Conference napalm::guitar

    
    	What's a TC2290?

    	re. 0 This is a serious rack system!  How long have you been
    	using it? It's obviously not sitting in some basement studio! 
    
        
        re. 1 TC Electronic's Effects Processor for digital delay,chorusing
    	etc. Midi contolled..... Expensive  but nice!


                                          "if I were a rich man...lalal..."

    Hmmmmm,
    
    Personally, I'd can the SPX900...I just hate the sound of that thing.
    The Mesa-quad preamp is ok...I donno, there is so much to be said
    for the Kitty Hawk Quattro preamp too.
    
    I think the ultimate guitar rig would be:
    
    o	Kitty Hawk Quattro Preamp
    o	Marshall M9000 preamp
    o	ADA MP-1 (primarily for clean stuff)
    
    all wired into a switching unit feeding into:
    
    o 	The Mesa Simul-class power amp
    
    plus all the mixers/effects you listed.  I'd add a Quadraverb to
    that list, as well as a good power strip w/a LED voltage meter and
    built in surge protection.  Maybe throw in a MIDIable EQ for room
    changes, etc.

    TRY A Fender twin reverb with an ibanez tube screamer and a 
    Fender strat-keep it simple :^}

    I nice small, affordable rack system that would be simple to 
    operate would consist of a Mesa Boogie Studio preamp, a 
    midiverbII, and a compressor/sustainer. The only rack-mount
    compressor/sustainer that I am familiar with is the SRD
    rockmodule. 
    
    COST	Studio preamp   $499
    		MidiverbII      $250
    		Compressor	$100
                                ----
    				$849
    
    
    If you desire you could strap this to a power amp, and speakers,
    or go straight into a PA/recording mixer. What more does a guitarist
    really need?
    
    Mark
       
    

re: .2  -- I have been using it for one year in the configuration listed 
           although I have used the Boogies for about two years.  It is funny
	   you mentioned basement studio because that is what I have -- a 16
	   track.  I do use it to gig with as well.

re: .3  -- I agree with the MIDIable EQ idea; I have been contemplating the
	   new RANE or possibly the TC.  As for the SPX900 vs the Quadraverb,
           well the SPX900 has a lot better reverb and the compressor is pretty
	   hip as well.  The Quadraverb is cool, but it did not integrate as 
	   well with the gear already in the rack.  And finally, about the QUAD
	   preamp vs. the others you mentioned: With the QUAD, you do not need
	   three or more amplifiers -- it handles all tones quite deftly.  
	   Although, if I were to go with separate amplifiers for sound 
	   flexibility I would only add perhaps a Fender Twin or Roland JC120
	   for clean tones; but the Boogie handles the clean really well and the
	   distortion is fantastic. Finally, I have a surge suppressor, I just
	   did not mention it; I agree that it is rather necessary when 
	   playing the circuit.

Looks liek this is going to be my system shortly:

Rviera TBR-1 60w stereo guitar amp
1 2-12" speaker cab
Alesis quadraverb
Alesis midiverb (If I need it)
Roland SDE-1000 digital delay (If I need it)

and of course all my guitars....

dbii

    .0 
    
    Since you are using a splitter/mixer, I have a question for you
    which is unrelated to guitar rigs.
    
    I have a Peavey 701R mixer, which is stereo (has sum, subA, subB,
    and mon outputs. I also have a Rane ME15 stereo eq. Someone
    suggested I pan vocals to one bus, and guitars to the other,
    so I could eq the vocals and guitars separately. Sounds like
    a good idea. Heres the catch...My power amp is strictly stereo,
    and is not strappable. If I plug the eq outputs into the amp
    directly, all the vocals come through the left speaker, and all the
    guitar comes through the right (or vice versa). If I got a splitter
    mixer, could I plug the two eq outputs into it, and get two mono
    signals to feed the left and right channels of my power amp. For
    PA use, this would probably work out best. 
    
