Conference napalm::guitar

    Many of the the manufacturers are coming out with multiple
    offerings for guitar, or general purpose. The ones that
    come to mind include ART, Yamaha, Digitech, and Roland.
    All offer general purpose multieffects processors which
    can be used on practically anything, but do no include
    things like overdrive, distortion, or compression. They
    also offer units geared to guitar which do include distortion,
    overdrive, and compression. 
    
    Digitech has the DSP128, the GSP128, and one other unit. The
    GSP128 is desinged for guitar. 
    
    Yamaha has also got 3 new offerings, one of which is intended
    for guitar. 
    
    The only one that hasn't caught on is Alesis. The offer the
    quadroverb, which is a great multieffects unit, but doesn't 
    have distortion, overdrive or compression.
    
    One thing that the ART units offer, which is rarely found on
    multieffects units is an actual harmonizer. I believe it
    is included in both the multiverb, and the SGE. It allows
    one harmony note which can be anywhere from one octave below
    to one octave above the original note.
    
    Mark
    

    The SGE does include a real harmonizer, as well as an exciter, and
    chor, delay, reverb, and panning effects in stereo!  The SGE does
    9 effects at once!  Kind of overkill, but that along with a 1 space
    power amp would make a nice, versitile, small setup!

      The S.G.E. looks like it's worth checking out. I haven't got a
    price yet. Besides I've already laid out the big bucks for the GP-8.
    I really like the GP-8 but they could have done without the distortion
    and left the overdrive and that would cover just about any need
    in that area ( since the overdrive has the "turbo" parameter ). In
    its place it would have been nice to have an exciter or harmonizer.
    Apparently ART looked into what guitarists REALLY want in a new
    signal processor. I think all these new units should have noise
    reduction built in or at least a noise gate.
      Another area that these new guitar oriented multi-effects are
    covering seem to be eliminating the need for a pre-amp. I'm been
    using the GP-8's line-outs ( not the regular outputs I use into
    my amp ) into my multi-track and power amps with good results. 
      I've had a chance to play with the new Digitech GSP-5 with its
    digitally simulated tube distortion. It's definitly better than
    most distortions but doesn't quite replace my tube amp when it's
    glowing. It's interesting to note that the GSP-5 is specified as
    a pre-amp/processor.
      Has anyone out there played the S.G.E.? 

    According to the current Guitar Player (the one with the big article on
    multieffects processors) the SGE lists for $650 (I may correct this,
    but I know for sure the first digit was a 6).  At this price, with 9
    simultaneous effects, it appears to be an excellent deal!  Especially
    since it's the only multi-effects unit on the market right now that has
    an exciter (exciters excite me).  I thought it had a very usable
    selection of effects too!  (which I really can't remember right now...) 
    
    I'll grab the article and post them here a little later on.
    
    I haven't heard one yet, but my fav store is supposed to be getting one
    in the next couple of weeks or so and I'll have opportunity to try it
    out then.  It'll be good, because they also have a GP-8, a GSP-5, a
    DSP-128+, and an ME-5 to which I can compare it.  (my wallet is
    starting to sweat already!)
    
    Greg                       

      Looks like ART is going after guitar players in a big way. Along
    with the SGE there's something else coming this summer to a music
    store near you. I should classify this as promo/hype/vaporware
    until this unit actually appears. Heck, I've at least seen the SGE
    in a picture.      
      Next up to bat - The ART Power Plant. Essentially a solid state
    pre-amp with channel switching. It's a single rack space unit that
    has been under development for years. The hype is that it's been
    used on ten albums already and there's only one unit , a prototype,
    in existance. Hype #2 - It'll make tubes obsolete ! I've heard that
    before too. Given the quality of ART's other gear we'll have to
    wait and see if this measures up.
      Patience is a pain of a virtue when it comes to new gear!
      

