Conference napalm::guitar

    
    
    Didn't take you long jc!
    
    Mr. Ed...

    MIDI mixers do exist, but they're expensive. Yamaha puts one out
    complete with motorized sliders in the $2K ballpark.
    
    ...now, if you could map CC7 to the output of your device, you could
    use a pedal to vary your mix. (Actually any continuous controller
    ped to output level would work...)
    
    Edd

    $2K eh ??  Motorized pots ?  Cool...That would be totally trick.
    Sheeesh...  How about maybe just a small rack mountable mixer ??
    I guess thats what I'll need.
    
    jc
    

    RANE makes a line level mixer but it isn't MIDI.  There's an ad for one
    in the latest GFTPM.
    
    Mike

    MIDI mixers can come in basically two flavors. The aforementioned
    Yamaha unit (DMP-7?) varies your mix in real-time, dynamically changing
    levels in response to MIDI CC messages. A second type (can't think of
    any examples) store "scenes", discrete combinations of fader, pan, FX
    send, etc. levels and respond to patch change messages. These are
    somewhat cheaper.
    
    Edd

    
    The Tascam MM-1 is a 16/20 channel (first four channels are stereo)
    mixer that is of the "snapshot" type, i.e. you can go from one setting
    to another but not *fade* between them.  It is a big brother to the
    mixer in the new 644 Portastudio machines.
    

    I would think there must be a way to use the MP1 and SGE together
    without a mixer. Does the MP1 have stereo effect returns ? If so,
    why not place the SGE in the loop ? 
    
    If this is not the case, I would think a Rane splitter/mixer would
    do the job. Why on earth would you need a midi-controlled mixer
    just to control a guitar preamp and an efx unit ?
    
    Mark
    

    Mark, I think your right.  I think an inexpensive (is there such
    a thing?) stereo rack-mixer will do the job.  I just thought a MIDI
    mixer would be neeto...Ya know ?  ;^)
    
    The troubles seem to start when I run FROM the MP1 to the SGE. 
    The MP1's Chorus gets smooched by the SGE (using maybe a delay,
    exciter, compressor, noise gate patch).  I thought, "well, I'll
    just run the SGE into the MP1...But the Mp1 only has one input...
    Not to mention what compression will do to the input signal to the
    MP1...  Anyhow, I just thought that a mix of all FOUR outputs to
    the power amp might produce some excellent results...
    
    What do ya think ?  Any other alternatives ??
    
    jc

yeah blow off the SGE and get a Quadraverb....they're awesome and the MP-1
has all the distortion you;re likely to ever need...

dbii :-)

    Yeah, I've given that a thought or too.  ADA suggests the DSP128+
    or the Quadraverb...  I still like the SGE though...  It's got more
    blast for the $$$.  It's got an excellent compressor, exciter,
    harmonizer, twin delays, AND reverbs...  Now if I can only get it
    to stop stomping on the MP1 that has the BEST distortion I've heard...
    
    jc

    When you refer to a rack-mount mixer, I think in terms of my Peavey
    701R mixer, which is really a good pa mixer for a small band pa.
    In my mind this would be overkill for your application. A Rane
    splitter mixer is a 1 space rack unit that can be used to mix
    6 signals into two, or split 2 signals into 6. It is especially
    useful as an effects mixer. Check one out. I believe they sell
    for about $250.
    
    Mark

    re: Mark
    
    You asked if the MP-1 has a stereo effects loop...  No it's effects
    loop is mono.
    
    re: Jeff
    
    I tried running my MP-1 in mono mode with some chorus and it worked
    just fine.  I even pulled the wires and wired around the SGE and the
    chorus sounded exactly the same whether I used the SGE or not.  
    
    I still think that it may not be the best idea to take the word of a
    competator about your product.  I have a hard time believing that some
    guy from ADA is gonna know about the internals of an ART product.  You
    tried calling ART?
    
    My understanding of the SGE is that it only uses "stereo imaging" when
    there is only one input.  My more likely scenerio is that you have a
    bad cable running one of the channels to the SGE so that it doesn't see
    one of the inputs.  That could squash the stereo effect of the MP-1
    chorus.
    
    Personally I think that it's a total waste of money to buy a mixer to
    do this.  I like the SGE chorus quite a lot.  I've MUCH more flexable
    then the minimal chorus in the MP-1.  Why not just use it?  It gives
    you a lot more control over it's parameters and I suspect that you
    could get a sound from it that you like just was well as the MP-1
    chorus, if indeed it's really reducing the effect of the MP-1 chorus
    (still not sure I believe that...).
    
    Greg
            

    Guess what?
    