    If a splitter/mixer is the right way to go, how much are the Rane
    units selling for?
    
    thanks,
    
    Mark Jacques
    
    

    
    RE: .6
    
    Hmm, maybe if you play with the Boggie QUAD enuff, you can get the
    tones you want.  Me?  I've fooled with it a few times.  I always have
    trouble with every boogie I play through...ie, to get the lead sound I
    want, I never get the clean sound I want, and vice versa.  On the QUAD,
    the channel switching didn't *thrill* me, and I didn't get a very good
    clean sound out of it (although I'm sure it was probably my ignorance,
    or something like that).  INteresting noe your though the Verb on
    the SPX900 was better than the QR...I though the exact opposite!
    
    FWIW...
    

    Oh yeah, my rig had the three preamps in it cuz I fell they all do
    their thing the best.  The KH Quattro has the best lead sound from a
    preamp I've heard, and the Marshall preamp has that killer 2-5K crunch
    you really can't get from any other amp, and the MP-1 has that sweet
    clean sound with compression that I like.  Again, the Boggie is a great
    preamp too, and probably does a great job at theabove with a little
    fooling around. 

        TOP to BOTTOM
    
    
    
    
    	-- 	Furman PL8 plus    	--
    	-- 	Roland GP-8		--	( with FC-100 but a
    	--  	ART SGE			--	TC2290 might replace
    	--	 (airspace)		--	the GP-8 )
    	--  Kitty Hawk Quattro preamp   --
    	--Kitty Hawk MIDI patch bayette	--
    	--	Carvin       		--
    
    
    The case is a Mesa Boogie SUS-4 rack (w/wheels)
    
    I'm looking at the TC2290 since a lot of the features in the GP-8
    are already in the SGE. The TC 0144 foot controller is one of the
    best around but I'd say the Roland FC-100 is a good runner-up. I
    wish a company like ART would make a killer foot controller. What
    I would like to see is a unit connected to a rack mount MIDI thru
    box. I would also prefer a unit that is powered from the rack unit
    (like the Roland). 
    

    What is the purpose of having more than one signal processor (i.e.,
    ART SGE, Roland GP8) in a rack system, since they're very similar?
    
    Curious_Mike

    RE: .4
    
    Way to go!  I too like, the simple approach. IMHO, here it goes:
    
    1. for rock: Les Paul Std. thru a 50 watt Marshall, and turn it
    up!
    
    2. for blues: ES-335 thru a Twin Reverb
    
    Stevo

      re: .11
    
      The only purpose of the two processors is basically that I already
    had the GP-8 when I purchased the SGE. I need the FC-100 foot controller
    that I bought with the Roland to run the rig. Therefor I can't sell
    the roland (since the FC-100 is dedicated to working with Roland
    products) until I get another decent foot controller. There's the
    Lake Butler Midi Mitigator that allows you to put the patch name
    into the onto a display in the pedal. Kitty Hawk has a Foot Controller
    that connects to a standard XLR cable at the foot box and has a
    Midi cable adapter on the other end ( it lists for $529). As I
    mentioned before the TC Electronics TC0144 serial foot controller
    is the cats A** but it only works with the TC2290 and it ain't cheap.
    Both the SGE and the GP-8 have their strong points, but either one
    can cover the effect spectrum quite well. I think the TC2290 is
    a better match for working with the SGE. It has features (and specs)
    that the other units wish they had. 
      Maybe you'll be seeing the GP-8/FC-100 in note 2 so    

    I guess we all have our own ideas...
    
    Mines gonna be pretty low-pudget, but here it is:
    
    
    ART SGE			Signal processor 
    Metaltronix MP1000		Power amp
    Digitech DSP128		Signal processor (good funny stuff)
    Ibanez DE1032		Stereo EQ
    Roland SDE1000		DDL (Rack space eliminator - good lights)
    Chandler Power supply/cond. Lights
    BBE 401			Sonic Maximizer
   
    Controlled via Peavy intelligent midi controller.
    
    Gee, thats seven boxes...  Guess I'll have to buy a new rack.
    The one I have now is only 6 spaces... 
    
    jc

re: 11  -- The TC2290 does power the foot controller (TC0144) if you use a 
	   stereo cable.  Also, you eluded to a foot controller with a MIDI
	   OUT (?) -- take a look at the MIDI Mitigator.

re: 10  -- What I do with the Boogie is use Rhythm 1 as ultra-clean, Rhythm 2
	   as crunch (Brown Marshall tone), Lead 1 (which is circuited with
	   Rhythm 1 as Punchy - Mid-range crunch, and Lead 2 as the heavy
	   sustain, singing lead -- a lot of harmonic response.

