Conference napalm::guitar

    I tried out a Champ 12 when they were first introduced to the market.
    The one I tried didn't have the problems you mentioned, but I was
    unimpressed with the overall performance/sound of the amp. I felt
    it fell short of previous Champ models (Champ II to be precise).
    
    I opted to purchase a Marshall model 5205 instead, which offered
    similar features, but sounded much better, IMO.  The 5205 is a
    12 watt, solid state combo amp with 1 ten inch celestion speaker.
    Controls are volume, gain, treble, middle, bass and reverb.
    
    You might want to check one out before you make your final decision.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Steve

    It could be the amps are fine, but the tubes are bad. Good
    tubes are getting hard to come by these days.
    
    My Fender "The Twin" had tube problems from day one, until I
    replaced most of them.
    
    Mark

    I'm now on my third one and this appears to be OK.
    
    Having tried this third Champ 12 I now realize the other two had
    another fault. Namely, the GAIN control was acting exactly like
    a VOLUME control. On this third box, the GAIN control dictates the
    level of distortion and its associated volume control adjusts volume
    as you'd expect.
    
    Now for a real interesting fact. Both the first two I had (the faulty
    ones) were Made in Mexico, this last one is Made in USA!
    
    Richard

    
    Damn!!! I just bought one last week and it is labeld "made in Mexico".
    I haven't really played it yet at home but it sounded nice in the
    store. The GAIN works correctly !!! 
    
      Phil

    I've also got one of theses beasts at home, and it works great.
    It even makes my battered old Shaftesbury sound good! I have a
    question, though.
    
    I use a concoction of tape decks and a mini-mixer as a kind of
    low-budget Portastudio (sound quality is fine for three or four
    generations, but you have to get the mix right as it goes down).
    Is there any way of D-I-ing the amp directly to the mixer, possibly
    cutting out the speaker, so that I can blow my ears off without
    blowing my neighbours doors off?
    
    Bob

    
    Not owning one, this is pure guess...
    
    Use the line out if it has one, and plug something into the headphone
    jack to kill the speaker.  If no line out, try the headphone out
    itself.

    If you're referring to the feedback fault in .0 plugging headphones
    on made no difference.
    
    At a guess I'd say that there was some mechanical vibration in the
    amp (mains hum on transformer?) causing the spring on the reverb
    to vibrate and thus the feedback was being induced mechanically
    in the power amp (as opposed to pre-amp) stage.

    
    Richard

	I bought one too. Made in Mexico. Came with a severly Third Rate
	6L6 installed. I'm sending the tube back to Brea with a love letter.

	Class A on a budget. Sounds real nice. Too bad they used such
	a cheap reverb and mounted it in the chassis.

	Other recent buyers?

    Thought I'd add the last 6 months experience since I wrote the base
    note.
    
    No problems now for 6 months. Only criticism of the amp is the reverb.
    Its got this sort of ringing to it above 1/3 reverb which is really
    annoying. Will replacing any of the valves cure this? If so, anyone
    know which one?
    
    Failing this, I shall probably invest in some sort of echo/reverb/delay
    box (I'll probbaly do this anyway).
    
    Richard

	The ringing is caused by the nature of the beast. The reverb is
	a cheezy (one spring?) unit mounted directly to the electronics
	chassis. The only hope here is to use an outboard reverb or replace
	the inboard one.

	As soon as the year waranty is up I'm ripping the reverb out and 
	mounting RCA jacks in the back of the chassis and getting an 
	accutronics 3 spring reverb. At that time I'll probably also mount 
	jacks for the footswitch and the speaker.


	Charlie_B_who_likes_3_tube_wonders....

      Hi,
    
    I just got a used Champ 12 for my birthday.  I don't have a great deal
    of experience with tube amps.  My main amp for years was a Peavey
    Pacer.  I like the sound quality of the champ a lot.  I live in an
    apartment and I need a small amp that can sing.  All of the other
    small 'pratice' amps I looked at had grundgy sound when turned up and
    the lead channels were, forget it.  The Champ has a nice singing
    quality to it.  One question, where can you get nuts and washers for
    Fender jack-plates channel 1 is missing them?
    
    Joe

    
    
    
    	Joe, wouldn't it be nice if one could buy a bag of 10?  I've never
    found � inch phone jack harware sold separately, except at
    Stewart-MacDonald where they sell them 100 at a time...  I'm pretty
    sure Radio Shack doesn't, cos I've looked there personally.   Whenever
    I find a junk radio or stereo, I always remove the � inch hardware a
    stick it in my junk drawer.  If you can't find what you're looking for,
    I'll share (or maybe we'll both find a place to buy small amounts of
    washers and nuts)
    
    
    Regards,
    Steve

    Hmm..  Radio Snack *used* to carry that stuff.  I know, I used to work
    there.  (Can't believe I admitted that in public.  Well, I was young and
    foolish at the time, and it was only for about a year...  :-))

    They used to carry them in the little plastic bags of stuff like crimp
    connectors and wire nuts.  They _have_ changed their stock considerably
    in the last 10 years, so I could be all wet.