    List Price: $649.00

    Effects/processes: Reverb, delay/echo/doubling/tapped delay,
    chorusing/flanging, harmonizing, compressor/limiter, expander, 3-band
    EQ/dynamic envelope-following filter, distortion, noise gate, harmonic
    exciter, panner

    Number of simultaneous: 9
    Number of factory presets: 100
    Total memory locations: 200
    Number of storeable locations for user-defined programs: 200

    Front panel (L-R): 32 segment LED display, 3-digit LED display, keypad
    mode switch, preset select increment and decrement switches, bypass
    switch, switches 0 through 9 (also labeled in order, recall/enter, add
    effect, delete effect, title edit, MIDI/utility, store, select left
    arrow, select right arrow, value down arrow, value up arrow), 4-LED
    level display, input level slider, dry/effect mix slider, output level
    slider

    Rear panel (L-R): Stereo inputs, stereo outputs, footswitch jack, MIDI
    in, MIDI out, MIDI thru

    Power Supply: built-in


    	The SGE Studio Super Effector offers a lot of flexibility.  It lets
    you call up nine simultaneous  effects, and it features both stereo
    outputs and stereo inputs. It has three flavors of grit (turbo-drive,
    overdrive and distortion), as well as a two-octave pitch transposer, a
    peak limiter, an expander, and a harmonic exciter.  Multi-tapped delay
    and arpeggiated flanging are cool inclusions. Program changes can be
    effected, and individual parameters of each effect can be tweaked at
    any time via MIDI. In all, there are 24 Reverb algorithms, plus an
    envelope-following filter for auto-wah effects.  Although there's no
    speaker emulator, there are speaker emulating EQ curves programmed into
    the presets.

    Yep, and Music Emporium has them for $499 !
    
    I want one...
    
    jc

    
    Yo Coop, don't get confused....there were TWO versions of the SGE!
    One not so fancy....the newer version does the 9 fx.
    
    Music Emporium usually seems to have the effects that are out of date,
    discontinued.  I originall bought a hush-II unit from them, to find out
    when I opened the package that it was the original HUSH-II unit...5
    years old, and discontinued!  Needless to say it was returned! 

    Thanks for the input dude...  I didn't realize that there was
    a previous model.  I'll check the catolog and put a quote in here
    tonight.  I like what I'm hearing about this unit !!
    
    I've also ben told that Music Emporium is noted for sending the
    wrong equipment late, damaged etc...
    
    jc

    ART is actually confusing everyone right now because they have 4 
    devices which look the same - multiverb, multiverb II, multiverb EXT
    and sge. The sge is a great unit but I wouldn't recommend using it
    as your only preamp - the EQ section isn't strong enough for it. 
    One thing that's cool about all of ART's stuff is that it's software
    updateable and they actually support this feature. Reliability on the
    units is very high. Also, the sge, like the multiverb is *EASY* to
    use/program. The only weak link is the PT. It works but only sounds
    so-so ( It's the same as in the multiverb so you can go hear it
    anywhere ). 
    
    There's no "previous' model ie: guitar oriented w/ distortion, etc.
    
    The powerplant is pretty cool - It's actually not an ART piece at
    all. A mad scientist in Conn. has been working on it since about
    '80/81 and he talked Jim Bonus at ART into marketing it. It's
    extremely simple, not even 2 channel, just a bypass. ( No fx loop
    extra inputs, etc.) Buck (designer) actually used this on various
    projects with Hammer & Dimeola ( I know it was used on Al's
    Scenario album). I played it at the winter NAMM with a junky
    Gretsch and it DID sound great. $299. retail.......

    >The sge is a great unit but I wouldn't recommend using it
    >as your only preamp - the EQ section isn't strong enough for it. 
    
    What do you mean "isn't strong enough"?  Do you mean that the three
    bands aren't flexable enough or that it's output is weak?
    
    >One thing that's cool about all of ART's stuff is that it's software
    >updateable and they actually support this feature.
    
    That seems like a BIG plus!
    
    >The only weak link is the PT. 
    
    Sorry, I'm about half brain-dead right now...what's PT?
    