	   Your solution may work just as GREAT however, with a little patience
	   with the Boogie, I am sure you'd be very happy and save some serious
	   green.  I would like to hear a tape of some of your tone ideas; maybe
	   I could experiment with getting that sound and send you the settings.

re:  9  -- I really like some of the things the Quadraverb can do (I still own
	   one) but I just feel that if you listen to an SPX900 in Reverb mode
	   without anything else on a vocal or clean guitar (to get the full
	   effect without twenty other F/X running) it is beautiful.  In all
	   honesty and fairness, the Quadraverb has a patch call "SMOOTH GATE"
	   which is one of the most musically useful patches I have heard; the
	   machine is no slouch by any means.  

	   If you MIDI up the QUAD through the Octopus and have the TC send 
	   patch changes to it you may like the switching on the QUAD.  I know
	   really did not care for the Boogie pedal much.

re:  8  -- Yes, that will work, however, the SM26 may be a bit overkill.  The
	   SM26 has 6 input/output to 2 output/input -- it is really versatile.
	   It lists for around $350 or $400; I got them for $240 each.

Scott

re: 16  -- Lights are important.  The H3000 and the TC2290 have great lights 8^)

    
    	Re-.8
    	Mark, when recording, using the sub outs to the eq
    	into your deck makes sense, but it's a bit of overkill
    	to eq the vocals and instruments separately when doing
    	sound reinforcement, as well as more expensive because 
    	you'd need a line mixer to do what you want to do.
    	     For sound reinforcement, you can pan vocals left, 
    	instruments right, use the sum output to one channel
    	of the eq, to the power amp which you can "strap" by
    	jumping from on channel to the other for dual mono so
    	you get the same thing from both speakers. Then use the
    	other eq channel for a couple of monitors if you have
    	another power amp or use one channel of the power amp
    	you have. 
    	    You're board has the patching capability to insert
    	gear from SubA out to SubA AUX in and same for SubB, but
    	when I've used it in that configuration, I just created
    	a hard-wired feedback loop that not only sounded bad, but
    	didn't do good things to my board. This is because when
    	Peavey designed the patching, they left all the functions
    	intact when a plug is inserted, instead of insert/disable
    	internal loop. Yamaha uses this method of insert/disable
    	in some of their patches.
    
    	Neal
    

>    Mines gonna be pretty low-budget, but here it is:
>    
>    
>    ART SGE			Signal processor 
>    Metaltronix MP1000		Power amp
>    Digitech DSP128		Signal processor (good funny stuff)
>    Ibanez DE1032		Stereo EQ
>    Roland SDE1000		DDL (Rack space eliminator - good lights)
>    Chandler Power supply/cond. Lights
>    BBE 401			Sonic Maximizer
>   
>    Controlled via Peavy intelligent midi controller.

    Low budget??? Compared to what??!!!??? How much you have left over
    for speakers??  8^)  8^)  8^)  8^)
    

    RE: .18
    
    Yes, lights are VERY important...  'Specially if your liek me and
    can't play so good....At least I can wow 'em with cool lights...
    
    ;^)
    
    RE: .19
    
    Gee, thats about what I had...Two marshalls, (2) 4x12's, Sampson
    wireless, EQ, Sonic Maximizer...  
    
    RE: .21
    
    Yeah, low budget...  Serious... You can have that for about $1500-1700
    if you shop around.  That ain't so bad...  Just mortgage the wife,
    kids and pets.     ;^)

    jc

    re: .22  replying to .19
    
    But that dude was playing thru Jubilee marshalls, which sound totally
    awesome and incredible!!!

    Yeah, yeah, yeah...  I know...I know...
    
    ;^)

    How about a little twist to this topic?  Say you won your state's
    lottery or received some sort of inheritance, what would you change in your
    ULTIMATE rig?  What would your ULTIMATE rig look like then ($$$
    no object)?
    
