out of the factory set up to be almost unplayable.  On the 
other hand, there is the sound.  A shoe box will never sound good no matter
how good the action is set.  Most Martins sound good, some of them are truly
special.  Like most instruments, play them and pay for what you like best.

Jim

    Jim,
    
    Thanks for the info on Martin-itis...  I'd love to try one that was
    set up a little lower than the ones I've tried...  I MUST know why
    the big bucks ya know...  To me it'd be worth it (if I played acoustic
    much) to own one if it sounded wick AND played wicked.
    
    I guess I can't play yours though...Aren't you in England ??
    
    jc
    
    

JC,

Nope, I'm not in England.  I work at ZKO (Nashua, NH).  When I got this beast
I brought it in to work for a day and put a note in here to invite people to 
stop by for a look and a play.  I was surprised that only two people stopped 
by - go figure.  Anyway, I just got off the phone with the person who sold me
my guitar.  She says that Martin is just about totally out of Brazilian 
rosewood and that my guitar will quite possibly be the last model of Brazilian
rosewood guitar that they will ever make.  It seems that Brazilian rosewood 
has gone off the endangered species list and onto the extinct list.  I guess
that pretty soon they won't be able to make 'em like they used to due to lack
of materials.

Jim

    Sounds like this guitar will be worth a FORTUNE someday...
    Like alligator shoes and real elephant ivory...  Wow.
    
    jc

    I don't suppose the plywood my future Alvarez will have will
    hit the extinct list in my lifetime...
    :)

    
      If your lucky..one of the layers will! When I was younger I some 70
    years ago..we made guitars out of a shoe box with a yard stick as a 
    neck..rubber bands as strings! Talk about great acoustic action..also
    if you got sick of playin' you could use the rubber bands to shoot
    paper clips at your fellow band members.
    
                           R.B.

    Martins...
    
    I've never played an acoustic guitar that compares in tonal quality
    to my J40MC. When I first got it, it was set up to be unplayable. 
    .13 E string and very high action. I almost had to use two hands 
    to press the strings down!! Since then, the nut and saddle have been 
    filed, and the string guage is at .12. It's still a little stiff but
    I've become use to that. My hands and forearms are in great
    shape now, and my chops are strong from playing this axe regularly.
    It plays even better with .11's on it, and really doesn't lose much 
    volume. A credit to the construction of the guitar!! The .11's just 
    wear out very fast so I've stuck with .12's. 
    
    Aside from the beauty of this instrument, it's evenness of tone and 
    tremendous power make it the best acoustic I've ever played. It cost
    me around $1300, but for a high quality acoustic instrument in todays
    market, I consider that fair. As far as being crazy to pay $2000 or
    over for a guitar, it depends on what you really want,can afford. 
    Look at the cost of professional quality saxes, high-end guitars are 
    almost equal in price.
    
    Phil

I have a new flyer from Lark Street Music in Ablany, NY that lists

"Martin D-40LE, New, Brazilian, #50 of 50 made, w/ Mark Leaf case
 (list $5598)......................................................$3850"

It's the most expensive Martin listed, and most of the listing is
for vintage Martins. Only a 1932 OM-28 that's "a little rough looking"
exceeds it at $5000

    RE: not paying more than $2000 for a guitar
    
    Actually, we guitarists have it pretty easy.   Outside of top of the
    line arch tops, there aren't too many new guitars that cost more than
    $2000, and certainly very few beyond $3000.   If you compare this to
    the kind of money violinists and other orchestral string players have
    to shell out for even a "decent" professional instrument, the guitar is
    a real bargain.
    
    I know someone who plays bass in the Detroit Symphony Orchestra.  His
    "cheap" bass that he uses for outdoor concerts is currently appraised
    at $60,000.  Makes $2000 for an upper-end Martin look pretty
    reasonable...
    
    Still, I can see the point.  I have a Takamine N-10 that I bought for
    about $300 (a great deal) that is a very nice guitar.  I played Martin
    D-18s (also mahogany sides and back) that sound better-- but a good buy
    on a new one would be about $900.  The Martin sounds better, but is it
    that much better?   I have a Hirade model 5 that is a *wonderful*
    instrument, and I was lucky enough to get it for $500 (it's a factory
    second).  I played a Ramirez the other day (one of the cheaper ones),
    and I feel my Hirade holds its own against it (I'm probably biased,
    however).
    
