Conference napalm::guitar

sounds like the classic tension/balance problem.

What has most likely happened here is that the new strings you
put on are a lighter (or maybe a heavier) gauge then what the
tremelo was intonated for.  (most likely lighter...)


My advice would be to bring it somewhere that can adjust it since you
have just gotten into this stretch, you've really no idea of how
to pursue to make the adjustments you'll need.  (I've been there for 6 years,
and I'd still probably screw it up!!)

Suffice to say, you're guitar will tune up, eventually,,, problem is the
temelo will be out of kilter and  most likely unusable.

Once you get your tension/balance set, use the same gauge strings
from there on out.  Once you change to a different gauge, you're gonna
be back at this juncture.

Now, the other piece of advice is changing/tuning.  

When chaning, it's probably best to change one and only one string
at a time with a tremelo, (especially a Rose, or a kahler)  That way there,
you never really loose your balance point.

Then when tuning, try not to tune straight up or down, rather jump
around.. Tune the low E, jump to the High E, then the B, 
do the A, then the G, the D, so on till all you're doing
is making minute adjustments.  Kinda like the tire changing theory, 
hit the opposite lug to ensure the tire sits flat on the hub..  same
theory, on instead of the tire, your looking for uniform tension.

Tuning the E, then the A, then the D, the g, b,e, once you get
to the B, the tenstion of the strings tuned to pitch pulls the bridge up, 
thus flattening the first strings.. got it ??

    Actually, it sounds like you installed heavier strings than you had
    on it before.  You can run a Strat with 3 springs (which most people
    do) or 5. It sounds like your running 3 springs, and using heavy
    gauge strings (like .011 or higher for the E string). 
    
    If you insist on using heavy strings, you probably ought to install
    2 more springs in the tremelo. Once you do this, you will need to
    adjust the string height and intonation (string length). This is
    done by a process of elimination. You set the string to the correct
    pitch by tuning using the tuners on the headstock. Then you set the
    height to the desired setting. If you lower the height, the string
    will become much flatter. If you raise the height the string will
    become much sharper. You will probably have to loosen the string
    tension to raise the height. Once you set the height and retune the
    sting to the correct pitch, you need to check the intonation. This 
    is done by comparing the fretted 12th fret note to the 12th fret
    harmonic. This is much easier to get right with an electronic tuner.
    
    If the fretted note is sharper than the harmonic, the string length
    needs to be increased (I think). Try increasing it slightly, and
    compare the fretted/harmonic notes again, to make sure you are moving
    in the correct direction. 
    
    You will probably find that you have to keep adjusting the pitch/height
    and length several times to get each string set right. This becomes 
    easier once you get the knack of it. From then on, you will be able
    to change strings without having to repeat this process, as long as you
    use all the same gauge strings. It's a good idea to verify that the
    intonation is right and tweak it if need be.
    
    If you think this is tough, try setting it on a Telecaster with only
    3 intonation adjustments. You end up having to make tradeoffs to get
    each pair as close as possible. 
    
    There are better notes in here on setups. If you don't feel comfident,
    bring it to a luthier and get done. 
    
    	Mark

    
    Thanks for the info. The strings I put on are the same guage (and type)
    as it had before - ".009 ghs Boomers" - but I didn't change the strings
    one-at-a-time like I should have (it only makes sense) - that might be 
    the reason why I had this problem. The tremelo only has 3 springs - so I
    don't think I could use anything but lite or extra-lite strings. 
    
    Anyway - I've already called a few places about setting up the guitar -
    will cost about $15-$20 including an intonation setting with an 
    electronic meter - sounds good to me!!
    
    Thanks again for the advice...
    

I suggest you go when you have it done and get them to show you what needs 
to be done, so you don't have to pay them to do this everytime you change
strings (that could get expensive real fast!).

If you're using the same gauge (and brand) of strings, you shouldn't have to
redo the tremelo setup and intonation adjustment each time, just replace the
strings, stretch them out good, and tune it up.  The rest of these things 
should fall back into place.

The tuning process for a floating trem is basically a matter of prediction and
repetation.  You just keep doing it in small increments until you get the 
final balance.  You're right, the tension of each string affects the rest,
but there is a balance point...

Good luck,
Greg

    Hi I have a strat also and just put a set of "boomers" on yesterday...
    the adj on the trem are for intonation I wouldn't screw with them at
    all,look to see if the trem is fairly level with the top of the body of
    the gutiar if it looks like it's sticking up,loosen the strings or if
    they are loose check the trem spring screws inside the back of the
    guitar to see if they are loose,if those things check out,bring it to a
    shop to check it out for you,hope this helps.....
    
    
    
    
                             Kevin

      Oh No - not the Kevin McCloskey I worked with in NYC back in
    1981. I didn't think your wife would let you have a guitar! B-}.
      I also use .009 Boomers on my B.C. Rich "strat" that has a Floyd
    on it and have never had a problem. I agree that with proper string
    tension the trem should be parallel to the top of the guitar. 
    If there's anything on my guitar that I couldn't figure out I would
    talk to one of my buddies at the music store. Hey, if you're supporting
    their business then they should be helpful. Actually, I bought my
    B.C. through mail order (East Coast Music) because I don't get along
    with the dealer that carries them here. When I had the guy I consider
    the best set-up guitar tech in town check out my axe he said 
    "It's perfect - I wouldn't change a thing". Made me feel good.
    
