Conference napalm::guitar

    Gregg,

    I recently played a custom acoustic by Colorado Springs luthier Duane
    Waterman and was quite impressed.  It was not an inexpensive guitar
    (like $2200) but it was wonderfully well balanced and responsive. 
    Fellow noter Will Collum is having an acoustic built by him as we
    speak.  

    Seems to me that if you have the guitar made for you, you can get it
    exactly the way you want it, scale length, fretboard width, fret size,
    neck profile, body size/shape.  If you buy one off the shelf, you take
    what you get and that might mean some compromises.  You'll generally
    pay more for a custom built guitar too, if price is a consideration.

    I've never really looked around for good acoustic guitars in this area,
    so I can't be very helpful for you there.  However, I do almost all my
    business with Rice Music on 8th Street here in Co. Springs and have
    been very pleased with the service I've received there.  Perhaps Walter
    Chase there could recommend someone in this area that carries acoustics
    of the caliber that you're talking about.  He's referred me to other
    dealers before when he didn't have what I needed (once even when he had
    a competing product that he personally felt was inferior).

    Greg

	Play some of thier finished products and try to compare them
	to a Martin (if possible). Keep in mind that a newly assembled
	guitars tone won't be as warm as one that has had a chance to
	age.

	If you are not planning on reselling the guitar, then the name
	on the end of the headstock is not important, as long as you
	have what you want.

	What are the reasons that you might want to choose a custom
	built instrument versus a production model?? 

							Jens

<<< Note 1963.3 by BSS::COLLUM "Oscar's only ostrich oiled an orange owl today" >>>
                           -< go Custom is you can >-

    If you've got the money for a custom built instrument built by the
    right guy (and Duane Waterman is the right guy, for sure) I wouldn't
    bother going to look at Martin's or Taylor's.  I didn't as a matter of
    fact, I had played them a long time ago.
    
    Duane will build EXACTLY what you want.  And his instruments regularly
    go for more than the original cost; they don't lose value, they gain
    it.
    
    I'm sure it's the same with other top builders, he's just the only one
    I know.  I've never played anything quite like his stuff.  Classical or
    steel string.  His specialty is classicals, but he builds the nicest
    sounding/playing steelstrings I've ever come across.
    
    Call him at his shop, tell him I sent you.  His number is 719-473-8444.
    
    You won't be sorry,
    
    Will (the guy Greg mentioned a note or two back)

    

I will be getting a limited edition Martin (see 74.87) delivered in a couple of 
months so I clearly have some bias.  As for custom guitars, their advantage is 
also potentially their biggest risk. I have seen a lot of unusual custom guitars
out there that obviously didn't come out like the buyer planned.  This is 
probably the biggest downside to custom guitars - you pay your money and wait
to see what comes out.  Martin makes a wide range of instruments.  If one of
their standard lines fits what you want, you can then play a particular 
instrument and decide if "it" is the one.  These instruments also tend to be
cheaper to buy and easier to resell.  It is pretty easy to get 40% off list for
stndard and customized Martins - so before you go with a private luthier, you 
may want to price a similar or same instrument from the Martin custom shop.

If you have not played any new Martins in a while, you might be surprised in 
some of the instruments they have been making in the last 10-15 years with low
profile necks and scalloped bracing.  Some of the new guitars are using many of
the same specs as the vintage pre-war Martins.  An HD-28 for $1295 delivered 
complete to your door has to be one of the standards for comparison.

Jim

    I agree that custom isn't for everybody.  And custom intruments not
    coming out just right is a risk.
    
    As for my situation, when my guitar is done, if I don't like it, Duane
    will give me back what I paid for it.  No problem.  So, at least with
    him, there's no risk that way, I'm quite comfortable with him and the
    situation.  I would have lost time, however, but in my situation,
    that's not a real concern.
    