    Greg

    I was gonna ask the same thing... Whats a PT ?
    
    I'm real interested in this unit also...  If the EQ isn't strong
    enough, might a additional EQ be a good idea ?
    
    jc (Who has one in his rack already...)

    PT either means "Pitch Transposer" or "Price Tag" ... ????
    
    
    				Scary

    Sorry Guys. PT = pitch transposer. A little Boss micro rack (RPS-10?
    or something like that) sounds a lot better. The one in the ART is 
    'metalic-y' and almost sounds out of tune(beating). It's kinda weird
    because Tony Gambacurta (principle designer) is a PT freak and
    originally designed the MXR (analog) PT which then became the ART
    PT. ( Those things actually sounded pretty good but didn't track too 
    fast and retailed for $1200!). He said something about upgrading it
    in a future rev. About the 'updateability', ART is pretty good about
    this. EX. they recently brought out the 3rd or 4th rev for the DR2a
    which has been off the price books for a coouple of years now. 
      I should've qualified the EQ comment - it's similar to the EQ in a
    GP8 - I suppose you could plug into the processor and right into a
    power amp but it's just not flexible or FAST enough for me. Don't get 
    me wrong - I think the thing is wonderfull. Sometimes I just get
    a little cynical cause of the trend for a super heavy processed
    guitar sound. Jeez, now I sound old.....oh well......

    
    
     I just tried a GSP5 at Dr Sound (n.y.). Great box!!!. Priced at
    $439 , but the good Doctor is known to be over-priced so it can
    probably be had MO for $380 approx.
      EXXXcellent chorus and multi-taps. The salesman ( a pal o' mine)
    recently sold his GP-8 and got a Steinberger Rutherford and a GSP5.
    Whatt a combo.
    
      But I'll wait to hear the S.G.E. before I plunk my hard-earneds
    down!
    					rich
    

    Yessir...  I'm ready to try one...
    
    
   jc

      I just added the SGE into my rack. It's been showing up at
    music stores in force for the last week or so. All in all it's a
    great unit for the price. I'm still using the Roland GP-8 because
    I still need the footswitch and it has all "MY" sounds. I have the
    SGE plugged into the effect loop of the GP-8 and it's set up to
    take over some of the functions as well as add some new ones. I
    already have a patch using the Pitch Transposer (PT) but it takes 
    some tweaking to keep it from sounding metallic. There are better
    units out there for PT applications but for quite a few more bucks.
      So far I would agree the the SGE wouldn't cut it as a standalone
    pre-amp. The Roland, as well as the Digitech GSP5 seems to have it 
    beat there. I don't like the user-unfriendlyness of any of the
    Digitech units. The Roland has the best display, is the easiest
    to operate, allows full control of parameters, and has a nice 
    footswitch unit that is powered from the GP-8 and has LED indicators.
    The only drawbacks to the Roland are the price and lack of a PT
    and reverb. Also the Roland has a programmable master volume for
    each patch independant of the effects individual parameters. On
    the SGE you have to use the levels on the effects added to the patch
    that have an affect on overall volume ( not all effects affect vol).
      In conclusion ( and confusion): If you need an multi-effector
    with a lot of bang for the buck the SGE is great. Keep in mind that
    it does not come with a foot controller, ART doesn't even make one
    yet. Since the SGE has faders for both input and output, as well as
    a wet/dry mix fader, this should work well in any amps effects loop,
    as well as in a rack system. 
      I'll probably keep the Roland for a while because of the footswitch.
    The possible replacement for the GP-8 might be the T.C. Electronics
    TC 2290. It has a great controller and it's effects should complement
    the SGE well. All of the effects in the GP-8 are in the SGE!
    

    re: .18
    
    Why do you feel the SGE would not be suitable as a single preamp, where
    the GSP-5 would?  
    
    Greg

    
    RE .18
    
    	You state, I believe, that you still have the GP-8 because of
    the footswitch and your patches. Does this mean you're getting rid
     of it in favor of the S.G.E.?. 