    I have a real hard time imagining spending more than $2000 on a solid
    body electric, however-- I'd have a real hard time in doing that (or
    even more than $1000).  Vintage Fenders are totally over priced in my
    opinion.  Sure they are nice instruments, but I've seen beat up mid
    50's telecasters going for excess of $3000...  This just seems totally
    outrageous for a couple of planks of wood that are joined together by a
    four screws. 
    
    But I guess it comes down to a combination of getting what you pay for
    and the laws of supply and demand.  I like my Takamine, but I yearn
    for more.  Sometime on down the line I plan on buying a Martin.  It
    probably won't be a $2000+ instrument, but I think there may be a D-28
    (or perhaps a 000-28 since I primarily fingerpick) in my future...
    
    	Jim
    

    I bet Takamine's have much better pickup systems.  Too bad you couldn't
    order them separately to put in a Taylor ;-)
    
    Mike

    
    While on the acoustic topic.. Has anyone ever played a Santa Cruz
    guitar. Mandolin Bros. is a dealer and therefore has several nice
    pictures of the Santa Cruz line. Prices vary, averaging somewhere
    in 1500-2200 dollar range (if memory serves me right). 
    
    They are very nice looking instruments, although I don't really 
    care for florentine (pointy?) cutaways on flat top acoustics. 
    
    Phil

I played a couple of Santa Cruz guitars at Mandolin Bros.  As I remember they
had the V-neck (somewhat of a triangle in cross-section, like vintage Martins)
that I don't like.  They are well made and sounded pretty good to me.  Some
people might choose these over the standard Martin models.  I think I would
go for an HD-28 and keep the extra $500 in my pocket.

Jim

When I was on the West Coast recently, I had the chance to play a couple of
Santa Cruz F-series guitars (very narrow rounded cutaway). One had
Brazilian rosewood back and sides (not rain forest rosewood) with a cedar top.
(The cost was something like 4K.) As much as I liked the feel of the guitar,
the sound couldn't match my dreadnought (custom-made), and I don't think I'm
quite ready to pay that much for a guitar. I also played a prototype guitar 
that Santa Cruz built in the early 80's. They built a couple of prototypes
when they were considering going into production for carved back guitars 
(they never did). This particular one was made of tiger maple with a
spruce flat top. It was a fun guitar to play. I particularly like the shape
of the F-series guitars, and its sound was sufficiently different to make me
wish I had the money (2.5K). I've played several other Santa Cruz guitars
(dreadnoughts; and a couple of guitars akin to the 00- or 000- Martin series);
the best one was a Tony Rice model with Brazilian back and sides - this
was a truly fine guitar. From what I understand, they plan on making some
arch top guitars (which I think will be even more expensive, maybe in the
5-6K range).

As far as why spend the money, I agree with earlier comments; you get what
sounds good to you, and what feels good when you play it, according to your
budget (also, guitars *are* inexpensive compared to many other instruments).
Generally speaking, the 2K+ guitars play better and sound better; more care
is taken with the choice of wood, and it shows. I still have a Martin that
I've owned for twenty years; but since I got the custom-made guitar, I never
play the Martin.

Kirk

As I understand it, the Tony Rice model is as close a copy as Santa Cruz could
come to the old D-28 that Tony got from Clarence White.  As many of you
probably know, this was a 30s-vintage D-28 (if it was a herringbone, I don't
remember), and Clarence had carved/gouged the soundhole out about another �" or
so to get more sound (interesting logic...).  I played a SC Tony Rice model a
while back, and while it doesn't seem to have the most resonant sound, it puts
out a very tight, focused, powerful sound, which is what a lot of bluegrass
players are looking for.  It's the same sound you'll hear Tony get pretty
consistently.

Charlie

The story I heard from Mike Longworth, the historian at Martin, was that the
Clarence White instrument is a very good example of a standard herringbone D-28 
model from the 1930s.  This instrument had suffered significant wear at the 
soundhole (I admit to not understanding about how this would happen) and the 
soundhole had been enlarged from the 4" to 4 1/4" for cosmetic purposes.  All 
of the Tony Rice Models have this larger soundhole.

