Conference napalm::guitar

    
    For those who just dropped in, see note 104 also.
    
    For Tom in particular:
    
    From the MK IV to the MK VI, Peavey went from two channel
    (footswitchable) operation to single channel.  They added an onboard
    companded chorus (operating only on high end signal).  Also they
    now have a "sustain" control (some sort of compressor?) and added
    a few more bands of graphic EQ, but dropped the parametric midrange
    EQ.
    
    Peavey bass amps tend to be *very* reliable. Union has a MK VIII
    in stock now.  Used MK IVs and MK IIIs (very similar but older) often
    show up for about $250.
    
    For $600 you should look at Gallien Kreuger 400RB, the AMP BH-420,
    SWR SM-180 or SM-220 (think those are the right numbers), Ampeg
    SVT series (not sure of model numbers here) and the Fender Bass 400.  
    
    The AMP is 400 watts mono, the Fender 200/200 biamp, the others
    200 watts or so, all into 4 ohm loads.  Except for Ampeg, these
    are all smaller/lighter than the Peaveys and rack-mountable.

    A few noters here have these heads and might be willing to demo
    them for you.  

    						Brian

        	
    >Lastly, are there any other heads in the ~$600 range that I should
    >also look at? 

    Well, I saw this Marshall Jubille 300 bass head (w/1x15 cab) at this
    store up here called the Minor Chord, and the unit was going for like 7
    something (760.00 ??).  I'm not a bassist, but I heard a dude playing
    through it and it had the most awesome bass tone I've heard!!  Powerful,
    punchy, bright but with lots of tone.  I was really impressed (esp. for
    Marshall)! 

    Re. Your Sunn head. Didn't you just buy this used through the
    notes file a year or so ago. Why are you looking to upgrade?
    I seem to recall seeing that you had the speaker cabinet for sale
    a while back. Did the Sunn turn out to be unreliable, or just not 
    flexible enough?
    
    A popular piece of gear among bass players is the Ashley preamp,
    (the model number escapes me). For $189, it is a single space
    instrument preamp which works well with Bass, keyboards, etc. It
    has a 6 band parametric eq, efx loop, and other important features.
    You could easily pair this up with a power amp for under $600.
    
    The advantage to having a separate preamp/power amp is that when
    you need to record, you can go straight from the preamp to the
    recording console or tape deck, shut the power amp down completely,
    and do all your monitoring through headphones. Must powered amp
    heads have line outputs on them, but they do not allow you to
    defeat the power amp. This is very important in studio settings
    where a bass amp/speaker will bleed into all the microphones.
    There is really no reason for dragging a rig with speakers into
    a studio, when you have a preamp.
    
    Mark Jacques
    
    

    The SWR SM-400 can be had for about $750 if you shop around.  It
    drives 400 watts into an 8 ohm load or 2 x 200 watts into 4 ohm loads.
    The SM-220 is not much less $$$ (maybe $650) and half the power.
    These amps have tube pre-amps and solid state power sections; they
    will allow you to run balanced or unbalanced line outs without using
    the power section at all.  The whole shebang fits into two rack spaces
    at < 20 lbs.
    
    In a recent GP, Victor Bailey (former Weather Report bassist) claims
    to love his Marshall FET bass head.  I think the model # is 3540;
    it drives 2 x 200 watts into 4 ohm loads.  There's also a half power
    (1 x 200 into 4 ohms) version.
    
    /rick

    
    Re: .3 (Sunn)
    
    	I'm not really happy with the sound I'm getting from the Sunn.
    It works fine, but is older technology and doesn't have too many 
    features. I'd also like a bit more power as well. Anybody want to
    buy a bass head? (wink,wink,nudge,nudge :-)).
    
    Re: .3 (Power Amps)
    
    	I've never considered buying a separate preamp/power amp setup. I'm
    open to this possibility, but am pretty ignorant of this market. Could
    yout give me an idea of the brands of preamps and power amps that could
    fit into my budget? Does anyone have any literature? 
    
    -Tom
    

    Re: .5
    
    You will be hard pressed to get a preamp/poweramp setup for under $600
    that will outdo heads like the SWR, AMP and G-K.  These companies
    actually targeted the same market as the separates by putting onboard
    goodies like parametric EQ, compressor/limiters, aural exciters,
    crossovers, etc. in the front end, then adding in some hefty solid
    state power amps. 
    
    Some preamp brands:
    
    Ashley BP-41, Peavey ProBass 1000, Metaltronix Perfect Connection, Blue
    Tube (rack version).  The SWR preamp is available without a power amp
    stage from Groove Tubes as the GT Bass Preamp (SWR also makes the GT
    Guitar Preamp).  The AMP preamp from the BH-420 used to be available as
    a separate piece but it's no longer on their price list; it's possible
    some dealers still have them. 

    Power amps:
    
    Dozens of brands out there, but Peavey and Crown are probably the most
    common.

