Conference napalm::guitar

    Even if you convert the signal to low impedance, it will still sound
    castrated.  It will sound like Boston sounds in concert, as they go
    direct from their Rockman modules to the board....if that is what you
    like, then do it.

RE < Note 1424.1 by MARKER::BUCKLEY "Where the down boys go" >

	I'm not really sure what I want, and having never heard Boston in 
concert, I can't comment.

	From time to time I read in these notes about how people are using their
GP8's or ME5's or whatnot to run directly to the board.  Have any of you 
actually mapped some road time doing this?  Have you been satisfied with your
sound?

	What would be the best way to get a decent guitar sound into the mains?
Do you mike the speaker cab or do you take a pre-amp out from the amp?  If you
mike the cab, do you cover it with a blanket to isolate the sound to the mains?
Any other tricks?

	Dan

    The only time I ever dig a direct-to-board connection is a strat thru a
    compressor to the board (or a strat thru rockman to the board).  Ultra
    clean sounding and low noise.  For gain things, I don't think direct
    applications work well.  There are certain characteristics associated
    with using a speaker.  The "marshall chunk" is said by many to be a
    product of the speaker cab moreso than the electronics driving it!! You
    can get a variety of tones from close-micing a cabinet...and its nice
    to have the choice of speaker to color your overall tone too.  Your
    guitar sound will definitly take on a more `muscular' feel too it with
    speakers.  For live applications, you can mic in in several ways to get
    what you want.  Some people turn the speakers away from the audience to
    get more punch from the amp.  Some people put plexiglass in front of
    the amp, and mic the indirect reflections off the glass (SRV used to do
    this!) for a sound.  Experimentation is the best key to finding what
    you like/don't like. 

    I made the mistake once (and just once ...) of using the line-out
    on my Marshall and going into the board instead of using a mic.
    The sound man loved it - "look ma !  No feedback !".  But we taped
    the gig and my Marshall sounded like a overdriven Kent !  Sounded
    terrible.  My advice is to use a good mic and a good speaker cab.
    Put a piece of tape over your line-out just in case your soundman
    has any ideas ...
    
    
    
    				Scary

RE < Note 1424.4 by ASAHI::SCARY "Pretty neat username, huh ?" >

	Just a question on your recording...  Did you run the input to the tape 
deck from a line out on the board?  If so, it may not be an accurate 
representation of how your guitar sounded in the hall.

	Just a thought...

	Dan

    
    	I use a direct box at the spkr output of the head with
    	very good results most of the time. I generally mike the
    	spkr cab, but if it picks up too much drums or bass, I'll
    	direct it. I never use the line outs, because some are part
    	of a loop and the loop has to be completed for the amp to
    	work properly. What you get is interaction. Thats what causes
    	your guitar to "sound like a Kent". Interaction can be defeated
    	by transformer isolation, i.e., a direct box.
    	    From what I read here in notes, I've come to the conclusion
    	that direct boxes and line outs are misunderstood and misused.
    	Most line outs are not transformer isolated and this is where
    	the problem starts. That 1/4" line out on the back of your amp
    	is not isolated from the internal circuitry in most cases, so 
    	when the sound guy cranks it up at the board, it sucks your
    	signal dry. Some amps come with a cannon connector output at
    	mic or line level. In most cases, and for all intents and pur-
    	poses, the amp has a built-in direct box. The purpose of most
    	1/4" line outs is to drive another power amp or "slave" as they
    	used to say. Then they got more sophisticated by adding a line
    	in also, so as to create a loop. But in most cases ya gotta
    	complete the loop or ya gonna screw something up.
    
    	Neal
    
    

RE < Note 1424.6 by LEDS::ORSI "Cuz I felt like it, OK?" >

>    	    From what I read here in notes, I've come to the conclusion
>    	that direct boxes and line outs are misunderstood and misused.

	So, do you think you could explain what exactly direct boxes are?  My
understanding is that they are meant to both 'step up' the signal and to 
create a balanced line (3 conductor).  It confuses me to think that you could 
send an amplified signal (from the speaker outs on an amp head) into a direct 
box.  I guess I need more education.  I would have thought the amplified signal
would fry a direct box.  

	I have a Pro-Co 4-in/out passive direct box.  It has a switch on each
channel to choose between instrument and line.  How would this unit be used in
this scenario?

	Dan

    I doubt the passive di box you have can handle a speaker output,
    but there are di boxes that can. 
    
    There are basically two types, but some can do it all. One type
    direct box can handle an instument input (like an acoustic guitar
    pickup), and, in fact, steps the signal up from <100mv up to 1v.
    The output is a cannon connector that can be run virtually any
    distance (through a snake) to the mixing board. Speaker emulators
    are basically direct boxes that can handle a speaker output
    and they color the sound the same way a speaker would. Again,
    the output of these di boxes is a cannon balanced jack. I believe
    Countryman makes a direct box that can handle either. 
    
    Something like the Harry Colbe silent speaker, or the new GT
    speaker emulator are only intended for handling speaker outputs.
    
    My cousin has gone from using a miced up Boogie, to using a
    GK250ml (lined out) to using a GP8.  He claims the GP8 blows
    everything else he has used away, totally, and I have to admit, 
    he sounds great through the GP8. It's totally a matter of 
    opinion, and what tones your music requires. In some cases,
    micing a tube amp is totally unpractical (this is the case
    in his act where he playes guitar and sings while programmed
    synth and drums provide the rest). Use of a preamp only makes
    it much easier to balance his guitar volume with the rest of
    the voices in his act, and allows him to monitor everything
    from one speaker. To him, this outweighs the slight differance
    in tone he could possibly get from a tube amp. 
    