    Mike

    If money was no object, I wouldn't restrict myself to one ultimate
    rig...
    
    I'd have tons of stuff then go pick whatever I wanted for the
    particular time and hire people to move it around for me!  8^)
    
    Greg                                                          

    	Has anyone tried the Mesa Boogie 50/50? A 50 watt stereo tube
    power amp for $795....

If money were no object my rig would probably look like this:

	o	2 TC2290 with 32 seconds sampling each
	o	Eventide H-3000
	o	TC2228 Programmable Graphic EQ
	o	Lexicon 480L
	o	BBE Sonic Maximizer
	o	3 Rane SM26 Splitter/Mixer

	o	Mesa/Boogie Quad Preamp
	o	Mesa/Boogie Stereo Simul-Class 295
	o	4 4x12 EVM Mesa/Boogie Enclosures

I would also have an exact duplicate as a backup.

Scott

    I'd have a 20 foot tall rack with EVERYTHING in it...And a huge
    patch bay for mix and match...
    
    ;^)

    
      The rack system is finally complete. I've removed some redundant
    gear and made it as functional as possible without stripping it
    down too much. This is the final config:
    
    GTR>------> Kitty Hawk Quattro preamp >--------
    			|<- (control)             | <-(signal)
       * >----> Kitty Hawk MIDI patch bayette     |
	      /	          			  /    
    	     /	Korg DT-1 Pro Tuner <============<
    	    |					  \	 
MIDI to SGE- >  ART SGE multieffector <-----------/
    		    |      |
   		    V	   V (stereo in to amp)
     		Metaltronix SP1000 
                 stereo power amp >==============> stereo/mono speakers
   			 	
  	* = Kitty Hawk MIDI foot controller
   
      The Korg DT-1 has a mute button so tuning can be done quietly.
    All the patch bayette is doing is switching between the Quattro's
    four channels via MIDI then passing program changes to the SGE.
    It is capable of switching six effects in and out thru its own 
    loops as well as switching between different amps.
    

    re: -1
    
    Sounds bitchin'!

    How's it sound?  Looks like you'd be hard pressed to require anything
    else except maybe a delay unit with a larger delay (> 8 secs.).
    
    Mike

    Definately a awesome setup!
    

    Yeah, yeah !
    
    jc

    Now that .30 has been entered, would this be a recommended template for
    say the "Starter Rack System" note?
    
    Guitar>------> preamp >--------
    	             ^            | <-(signal)
    foot   >---->----|            |
    controller |                  |   
    	      /	    Tuner <======<-
    	     |			  |
MIDI synch   ->  multieffect <-----
                  processor
    		    |      |
   		    V	   V 
                 stereo power amp >==============> stereo/mono speakers

    That sounds good Mike, but I'd put the tuner before the preamp.
    
    Basically, my setup right now looks like:
    
    Guitar--->Preamp--->effects_unit--->amp 
                ^          ^
                |          |
                ----Midi----
    
    All this is running at instrument level for now until I can afford to
    get a power amp, then I'll change it to line level.  I'm really
    enjoying this setup.
    
    Greg

    RE -.1
       You got the idea. Of course the tuner is optional, but handy.
    The biggest variable in cost is gonna be the preamp and effects.
    Most power amps for this type of set-up are running around $500.
    Another way to cut some costs may be to consider the Roland GS-6
    (I pretty sure that's it) guitar system that is a preamp with some
    built in effects. The overdrive/distortion is great for a solid
    state unit. Also the Rockman XPR preamp/effects that should sell
    for around $600 at discount. , maybe less. If you are not really
    big on effects these units could get the price of a rack down
    a few hundred.
       I consider my set-up (.30) to be a great combination of quality
    sounds for a reasonable price. Altogether the rack ran around $2400.
    I've been using it live for three weeks and it's everything it's
    cracked up to be! Looks good as well. BTW, the rack sits on top
    of a Kitty Hawk KH-112 speaker cab with a celestion GH100 12".
    It ran $200. The rack itself is a modified speaker cab with the
    speaker mounting removed and rails installed. So both cabinets look
    identical and stack nice.
   