    If you shop around,you can probably find the peavey MKIV with a
    2-10"cabinet powered cabinet (same power amp but only a gain control)
    for about 600 clams....that's what mine cost if memory serves me
    correctly.I've never had any trouble with mine. Why sell the sunn,
    I believe that already has a crossover too.....try to get a hi-
    end cab. and amp or something like I mentioned above and see if
    that blows yer skirt up??!!!!!
    good luck!
    -Bill
    

    
    	Here's the latest word. I picked up a new peavey PRObass 1000 preamp
    this week. I intend on using the power amp input of my SUNN for the 
    time being, until I decide on what brand of power amp I want and 
    hwo much power I want to go with. 
    
    	I looked at a PV M-3000 power amp which was like the MK IV bass
    head with regard to pwer specs (210W @ 4ohm, 300w @2ohm). I was  mono
    power amp. Truthfully, hooked up to the probass, it sounded really
    good. I also looked at the PV CS-800 (400W @4ohm/channel, stereo). 
    
    	I'd really like to find a mono pwer amp that is rated at something
    like 400w into 4ohms. PV doesn't make one. So can soneone suggest 
    a brand? Related to this, If I buy a stereo power amp, is there any
    problem running just one channel of the amp? I have a feeling that 
    this would't be a problem, but I want to be sure. I might go stereo,
    so that later I have the flexibility to Bi-Amp if I choose. 
    
    -Tom
    

    RE: running a stereo power amp in mono.
    
    I've used a Carver PM-175 power amp, which is 200W per channel stereo.
    On the back is a mono bridge switch, which lets you run the unit as a
    ?500W? mono amp. I imagine that other stereo power amps will have a
    similar feature.
    
    FWIW
    
    Nick

RE < Note 1382.8 by VOLT::GALLO "Kitty's Back" >

	If you're looking at pv stuff, you could try out the CS400.  In bridged 
mode, I would guess that it would put out 400 Watts into 4 ohms.  Then, later on
you'd have a stereo amp for expansion...

	Dan

    
    I saw a Marshall Integrated (rackmountable) 200WT bass head and 1x15
    cab yesterday for $449. (or something like that).  Not bad a rig
    at all.
     

    
    
    	Re: Bridge mode
    
    		Almost all of the stereo power amps that are 4ohm in 
    stereo , bridge to 8ohm output. I'm not sure what happens if you
    try to one of them bridged into 4ohm. Smoke 'n' Flames might be the 
    result, though.:-).
    
    -Tom
    
    

    
    Carvin, Crown and Peavey amps will run into 2 ohms, so should bridge to
    4 ohms.  
        
    The M3000 plus your preamp gives you effectively a MKVI rig, with
    a Peavey DECA424 you get essentially a MegaBass setup.

    I don't think you'll be too happy with a CS-800, they weigh about
    75 lbs!!!!

    
    > The M3000 plus your preamp gives you effectively a MKVI rig.
    
    	I could have saveda few bucks by just going with the MKIV or
    MKVI head, but the preamp has some features like a headphone jack 
    and a direct output, which the MKIV or MK VI does not have. 
    
    	A question to bassists using ~200W (mono) for their rigs. 
    Do you feel that this is enough power? I think I'm tripping over 
    myself with the wattage issu How much bass power is really 
    enough? How's that for a subjective question?? :-)
    
    -TOm
    

>    A question to bassists using ~200W (mono) for their rigs. 
>    Do you feel that this is enough power? I think I'm tripping over 
>    myself with the wattage issu How much bass power is really 
>    enough? How's that for a subjective question?? :-)

    It's really all in what you need for *your* situation.  Actually 50
    watts into a good efficient speaker will do just fine for a lot of
    situations, *but* having more power gives you one valuable thing:
    dynamic headroom. 
    
    Ever watched someone using a Peavey bass amp with their DDT
    compression?  They have an LED which lights when the peak limiting
    kicks in.  With some players it'a almost every note!!!  Bass is
    a very percussive instrument and if you are playing without compression
    higher power can give you a "fuller" sound, that is, when you hit
    the strings harder, the amp can really respond instead of just
    clipping.  
    
    Personally, I found this very important and so bought what I would call
    an overpowered head (400 watts) in a compact package so I would never
    have to worry about being underpowered *ever* (OK, maybe if I'm playing
    the Centrum with the Nuge) but without the chiropractor bills that go
    along with traditional high power solutions like the SVT.  
    
    However, if you do use compression or limiting, you can get much more
    *apparent* volume out of a smaller amp.  A lot of bassists use
    compression rather regularly; for myself, I prefer to be able to
    control my dynamics and find compressor/limiters to be a hassle. If 200
    watts with the 2-15" cabinet that you have isn't loud enough, I don't
    know what to tell you.  I don't think the cabinet can actually handle
    much more power.  You should see about borrowing a good rack-mount
    compressor and trying it with your setup and see if it helps you get a
    better sound. 
            