    I've gotten lucky other ways dealing with Duane, i.e. the builder
    directly.  For example, he bent a set of Brazilian sides for another
    customer, and the guy didn't like the exact shape that came out.  It
    turned out that that man's guitar would have been very close in design
    to mine.  Duane offered me the Brazilian sides and back at no extra
    charge (I had ordered Indian because it's cheaper) and threw in an
    Engleman Spruce top (mine would have been Cedar) hand picked from, you
    guessed it, Martin's best stock.  So I got a few hundred $$$'s worth of
    extras for nothing from being in the right place at the right time and
    being on good terms with Duane.  I get the feeling that things like
    that happen occaisionally with a custom builder that can't really
    happen with a factory.
    
    Will

>    I agree that custom isn't for everybody.  And custom intruments not
>    coming out just right is a risk.
 
     The biggest advantage is that you can have things the way you like them.
     In my case, I demand that all of my guitars have the same scale
     length as well as have the same type of frets. This is something that
     you might wait a year for (or never because they don't want to
     make them that way). It's nice to know that the result is your's,
     as you feel you need it to be.

								Jens 

    
    Hi Jens,
    	
    	Some of the reasons I would consider a custom made guitar are.
    
    (1) Made to fit my size, although I am partial to the size of the
        Martin's dreadnaught either the d-28, HD-28.
    
    (2) Have the appearence that I would like my next guitar to have.  Not
        alot of inlay work I have heard that takes away from the sound.
    
    (3) It would be one of a kind and I would probably never sell it.  I
        don't even plan to sell the guitar I have now.  Even though it is
        not much it is the first guitar I owned.
    
    	I'm starting to shop around now though I will not be in a position
    to buy till after first of year.  Thanks for the advice...
    
    Gregg

    
    .5>
    	Hi Jim,
    
    	I have several friends here in town that have Martins, I really like
    the sound and the feel of the action of their guitars.  Jim, you
    mentioned you are having a custom Martin made for you. What did you do
    to get info on having this done?  Possible phone #'s and what part of
    the country. 
    
    	Thanks for the reply Jim..
    
    					Gregg

Gregg,

This is a somewhat long story.  I decided that I could do better than the '72
D-28 that I had had for 18 years, do I started looking and playing.  Having
been generally satisfied with my D-28, I hadn't kept up with what Martin had
been doing with herringbone trim, return to scalloped bracing and acceptance
of custom orders.  I found that I liked the new guitars better from both the
sound (scalloped bracing I think was the major difference here) and appearance
(herringbone trim on the HD-28 and the custom options).  I made a mini 
pilgrimage down to Mandolin Borthers in NYC to play old Martins, Taylors, new
Martins, Santa Cruz guitars, and some Martin customs that they had had made up
to imitate the 1930's D-28 and D-45.  Stan Jay, the owner of Mandolin Brothers,
has to be one of the most knowledgeable dealers in knowing what can be ordered
from the Martin custom shop (not all of the options are listed on their 
literature - such as long bridge saddles, grained ivoriod bindings and
pcikguards under the finish).  I liked the sound of a limited edition D-41BLE
that he had, but didn't like the large hexagons on the fretboard.  After talking
with Stan for a half an hour we came up with specifications for a custom 
instrument that he sent into Martin for a quote.  I wanted a lot of pricy
options like Brazilian rosewood, snowflake fingerboard inlays, etc. so the 
price came back pretty high even with his discount.  

In the meantime, I had done some more studying about the custom shop and about 
the limited edition "guitar of the month" program that Martin has been running 
for the last seven years.  In this program, they make limited edition guitars 
that are special interest instruments or recreations of past vintage 
instruments.  Examples run from D-18's made with herringbone trim or made out of
quilted mahogony to recreations of old pre-war D-28's with the underside of the 
top signed by all the foremen in the shop (the so-called signature series) to 
a limited edition D-45 with twice the amount of pearl inlay (around the neck
bindings, heelcap, headstock, ect.).  I had some reluctance to ordering a 
Martin custom due to the problems that come with having a non-standard 
instrument and in part due to the extra cost that Martin charges for doing a 
one-of-a-kind instrument.  I decided I would wait until May and see what the
fall "guitars of the month" for the fall would be.  When one of these new 
limited edition models turned out to be very close to what I wanted I looked
into getting one of these (a D-40BLE) instead of a custom instrument.  This
approach had the advantages of getting a standard instrument (although 50 of 
them will only even be made, so I do get some level of uniqueness), I got some
features that were somewhat beyond what I was willing to pay for out of my 
pocket as a custom feature (things like a Mark Leaf case and engraved tuning
machines) and all of this was cheaper than the quote I had on my custom
instrument.