    -- Sam

    Not to go down a rathole here, but I unscrewed the mounting nuts from
    my Pacer and they wouldn't fix.  It seems the Fender jacks are fatter
    or the Peavey jacks are skinnier.  Oh well, I'm going to rob my old
    Sears amp, yeah I've even gut one of those, and see if that helps. 
    Other than this small problem.  I love the amp.  The best thing is the
    nice low volume sound.  I can practice without headphones fairly late.
    
    Joe

    I just bought a Champ 12.
    
    I like the sound, but..............   I did not realize in the shop that
    it has a hum....
    
    As soon as it is heated up, about 20 seconds, there is a very noticable
    hum, even with all volumes and gains turned down.
    
    As soon as I start playing, I do not hear it, but it is anoying in a
    quite environment.
    
    Is this a bug or is this a feature?
    
    Regards
    

    re .16
    
    Most definitely a feature! Sure, you wanna know that the amp is working
    without having to look at the pilot light all the time don't you. Yeah,
    see that's that pilot *tone*. Now while I'm at it, I should let you
    know that I got this used car for sale...its loaded with
    *features*...driven only by my grandmother.... 
    
    Seriously, the amp isn't likely to be the cause of that problem. Could
    be a noisy ac line (dimmer switches), you maight have a Radio Shack
    guitar cord or equivalent, or you axe might not be adequately
    sheilded. If you get the hum without the guitar and cord plugged in
    then you know its either the line or the amp. If you plug the amp into
    a different ac source and its quiet, you know its the line.
    
    "sakman" 

    Do you get the hum with no instrument plugged in?  If so, then I would 
    guess that there's a problem with the amp.  Are you located near 
    another player with a similar amp, so you can A-B the amps?
    
    My Fender Princeton Reverb is very quiet; my Deluxe Reverb is a tad
    noisier, but still not objectionable.
    
    

    
    Even the it's a new amp, it could be the tubes.  When I retubed my
    Deluxe Reverb, it got a lot quieter.
    
    Jim
    

    Thanks for all the feedback so far.
    
    What I do not understand is that the hum is there, without anything
    plugged into the the amp and all volumes closed. 
    
    Could that still be the tubes? I was more leaning towards a faulty
     diode or capacitor that would somehow let the 50 HZ (yes 50, I live
     in Europe) through.
    
    Jean-Paul

    I've seen hum and other noise problems with all the volumes closed,
    and the cause has usually been bad output tubes.  Closing the volume
    controls keeps any signal from going through the amp, but if the
    noise is coming from inside the tubes themselves, it makes sense
    that volume controls would have no effect.

    
    HI, back again. 2.5 years of Champ usage now with no trouble
    whatsoever. Ended up buying an Allesis Microverb III a year ago to
    overcome the poor reverb. The hum has always been on mine but surely
    this is the down side of a valve (sorry tube for you US types) amp? In
    the old days all valve hifi stuff hummed. I have even got CD remasters
    of 50s and 60s stuff where you can actually hear mains hum in the
    quiter parts. This was presumably masked by rumble etc on LPs and 45s.
    
    I have a number of questions about the Champ still though...
    
    1) Why does the overdrive and reverb control affect BOTH channels? Why
    would anyone want overdrive on BOTH channels at once? This is really
    annoying because if you are using the 2nd input for rhythm then the lead
    can't use overdrive. Seems really stupid to me.
    
    2) WHY hasn't the tape input got an adjustable level control? Seems the
    only way you can control the level of a tape input is from the tape
    itself. Really stupid in my view.
    
    Richard

1 - the two inputs are not independent channels. You pay big bucks
	to get that.

2 - why charge the customer for the expense of a volume control
	when most tape decks have them already?

    
    I guess the problem is I have only come into electric guitars (as
    opposed to acoustic)in the last three years. I would expect to be able
    to take my tape output from the normal output you'd use for
    hifi/recording and thus capitalise on the better quality sound than
    from a speaker output.
    
    In short my experience of amps, keyboards and other electronic musical
    kit is very negative. It appears my expectations have been clouded by
    the facilities etc that hifi systems offer.I guess what I'm saying is
    that the whole area of amplified music seems, at times, to be a
    rip-off.
    
    Richard
    
    

    
    Amplified music a ripoff?  Compared to what?  Are you talking real high
    fidelity gear, or are you talk Sears hifi?  Spend some time in the
    AUDIO conference, and then come back here and tell us about exotic
    cables that cost more than most peoples' components...
    
    

    This reminds me of a conversation I had once with a non-musician
    friend.  

    I was showing off my brand-y new Marshall JCM900 amp head, had it
    sitting there on the "Hi-gain" channel with the gain cranked...

    He: "What's that hissing sound?  Is something wrong with it?"
    Me: "No, they all do that"
    He: "What? Do they use cheap components in 'em or something?  You'd
         think for 700 dollars they could make something that sounds clean."
    Me: "...I suppose, but it wouldn't sound right clean."
    He: "I can go to any store and pick up virtually any stereo for
         $100 and it won't hiss like that!"
    Me: "That's because it doesn't have a high gain tube preamp sitting in 
         front of it!"
    He: "TUBES??  O-my-gawwwwd!  Why don't they use up to date solid state
         technology???  No *wonder* it doesn't work well!"
    Me: "Some companies do, but I don't think solid state guitar amps don't 
         sound good"
    He: "They have to sound better then that"
    Me: "You're missing the point, they don't distort right"
    He: "DISTORTION????  It DISTORTS your signal???"

