Conference napalm::guitar

    
    As usual, Peavey had one...used it should easily be in your range.  
    It was also sold with a 210 watt power amp built-in (for biamping with
    amps that already have a crossover built-in).
    
    Ampeg made some 4-10s that you could shop around for. 
    
    							Brian

    If I may use this note, what is bi-amping and crossover?
    
    call me stupid (but not all at once please)
                                                        Jim

    re .-1
    
    Bi-amping is using two amps for the output.  Like one for the treble
    and one for the bass.  Some of the advantages are it doesn't take much
    wattage to make treble loud, but it does for bass.  So you buy amps
    accordingly and you wind up with a setup that will get much louder than
    would otherwise be possible.  Also, when you separate out the treble
    and bass, the sound tends to be cleaner because such a wide range of
    frequencies aren't running through the same devices.
    
    The crossover is the thing that splits the signal into the two parts,
    i.e. the treble and bass.
    
    Some times folks go so far as to tri- and quad- amp the sound for the
    same reason.
    
    Hope this helps,
    Will

     re-.0 the peavey 2x10" is a good deal..especially w/ the power
    amp built in....
     re-.2 see note 610
    -Bill (peavey nut+sometimes k.h.basher =BvP)

    bi-amping  (simplified) is using 2 or more amps to power speakers.
    This is usaully done in P.A. systems to give more power to the bass
    bins than the horns to try to get better sound.  An example would
    be to power the bass bins with say 400 watts and the mids with 200
    watts and the horns with 200 watts.  
    
    A crossover is the device that splits the different frequencies going
    to the speakers.  I mean, you don't want to send 50 hz to the horns
    or say 10khz to the bass bins so you a crossover to send the right
    frequencies to the right drivers.  A crossover is basically a R
    (resistive), L (inductive), C (capacitance) circuit that traps certain
    frequencies and block other frequencies.
    
    
    Is this clear?  Remember, this is just the basic idea, it can really
    get deep when you start talking crossovers.
    
    
    Don

   Wow.  You guys are fast.  4 replies in the time it took me to come up with
   the same answer.  :-)

   -- Sam

    Tom,
    
       Just as you mentioned, I would also go towards the Peavy - ONLY
    if it has the sound you want. I cannot think of anything else that
    would be in an affordable price range. Does Joe's have a 2x10 or
    4x10 cab you could look into? HOw about JBL's?
       Maybe look into a (Don't cringe!) "used" cab? YOu may be able to 
    get a Steal if you look into the Want Ads.
    
    John

    
    
    I just had a strange conversation with a "Major NYC" music dealer
    that had both Hartke and PV cabs. The guy on the phone said he
    couldn't sell me either PV or Hartke via mail order, but he
    didn't explain why. He also wouldn't give me a price over the phone.
    
    Any idea why this would be?
    
    -Tom

    
    
    re: .7
    
    	I'm not opposed to used, but haven't seen too much.
    
    	I was able to locate a loaded 2x10 "Sonic" cab at an
    	attractive price. I'm not sure what the drivers in it
    	are, but I can get it pretty cheap. Any comments on
    	"Sonic" cabs?
    
    -Tom
    

    re: .8
    
    I'll bet he's under orders not to give mail order because the smaller,
    non-mail order stores complained to the manufacturer that they couldn't
    compete...
    
    Edd

    Not only that, but large items like this are tough to ship, and
    costly to insure.
    
    Also companies like Peavey go out of their way to protect their
    franchise stores from too much local competition.
    
    Mark

    
    Another company that makes 2x10 cabs is Mesa Boogie, but it goes
    without saying that they are big bucks. They offer road ready and
    deisel cabs. Road ready are flight case styled, and deisel have
    a black finish with lighter duty hardware. The deisel cabs are
    probably much lighter than the road ready cabs. Mesa Bass cabs
    also incorporate theile designs. You might get lucky and find Mesa
    cabs used. There was a note way back that illustrated that Mesa
    Boogie cabs were actually quite competetively priced when compared
    with comparable units.
    