So now to answer your questions.  Many dealers can give you the literature from
Martin on what can be ordered, some like Stan Jay order these instruments 
regularly and can provide much more help.  However, the fountain head of 
knowledge in this area has to be Lester Wagner, head of the custom shop at 
Martin.  Les can be reached toll free at 1-800-345-3103.  Les is very willing
to talk to anyone about what they can or will do in making custom Martins.  See 
notes 74.89 and 74.90 for some of the big dealers, their addresses and what 
discounts they offered me on my D-40BLE.  I recommend that you not take these
discounts as their standard as a D-40BLE was considered a special case for most
of these dealers.  Some of the smaller dealers were much more willing to 
negotiate on price than the larger dealers.

As for ordering a custom Martin, you must order these through an authorized
Martin dealer.  Once you know what it is you want, you can shop for the lowest
price/highest discount from one of the dealers.  I suspect that you should be 
able to get a 40% discount from at least one of the dealers.  Most of these
dealers will ship to out of state addresses allowing you to avoid paying sales
taxes.  I think if you are going to order a guitar, the particular dealer 
doesn't matter quite so much.  I think the dealer matters much more if you want
to go and play an instrument before you buy it.

I know this is more information than you asked for.  I hope it helps.

Jim (expecting the new Martin in about 6 weeks)

    Sound nice!  I didn't know Martin was doing custom stuff like that.
    
    Sounds like the Martin and a glass of '86 Mouton will go to gether
    nicely at the turn of the century!   :^)
    
    Will (who got ahold of you after you got rid of you extra last year :^( )
    
                                                                            

Yes ... I can get into the thought of doing a couple of bottles of '86 Mouton
and playing a few tunes 12/31/99 ... doesn't sound like a bad way to spend an
evening.  many :-)

Jim

    This is an interesting note - one of my favorite subjects is acoustic
    guitars, including customs.  In the past, say before 1980, Martin had
    not responded to customer needs and desires.  They felt that they built
    the best acoustics in the world so you had to take what they made. 
    Their Custom Shop now builds nearly anything you want.  Previous notes
    have lined it all out.  I have owned quite a few Martins over the years
    and presently have a 1970 D-28 (my stand by).  I also own a 1985 OM-45
    Custom (very non-standard) and a 1989 Taylor Custom.
    
    In this day and age of "anything the customer wants" all the makers,
    from Denny Stevens to CF Martin can meet your needs.  All it takes is a
    little bit of patience, some time and money.  There is, from my point
    of view, only a couple of differences any more.  Martins will probably
    be more valuable in the future than custom instruments.  One has only
    to look at the prices of "vintage" instruments over the last 20 years. 
    This is an advantage of Martin over most other builders. (I still love
    my Taylor!)  There are some custom builders who can provide things
    Martin can't or won't.  If your tastes run to the unusual or radical, a
    builder like Steve Klein can turn your head around.
    
    All in all, it's fun.  Gregg, if your interested I am in the Denver
    Sales Support group.  I have also known Stan Jay, the owner of the
    Mandolin Bros, for nearly 25 years.  I lived in NYC from 1963-73 and we
    lived near one another before he started the Bros.  If you'd like to
    talk about this - and maybe try out a couple of my instruments, let me
    know.  I also have a couple of friends here in town with Denny Stevens
    guitars that you might like to test drive.  Let me know if I can help.
    
    Paul -  D-553-3237
    

I heard today that my D-40BLE is in at the dealer.  I expect to take
delivery sometime aound the end of next week.  If anyone in ZKO would be 
interested in seeing this guitar, let me know and I'll bring it in someday 
the week after next.  Wildwood Music says it is an eye-popper and sounds as
good or better than it looks.

Jim

    Yahoo, get the corkscrew!
    
    Will ;^) x 1000

    
    Does anybody know where I might find a place that carries a big
    selection of guitar bodies in the Mass. area.
    
                                                   Mark.
    

