Conference napalm::guitar

    Hurry up and figure this out, will ya?  Pat and I need some backup!
    
    Wow, I'm really alot of help......8^)
    
    Steve_who_just_couldn't_resist....

    Why don't you just ask your questions in this conference?  I'm sure
    you're not the only one who'd learn something from the answers,
    and that's (one of the things) what conferences are for.
    
    Give it a shot.
    
    								Marc
    
              who_plays_both_and_stands_ready_to_mislead_you

    Dave ??  Dave ??  Help this gal out so we in SC can add a keyboard
    to our jam sessions !!!
    
    jc

    OK, OK, I wasn't going to put any more stuff in the NOTESfile for
    a few reasons.  One, because it wasn't really a PIANO/Keyboard
    NOTESfile, and two, because I *probably* have a lot of stupid
    questions.  But, you've inspired my stupidity!
    
    Thanks for some electronic mail responses already.  I've already
    come to the ugly conclusion that what was COMPLETELY missing from
    my grade school piano lessons was any sort of Music Theory whatsoever.
    
    So, question #1.  What's a good first song to learn that's not too
    tough and will be fun for the rock/blues guitarists too????
    
    -jk

    Does this mean I can have your Ibanez now ?
    
    ;^)

    You've got a guitar shop at your house now !  You don't need another
    one, that is unless it's a Strat ....
    
    
    
    
    				Scary

    �   What's a good first song to learn that's not too tough and will 
    �   be fun for the rock/blues guitarists too????
        
    Pick something with just a few chords and jam around with it a bit.
    The backbone of rock 'n roll is a thing called the one-four-five
    chord sequence.  Lots of classics, such as many by Chuck Berry, use
    this sequence.  Get familiar with this and you've learned 90% of
    thousands of songs.
    
    								Marc

    Jean, 
    I made a list of all the I, IV, V progressions (major) for Pat.
    He'd BETTER still have it....
    
    Steve

OK - the first confusing thing I've run into, now that I have gotten
a *small* amount of theory behind me....

When I am listening to a song, I then search on the keyboard to find
the "matching" note.  Once that is found, I can usually bang out the
rhythm accompaniment with one finger.  The hard part is turning most
of those single notes into chords.  

The first few songs I tried, I played a major chord, the guitarist
played the matching chord, and we sounded just like the song.  This
worked great for about 3 songs.  Last nite, we tried some new songs.
Still no problem poking around on one finger.  But, trying to play
the chord was HARD.  The guitarist played the chord just fine, but
I was roving all around the note, looking for the chord that
sounded right.  Finally I realized it was an inversion of the major
chord.  In fact, all 3 main notes of the song had the inverted chords
to match.  The regular major chords sounded sick.  

My question is this.....how do I know if a guitar play says "F major"
whether it is a REAL F major or some type of perverted (inverted!)
F major.  And conversely, if I'm the one doing the "figuring out",
do guitar players have inverted chords, and why did the song last
night sound OK with the piano playing inverted and the guitar player
seeming to play the regular chord ????    
    
          (or maybe we just *thought* it did ! :-))) )
    
    did !  :-)))

    one hint is to listen to the highest note in the chord and
    then to invert downwards from there, so if you hear an A 
    as the highest note, the F inversion is probably C-F-A.
    
    If you're playing blues, the major chords are often substituted
    by 7th, 9th, #9th, and/or 13th chords. Easy fingerings for these
    chords on guitar do not necessarily mean easy fingerings on piano.
    For example, one F13 inversion would be (from the bottom)
    
    F Eb A D (and, possibly, G on top); nearly 2 octaves for one chord.
    My understanding is that piano chords tend to be more clustered
    together. So you have to work out your own inversions for more
    complex chords.
    
    -dave

    
    Since guitars have six strings (therefore chords can have up to six
    notes) the concept of inversions which is simple enough on keys doesn't
    translate well to guitar.
    
    I.e. an E major chord   E-G#-B
    first inversion:        G#-B-E
    second inversion:       B-E-G#
    
    on guitar, played in "open"position: E-B-E'-G#'-B'-E''  (' for octave)
    
    Here you have the notes of the triad split over two octaves.  You have
    both the normal triad plus the first and second inversions if you
    isolate three adjacent strings....you also get the "Pete Townsend"
    chord of E-B-E' which is neither major *or* minor.
    
    I've noticed that a jazz pianist friend of mine uses very tight clusters
    when chording.  For instance the F13 inversion from the last reply
    might be played D-Eb-F-A, which due to the half step interval between D
    and Eb sounds crazy, but it works.  Playing just the D and Eb sounds
    terrible but adding the other two notes makes it sound OK.  In general,
    he seems to try to move his left hand as little as possible, so some of
    the voicings he uses (and the notes he chooses to leave out) look odd
    based on classical theory rules.   
    