    I believe the Sonic cabs mentioned in an earlier reply feature
    EV speakers, and are priced quite reasonably. I am almost certain
    that Joe's makes 2x10 cabs as well.
    
    I think Gallien Krueger also sells bass cabs to accompany their
    heads.
    
    Mark
    

    
    
    re: Boogie Cabs
    
    	In the latest GP, the Boogie ad has two types of 2x10 bass
    cabs, a 200W and a ?W version. Prices below:
    
    	2x10 Black Shadow (EV?) W/Bullet Horn
    		Diesel: $300
    		Road Ready: $400
    
    	2x10 200W 10L w/Bullet Horn
    		Diesel: $475	
    		Road Ready: $575 (ouch!)
    
    
    -Tom
    
    
    	

       I got a Sonic 210 EV from The Music Factory in Manchester about
    2 years ago for $195.  I know they still carry Sonic however I'm
    sure the price may have ballooned up since.
    
                                                          db3
    

    
    Re: .13
    
    Since a 10L is an EVM model, I guess the Black Shadow speakers are
    "generic", i.e. not EVs.
    
    Re: Sonic
    
    Many dealers load Sonics with EVs but they are typically sold empty.
    The Sonic cabs I've seen and heard are decent.  Tom, at the price you
    told me, I'd just try it out to see if it sounds good, if so, jump on
    it.
    
    Re: Peavey by mail
    
    Believe it or not, I have *never* seen anyone offering Peavey by mail
    (why bother, how much cheaper could you sell the stuff for?). I'm sure
    it's part of their franchising deal, just like how many MO places state
    that they cannot quote prices on Fender (or some other brands) under
    their franchise agreement.
    
    Re: GK
    
    Unless they've come down a *lot*, the GK cabs are way overpriced. 
    Sure, they use EVMs, but the 1-15 GK cab is actually more expensive
    than a road-ready Boogie cab shipped to your door tax-free.  No
    contest there!
    		
    						Brian

     If I'm not mistaken they're built for mesa by e.v. anyway.
    -Bill

    EV sells at least 2 differant lines of speakers, the top of the line
    (M or L series ??) and their "Force" series. The less expensive Mesa 
    speakers may be a variant of the Force series.
    
    	It sounds like a Mesa Boogie 2x15 in the Deisel cabs for $300
    is the way to go. It fits your price range, and Mesa Boogie is well
    known for bullet-proof products.
    
    Looking through the Mesa catalog, I notice an obvious hole in their
    line. They sell rack-mount guitar preamps and power amps, as well as
    sus-4 racks, however, they do not seem to offer matching speaker cabs
    for their rack systems. Their guitar speaker cabs are all made to match
    their regular guitar heads and as extensions to their combos. If I
    was going to put together a Mesa Boogie rack system, I would insist
    on road-ready cabs to match in either 2x12, 2x10, 4x10, or 4x12
    configurations. 
    
    They also do not offer Bass preamps, although they do claim their
    studio preamp "works great for bass as well". In my mind the biggest
    advantage to using a preamp/amp is the ability to drive the preamp
    directly into a PA or recording console, and leave the power amp
    off, so that there is no sound to bleed into recording mics, etc.
       
    Perhaps my Mesa Boogie catalog is out-dated. I am considering starting
    a rack system by first purchasing a preamp. One complaint I have about
    the studio preamp is that the reverb cannot be foot-switched. Why do
    manufacturers exclude critical functions when including them probably
    only costs a few pennies ??
    
    Mark
    

    Re: Road Ready
    
    You're right, Mesa has never offered the "Road Ready" setups for guitar
    cabs.  Probably due to lack of demand.  Peavey sold a series of 4-10
    and 4-12 cabs a few years ago with an "FC" suffix in the model name,
    essentially a road case configuration like the Mesa Road Ready. 
    Apparently nobody wanted them; notice they now sell Marshall-like
    straight/slant cabs.
    