    						---/boom/---

        Quick'n'dirty  method  for  getting  a  trem  into  approximate
        alignment  following  a  string/gauge  change,  where  all  the
        strings have been removed:
        
        Guitar strung loosely - ie strings in place but not tensioned.
        
        Make a 'shim' (wood/plastic) such that when it's inserted under
        the trem behind the  bridge, the trem body is in the same plane
        as the guitar body, ie. parallel.
                
        Tension the strings  in the normal way, working from out to in,
        - high E, low  E,  B,  A,  G, D to ~concert pitch~, keeping the
        shim in place by increasing the trem spring pull, _just_ enough
        to hold the shim, if it  shows  signs  of becoming loose as the
        strings approach tune.  If the shim  is  tightly  held  by  the
        trem, then back off the trem spring adjustment  such  that  the
        shim is _just_ held by the trem spring pressure.
        
        Retune strings following a stretch to settle them in,  and then
        when they are holding pitch, remove the shim.  If  you  had set
        the  springs  to  _just_  hold the shim, then the trem will  be
        pretty much level at this point.  A slight tweak on the springs
        will fine  level  it  if  required, followed by a concert pitch
        tune up, and you should be all set.
        
        Andy
        
        
        
        
        

    
    I have a problem with my Jackson trem ...
    
    The bar itself doesn't stay in a firm position, it just hangs limp
    (*NO* funny comments guys 8^) ). I've checked the rubber bushels
    and they aren't worn. Anybody found a cure for this ?
           
    -Tony ( bustin' his shoulder trying to grab the bar every time he
            tries to pull up a harmonic 8^(  ).
    

re: Tony

Check to make sure the "jack" that the tremelo arm fits in is tight and 
isn't moving around underneath the plate on the Jackson.  You can tighten it
up with a wrench (spanner to you Brits) and a large screwdriver if it's loose.

I got tired of replacing those little bushings (and breaking tremelo arms
at the top bushing groove) on mine.  Seemed like the bushings would be worn 
to the point of being about useless in less then a week.  I ended up 
replacing the whole trem arm assembly with a piece from Schaller which I'm 
infinately happier with.  You can set the exact amount of tremelo
arm resistance on the fly using the screw ring that holds the arm in.  The 
Schaller part cost me about $9 (US) from Stewart-McDonalds.  I highly 
recommend this modification for Jackson tremelos!

Greg

Yeah, the socket is probably loose like Greg said.

But Tone, like Greg also said, the little bushings wear out in a week, so if
you've never replaced them, do it !

One day I'll replace my wiggle-stick with the Greg House Endorsed modification.
;)

PS - Greg, if you weren't so rough on your trems, you probably wouldn't have 
     SNAPPED all those bars !  

jc (Who wonders if Greg digs holes and uses his trem for a pick.  ;)

    
         
    Thanks for the help guys. The bushings have been in there since
    I bought it a few months ago, so the fact the the bushings are in 
    100% condition makes me think that they're not making the conections
    they should be. I'll go at it tonight and give the nuts a few 
    turns.
    
    Failing that I'll get to my local store and look for the GHEM 8^)
             
    Thanks again guys,
    -Tony

Yeah Tone,

Those bushings may LOOK like their 100%, but they aren't.

jc

I have to agree with Jeff, Tony.  The way those bushings wear, you really 
can't tell if they're worn or not by just looking at them.  Didn't you get
a little package of them with the guitar when you bought it?  They're very
easy to replace and inexpensive to buy if you don't have any.  Try swapping 
them out and see if it makes a difference.

I mentioned the socket being loose because mine used to do that periodically...

re: (Who wonders if Greg digs holes and uses his trem for a pick.  ;)

Using the trem arm on the strings instead of a pick makes some really cool 
sounds!!

Greg

<cringe>

re: <cringe>

Children and small animals flee in terror from my tremelo technique...

         
    Well, I made sure everything was nice and tight, and it didn't do
    much good.
              
    I'm gonna get some new bushings, and if that doesn't work, take
    it to the local guitar-guru.
         
    Cheers,
    -Tony

I'd go for the GHEM and replace the whole unit.  As Greg said, the stock bar 
is a little weak.  Sounds like it's an easy mod too.  I might go for it, just
because I'm tired of having to tighten this that and the other.  ;)  Sheeesh,
between my rubber necked Ibanez and my mechanical adjustments on the Charvel
I need a full time guitar tech to keep up with it...But I'll hang in there  ;)

Actually, I think the bar would be strong enough, but the spring tension on
a Jackson tail is strong !  A lot stronger than my Ibanez.  When I first played 
the Ibanez and grabbed a piece of that trem, I almost went thru the floor 
boards.  ;)

jc

re: replacing the bar with the Schaller unit.