    You should also consider what the bassist is doing.  Depending on which
    octave your left hand is in, you may end up fighting with the bass
    line.
    
     

    re: < Note 1469.9 by RAVEN1::KIRKPATRICK >
    
    For the beginning, I wouldn't worry too much about chord inversions.
    If you find the correct chord and you and the other instruments
    agree on the chord and play it at about the same time, it'll sound
    OK even if it isn't the correct inversion.  The key thing is to
    find the correct chord.
    
    You say...
    
    �   When I am listening to a song, I then search on the keyboard 
    �   to find the "matching" note.  Once that is found...
    
    Well, it's good that you can find that "matching" note, a note 
    that sounds good with the chord.  Really, though, every chord
    has at least three "matching" notes: the root, the third, and
    the fifth.  Your current problem is that some of the "matching"
    notes you are finding are not the roots, but either the thirds or
    the fifths.  When you build the chord based on this note as if it
    were the root note, you won't get the correct chord.
    
    Here's my suggestion.  If you find what you think is the "matching" 
    note, then build a major chord or a minor chord based on this note, 
    and if it doesn't sound like the right chord, try to find the other 
    two "matching" notes and building the chords based on those notes.
    In this way, you have a pretty good chance of coming up with the
    correct chord after a little while.

    �   My question is this.....how do I know if a guitar play says 
    �   "F major" whether it is a REAL F major or some type of 
    �   perverted (inverted!) F major.
    
    Doesn't matter, it'll sound OK no matter what inversion of the F
    chord each instrument is playing.  A F Major chords are "real"!
    
    								Marc
    
    P.S.   We're all waiting to answer your first question on demolished
    	   chords, when you come across one!

> My question is this.....how do I know if a guitar play says "F major"
> whether it is a REAL F major or some type of perverted (inverted!)
> F major. 
    
    Actually there's a very effective thing you can do to answer
    that question.  Listen to what the bass guitar on the record is 
    playing.  The bass guitar is usually very easy to pick out because
    it's only playing one note and is easy to sort of "isolate".
    (YOu can even use the bass tone control too to boost it if
    need be).
    
    It's the bass guitar is playing F, chances are using a regular
    F chord will "sound good".   If the bass guitar is playing
    A, chances are it would sound good unless you playing the
    1st inversion of F (A-C-F).
    
    Isolating the bass part is also helpful in figuring out more advance
    chords such as those used in jazz.   I can't always identify something
    like Dm7b5, but my ear sort hears that as a F minor over a D bass.
    
    A lot of jazz chords can be thought of as triads built over a bass:
    Dm7b5, F/G (F major over a G bass), or even a 9th (I tend to think of
    C9 as a Gminor over a C.   You'll also find that with the typical two
    hand "voicings" you do on keyboards, you would end up with the left
    hand playing the bass guitar part, and the right playing the triad
    built on top of it.
    
    For example, a common Cmaj9 voicing would be to play a C with the left
    hand, and a G major with the right hand.
    
> why did the song last
>night sound OK with the piano playing inverted and the guitar player
>seeming to play the regular chord ????
    
    You might want to think of it this way.
    
    The guitar is generally playing only the right hand keyboard part.
    Your left hand is responsible for the bass part.  Pianists (in the
    absence of bass guitar) generally have to cover BOTH the bass part
    (with the left hand) and the rhythm part (with the right hand).
    
    I play guitar and keyboards.  As a guitarist, you generally don't
    do a lot in the way of substituted bass (inversions, and chords
    like F/G, etc.)  The reason is that those chord voicing tend to
    sound kind of "busy" on the guitar because the spacing between
    the notes is is smaller.
    
    For example play a C9 this way:
    
    		C  D  E  F  G  A  Bb  C  D  E  F  G  A  Bb  C  D
    		X     X     X     X      X
    
    And then play it this way:
    
    		C  D  E  F  G  A  Bb  C  D  E  F  G  A  Bb  C  D
    		X           X               X           X      X
    
    		+-- left ---x               +------- right -----+
    		    hand	   		     hand
    
    I think you'll find the second voicing a lot less mushy even
    though both have the same number of notes.
    
    So when a guitarist is so fortunate as to be able to play with
    a bass guitar, he'll usually simplify the chords and let the
    bass take the function of the lower notes.
    
    If the guitarist is a really funky jazzer-typedude, he views this as an
    opportunity to use be able to play more "out" because he only need
    worry about the chord on top of the bass note (Gm instead of C9).
    
    	db