    Peavey has come out with a new rack solution for speakers, though; they
    have a 1-15 "Futura" bass cab and a guitar cab as well (forget what
    configuration).  These are all metal and have rack flanges.  GK has
    been marketing 2-8, 4-8 and 1-15 cabs in a similar metal enclosure as
    well (with racks being only 19", it'd be tough to do 10s or 12s in such
    a box).  
    
    One disadvantage of these cabs is that they weigh a ton (not that
    Marshall cabs are light, though) which is not big deal for a large act
    with road crew that can handle the weight in order to get the
    protection and ease of setup.  For the average guy on the street,
    they can be too much....go ask Dan Daddieco how he likes hauling his
    Road Ready 2-15 about.
    
    							Brian

    
    I've seen and heard Dan's rig.  It sounds great. I've also heard
    him play though another rig (possibly Miguel's) and it definately
    didn't have the same snap to it. They do look like a real pain to 
    move, though.  I would've gone with 2 1x15's instead. I believe 
    the perfect combo for bass is a 1x15 and 2x10 combination, especially
    if you're after that bright JB sound.
    
    I've got a question. Would a set of bass speaker cabs double as a set
    of Sound reinforcement cabs as well. I don't mean to use them for
    bass and PA simultaneously, but if someone wants to use them for bass
    one night, and pa the next, would it work out ? How would vocals sound
    through a 1x15, 2x10 combo ? If the 2x10 included a bullet horn, would
    it help ? I figure a large investment like this should be versatile !
    Of course, you would need 2 1x15's and 2 2x10/bullets to pull it off.
    
    Mark
    

      Hey - Peavey does make a rack mount "futura" speaker cab with
    a 12" scorpion in it. I'm sure they did this to match their new
    line of rack gear and I think it's a great idea! When it comes to
    rack systems my criteria would be sound quality, versatility, 
    portability, and aesthetics in that order. The speaker/rack set-up
    would definitly help the aesthetics anyway. 
    
    							---/boom/---

    re. 17
    
    	Well consider your complaint solved as I have footswitch jacks on
    the back of the Studio Preamp that do channel switching,eq and turn's
    the reverb on and off..... plus an instrument input....
    

    
    
    
    	The saga has ended for now. I picked up the sonic cab I mentioned
    earlier for a ridiculously cheap price (yes, Brian, at the price we 
    talked about :-)).
    
    	Their are a couple of questions I hav, though. I pulled one
    of the drivers out of the cab to see if it had any kind of name
    on it and of course, it didn't. I had a label with a number of some
    kind as well as the ohm rating. If I got the exact numbers, does anyone
    know if it'd be possible to figure out the power rating, or am I
    out of luck? 
    
    	The next question relates to impedance when two cabs are *not* the
    same rating. The Sonic is 4 ohm and the thiele is 8 ohm. What is the
    impedance if I run them parallel? Also if I rewire the sonic for 
    16 ohm, what would the impedacnce be if I ran them parallel? 
    
    	Lastly, does anyone have any plans for a *cheap* 2 way crossover?
    
    -Tom
    (One happy camper with a 2x10 cab! :-))

    4 ohms and 8 ohms in parallel is 2.666 ohms.
    
    
    
    Don

    
    And 16 ohms and 8 ohms in parallel is 5.333 ohms.  Probably a better
    idea.
    
    Crossovers:   Go to the library and check out a book on speaker
    construction.  Most have plans for crossovers (you may have to modify
    the plans to account for wattage and crossover frequency).
    
    							Brian

    re 22.
    
    	Tom,I took all the part numbers off a couple of speakers and called
    New England Speaker in Stoneham,Ma. They were able to determine the
    brand of speaker and depending on cone size they were either 60 or 120
    watt speakers. It would also help to know if they have cast speaker
    frames like EV's or otherwise.....
    