    
    For electric or accoutic?  Got my solid body from StuMac catalog.  Took
    about 5 to 7 daze for delivery.
    
    J.

    ...but you could hardly say that Stewart-McDonalds has a "large
    selection" of different bodies.  Like three...
    
    Greg

    
    Well, OK.  They offer traditional strat style, "Jackson style", 
    and tele style.  They offer 2 or 3 different types of woods including
    Ash, maple and curly maple.
    
    I was/am pretty happy with the results and their service...
    
    J.

    
    Solid body is what i'm looking for. I found a couple of stores listed
    in GIUTAR PLAYER mag. I think i'm going to send for thier catalogs.
    
    I'm tring to build another guitar so I can give my RG550 a major
    overhaul, I have a double neck but it kills my shoulder using it
    through a whole set.
    
    I wanted to see if there was a place close by to get one ASAP.
    
                              Thanks for the replies guys,
                                                              mArK.

    I'm toying with this debate now as I search for replacements.  I have
    my eye on a particular custom model but am concerned about resale
    value (never know with GTS so you have to plan ahead ;-)).  I'm looking 
    for a high-end 6-string acoustic with a cutaway and built-in electronics.  
    I know Taylor has a model like this.  Anyone know if Martin's custom shop 
    could do something like this?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

I think the Martin custom shop could do this.  You want fancy?  They can do it.

Jim

    ...But get ready to pay thru the nose...  I've been wanting a nice
    acoustic...  Things ain't cheap, I'll tell you that!
    
    I wanna Laravie custom...

    I really want an Olson, made by James Olson in Minnesota.  Like I said
    though, people change and not many people have heard of Olsons, but
    everyone knows Martin.
    
    Mike

    Just my opinion, of course, but if you're concerned with resale, then
    you'd consider selling it...In that case, buy a Takamine for $800 and
    be done with it.
    
    I'd think the only times you'd want something like a Martin would be:
    
    1)  You're a rabid Martin fan/collector
    2)  You're a pro
    3)  You plan on bringing it to the grave with you.
    
    My next acoustic (I've got three now) will fill #3 - And it'll be a 
    Laravie or something equally tres-bitchin.  :-)  
    
    I bought a custom Ibanez cuz I expect to own it forever - I don't care
    what the resale is...  It's MINE.  :-)

    
    Martin's hold their value...!
    
    
    						Ian

    why don't you check out Martins home page,, 
    
    			http://www.mguitar.com/index/html
    
    They have a couple of guitars with cutaway and their price list is
    there too.
    
    You can never have enough Martins,,,  I am saving for my seventh!
    
    Bruce
    

    
    7 Martins?
    
    bloody hell....I was talking with my wife about a 2nd electric and she
    like the idea so 7 Martins would be a divorce case.
    
    						Ian

Mike,
    
I guess it depends what you want it for,as coop has some good points. I looked
at Taylors 510,710,910. They seemed like really nice well made instruments,
however I've been told by a couple of people that the resale of a Martin
is always going to be higher than a Taylor. If your looking at Taylors
then your looking at spending 1k to 2k,you can easily pick up a used Martin
for the kind of money. I played a 90's D28c a couple of weeks ago with an 
asking price of $1.6k,and this instrument looked unplayed and new and as
always prices are negotiatable. Actually I'd let your ear make the decision,
if the pocketbook permits. To me a Tak would only be a temporary solution.



							Rick

 

    Anyone tried the Carvin acoustic?  Some have given rave reviews, but it
    seems to be a small guitar and would probably not sound good without
    the amplification.   Hard to tell, though....  Some really nice sounds
    come from strange looking instruments.
    /=\
    

    I saw that guit and felt the same way - it COULDN'T give a decent
    acoustic sound, could it??  I mean it's like the Ferringtons and
    such...  Skinny, electric-looking neck, hmmm...

    But then the neck *would* play nice, not like most acoustics which feel
    like a 2x4 with the corners rounded off....
    /-\
    

    In addition to Martin and Taylor, there are a lot of smaller shops
    turning out great instruments.  Larivee, Santa Cruz Guitar Company,
    Collings, Bourgoies (sp?), etc. make some great instruments.
    