    Yeah, what they said !
    
    Isn't the FC100 just a midi-controller or is it like "custom" for
    the GP8 ?
    
    It's very unfortunate to live in SC where none of the local stores
    carry the SGE.  I wanna try one SO bad...
    
    I played a GSP-5 the other night, and I liked everything about it
    except that it's a pain to program (like, DIGItech is known for...) I
    liked the sound of the OD though...  There was also a neet patch that a
    mix of a reversed reverb, OD (mega-turbo!), and Flange... Very subtle,
    very cool.  The Kramer that I was playing immediately started to
    feedback... (I get my jollies playing with feedback).
    
    I also tried the new Roland pre-amp doo-hicki...  Nice, but VERY
    over priced... 

    jc

    The FC-100 isn't custom for the GP-8.  In fact, it can be used with
    several Roland products.  However, it isn't a MIDI controller either
    because it has no MIDI ports.
    
    It uses some hybrid plug (Roland calls it RPC).
    
    	db

    So, it's kinda custom for Roland then ?  It wouldn't work with my
    digitech... right ?

    re: .19 thru .23
    
     That's right- the Roland FC-100 ( and probably the new FC-100 II)
    are RRC devices and not MIDI controllers. One of the main differences
    is that a MIDI controller will need its own power source, either
    an AC plug, AC adapter, or batteries ( which is one of the main
    reasons we went to racks in the first place!).  The Roland gets
    its juice from the host ( GP-8 or Roland guiar synth ) making setup
    a little easier. 
     The ART SGE could probable be used as a pre-amp but the versatility
    would't be there. I'll still take the Roland for its EQ capabilities,
    master volume per patch ( a biggie), and patching options. I'm not
    not knocking the SGE, it's a great effect unit and when used as
    such kills anything in its price range. I use my Kitty Hawk quattro
    pre-amp for setting EQ's per type of setting (clean/crunch/lead).
    I'm setting the rack up with a Kitty Hawk MIDI Patch Bayette I to
    control loops and amp switching. When that's done and I get a foot
    controller as good (or better) than the Roland FC-100, then I can
    sell the GP-8 and FC-100.
      I've only had the SGE a week and I'll probably spend some time
    this weekend creating more patches. There's a lot to this beast
    so it takes some time. BTW I did get the "new" SGE, I was told the
    earlier one was never meant to be sold, just a demonstrator.
    
    

    I played with a GSP-5 last night and frankly, I wasn't as impressed
    with it as I had hoped.  I'd kind of hoped that it would blow my mind,
    so that I could just buy one and forget about more expensive stuff like
    the SGE.  The SGE looks great on paper and does a lot more, I haven't
    heard one yet, but it costs at least a hundred more.  I try to spend
    conservatively when I can... (hahahahah)
    
    Perhaps I didn't set the EQ up right or something, I only used it for
    about half an hour, but I couldn't get a distortion sound out of it
    that I really liked.  It had a good distortion, but not great.  I
    thought it sounded kind of "tubey", but I wasn't able to get a really
    extreme sounding distortion like I get from my Hiwatt with a PowerSoak
    (which I *really* want to stop using).
    
    As expected, from my knowledge of other Digitech products,  I liked the
    way it's reverb and delay type effects sounded.  One thing is that the
    chorus and flange effects tend to brighten your overall sound, rather
    then a more passive effect.  I didn't find it too objectionable though. 
    
    One thing I didn't realize before trying it was that you can't directly
    select the combination of effects you want.  There are 14 preset
    effects "chains", essentually combinations of the effects it has, which
    are provided for you.  You can however select any chain for any program
    number.
    
    There are 99 programs which you can set up.  The footswitch given you
    provides program up, program down, and unit bypass functions.  It can
    also take program changes via MIDI.  Contrary to what Jeff (.21) said,
    I thought that it was very easy to program.  Would be nicer if they had
    a longer display so that the parameter names would be more descriptive,
    but with about a five minute coaching session, I was able to set up
    just about anything in it.
    