    One thing that has amazed me from the beginning of your search for amps
    is that you have been having volume problems in *rehearsals* where you
    have no need to play very loudly. Personally, I find most rock bands
    nowadays play way too loud. I like my music loud but things have
    reached a point where the average bar band plays through more powerful
    gear than the Beatles ever dreamed of.  Perhaps you should spend some
    time tracking down the root of why you feel you need more volume.
    Remember, once you get to the point where you are playing through a
    large sound system, the bass amp is working only as a monitor system
    anyway.   
    
    							Brian
    					     Not_deaf_yet_but_working_on_it

>    One thing that has amazed me from the beginning of your search for amps
>    is that you have been having volume problems in *rehearsals* where you
>    have no need to play very loudly. Personally, I find most rock bands
>    nowadays play way too loud. 

Hmmmm...why do I get the feeling this is gonna come back to me tomorrow night 
at practice???  

8^)

Alan S.

    Tom...
    
    	Brian's right as the bass player in a band I played with,used one
    of those small GK self enclosed amp's(model number escapes me)and he
    was lined out to the sound system. The amp was used for stage
    monitoring. Bob Heil use to maintain that what ever the guitarist was
    using for wattage,the bass needed double. 
    	One other item which has not been discussed is speakers and there
    cabinets. Are you useing front loaded ported enclosure ,a folded horn cab?
     And how many speakers?  
    
    								Rick
    

    
    Re-.13
    		The CS800 weighs 54 lbs according to the Peavey
    		manual. The CS400 is 50 lbs.
    

    
    
    re: .17 
    	
    	I'm using a front loaded 2-15 cab. I'm pretty sure that my cab
    (a Peavey) is just basically a box with a coupla speakers in it. It
    does have a port on the front, but it't basically just a hole.
    
    re: DI to the PA
    
    	I'd love to have the bass DI'ed to the pa, but that's not 
    an option at this time.
    
    -Tom
    

    Well, I guess what you didn't want to hear was a lot of "it depends..."
    kind of advice, so here are some admittedly subjective observations
    from my own experience.

    First there's my rule of thumb which says that it takes twice as many
    solid state watts as tube watts to produce the equivalent amount of
    usable volume.  For example, a 100W tube amp will sound about as loud
    as a 200W solid state amp.  Note that this seems to work for guitar as
    well as bass.  I'm not sure why this is true, and granted it's a subjective
    impression.  Perhaps it's due to extra headroom you get when tubes amps
    begin to saturate as opposed to solid state amps clipping.

    I've done a lot of gigs with either a 50W tube head (Fender Bassman)
    or 100W solid state.  The speaker configurations were usually 2 15s,
    sometimes 2 12s.  These rigs were fine for small and medium club gigs,
    and a bit underpowered for large dances.  I've used 200W solid state
    heads with 2 15s and these seemed like plenty for any place I played.
    Note that I've never done any large outdoor gigs, so I don't know if
    200W would be enough there.  Nowadays, I would expect any big outdoor
    gig to have a sound system anyway.

    The styles of music I've played with these setups (on bass, of course)
    were rock, funk, and jazz fusion; the bands were mostly 5 or 6 pieces,
    sometimes with two drummers.  The volumes were not ear shattering, but
    they were loud.

    Hope this helps

   /rick

    
    
    	The search is over!! I picked up a demo model of a Peavey
    MAX Bass amp at Daddy's "garage sale" this weekend. It was priced
    at an incredible $229. The only drawback is that this head is
    *heavy*. I'm not sure exactly how much it weighs, but it's 
    a lot. Thanks to alll who answered my questions and helped me 
    understand what equipment is available and what all those
    features do. The MAX Bass features are as follows:
    
    
    	o Single channel preamp with hi and lo (-6db) inputs
    	o Pre and Post gain controls
    	o 8 Band Eq (rotary controls)
    	o Built in variable crossover
    	o Pre & Post EQ FX loops
    	o High Range FX loop 
    	o Low Range FX loop
    	o High,Low and Full Range Preamp outputs
    	o Hi-Z and Lo-Z line outputs
    	o 2 400W RMS power amps (w/DDT compression into 4ohm)
    
    		Note: the amp is switch selectable for either 
    		      full range or biamp mode. In biamp mode,
    		      the high output of the crossover goes to 
    		      one of the power amps and the low output 
       		      goes to the other. In full range mode, both
    		      power amps get the exact same signal. 
    
    

      Actually I'm a guitar player, but the bass player in my band picked
    up a new amp and I tried to find a topic to mention this new monster.
    Our bass player, Dave, has been using a SVT rig for years and only
    recently decided moving the thing is a pain in the a**. I agree!
    Luckily he's in good cahoots with a local store and they let him
    use some amps (on the job!) for a few weekends to check them out.
      The hands down winner in sound quality/portability/and bang for
    the buck was the new Peavey Data Bass (Base?). It's a single 15"
    combo amp with ports under the bottom feet. The power inside is
    actually a Deca 528 power amp according to the store. This is the
    most amazing bass amp I've heard for it's size. 450 watts, actually
    clean and punchy. No DDT compression anywhere. Built in is a graphic
    EQ, effects loop, and XLR Direct out. Not too many frills, just a nice  
    amp. He bought it!