    ...the conversation went downhill from there.

    Bottom line was that he couldn't be convinced that an amp should not be
    absolutely crystal clean and couldn't seem to understand why anyone
    would want to distort their guitar signal.  (and this was not someone
    into classical music or other some other type where clean guitars
    prevail, he just couldn't comprehend where that sound came from)  He
    thought I'd been robbed to pay that much for an amp that made a hissing
    sound when you turned it up.

    The real problem (to me) is that you can't get a natural sound from a
    perfectly clean electric guitar signal, it doesn't sound right.  Some
    people think they want a perfectly clean sound to sound like an
    acoustic guitar, but I don't think it sounds acoustic.  The signal you
    get from an electric pickup is different then what comes off a real
    acoustic instrument and needs to have something happen to it before it 
    sounds very natural.  

    JMO, naturally.

    Greg

	These discussion infuriate me too, Greg.  The issue of course is 
	creating (or producing) versus recreating (or reproducing) sound.

	Try this next time...

	He:  What's that *hissing*?
	
	You:  F*ck off!

	8^)

RE: Pat

Wagagagagaaa...

:)

    re: Pat
    
    That one got me laughing out loud!  Good one!
    8^)

	Learned that response from a buddy of mine who rides a Harley.
	He told me that Harley owners use that response because they 
	get tired of defending their bikes from the flack they get from 
	Jap(anese) bikers.  

    INCOMING !

    Not from me, I'm a big Harley fan (Cooper is the ricer of this bunch)
    8^)
    
    Glh...you should have played an M-1000 for that dude!
    

    What makes me laugh is that his $100 stereo "colors" the signal too. 
    If you want pure amplification and signal integrity, you have to spend
    $thousands$ that would be equivalent to studio/PA gear.
    
    He's confusing his applications of amps.  The real amps that he would
    want are made by Crown, Boulder, Bryston, etc.  These amps typcially do
    not color the sound and are very pure signal wise.  That's why studios
    use these brands most.
    
    Mike

    High gain and tubes don't equal hiss automaticaly.  There's plenty of
    super high end tube hi-fi gear out there and hiss aint part of the
    equation.  The preamplification of a magnetic or moving coil cartridge
    is a pretty high-gain application. The whole situation of noise in
    guitar amplification is a sore point with me, too.  First you crank the
    f**k out of the gain then you run through various signal processors
    which tend to *increase* the hiss levels than into a noise gate to
    clean it up and an aural eciter to restore the lost high
    end...?????!!!!!?????
    
    On the other hand if guitars came with *low impedance pickups* and
    were designed for lower noise overall (heck, most guitars off the rack
    aren't even shielded!!!) then all that noise would go away.  
    
    When I turn my bass amp on full blast with no input, is quiet as a
    mouse.  I have to stick my ear up against the grille to hear the hiss
    to see if it's on.  99% of the hiss I hear when playing is actually
    coming from the *instrument*.  
    
    						Brian

    
    jc ain't the only rocket pilot here - I do half my commuting on my
    Hurricane.
    
    Brian and Mike hit it right on the head for me.  My Les-Paul-Quattro-QSC
    audio chain is dead quiet until I turn on the DSP128+...
    

    
    Well, back again. 3.5 years and zero problems with my Champ 12. Only
    problem is I can't understand why I bought it or why anyone would buy
    it in the first place! Let me explain....
    
    I've recently started to do some gigs in small halls in a group and the
    Champ 12 is plainly inadequate with regard power. I'm currently using a
    Peavey 80 watt amp for these events. Now this Peavey sells for
    *significantly* less than my Fender Champ 12 here in the UK.
    
    Now having said this, the sound of the Champ is superb. The Peavey
    cannot touch it for tone and the Champ's overdrive is lovely and warm
    (if a bit unpredictable), much better than my Boss ME-6 can generate
    through the Peavey. So, the conclusion I've come to is that the Champ
    is a superb quality low power amp. But why would anyone pay all that
    money for something so low powered. On the face of it, its nothing more
    than a practice amp. Talking to a guy in a music shop about part
    exchanging the Champ for something more powerful he was saying "no
    problem, I can't sell enough of them".
    
    Or, is its real niche being miked up to a suitable PA? Is that the real
    attraction of this amp? 
    
    Richard
    
    Regards,
    Richard

    RICHARD,
    
    You're right about the tonality.... I use a Special 130 Peavey and I
    have found serious problems "warming" my sounds through it, but connect
    in a 4x12 or a 4x10 to the spare speaker socket and it screams... it is
    a bit of a metal type combination but I find it works equally well for
    the rock/pop stuff I am doing with the band I play with...
    
    Why not invest in something like a Valve State Marshall...
    
    Bob