Jim

    Re: the Martin question... I've played acoustic for 25+ years. I got
    ahold of my first quality steel-string guitar, a 1965 Epiphone (Gibson)
    Cortez in 1972 from a banjo picking friend (anyone know Paul Silvius -
    used to play with Joe Val & the New England Bluegrass Boys) for @ $100!
    It's standard vs. dreadnaught sized, with a real thin, fast neck, but
    lacks power and variability. So, around 1978-79, I started hunting for
    something better. I bought an Ovation acoustic/electric Legend. I agree
    with the general consensus on Ovations. Beautiful necks, easy to play,
    but the tone is very brittle, not what acoustic players really love. It
    sounded great amplified, but just never gave any satisfying mellow in
    the tone. I traded "down" to an Ovation Balladeer around '80. It was
    more mellow, but still very bitey. I think that turtle-shell back just
    reflects to much sound, it doesn't warm it up at all. And, yes, if you
    play an Ovation sitting down, it does tend to slip alot. Aslo, the
    center of gravity is lopsided toward the neck, so you always have to
    kind of prop it up. If you play an Ovation standing, these 2 problems
    mostly go away.
    
    I gave up on Ovation @ '81, after trying an Adamas (@$2K) vs. a Martin
    D-28. If you tend toward folk, country, acoustic pop, etc... you'll
    want a "traditional" vs. roundback instrument. Though I had alway shied
    away from Martins due to stiff actions, fat necks, etc... I found a '79
    D-28 at Daddy's in Manchester NH that just blew me away. The sound was
    unbelievable. I had them set it up lower, so the actions was tolerable.
    I've had it now for 12 years. The sound has improved with age, and I've
    gotten very used to the way it plays tough. It's got a slight crack in
    the finger board way up toward the soundhole that widens in our N.E.
    winter and narrows in our humid summer! I paid about $800 for it back
    then, new with a nice hardshell coffin, and don't ever intend to sell
    it (or my '65 Epiphone). 
    
    I would like to add to my collection, though. I've also noticed a lot
    of folks playing Takamine lately. Must be hot. Also, Taylor, Guild,
    Washburn, and some custom hand-builts. When I have the bucks to blow,
    I'll start doing some serious looking. Until then, why torture myself,
    when I've got a great Martin (with rainforest rosewood)?? FYI, I plug
    my Martin in with a Lawrence soundhole snap-in pickup that works fine.

    I just played a Tony Rice model SCGClast week (gryphon music in palo
    alto) as well as a Martin D45.  IMHO neither of them sounded as good as
    my Martin OM-28.  Of course, I play finger style and these are meant to
    be flat picked so that may be the reason.  As far as Brazilian rose
    wood goes, I alway believed that you were better off spending your
    money on a high grade top than the back and side materials.  I've got
    the OM-28 and a 12 string both with Englemann tops and they sound (to my
    ear) considerably better than any brazilian rosewood guitar with a
    sitka top. I've also heard opinions to the effect that at this time, a
    top quality Indian rosewood is better than the best available Brasilian
    (though not nearly as good as the 'older' Brasilian). jt

Tops are far more important that back/sides in producing sound.  Several people 
at Martin say that they have found no consistent difference between Indian and 
Brazilian rosewood.  I suspect the quality of the top depends more on the grain
and evenness of density than on whether it is Sitka or Englemann.  My guitar has
an Englemann top on a Brazilian D body and it sounds good to me.  As for your
preferences, if you are a fingerpicker then most people would expect you to 
prefer an OM model over a D model.  I play both and prefer the D.

Jim

    The difference I *think* I can hear between sitka and englemann is most
    apparent on the upper frets, say from the 7th fret up. I agree that
    good grain, density etc is most important but, all things being equal,
    there is a certain sound that I hear on the englemann tops that I've
    never heard matched by the sitka tops I've played. I can't really
    describe it but I can consistently identify it.  When I pick out an
    instrument, I usually subject them to a 'blindfold' comparison with
    someone else playing them. I *always* wind up choosing this type of
    top from a raw sound standpoint (playability being another issue
    entirely).
               
    My 12 string is a jumbo maple and I like flat picking it better than 
    flat picking the OM (although I do fingerpick it as well).  I was 
    mostly comparing the sound of a D when flat picked to the sound of an OM 
    when fingerpicked.
    
    I think you probably hit it on the head when you mentioned consistency.
    There is soooo much variability in sound/wood between two 'identical'
    instruments that it makes it hard to draw generalizations.  Thats what
    makes shopping for an acoustic so much fun. And then there is the issue
    of strings.......  jt
    

    Re:         <<< Note 2123.57 by CIM2NI::TOTH >>>
    
    I'm with you on the Englemann vs. Sitka.  I was kinda repulsed by the
    almost-white top (looks sickly in contrast to properly-aged Martin
    tops) but it does sound much better IMHO.  I think the difference, as I
    hear it, is RESONANCE.  For example, if you fret the D string on, as
    you mentioned, the 7th fret, producing an A, you'll get a LOT of help
    from the A fifth string; so much so that sometimes you have to damp the
    5th string as well just so it won't be hanging out there against the
    wrong chord.  That kind of resonance was the first thing I noticed, and
    I've played/listened to several other HD-28s with Sitka tops, and they
    just don't resonate as much.  To my thinking, that's also the kind of
    resonance you hear only in Martins, again in MHO...
    
