Conference napalm::guitar

    Just list the serial number here, and I will look it up for you
    tonight.
    
    I have heard that some people tune 12 string guitars 1 whole step
    below A440 pitch, but they usually capo it at the second fret.
    This results in reduced tension on the neck and bridge. If you 
    decide to try this, get yourself a "Shubb" capo. They have one
    that is designed for the flat/wide neck of a 12 string guitar.
    These are available through Stewart MacDonald, and many other
    mail order catalogs.
    
    Mark

re: Detuning.

The reason people started detuning 12 strings was cuz the bridge plate
or the entire top at the back end of the body, and in some cases, the 
heal of the neck would actually come apart from  the tension.

You could EXPECT this to happen on a cheaper 12 string, however, some
of the high end Martins would NEVER do it (Or so was the claim, then again,
I know of a Martin 12 that is at least 15 years old, always tuned to concert
pitch, and it's fine...  I believe some of the Guilds are of the same calibre
or close to it, of some of the Martins I'm referring to. 

(I'm not sure about the model numbers of the M,arins and the Guilds
mentioned in the base note..)

If it really is an older (70s) 12 string, check the top, behind the bridge,
and right back to the binding where the top meets the side.  

If it looks like it's rippled, or if the bridge plate looks like it's
begining to pull up from the top, or the binding is showing signs
of stress, then you will eventually have some big problems with that guitar.

and from some previous experinces in working with guitar 
repairs, these are not easily fixed, fixable yes, but a constant PIA...

(now I'm not saying it's gonna happen, so don't get too nervous, just keep
checking it.)

Then check the heal of the neck where it attaches to the side of the body..
That's another general troubled spot.

Of course, always detune if you're storing or know your not goiong to
be playing it for awhile..

    Thanks for the advice.
    
    The guitar is an FT212-NT and the serial number is 164607.
    
    I appreciate the offer to look it up.
    
    regards
    
    andy

    My 12-string did exactly what was descibed in .1 -- The bridge plate
    has pulled away from the face of the guitar. I always had it tuned to
    440. I never realized that this would be a problem (until now !!!).
    I've had this guitar for about 14 years without any problem. However,
    I had it in the trunk of my car when I drove to Key West, FL early
    this spring. It went from 15 degrees in my trunk when I left to sitting
    in the my trunk during the entire first day in the Keys (BIG MISTAKE!!)
    When I pulled it out that night, I noticed that the action was
    seriously #@*!ed-up (but then again, so was I ;^) ... The next day
    I discovered that the bridge plate was pulled away from the face and
    that the face was warped from this strain. I have been contemplating
    a Pete Townsend-like guitar trashing, but I just can't bring myself
    to destroying a guitar that has brought me (and hopefully others) so
    much enjoyment over the years (maybe a raffle, with the winner getting
    the bashing rights ... <heavy sigh>
    
    /Bill

    The comments here sent me rushing home to check the level of the top,
    round the bridge, underneath and everywhere.
    
    Happy to report all looks A OK  
    
    
    andy

    According to the book "American Guitars" by Tom Wheeler, your Guild
    (sn 164607) was manufactured in 1977. 
    
    I hope 13 is a lucky number for you !
    
    Mark

    Thanks for the info on the date.
    
    I have that book - but did not realise the Guild serial numbers are in
    it.
    
    I too will consult it when I get home tonight.
    
    
    andy 

<<My 12-string did exactly what was descibed in .1 -- The bridge plate
<<has pulled away from the face of the guitar.

That was most likely my note (.2) as note .1 dind't really get into
that detail..

<<I have been contemplating a Pete Townsend-like guitar trashing, but I just 
<<can't bring myself to destroying a guitar that has brought me (and hopefully
<<others) so much enjoyment over the years


Well, I wouldn't consider that as an option just yet.

Depending on the worth and age of the instrument, for example, if this
were an ovation Legend 12 string, or Martin or Guild 12, I wouldn't
trash it...  You can probably take it to a good luthier, and get it fixed.

What we used to do, (back when I did this stuff as a part time job with a
local store..) was to remove the bridge, and work on both surfaces, removing
all traces of old glue, and varnish, reinforce the top, and reglue the
bridge back on.  We usually had to do some cosmetic work on the area,
and there was always a noticable effect left by the work..  the whole
job usually took about a week or so once we got started given time to clamp
things togehter and dry the glue, (I think we let that happen for two or
three days...) then touch up what ever finish work needed to be done. 

The bridges (to the best of my knowledge) didn't pull apart again.  The hassel
would start if one were trying to sell the guitar, and the perspective buyer 
got nervous about the touchup work we did.  

Basically, if it's a quality instrument, and you don't feel you can
replace it with another quitar of equal or better quality on your budget,
call around your area and find some repair guy that's up to the task.

My sons 3/4 scale acoustic got trahsed one night by one of my nephews. It was
a mess.. The bridge got pulled up and the headstock cracked/broken
in three places.

I got my old clamps out, some good glue, wood stripper, and went to work
on it.  Believe it or not, it's fine today, and you really wouldn't
know it was trashed.

Moral of the story, if it's made with wood, it's usually fixable.

    I had a Guild F512R for awhile.  Guild claims that you can tune to
    concert if you use a light guage string set.  A lot of the older 12
    strings where not braced as well as the Guilds and would never take the
    tension.  Consider that they were also built before the lighter guage
    string sets were available.  And, some people, like Pete Seeger for
    instance, like the sound they get from the heaver strings at lower
    tension.  There is a real rumble from that set up that defines the
    sound of a 12 string for many players.  I loved the sound of the Guild
    F512R - very BIG, deep and really LOUD.  But the neck was a real bear. 
    I sold it 6 years ago.  I owned a 1967 Martin D-12-20 that was lighter
    and easier to play with a very nice sound.  The 12 strings that impress
    me today are from Taylor.  The seem to combine the sound of the Guild
    with better playability.  If I get flush one day I might spring for
    one.
    
    Paul