Very easy modifiction. Just unscrew the stock "socket" piece and remove it, 
then reem out the hole in the tremelo baseplate just a little (removing most of
the threads for the stock unit, the modification can't be reversed).  It's 
easy to reem this with pretty much any blunt instrument that will fit in there
since the baseplate is made of a soft aluminum.  Then you put in the 
replacement "socket" supplied by Schaller, tighten it up and you're all set.

I've had absolutely no problems whatsoever with this modification since I 
did it on my Charvel last fall.  I like the way the bar fits in now (slides
into the socket, then has a screw-down adjustment which both holds it in
and adjusts it's resistance to movement) and the bar itself is much stronger.
It does take a little getting accustomed to since the replacement bar is 
just a little shorter then the stock one (less then an inch) and it sits up
a little bit higher (I always thought the stock bar was too low anyway).

You can get the Schaller arms in chrome, black, or gold finish too.  The 
Jackson arms only come in chrome.  I got a nice black one to match the rest
of the black hardware on my guitar.  FWIW the black finish on it seems very
durable, it's neither faded or worn since I put it on there and I play the 
guitar a lot and tend to use the bar quite a bit.

For less then $9, it's been one of the best investments I've ever made in a 
guitar part.

>Actually, I think the bar would be strong enough, but the spring tension on
>a Jackson tail is strong !  A lot stronger than my Ibanez.  When I first played 
>the Ibanez and grabbed a piece of that trem, I almost went thru the floor 
>boards.  ;)

I've noticed that too.  With the same number of springs and the action set up
in a similar way, the Ibanez tremelos have a lot lighter action and more range.
I've been trying to figure this out for the longest time and it's stumped me.
Measured the different parts of each and they were about the same.  I can't
figure it out...

Greg

Greg, I always thought that the distance from the fulcrum point to the
string-anchor point was longer on the ibanez...thus giving it more range.
I'll measure that when I get home and report results here.

jc

    
    Dumb question on tremelo's.  I have an Ibanez with a floyd rose copy.
    I *never* use the whammy bar.  Should I adjust the tremelo to the 
    "against the body" mode or let it be?  I have a bad habit of resting 
    my wrist on the trem and sometimes I inadvertently press too hard
    causing me to sound like doo-doo.  What are the advantages and
    disadvantages?  My strat is in lock down mode, but it ain't a floyd
    rose either.
    
    signed,
    -pondering in the piedmont

re: Pat

Since you're a woodworker of sorts, I'd recommend blocking the Ibanez 
tremelo up inside the guitar with some blocks of wood (in the spring cavity) 
rather then trying to pull it down enough to make it flat against the face.  
If yours is like most Ibanez models I've seen recently, you won't be able to 
lower it enough to disable it while still retaining enough string height.

re: Coop

I measured that on an RG570 and my Charvel model 4, virtually the same...

Greg

    
    re .6
    
    I was wondering if it was the same one but I figgured they would have	
    caught on to you by now.....; ) 
    actually the wife ***bought me the Strat,amp,etc****...so there.....
    you still maken belive you can fix printers or'd you move to the big	
    stuff...; ) and you still workin in barfutibel downtown Rodchester..??
    
    
    
                                later,Kevin

    I have an old Baretta ( Kramer ) . I use the floyd sometimes flat,
    sometimes not flat. For these instruments, to flatten it you have to
    remove a shim under the heel of the neck , screw the trem down as far
    as it'll go. Then tighten the screws so it sits Flat.
    In order to do a lot of divebombing you also might want to grind the bottom
    of the floyd:
                               /------------------
    	string.....	       |
    		------------------|
    		|-----------------|
                  
    		^ here 
    
    You do this so it's round and dosent' rip the finish apart there,
    But I haven't done it.                  
        That gives me an action soo low I could , well, it's low!
    
    The action on the Floyd has to be higher to do pullups on the trem
    because the bridge isn't on the same line as the screws that hold
    the trem in. 
    
    There's more resonanse this way , at least to me.  The number and
    tightness  of the springs still is important, in that it regulates the 
    amount you have to yank the stick to dive.
    
    

    I installed backstops in my Ibanezs. I uses a steel bracket and mounted
    it in a way so that I can still push the bar down.
    
    
           +------------------------------------------+
           |       +--+                       +--+    |
           |      /   )O\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/------ |    |
           |     /    |                       |  |    |
           |    +     )O\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/------ |    |
           |====|)    |                       |  |    |
           |    |     )               +-----\ |  |    |
           |====|)    |  Backstop ->  |   O  )|  |    |
           |    +     )               +-----/ |  |    |
           |     \    |                       |  |    |
           |      \   )O\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/------ |    |
           |       +--+                       +--+    |
           +------------------------------------------+
    
    There is room for a single screw directly under the bridge. As long
    as the radius of the business end of the backstop is greater than the
    radius from the screw it will remain stable. I've tightened the springs
    so that I can bend a string perhaps 3-4 half steps before the other
    strings go out of tune.
    
    One of my Ibanezs came with a "backstop", but it was worthless. I took
    out the damn spring contraption and hacksawed a 5 cent steel bracket.
    
    I've never been happier with the setup.
    
    							John.