    The Roland GP-16 does exactly what you want (unfortunately at the wrong
    price).  I'm tellin' ya, it's expensive, and it's advantages aren't
    always obvious, but it is a real hip piece.
    
    	db

    Does the ART SGE have stereo ins and outs ??
    
    If so, run the MP1 into the SGE. Use the MP1 for *Tone* and the
    SGE for efx.
    
    Mark
    

    >Does the ART SGE have stereo ins and outs ??
    
    Yes, it does.
    
    >If so, run the MP1 into the SGE. Use the MP1 for *Tone* and the
    >SGE for efx.
     
    Works for me...

    I noticed an ad for a new line mixer from Rane.  It has 8 channels in
    a single rack space package. Each channel has stereo ins and outs. If 
    you plug a mono input into a channel, you get a stereo output. It also 
    features stereo auxillary effect sends, and a stereo master section. 
    probably an expensive little bugger, but it is still rather incredible 
    what they can fit into 1 7/8" of rack space. I noticed the ad in Guitar 
    World (the Eric Clapton issue) and they seemed to be pushing it as a 
    keyboard mixer. The term "Line Mixer" indicates that this box is designed
    to handle "line level" signals (~1 volt line level). Rane offers an
    optional plug-in that allows you to use mic level signals with this
    mixer on a per-channel basis.
    
    Anyone that uses more than one guitar on stage should have some sort
    of mixer to connect everything into. I realized this about 10 years
    ago, when I was using 3 guits (A Gibson 345, Strat, and acoustic) on
    stage. It makes life so much easier to be able to plug all your 
    guitars into a mixer, and plug the mixer into your amp. It saves you
    from having to plug and unplug cables between songs. It also provides
    a way to drive the same signal into your efx and amp regardless which
    guitar you grab. You can use a china marker to mark off the required
    settings on the mixer so that all guitar signals are the same level.
    The mixer should be placed conveniently, so that you don't have to go
    back to the amp at all. I am not saying that the Rane line mixer would
    be appropriate for this purpose. I guitar mixer would have to be designed 
    to handle instrument level signals, and provide an instrument level
    output as well. I have an old Boss KM4 instrument mixer which works
    great for this. It has 4 input channels, each having a level control,
    and a master section with a master volume control. This is an active
    mixer. Stay away from any kind of passive (resistance) mixer, as these
    load the signal down. My only complaint about the Boss mixer is that 
    it is not rack-mountable =|:^(  I'm considering getting a sliding rack
    shelf to place this on.
    
    Mark
    

    Well I've got a question here - I have a 4 channel Bogen mixer that's
    set up the same way (4 channel vol/1 master volume), BUT all the
    connections are XLR's.  I haven't tried it for sub-mixing guitars,
    but how would it affect my signal if I used line transformers at
    the inputs to accept the �" plug, and then use an XLR female/�" male
    plug cord to go to the power amp ?  Am I getting into a mess here ?
                                                                 
    
    				Scary .... just curious ..

    
    It would work, but like you said, it's messy. I would also assume 
    that the Bogen is designed to produce a line level output. I wouldn't
    drive a line level into stomp boxes or guitar amps. They are designed
    for instrument level signals. Line levels signals have ~1v amplitude.
    Instument level signals have  ~.1v  (100mv) amplitude, therefore line 
    level signals have  10 times higher amplitude,  and will most likely
    overdrive efx and guitar amps. You could still get away with using the 
    Bogen mixer, but you should turn the master volume control down so that 
    the output is at an instrument level.  You should determine the best 
    setting by doing an A/B test. First plug your guitar straight into the 
    amp and set the volume where you like it. Then plug the intrument into 
    the mixer, and the output into your amp. Match the volume so it is the 
    same as you got straight. You should find the master volume is set much 
    lower than when you use it for PA.
    
    Actually, I prefer to plug my guitars straight into the amp or efx, 
    but in a situation where you are switching from one instrument to 
    another on stage, using a mixer is more desirable than unplugging 
    one guitar, plugging in the next, and making adjustments at the amp, 
    or efx. It's the lesser of two "evils" especially when switching
    instruments between songs.  
    
    Many people in this conference have stated the benefits to using
    a guitar, cord, and amp....nothing else to complicate matters.
    There are definate advantages to using this approach. Unfortunately,
    unless your amp has all the efx you need built-in, somewhere along
    the line, you need to introduce another box to the setup. The next
    best scenario is guitar>cord>effect>cord>amp. In this scenario, you
    are better of if you keep you total cord length as short as possible.
    For instance, if you are using a rack mount multi-efx box, place it
    right on top of your amp, and use a 2-3' cord to connect it to the
    amp. 
    