    Also, if you want a Martin, you don't need to go to the custom shop 
    for a guitar with electronics and a cut away-- the M-38C covers the 
    cutaway, and electronics are available as an option on all models.  
    The M-38C is a distinctive looking guitar, too-- with an abalone ring 
    in the rosette, an oval soundhole.  The M-size body is slightly wider 
    than a dreadnought, but not as deep, and has a narrower waist.  This 
    gives the guitar nice balance between bass and treble.  If your
    interested in an Olson (all of the Olsons I've seen are grand concert
    style instruments), you might find the M-38 very interesting.  A
    little smaller option is the 000-16C-- a grand concert sized Martin
    with mahogany sides and back and a cutaway.  With electronics, you
    could probably get an 000-16C from Elderly instruments for under $1,400.
    
    If you want extra fancy, though, go to the Martin custom shop, but be
    prepared for a long wait (12-18 months, last I checked), and a big
    price tag (still not unreasonable, compared to Collings or SCGC).
    
    Olson seem to be highly regarded.  In addition to Phil Keaggy, James
    Taylor and David Wilcox play Olsons.  I wouldn't worry too much about
    their resale $, although a Martin (or Taylor) would be easier to sell.
    
    As far as Takamine... If you want an acoustic-electric guitar with
    a durable finish for stage use, Taks are great.  If you want an
    acoustic guitar to enjoy and savor as an acoustic instrument, I'd 
    look elsewhere.  
    
    As far as the Carvin-- it is more an electric/acoustic, than an
    acoustic/electric.  I can't imagine it has much of an acoustic
    personality at all.
    
    And the earlier noter was right-- you can't have too many Martins.
    I've only got three, though.
    
    Jim 

    Thanks for the info Jim!  
    
    btw - the Olsons that Keaggy plays appear to be smaller in size than a
    grand concert size.
    
    Mike

    Re: .33
    
    There is no MC-38 picture on the Martin WWW site, but they show the M-38
    and the MC-28.  The MC-28 goes up to 22 frets.  The MC-28 lists for
    $2,810 and the M-38 lists for $3,150.
    
    I think I may be able to get an Olson for less than this - maybe even
    with the special inlays I had in mind.  The last I talked to James (2
    years ago), the 6-string model that Keaggy uses with cutaway,
    electronics, and custom inlays was $1,800.
    
    btw - I was watching Keaggy's acoustic instructional video this weekend
    just to check out his Olsons in more detail again.  He said something that
    really stuck out while discussing his Olson guitars.  He basicall said
    that he had been playing acoustic guitar for over 20 years and it was
    his favorite instrument to play and has tried several brands.  Then he 
    said, "These guitars by James Olson are the finest acoustic guitars I've 
    ever had the pleasure to play."
    
    Mike

An MC-28 list of $2810 would sell for about $1700.

The lifetime Martin warranty is worth something if you 
plan on keeping this guitar for a long time.

An alternative is to look for used guitars.  $1500 will 
buy you a good used guitar!

Jim

    re: M-38 and MC-28
    
    Sorry, I got a little confused there.  I thought the cutaway model in
    the M-series was a cutaway M-38.  Instead, it is the MC-28.   Except
    for the abalone rosette, my comments should hold.
    
    Also, as you noticed, I put the "C" in the wrong place.  For some
    reason, Martin is a bit flakey here: sometimes the C goes after
    the body/size identifier (e.g., MC-28), and sometimes it goes after
    the style number (e.g. 000-16C).
    
    Other non-custom Martin guitars with a cutaway include the MC-68 (an
    M-sized guitar with maple sides and back) and the JC-40 (the J series
    is the same shape as the M-series, but with additional depth).
    
    The Olson at under $2K sounds like a great deal.  FWIW, most "boutique" 
    luthiers have raised their prices at a rate higher than inflation over
    the past two years...
    
    Other guitars to check out (that I didn't mention in .33) include 
    Breedlove and Lowden.  Breedlove was founded by an ex-Taylor employee.
    Breedloves feature somewhat radical styling.   Lowden is a UK luthier
    running a small shop, and he seems to be developing quite a following
    (including Richard Thompson & the guitarists in Acoustic Alchemy).
    
    
    Jim