    Of course this is always a matter of personal opinion, and as much
    as I think he sounds great, I personally prefer a tube amp.
    
    Mark
    

Dan,
	You might experiment with this if you amp has an effects loop.

	I take the send signal from my Guitar amps effects loop, run 
	it thru a 1/4" to XLR transformer, and send it to the board thru
	a dedicated compressor/limiter. The amps effects return is unused.
	I set the compresser on a pretty heavy compression setting, to 
	maintain a consistent level, and avoid blasting the PA. I get 
	most, but not exactly the same tone as the amp produces. 
	I believe that your amp design will be a major influence in what
	tone you get. For me, it is acceptable.

	With this set-up, I can use the G-amps master volume to adjust the 
	amps level, without effecting the PA send level at all! That is 
	very useful. I have complete control over my stage monitor kevel 
	(g-amp), and the sound man has complete control over the PA mix. 
	
	I also have a direct out on my amp, which has a level knob. But,
	I've found that to be quite a bit noiser than the effect send,
	and I loose independent control of guitar and PA levels.

	If I wanted to use the effects loop for effects, I suppose that
	it could be split and routed back to the amps effects return.
	A stereo effect could be used for this, and you could get stereo
	seperation between your amp, and the PA. I don't know whether that
	would necessarily be desirable, but it could be avoided if not.

	This seems to be the cleanest, most full proof method I've
	found. Mic'ing a guitar amp can work well in the studio, but
	for a live stage set-up, I avoid it.
Rick

    I've always felt that you loose that "ambience" when you line out...
    I'd use a mike to make the most of that speakers "feeling".
    
    jc

    
    	Re- .7, .8
    	Whether a direct box is passive or active, its output is mic
    	level. That is ~100mV, not line level. Direct boxes have
    	balanced mic level outputs. Cheap ones like the DOD or IMP 2
    	can only accept hi impedance passive inputs from a guitar, bass,
    	or hi imp mic. These a made frome a fairly inexpensive trans-
    	former. Others can accept amp level input as well as instrument
    	input because they have a switch and voltage divider or have a
    	multi-tap transformer inside. Active boxes do the same thing,
    	but are cleaner, and have better bandwidth. I own all 3 types.
    	All 3 have balanced low impedance mic level outputs to match
    	the mixer input. NONE have line level outputs.
    	
    	There are devices which take a variety of audio signals and
    	give you a line level output, they are called mixing boards.
    
    	Neal

        I have also been told that cannon connectors (ie. Radio Shack
        type) are inferior to direct boxes as far as functionality (lifting
        ground) and performance (bandwith, tonality) go. We were informed
        to use direct boxes whenever possible and avoid cannon type
        devices.
    
        Also, I use Rockmodules. The output goes into a direct box and
        to both the stage mixing board and house mixing board. My monitor
        mix contains my vocal and guitar. Guess what else ? No complaints
        from other band members or soundmen about my guitar-amp being
        up too loud. I hear it great and it doesn't sound like BOSTON.
    
        For what it's worth, my opinion only. 
    
    	regards,
    
    	tony

    re: .5
    
    We used a Pioneer tape deck with 2 EV mikes directly over the mixing
    board.  I couldn't believe the tape for a long time because my tine
    was so good on stage.  And I have tried going into the tape deck
    from the line out and it was even more disgusting ...
    
    
    				Scary
                      

    I have a GP-8 and it sounds pretty good through a PA.  I guess it's
    due to the fact that it's such a "processed" sound as opposed to
    the "tube" sound you get from miking a speaker.  Still, I don't
    think you can beat a Celestion and a good mic to faithfully reproduce
    a guitar tone.
    
    
    				Scary
    
    (who runs a GP-8 though a Marshall - the best of both worlds !)
    

    I've used line outs from my GP-8 to record, but having listened to
    it a bunch of times, and made comparisons, I think I'm going to
    go back to using a mic.
    
    Using the line-outs the guitar tone sounds great by itself and
    there's no noise, but in the mix it doesn't seem to sound "real"
    even though I add a little reverb.
    
    It's one of those situations where a track sounds great when the
    solo button is on, but not when put in context.
    
    It makes recording the guitar much more painful (line out from the
    GP-8 was EXTREMELY convenient compared to setting up and testing
    the mic, and then running it through a compressor and then a gate)
    but I'm certainly going to do that most of the time from now on.
    
    	db

      I use my GP-8's line out at band practice. It works well in that
    environment. I can deal with a slight compromise in my sound for
    the convenience. We like to hear the vocals well at band practice
    anyway.
      But live I'm still miking my cabs. I would like to get away 
    from this if I found something that could do a good job. I'm hearing
    good stuff on the H&K Red Box (Cabinetulator G). I asked a sound
    man who does national acts if he's had anyone use them and he told
    me Chuck Berry and Expose used them and they sounded great through
    the fronts. These units accept line level in or speaker in! The
    intent is to duplicate a 4X12 sound. I'd like to hear if a heavier
    act uses them. The box lists for $99. Anyone got one or will I have
    to be the first?

I agree with Buck in .4

I've tried going through my GP-8 directly into the board. The clean 
sounds are phenomenal, but the distortion sounds like sh*t.

I now go from my GP-8 to my Boogie and mike the amp. It sounds much 
better. (I lose the stereo option, though, because I only have one 
amplifier.)

-Dan