    All of the people using excessive equipment (ie. rack systems) are
    paying the price of living a complicated life, where malfunctions
    are commonplace, and trouble-shooting is tedious. 
    
    As far as using mixers is concerned, I would like to see pre-amp
    manufacturers design this function directly into the pre-amp. They
    should provide an input for your Strat, LP, and acoustic, with a
    pot or selector switch to kick in the one you're playing. This would
    eliminate the need for a mixer. It's not like most players are only
    using one instrument. I guess they figure, since most people are 
    using racks, you can always add a mixer, plus there is additional
    profit to be made selling them. I can't recall seeing an actual
    "instrument mixer" in a rack mount package. Has anyone else seen 
    one ?
    
    Mark
    
    

RE < Note 1552.18 by MILKWY::JACQUES >

	An even easier way of doing things would be to make a simple switching 
box.  It could have, say, three input jacks, one output, and a DP3T switch on it
to select input-to-output routing.  I can't imagine it costing more than $10 to
build and wouldn't take much more than an hour to assemble.

	Dan

>    As far as using mixers is concerned, I would like to see pre-amp
>    manufacturers design this function directly into the pre-amp. 
    
    They used to, it was called two channels.  Before channel switching,
    amps used to have two channels you could plug into which were
    independent.  Sure, many of them had different features on the two
    (most commonly only one had reverb) but some like the old Peavey
    Automix amps and the Sunn Beta amps could be used as true two channel
    amps or channel switching amps depending on which jack you plugged
    into.  Nowadays even finding two input jacks on an amp is hard.
    
    						Brian
    

    Re. .19   I built a switchbox once and was not satisfied with it
    at all. At the very least, you should use a "coaxial" switch, which
    provides a shielded environment and prevents pops and clicks from
    getting to the amp. This would do nothing to control the volume of
    your guitars. You would have to go to the amp to adjust for differant
    instruments, and your efx would see a differant signal level depending
    on which instrument you're playing. Perhaps I am just getting fussy
    in my old age, but I much prefer using professional quality equipment
    even if I have to pay a premium price for it. Heck, I don't even make
    up my own cords that much anymore, despite the fact that I have all
    the tools and soldering irons I need.
    
    Re. .20  Brian, I follow you. My new Fender "The Twin" has four input
    jacks on the front. The amp has tri-mode operation which allows you to  
    A.channel switch  B.Use two discreet channels, or  C.use both channels 
    for parallel chaining mode. I suppose I could plug two guitars into the
    channel switching inputs, turn the volume down on the guitar not being 
    used, and place the efx in the loop. This would work, but I have a few
    gotcha's. First of all, my Gibson ES345 is wired in stereo. If I use
    a jack which jumps both pickups together (stereo plug on one end, mono
    plug on the other) the volume controls on the guitar seem to interact.
    If I use a stereo cord and plug them into two discreet channels on my
    instrument mixer, there is not interaction. I generally use up all four
    channels of my instrument mixer by using one for the Gibson bridge
    pickup, one for the Gibson neck pickup, one for my Telecaster, and one
    for my Guild acoustic/electric. This works out great. I use a China
    marker to make a mark on the instrument mixer so that all instruments
    have the same exact gain going to my efx. It works for me.......
    
    Anyone familiar with Gerry Garcia. His custom made electric guitar
    has a unique wiring scheme. The outputs from the three pickups goes
    into a unity gain buffer, through a selector switch and out the jack
    to his efx. The signal returns to the guitar and goes through the
    volume and tone pots, then goes out another jack to his amp. One
    jack is stereo (effect send/return) and the other (output) is mono. 
    The unity gain buffer insures that all pickups have the same output.
    The effect send/return insures that his efx always see exactly the
    same signal level. It works for him........
    
    I noticed that Digitech/DOD now makes a plastic molded carrying case
    for the larger-size effects pedals. This case is similar to a Boss
    BCB6 carry case (or equivalent) except that it is made specifically 
    for their larger (Digitech) efx. I wonder if this would accomidate 
    things like Morley pedals, cry-baby wah-wahs, Boss expression pedals,
    instrument mixers, and other odd sized stomp boxes ???
    
    Later....
    
    Mark
    

    re: .16
    
    > It makes life so much easier to be able to plug all your 
    > guitars into a mixer, and plug the mixer into your amp. It saves you
    > from having to plug and unplug cables between songs. 
    
    Not to mention allowing you to play one of the guitars with a violin
    while it's still on the stand...
    
    Nigel T.

  There are professional quality A/B boxes on the market that use FET switching.

							Tom Boilard