    

              
    All this talk of power amps, preamps etc.. is new to me.
                                                            
    I currently run my guitar into my effects, and then into a 100 Watt 
    amp, which then feeds a 4x2 cab and two 2x12 speakers. Also, I run
    a mic into the same amp and the output goes into the 2 2x12 speakers
    (not into the 4x12 cab) (nb, the mic is for backing vocals only).
                                              
    So, what is the difference between a poweramp, preamp compared to
    a regular amp stack ? Excuse the ignorance !!
                                          
    Thanks in advance !   
    -Tony	                          

    Tony, I think your amp or head is the same things except these guys are
    talking rack mount in this topic.  
    
    A guitar preamp is directly connected to the guitar (your head or amp
    may have a preamp built in) and can be used to bring the line level up
    to a "working voltage" that the power amp can work with.  A power amp
    wouldn't be as efficient working directly with the mV ratings coming
    off the pickups.
    
    Guitar preamps usually have some built-in effects (at least today) too.
    
    That is how I understand it,
    Mike

re: .39

>   A guitar preamp is directly connected to the guitar (your head or amp
>   may have a preamp built in) and can be used to bring the line level up
>   to a "working voltage" that the power amp can work with.  

The "working voltage" is called line level, this is the input level for
a power amp.  The level that your guitar produces is called instrument level.
That's what most stomp box effects use and is the input level for a power amp.

Basically, Tony, what you have with a "normal" amp is a preamp and a power amp
in one package.  It's only recently become "in vogue" to split them, which 
gives you a more modular setup that can be more flexable and individual (and
expensive).

Greg

    Ah, many thanks guys.

    Re: .40
    
>Basically, Tony, what you have with a "normal" amp is a preamp and a power amp
>in one package.  It's only recently become "in vogue" to split them, which 
>gives you a more modular setup that can be more flexable and individual (and
>expensive).
    
    The Hi-Fi world has been doing this for years.  Sorry to say, there are
    still some that prefer integrated receivers.  
    
    It is expensive in both worlds!
    
    Mike

      In response to .32,.35,.36 that started w/me (.30):
    
      Add a longer delay to the system. Yeah, if I was abiding strictly
    by this topic and going for the ultimate rig. I'm leaning more toward
    the ultimate affordable set up. You are absolutely right, if I came
    across more spare change (expendable income the economists call
    it) I would add the TC2290 Dynamic Digital Delay. It does everything
    I can't get out of the SGE, longer delays (expandable w/options
    up to 32 seconds!) and of course the dynamic feature that only sends
    delayed signals when the instrument isn't sending audio. It's sort
    of like a reverse noise gate type of operation. That way it never
    sounds cluttered while you are playing and when you stop the echo's
    kick in. Sounds great eh? Why doesn't everybody have one of these
    great toys?
      Over TWO BIG ones- that's why. add the foot controller you're
    talking closer to three. That's a lot of dough for gtr efx. I can
    see why studios have them though. Teh TC2290 has been mentioned
    earlier in this topic.
      A more affordable alternative could be the ART Delay Systems V
    and VII that are supposed to be real transparent. What you really
    have to weigh is how many times you are going to use a delay over
    500 msec., which is what the SGE is limited to. Not to mention that
    the rack could be getting big enough at this time to require wheels!
      re .36 I don't have any problem with the tuner where it is. I
    agree that it wouldn't hurt to have it before the preamp but since
    the tuner doesn't add anything to the signal and there is no audible
    difference with it in or out, I'll leave it.

    re: .43
    
    I don't know about the big Korg unit, but most tuners like an
    instrument level signal rather then a line level... I also figured that
    if the preamp is adding a bunch of gain (and usually a lot of
    harmonics), then it might make it hard for the tuner to latch onto the
    correct tone depending on what setting you have the preamp in.
    
    Greg

    I thought instrument and line were the same ??
    
    
    Fill me in ?  Are we talking apples and apples here ?
    
    jc (Who runs from a dry output into his Boss TU12)

    buyout money would be one way to obtain the ULTIMATE rig! :-)

    
    re -.1
    
    EXACTLY what I've been thinking!! :^)
    
    Ralph
    
    

    Buyout money AND a new job to contiue the 'ol income stream.  I can see
    it now:
    
    "I may not have a job, but I've got the Killer Rig from Hell; and yes,
     I AM cool"!
    
    |)  Steve D.