    My two requirements for effects which I need right now are 1) excellent
    sounding distortion and a good warm clean tone and 2) decent reverb. 
    The GSP-5 fails me in the distortion dept, so I'll keep looking (unless
    my salesman can show me a program setup in it that gets a sound I like,
    he couldn't last night but he's just getting used to the unit too).
    
    Greg

    Greg,  you write MACRO and Bliss for a living... Of course it's
    easy to you...
    
    ;^)
    
    I might also make a point that most of the newer goodies here have
    the ability to create your own "labels" for your fave FX.  The DIGItech
    folks haven't caught on yet...
    
    jc

    >Greg,  you write MACRO and Bliss for a living... Of course it's
    >easy to you...

    That's true.  I'm sure that being a professional programmer (or even an
    amateur programmer) helps in understanding that sort of thing.  It's
    basically a little menu system with cryptic little mnemonic prompts
    (have you ever used Un*x?).

    >I might also make a point that most of the newer goodies here have
    >the ability to create your own "labels" for your fave FX.  The DIGItech
    >folks haven't caught on yet...

    True, many of them do.  I think that's a really nice feature, but not
    necessarily.  Figure that the GSP-5/DSP-128/whatever-else-shares-this-
    architecture units are among the least expensive of the bunch and came
    out on the leading edge of the multi-effects wave.  They just haven't
    updated it much yet.

    BTW, does a Quadraverb allow you to name your programs?  (just
    wondering, since it's also a fairly low priced entry in the same
    market).

    Greg (who still hasn't gotten to try an SGE yet and is starting to
    chomp at the bit)

    The Quadraverb allows 36 character names to be assigned to any program.
    It can be Alpha-numeric and gives you graphics for !, *, and stuff
    like that.
    

    Same with the Multiverb (full ASCII) in terms of character
    possiblilities for titles.  It's cool, cuz you can name the patch
    for it's *type* of sound (e.g. chorus-verb, Fender Twin = 4, etc.),
    or you can name it for the song that it goes with (e.g. "The Thrill",
    "Alone Again", etc.).
    
    joe.

      I think the SGE is worth the extra C-note or all its additional
    features. I feel the ASCII display is a must for anyone using more
    than twenty patches. You gonna keep all that info in yer head?
    You'll go on vacation for a few weeks then come back, forget your
    numbers/patches and hit Mega-overdrive when you wanted shimmering
    chorus, then watch the band members turn their heads.
      	
    					Luv my SGE-
    

    Greg the Q-Verb has no distortion/overdriving...
    
    Yeah, ya gotta have a Alpha numeric labeling system...
    
    Trying to remember the numbers is BAD news...  ;^)
    
    jc (Who has to come up north to try the SGE...)   ;^(

    re: .31
    
    >Greg the Q-Verb has no distortion/overdriving...
    
    Yeah, I know.  But I've heard it's 'verb is good. 
    
    Well my personal wait to try one out is over!  My music store finally
    got the SGEs in and I tried one in the store.  Overall, it sounds very
    good.  The presets give you a really good idea what the machines
    capabilities are and it's reasonably easy to program.  I like the fact
    that you are not restricted to just a few combinations of effects like
    on algorithmic units like the GSP-5.  Speaking of that one, the SGE
    completely blows it away, and is only around $100 more.
    
    After trying it in the store on Saturday, they offered to let me take
    one home to demo for a few days.  Naturally, I wasn't stupid enough to
    turn down the offer.  8^)
    
    I am quite impressed with it and will most likely buy one (probably
    before I have to take this one back... 8^). 
    
    Even though most of my opinions are now formed, I'll play with it until
    I have to take it back (or buy it), and then post specifics here.
    
    Incidentally, if anyone has anything they'd like me to try with it
    (before Tuesday, if I don't buy it then), feel free to post it or send
    me mail (CSC32::G_HOUSE) by Monday afternoon and I'll do it Monday
    night.
    
    Greg
                                         

>    Incidentally, if anyone has anything they'd like me to try with it
>    (before Tuesday, if I don't buy it then), feel free to post it or send
>    me mail (CSC32::G_HOUSE) by Monday afternoon and I'll do it Monday
>    night.
    
    Greg, why not post the results of any experiments in here?  I'd
    be curious to read how everything went!
    
    Mike

    re: .-1
    
    Ok, I'll tell ya a little about what I've been doing with it and what I
    think.
    
    For starters, I like the presets.  I don't know that many of them would
    be real useful in actual application, but they do an excellent job of
    showing you the capabilities of the machine and give you good examples
    of how to do certain things with it.  I had a good time just looking at
    what the did with some of them and tweaking them around.  The unit is
    nice in the respect that you can modify the parameters while you're
    playing through a program to see whether you like something or not
    before saving it.
    
    They provide you with 100 presets already stored, so that leaves you
    with 100 more slots for your own.  One caution if you demo it in a
    store using the presets they give you. They set the level (degree of
    supression) on the noise gate too high for my tastes on many of the
    programs,  so it doesn't sustain as well as it can.  But never fear,
    it's easily correctable. 
    
    I've been writing up some programs on it to create some of the sounds
    I'd need for some of the songs we do in my band and have been really
    pleased with it's ability to generate the sounds I need.  It's easy to
    program and quite flexable.
    
    One of my experiments was to try and recreate the sound my Hiwatt
    (100wt combo) makes when it's totally cranked through a PowerSoak.  I
    was VERY pleased with the results.  I was able to get a patch which I
    thought was extremely close to it's sound (which I really like), so no
    more burning up tubes using that PowerSoak.  Now I need a really
    awesome hotrodded Marshall to copy.  8^)
    
    Things I especially like about the unit are the distortion, the
    reverb, and there is a really cool stereo delay that allows you to
    vary the delay time seperately for each side (L-R).  It also has
    panning which is neat with both the delays and the reverb.  
    
    There are TWELVE different types of overdrive/distortion!  Actually
    three overdrive settings, three distortion settings, three
    turbo-overdrive, and three turbo-distortions.  They say the "turbo"
    versions of these have boosted lower end.  The distortion is among the
    best I've heard, esp when you augment it with some compression and add
    a bit of exciter.  
    
    You can pick pretty much any combination of effects (not in predefined
    "chains" as on the GSP-5).  Many of them have a positioning parameter
    that lets you place them at different points in the chain. Example, the
    EQ (3 band) can be placed either pre or post distortion for different
    type sounds.  There are 24 different type effects (though many of them
    are very similar) and you can pick up to 9 (sometimes, see below) to
    run at once.  All in all it's really flexable.  You can randomly access
    the programs via MIDI or the front panel and some of the parameters for
    the program can be dynamically changed via MIDI while you're playing.  
    You can also program in loops which can be incremented (but not
    decremented) via a standard footswitch.  These loops just cycle
    through, but the programs don't have to be in sequential order.

    As far as it's negative points (and these are all very minor for my
    puropses), there are certain combinations of things you can't have,
    like if you're using the pitch transposer, you can't have reverb in the
    same program.  Also the longest delay it's capable of is 500ms, and
    some types of delay allow only shorter times then this. The exciter on
    this one is VERY subtle, even more so then exciters generally are
    anyway.  The noise gate is kind of sensative and if you  set it's
    threshold too high you'll lose your sustain and it'll squash  your high
    end.  The three band EQ is acceptable, but would be more useful if it
    had more range.
    
    It's capable of being used as a preamp, the output slider has "line
    level" marked on it about half way up.  I think that this is probably
    how I'll use it eventually.

    I guess you could tell by now that I like the unit a lot.  IMO, it
    blows the GSP-5 completely out of the water, AND it's only about $100
    more.  My price is $511. 

    Greg

      Another one sold! I'm in agreement with everything in .34 .
    I've been experimenting for a few weeks and I keep getting good
    sounds out of it. The Pitch transposer works best on the lower 
    settings ( right down to -12), but EQing the upper ones and adding
    some grit helps the upper PT settings. 
      I still have my standard amp system (head and cab) but more and more 
    I'm getting into the rack system I'm building. So far it's the two
    Kitty Hawk's (Quattro tube pre-amp and MIDI Patch Bayette I), the
    Roland GP-8/FC-100, the ART SGE, and a Carvin FET400 power amp (I
    pulled it from my P.A. rack). Actually I'm still coming out of my
    effects and going into my Kitty Hawk M1 head (tubes!). I'm going
    to have to work with the Carvin to make this system cook.
      BTW G.H. $511 is a decent price. I got my SGE mail order for $499. 

What's the frequency response of the SGE?

thanks

dbii

    I think its advertised as 20Khz.

    Yep, it's "Bandwidth to 20KHz" according to the pamphlet.  It also has
    20 bit internal processing for enhanced speed (FWIW).  I've found that
    even with many effects hooked in, it does not get muddy or
    objectionably noisy.  Plus it has a noise gate to help with this when
    using lots of distortion or compression.

    I went ahead and bought it.  The more I play with the thing, the better
    I like it.  I used it at band practice last night and the other guys in
    the band seemed to really like the sounds it had.

    I did have one strange thing happen with the SGE I had.  Sunday
    afternoon I noticed once that the left channel wasn't playing anything. 
    I immediately thought "bad cable" and swapped them (left to right)
    which resolved the problem.  I figured that cable was starting to go
    bad and had a bend in the wrong spot or something, no big deal.  Then
    at practice last night it did the same thing again.  Once again, it was
    the left side, but with a different cable.  I again swapped the cables
    and the left side was still out.  I started playing around and it
    seemed to only affect two programs, ones that I'd created.  As far as I
    know there is no method of specifying "only use one output channel". 
    Then while I was standing there thinking about it, it started working
    again!  (With no mechanical intervention).  

    This kind of bothered me, so  when I went back to the store to buy it,
    I got a different unit (and some new cables for output), just in case. 
    Have any of you other SGE owners experienced anything like this?  Could
    this have been caused by something I did (so I won't do it again!)?

    Greg

    My Quadraverb is stereo, and when in mono mode, it only uses one
    output, so maybe if you had, say, a mono delay thing, it was
    only coming out one side?!?!?
    
    Just a speculation...

    Interesting idea, but I don't think that's it.  Typically on the SGE,
    even the mono effects are routed to both output channels if they're
    both plugged in.  The curious thing was that the second time, the
    problem magically went away without any intervention on my part.
    
    I conjectured that the left output circuit was doing something wrong or
    that the jack was intermittantly failing.
    
    So far, I haven't had this problem with the new unit.  I'm keeping my
    fingers crossed (and new cables in use).
    
    Greg

    What are some applications for the MIDI ports on the ART SGE?  I'm
    fairly new to the world of MIDI and am curious about what you could
    with MIDI in a guitar application such as this.
    
    Keyboards I understand fairly well, it is the guitar applications
    I'm wondering about.
    
    Mike

                 
    The MIDI ports would allow the SGE to accept patch changes allowing
    you to go from "REVERB-O-CRUNCH" to "CHORUS-CLEAN" or any other patch
    at the touch of a button...
    
    Edd

    
    	If playing with a sequenced setup, the sequencer can send patch
    changes for you while you play. I have a complete midistudio including
    sequencer, drum machine, 2 multitimbral synths, midiverb II for
    overall reverb, an 8 channel mixer and a gsp5 (soon to be SGE)for my
     guitar. I never have to touch a footswitch or pedal. All patch changes
     leave the sequencer thru the midi out, enters the mixers midi-in, and
     split off into the midi -ins of each device.            
    
       I got sick of bassists and drummers being too late or too
        stoned for practice and decided this was the way to go!
       
                                         rich
    

    re: .43
    
    This is exactly what I plan to do, since the band I play in uses a
    sequenced drum track.  Since the sequence is already inflexable, having
    my patch changes made from the sequncer will make my life very easy.
    
    If I need to make them manually at some point in the future (another
    band or something), then I'll worry about getting a MIDI foot
    controller.
    
    MIDI also allows you to perform random access to the programs in the
    unit.  This can be quite an advantage over having to twiddle knobs and
    such.
    
    The SGE also has what ART calls Performance Midi, which allows you to
    change certain vital parameters within your patch (such as distortion
    drive) from an external midi source, while you're playing.  As an
    example, you could map it to the pitch bend wheel on a keyboard and
    have that perform continuous control on a parameter.  Could be
    interesting.
    
    Greg

    You could even go a step farther and have a sequencer do things
    like run your light show...
    
    Nifty stuff this midi...
    
    ;^)
    
    jc (Who will pick up his SGE and MP1000 next week...)  (!!!)

    Yo, Coop!
    
    Sure you don't mean an SP1000 (the Metaltronix power amp)?
    
    Buck, who knows not of am MP1000

    Yo Coop,
    
      either that or do you mean M1000
    

    Is there any software out there that supports the Roland GP8s and
    ART SGEs of the world?  It would probably be neat to edit the libraries
    from a PC (i.e., Atari ST, Amiga,...)
    
    Mike

    Yup.  Sorry.  I blew it.
    
    Should I enter a new note ?   ;^)
    
    Try the Apple series of PC's.  They probably have some midi software...
    
    

    Does the ART SGE have anything like the "Playmate" option on the
    Roland SDE3000?  You know where you can tap in an 8 second pattern
    in memory and loop it.
    
    To me that is a very practical use of the digital delay.  It's great
    to be able to layer your guitar work over an infinite loop.
    
    Mike

    >Does the ART SGE have anything like the "Playmate" option on the
    >Roland SDE3000?  You know where you can tap in an 8 second pattern
    >in memory and loop it.
    
    Nope.  The longest delay that the SGE will do is 500ms (half a second).  
    
    Now, I have a nice Digitech RDS3600 that'll do that (Wanna buy it?).
    
    Greg

    Another thing about the MIDI ports on these processors: wouldn't
    be great if some software house came out with a data capturing tool
    for the SGE and GP8?  Then those nights of improvising, where you're 
    "hot" and everything you attempt is done flawlessly, can be captured
    and stored, instead of hopelessly lost. :-)
    
>    Now, I have a nice Digitech RDS3600 that'll do that (Wanna buy it?).
    
    Greg, is it as user friendly as their other units? :-)  I'm familiar
    with Bliss, but frankly I'd rather leave Bliss at work and enjoy
    other forms of bliss at home :-).
    
    I've demoed the Roland SDE3000 and I like it.
    
    Mike

RE < Note 1313.52 by PNO::HEISER "bash-n-the code" >

>    Another thing about the MIDI ports on these processors: wouldn't
>    be great if some software house came out with a data capturing tool
>    for the SGE and GP8?  Then those nights of improvising, where you're 
>    "hot" and everything you attempt is done flawlessly, can be captured
>    and stored, instead of hopelessly lost. :-)

	I think you're confusing two separate functions.  The MIDI 
implementation on signal processors is simply to store and recall (and sometimes
alter) SETUPS.  This has nothing to do (directly) with a guitarist's 
PERFORMANCE.  In order to capture a guitarists PERFORMANCE, you'd have to have 
some form of PITCH-TO-MIDI converter.

	Dan
    

    Yeah, but it was a nice thought !!!!
    
    ;^)

    Yep, definately a cool thought, but quite impossible using these
    processors.  Just hope you have the tape recorder going...
    
    Greg

    You would think that these companies would get smart and give
    guitarists the same type of software/hardware that keyboard players
    have.
    
    I guess I assumed the signal processors were full MIDI.  Now that
    I know there is a difference...
    
    Mike

RE < