Conference napalm::guitar

    
    	Well done!!!  I'd love to do the same but we have this drummer.....
    need I say more?
    
    Cheers
    
    		Pete

Actually, The Duo I'm in often gets repeat business because we often play
quiet enough for people to hold conversations while they dance or sit at the
tables. My hearing is quite good for someone whos been playing electric guitar
since 1964.

The places that I play tend to want lower to medium volume levels & that's
not that hard to do (My drummer has buttons, LED's and an LCD display, so
when I adjust the volume level, it never argues & just plays what I tell it
to). I occasionally play outdoors (requires quite a bit more power) & 
sometimes (maybe twice a year) play at a place so large that the volume
level has to come up, but not often. I guess it's easier to control since
there are less people involved. 

I play a Fender Twin reverb & I find that it works just fine for lower volumes,
even tho it only goes to 10 (not 12 as some supercharged amps do) & a solid
body guitar with Humbuckers on it. Everything else goes thru the P.A. & that
has a master volume on it.

							Jens

    The band I played in years ago lost many a repeat customer due
    to volume. The main problem was that we didn't have a monitor
    system, and no one could really tell how loud they were in 
    contrast to everyone else, and it became a contest to see who
    could be heard. I wanted us to take some money (borrow some
    if necessary) and buy at least a bare-bones monitor system, 
    but the self appointed leader of the band felt we didn't need
    it, and that was that. There is no way I would ever work without
    a monitor system again.
    
    One time we played a very large club with no monitor system, and
    no soundman. It was an acoustic nightmare. I had bent over backwards
    and pulled strings to get us an audition in the place (Cathay
    Islands, Leominster, Ma. for anyone familiar with the area).
    They booked us for an off night, and told us that if we sounded
    good, they would have us back. Needless to say, we never did land
    the gig, and I felt quite embarrassed they we made such a poor
    showing.
    
    Mark
    
    
    
    
    

    re .0
    
    How well were you able to hear the guitars at different areas
    of the stage? I'm a big advocate of low stage volumes, but I often
    have problems making it so all the band members can hear each
    other. Our monitors are for vocals only. Especially with one 
    12" speaker, I've found that if you're not directly in line with 
    it, you have trouble hearing. 
    
    Of course, this isn't a problem if you don't move around much.
    
    -Tom

    
    Re: .4
    
    I thought everything sounded OK except my bass which was loud enough
    but not really *distinct*, i.e. it was kind of murky.  I did talk to
    one of the guitar players last night and he said he had trouble hearing
    himself and I told him that it was probably half psychological, as I
    could hear him fine and some people at the far end of the room, which
    was packed with people commented on much *better* they could hear him.
    Other people said they could make out the bass fine. You figure it. 
    
    For vocal monitors, we all use mike-stand mounted ones, so hearing
    vocals is no big deal since they are aimed right at you when you
    are on mike.
    
    I should add that the room was quite small, maybe ten by twenty five,
    so it's not like we need lots of volume to fill up the space. We are
    set up in a corner so we get reflections off the walls helping spread
    the sound; I agree that little amps like Champs tend to be pretty poor
    at projecting sound. We will continue to use more normal amplification
    when we play other clubs, though I may go back to wearing earplugs!!!! 

	When you mention that people can't hear themselves, it's a real
	problem. I've found that when other people can hear me, But I
	can't make out what I'm doing that well, I try to put my amplifier
	on a chair or a strong case to get it nearer to my ears. When
	I can't hear myself, but I can hear other people, I really can't
	hear myself & I have to adjust things. I make enough mistakes
	when I can tell what things sound like, I really need the sound
	or I screw up even worse.

							Jens

    On the directionality problem: We have three guitarists in our group,
    and all of us use small amps cranked out when we practice (ok, ok, so I
    use a 100 watt amp, but with the output level cranked way down). The
    point is that we're each using a single 10" - 12" speaker for sound
    generation. In this setup, I've found that it is critical for each of
    us to have the speaker of their own amp literally aimed right at their
    ear. If I get just a little out of the line of my speaker I have
    difficulty hearing myself, and the tendency then is to crank it up.
    Consequently, we all place our amps on tables, and stand directly in
    front of them. We also stand in a line facing the same direction,
    because we used to have problems when we faced each other, because we
    would each hear the other guy louder than we could hear ourselves.
    
    I guess I'd recommend to Brian one of two things: a) Don't stack up the
    amps in one place. Distribute them around and keep them all up high so
    each player can hear his/her own the best. b) Mike all of the amps
    through the pa. I hate miking amps myself, but at least you would hear
    everything coming through the monitors in balance.
    
    - Ram
    

       Coming from a mixers point of view, it's much easier to control
    the PA volume when the stage volume is low. You can really notice
    the difference, the singer doesn't waste thier voice by the middle
    of the set. It gets tough when you turn the mikes off for the amps
    and still get the same volume.(o o) (just kidding!)
                                    l
                                    0

    One drawback, as far as getting the amps up high goes, is that you
    can get bleed-through to the vocal mic's.  I like the monitors set
    up with mostly vocals, but a little bit of the guitars has to be
    there so you can hear yourself (thanks Rick C. ;^).  We used to
    run just vocals through the monitors, but that led to a tendency
    to crank the guitar amps in order to hear ourselves on stage (also,
    if there's a lot of separation between two guitar players you can't
    tell how closely you're in tune).
    
    Bass and drums are usually fine without monitors, at least at the
    clubs we've played.
    
    joe.

    I'm a firm believer in a low stage volume even though I love to
    practice at painful db's.  From a sound man's viewpoint it's a must.
    To me, the ideal set up for a small club would be to have small
    amps (50w or less) running through the PA (mic's, no line-outs)
    and back through the vocal monitors, provided the monitors can produce
    clear vocals in addition to the guitars.  This way everyone can
    hear the band just like the crowd can.
    
    Another problem with "keeping it down" is being visually too loud.
    Here's an example.  My last band played a gig at a small club last
    year that was a beach/top-40 place but was wanting to compete in
    the rock/metal business too, so we got booked as this place's first
    heavy band.  We all have big stage gear, 2 cabs per guitarist. 
    Our PA consisted of 6 cabinets, each with a 15" and a horn, powered
    by 1 300wpc stereo amp.  But the area in which we had to set up
    was packed like sardines.  We did our soundcheck with the amps at
    a whimper with only 1 cab per guitarist hooked up, too loud.  So when
    we played that night we left the levels as they were because there
    were some people there to soak up the sound.  The crowd loved it but
    the management said (later) we were too loud.  I think the look of all 
    that gear made us look louder than we actually were.
    
    Here's a trick I used one time at a club.  The owner said we were
    too loud.  I was using a Marshall 100w half stack, but the head
    didn't work, it was just there for decoration.  I was *really* using
    a Peavey to power the cab, even though it wasd tucked back behind some 
    covers.  So I invited the guy up on stage, showed him the master
    volume on the Marshall and told him to cut it down himself.  He
    took it from 9 to about 3 and was all smiles.  I hit a chord, same
    volume as before and he said it was fine .... sheesh ...
                                  
    
    				Scary
    
               (who plays too loud using headphones ...)

    
    
    	I'd like to address the idea of this note's title, beyond
    discussing it in *just* the context of playing on stage. There's
    a "new" awareness (supposedly...) available today concerning your
    ears and loud volume levels.
    
    	Sure, they give points in "car stereo contests" for the number
    of dbs that can be attained in the driver seat. As if that's a good
    thing or something someone would "want" for some reason. The truth
    is, you can *fry* your ears by exposing them to high levels of
    acoustic energy.
    
    	There's a reason why the band was asked to "turn down"...
    
    	Personally, I find even band practice to be fatiguing at best
    on my ears. They ring afterward, which is the physiological reaction
    to them being stressed to the point of physical damage. When you
    hear your ears ring after a loud concert or whatever, you've very
    likely just damaged them some. This damage *is* cumulative, BTW.
    
    	For this reason, I've done extensive work in trying to combat
    this fatigue associated with "band practice". It was easy to realize
    that the acoustic drumset must be seperated from one's ears either
    by distance or by an acoustic filter of some sort - like a brick wall. 
    An acoustic drumset is capable of over 100 db of spl, when you're 
    standing right next to it. Wanna hear what 130 db sounds like? Stick 
    your head into the bass drum while it's being played hard...
    
    	These spls are capable of hearing damage. In our ignorance,
    we tend to try to "match" the average sound level of an acoustic
    drumset with the bass guitar amp, the lead guitar amp, the keyboard
    amp and the vocal monitors - otherwise "we cant hear ourselves"...Or
    at least *somebody* cant. Pack this all into a "practice space"
    and you got a lot of sound energy for the naked ear to be exposed
    to.
    
    	I spose you can always wear "earplugs"...But those change "how
    is sounds" significantly, in addition to muffing out the dbs.
    
    	Since the drumset is *acoustic*, it really cant be "turned down"
    in and of itself, something else has to manage the sound it's capable
    of. The first thing that comes to mind is a drum booth, which I
    have constructed in my own practice space for the purpose of stress
    relief. With the drums on the other side of the wall (and an appropriate
    window so you can see the player) the drummer can smash all 7 cymbals
    as hard as he want's and it doesnt hurt my ears anymore. Sounds
    simple enough...
    
    	But here's the real beauty of the idea - since the drummer is
    much less loud now, (without any compensation on his part) all the 
    other instrument's can be much less loud too. You no longer have to
    try to achieve "live mix" sound levels, just to practice. Or play.
    
    	There's a catch, however. The mix has to be done *somehow*,
    since it's no longer really happening "in the air". This mix has
    to be heard by each player in the band too somehow. One idea that
    I try to make use of is to use headphones to monitor the mix, and
    a board to do the mix. This has several advantages and disadvantages.
    A definate advantage is that you can listen at whatever level you
    want, which can be much less loud than "live". A disadvantage is
    that players who *must* have both their pre and post up to 10 to
    "get their sound" or whatever end up in the booth with the drums...
    
    	Dynamic range is a little understood aspect of sound, in terms
    of it's psychological effects on people. Things that have a high
    dynamic range (the 7 cymbals...) are startling to most people and
    can eventually cause fatigue. Things that have a low dynamic range
    (the air conditioner fan) can actually sound louder than they are,
    yet our mind's have this uncanny ability to tune them out so we
    can concentrate if need be.
    
    	Compressing the dynamic range of something will tend to reduce
    the fatigue associated with it. If you're considering the mix of
    the whole band, compressing it's dynamic range actually makes it
    more listenable. I've found this to be true by my own experience,
    both in my home studio and in doing live sound. It's no wonder that
    compressors are a standard component of nearly _all_ pro sound setups,
    studio gear and radio stations. Nearly all material broadcast over
    the FM band is compressed in dynamic range, even further than it
    is already during the studio recording process.
    
    	This is all so the guy slinging burgers at McDonalds can hear
    Eddie Money on his boom box over the sound of the exhaust fans...
    
    	When I have a band practice at my place, there is no fatigue
    associated with doing so. The noisy drums are isolated from my ears
    by the wall and the pads on my headphones. They are miked and mixed
    in with all the other signals (vocal, guitar, bass, etc.) and then
    the whole is compressed via DBX. This final signal goes to the Great
    Single Volume Control, which I can adjust to whatever loudness level
    I feel people can contend with. Future plans are to offer individual
    levels for each person monitoring with headphones. 
    
    	The result is what I consider (and others have told me) a very
    nice "space" to perform, practice or play around within. Certainly much
    better than some of the "roasts for the ears" I've been to...
    
    	Joe Jas
    
                                                       
    

	As a side note, My experiance says that when you are mixing down
	on a multi-track tape deck, If it doesn't sound good a low
	volume, the mix is bad. If you have to crank it up before it 
	sounds ok, then there are major problems with the way that it
	was mixed. The same applies to anything that I've been involved
	with Live. It takes some work to deal with these changes, since
	most of us old timers are used to blasting whenever we had the
	opporitunity (I used to do this alot in the late 60's & early
	70's). 
							Jens

    
    Back to the base note:
    
    After three weeks of low-volume bliss, I am definitely sold on the
    concept.  There's not a lot of precedent for this type of playing
    in modern music except maybe Jonathan Richman, but I think it adds
    to the music we do.  A lot of it is old stuff (40s, 50s, 60s) and
    the gear in those days tended to be small.  Many younger players
    would blanch at what used to be stage gear in the "old" days.  After
    all, the Beatles played *Shea Stadium* without *monitors*.
    
    It also makes a good argument for vintage amps.  In an earlier note
    about old amps, Rick Calcagni and I had a difference of opinion about
    the usefulness of old amps in gigging situations nowadays. I have to
    reverse my position and I'll go on record as saying that I doubt we
    could get as good a sound with small amps of recent vintage.  Yes, our
    guitarist uses a toy Fender amp from Japan, but that's primarily to
    bolster the beautiful sound of his tweed Champ, and I can't think of
    any little bass amps that have the warmth of my little 20 year old
    Traynor. 

    But Brian, I just bought a 400w bass head :-(

I have to throw my nod of agreement in with all the previous replies. 
My latest band is only a trio with sequenced background music. It's my 
first band without a "live" drummer or bass player, and our stage 
volume is lower than I've ever played before. I love being able to 
hear everything nice and clearly, and the singers appreciate that they 
can keep their voices strong all night!

(But, I sure miss playing with a whole band and being able to jam out 
on tunes whenever we want! But, I don't miss playing four nights and 
having to split the money seven ways!)

-Dan

    
    Just caught Ornette Coleman and his band Prime Time on the tube
    last night.  Interesting stage setup.
    
    The band has two guitars, two basses, electronic drums (with acoustic
    bass and snare) and tablas (Indian hand drums) plus Ornette on alto
    sax, trumpet and violin.
    
    Amplification for both guitars was a GK 250ML, both bassists used
    GK 200MBs.  All amps were mounted on mike stands and angled up as
    spot monitors.  The drummer and tabla player used headphones, the
    others all had a monitor wedge in front of them, plus two large
    wedges were mounted off center stage.
    
    Each player had his own monitor mixer!!!

    Let me add a few words to this volume discussion. I play Lead in
    a 4 (sometimes 5) piece band in the UK. We play 60's,70's covers
    in a few local pubs. Last week we played at a pub we hadn't played
    in for a while and were asked to keep the volume down a bit cos
    the landlord's parents live upstairs. We had a really good gig.
    I could hear what everyone else was playing and we seemed to have
    a much better balance. Point is though the pub wasn't full, and
    so there wasn't a lot of background noise, the place we more regularly
    play in is generally a noisier place altogether so we have to play
    louder to be heard. We don't have a very sophisticated set-up i.e.
    1 PA mixer and each instrument separately amplified so what would
    people recommend as the best way of achieving the 'Right' level?
    
    Richard Bell
    

    Thought I'd slot this in here.
    
    Last week, I drove 15 miles through thick fog to a small club outside
    town to see that great bastion of the late-60s/early-70s blues-rock
    fad, the Groundhogs. Great gig, embarassingly small audience, and the
    band played songs from all phases of their career, including Split
    (Parts 1 and 2), Cherry Red, Mistreated, Garden and a host of Muddy
    Waters, Howlin' Wolf and Jimmy Reed covers. performed in typically
    sonic, Hendrixian style.
    
    Aaanyway, the upshot of it all was that they played at a surprisingly
    low volume! True, the club was pretty small, but Tony McPhee has made
    his name through imaginative use of feedback, distortion and the like -
    I'd never have expected them to play at toned-down volume, any more
    than the Jimi Hendrix Experience! The result was great; if anything, it
    made the quality of the songs stand out even more. Plenty there for the
    guitar pyrotechnics nutcases too; I've never seen a stage quite so
    littered with footpedals...wah-wah, fuzz, chorus...the whole works.
    
    Incidentally, Tony McPhee was playing an Ibanez (and slide guitar on a
    Strat) through the most battered Session amp I've ever seen! He had
    another guitarist helping out with many of the solos, a mystery that 
    became clear at the end of the evening when he explained that an
    accident had temporarily deprived him of the use of two fingers of his
    left hand. I for one would never have noticed - one in the eye for all
    those megastars who immediately cancel a date at the sign of a slight
    headache.
    
    Another triumph for the low volume lobby!
    
    Dom