    
    
    	Soooo... instead of buying that apartment building and getting a
    job as a milkman (person), I could get a cool cut and dye job, a 54
    regular leather suit, and get in the "biz"....
    
    
    Steve

Yeah, but you'd have to be so *serious* though...

;)

    
    
    
    	Oh, but I woooooould be serious!!  Wicked serious....  

    Too bad external hiring is frozen.  You could quit and go somewhere
    else to get rehired and then build the ULTIMATE Rig.
    
    many :-)

    
      My idea of the ULTIMATE rig (level 8):
    
    	
    				 -top-
                             - vent panel -
    	   Hughes & Kettner ACCESS MIDI preamp/FX patchbay
        		Korg DT-1 Pro Tuner
    	      Rocktron Intellifex (FX loop C of ACCESS)
    			     - vent panel -
    		Metaltronix SP-100 100 wpc power amp
    			     RM  power strip
    
    
    	foot controller: still a Kitty Hawk, but *maybe*  eventually a 
    			 H & K ACCESS Stageboard will do the job.
    
    	Somewhat simple rack arrangement - premium sound!
    
    							-B()()M-

The ultimate rig, in my eyes.

Boogie MIDI preamp
ADA Mp1
Access MIDI Preamp
Marshall Preamp
Bradshaw switching system
MIDI Mixer
Patchbayette
Rack mounted 8 track cassette
Eventide H3000 Ultra Harmonizer
TC 2290 (Loaded)
TC 2228 MIDI EQ
BBE Sonic Maximizer
(1) Furman PL Plus powerstrip/condition
(1) Furman 117_something  spike remover
(2) Boogie Simulclass power amp 295 (tube)
(1) SP1000
(2) Marshall 2210's (or equiv.) JCM800 heads
(12) Marshall 70wt Celestion loaded 4x12's wired for 16ohms

All loaded into a Boogie ATA shockmounted rack(s) with casters.

Simple enough.  :)
jc (Dreamin' of *awhile* Xmas)

    My Ultimate guitar rig:
    
    
    	100wt Marshall plexi   			120wt Park plexi
    
    	4x12 cab with greebacks                 4x12 with greebacks
    
    
    Two amps cranked and strapped together, with a Les Paul Black Beauty
    plugged straight in.

    
    For those of us that don't mind defunct companies:
    
    	Metaltronix M1000     w/two fugly 4 X 12's
        Metaltronix Blues '59 w/two sugly 4 X 12's
    
        ...and a bag of marshmallows for when the amps "warm up"!
    
    	
        
       ...actually the guitarist in the Bogeymen, Tim Harrington, had his
       M100 re-worked and has been using it around here.
    
    	
    						-B()()M-						

    I think the Blues 50 with it's baby blue face plate was much less fugly
    than the big, gold M-1000 bugger!!
    
    The new Lee Jackson Ampeg's are much more cosmetically
    appealing...hmmm, wonder why?  8^)

    My ultimate rig:
    
    * 50 Caliber Mesa Boogie tube combo
    * My Les Paul Deluxe
    * one patch cord
    * two picks (spare)
    * a local friendly blues club on jam night
    * 5 lbs of buffalow wings
    
    Bulldawg.....8^)
    

    Hmm...
    
    I guess my ultimate guitar rig would have the following:
    
    1) Marshall JCM900 MkIII MV (half stack) for sheer scream.
    2) Marshall JTM45 (or other similar older model, or possibly a JCM900 Dual
    Reverb, as the A channel has that voicing) for killer crunch.
    3) Fender blackface Twin for that warm creamy clean sound.
    
    Add a nice chorus and delay, there are many that would work fine, and
    whatever appropriate hardware it takes to route my signal to whichever
    amp I wanted without coloring the sound.
    
    Now that's "ultimate"...  A more realistic and practical rig for me
    would be a Marshall JCM900 Dual Reverb, a Fender Bassman, and an A/B
    box.  Got one of these things now...  8^)
    
    Greg