    							Rick
    

    
    
    	I opened up the cab again last night to get the numbers and
    check out the speaker frame. It was (:-() not a cast frame, it 
    was stamped. I think this pretty much rules out EVM speakers. I
    did get the numbers off the speakers and I'm gonna call Sonic 
    today to see if they can help.
    
    	On a related topic, could someone give me a little diagram for
    a series speaker connection? I want to convert this cab to 16 ohm.
    
    -Tom
    

    2 8 ohmers in series...
    
   + -----------+    - .......+    - ----
    		 \  /          \  /      |
    		  ==            ==       |
                                         |
   - ------------------------------------|
    
    
	At 16 ohms, your head will be running cool, but may not produce
    it's best tone.
    
	Mark
    

    
    
>	At 16 ohms, your head will be running cool, but may not produce
>   it's best tone.
>    
>	Mark
 
	I'm not sure I understand. Why would 16ohms be any different.

	Also, I'm planning on running it paralled with an 8ohm cab.

-Tom
   

    re .-1
    
    It works like this:      V=I*R  (voltage=current*resistance)
    
    and      w=v*i    (power=voltage*current)
    
    The amp will produce a given voltage, right?  If you double the
    resistence that it's driving through (the 16 ohms instead of 8) it cuts
    your output current in half.  Use the current in the power equation,
    and your power (watts) is cut in half.
    
    Similarly, if you run it at four ohms, you doulble the possible output
    current, *BUT*  get this:
    
    Use the v=i*r, substitute this v into the power equation and you get
    this:       w=i*i*r
    
    Since power is in watts (otherwise known as *heat*), you will
    generate a *lot* more heat in the output transformer.  You run the risk
    of blowing it, i.e. melting the insulation in the windings.
    
    Does that help or just confuse?
    
    Will

	re: .-1

	I understand how impedance affects power rating. What I'm unclear
is how it will affect the the tone.

-Tom

For bass it probably won't since you don't generally go for a distorted
amp sound.

For guitar where people like to drive their amps hard to get that "special 
tone" it might.

Greg

	I called Sonic today and the cab is a model B210 (210B) and 
is rated at 160W rms. It'll work out fine as soon as I can get/make 
a crossover. 

-Tom

    re .30 and 31
    
    Right, what Greg said.
    
    Part of what can create a distorted sound is trying to draw too much
    current out of a device.  So if you cut the current in half, I guess I
    could see how it might change the tone.
    
    Will (who forgot to write it into the first reply, Oh well... |^} <--
    asleep at the wheel...) 

    
    
    	Just an update on Hartke Cabs. They have a new series of cabs
    called the 'Transporter Series', which are less expensive than the
    standard XL series cabs. I know that they have Bass cabs in this 
    series, but I dunno about guitar cabs. 
    
    	They are available in the 2x10 and 4x10 configurations.
    
    -Tom
    

    I'm looking to build my own 3x10 cab in the near future,  I basically
    want 3 100 watt 10" speakers in it.  I also want to angle the top two
    
    Setting it out like this  
    
                         O O
                          O.
    
    Is there anything exciting happening on the speaker front that I should
    know about,  ie new manufacturers in the U.S. that haven't filtered
    through yet? 
    
    I'm quite a big Celestion fan,  as well as  Fane,  but I am not
    amazingly knowledgable about such things.  
    
    Also,  what sort of wood do you recomend that I use for the cab.  
    
    Chipboard is supposed to have great acoustic properties,  but is
    somewhat fragile to lug around.
    
    
    Nigel  

>    Chipboard is supposed to have great acoustic properties,  but is
>    somewhat fragile to lug around.

Any HEAVY !!  It's all that glue and horse-snot holding the particles
together I guess.

jc

    When you're a bass player you get used to weighty gear to lug around.
    
    I used to lug a flightcased 8x10 Trace rig with a 250 watt head,  That
    muvva weighed a bloody ton.  
    
    I won't do that again in a hurry,  but I don't mind a bit of muscle to
    get a decent sound.
    
    Nigel

    But it's still not as bad as a Twin...