    For some reason I think that you pay for that resonance with a little
    less focused sound; I've played a Santa Cruz Tony Rice model, and it
    didn't have nearly the resonance - the "prettiness" - that the HD-28
    has, but it had a more focused sound which should cut through a
    bluegrass band much better.  You know, if you listen to Tony Rice, he
    really has a "hard" sound; he uses (real) tortoise-shell picks and
    plays back close to the saddle a lot.
    
    Come to think of it, I've had so many compliments on the white top that
    I've come to think it's kind of pretty myself (of course, now it's
    starting to age...)
    
    Charlie

    From the UK.....
    
    I bought an HD-28 in '89 and go green when I hear of the sorts of
    discounts you can get in the US.
    
    I payed a lot for my guitar and have no doubt that it is a superb
    instrument, with tone and volume which may be equalled by something
    else but why should I care. I've got it in my hands.
    
    As far as I am concerned, there is nowhere else to go. I've dreamed of
    owning a Martin for 30 years. I'm not a pro player - just someone who
    has indulged himself now the kids have moved on :-)
    
    It can only get better the more it is played and the older it gets but
    don't come to me with offers. It has become an instant heirloom. Just
    hope the kids don't fight over it when I'm gone, and scratch the finish
    ;-)
    
    andy 

    I played an ENCORE last night for about 30 mins.
    Very similar to an OVATION . Sound was fantistic thru VOX 100
    Acoustically it left a lot to be desired. However, to me it was good.
    Made in korea, 5 band EQ, and light, really light though of a solid
    feel. maybe if it had a sound-hole under the strings(where it usually
    is on an acoustic --its *small* sound-holes were on the upper and 
    lower horns.
    Plain bridge i.e. no adjusters but the volume outa those p/ups was
    outa this world.
    I suppose its an OVATION copy from some one or other but as its only 
    just been imported from the UK (first batch) the price is reasonable
    250 IRpounds9 = about 400-425$ w/case
    
    Anybody in the UK know anything about these. I'd apprieciate any info.
    
    
    
    KEVIN
    

re: Note 1353.154 (Brian Rost)

>    I've seen a lot of pretty inexpensive acoustic/electrics lately, what's
>    the deal with these?  They look pretty fancy for the price, and since
>    you can't get something for nothing...

>    Do they have solid tops?  What the heck do they sound like?  Maybe I'm
>    an old curmudgeon, but the name Charvel (or Kramer, or Peavey, etc.)
>    doesn't inspire confidence when buying a flattop...

I'm might be in the market for a cheaper acoustic/electric guitar (so I 
don't have to tote around my $800 Ovation to gigs and subject it to the
hazards of the road every weekend). Like Brian, I've also noticed a whole
bunch of these new companies offerring what appear to be really nice 
acoustics at very good prices. 

Has anyone done any real comparison shopping lately, and be willing to give
any recommendations? I guess I'm looking in the $200-$250 range, to give you
an idea. 

BTW, speaking of these companies, there is yet *another* one, but I can't
remember their name. It's owned by Kaman (owners of Ovation and Takamine),
and appear to be Takamine clones for around $200-$250. Something else I 
have to check out.....

alan

    I am waiting for my local music shop to receive in a Vantage...
    
    It is a maple 6 string, slim and cutaway body, acoustic/elec.
    with a builtin eq + vol control (uses a 9 volt battery inside the
    body).
    
    They had the 12 string version which I played and really enjoyed
    the looks, the action, and the overall feel of the guitar.
    
    List is in the $400 something range, he is selling for $299.
    
    Shop is Barnstorm Music in Milford MA, (508) 473-9802, ask for
    Ted and you can mention I referred them.  I like sending them
    business as these guys take real good care of their customers...
    
    Regards, Mark Clement...
    
    
    body

    
    Picked up a cheapo Applause at Kurlan Music...it'll make a GREAT
    'around the camp' guitar...way better than that ridiculous Martin
    Backapacker thing.
    
    Nice and light, o.k. tone, no electronics...a bungee cord around
    the pack and I'm good to go.
    
    Kev --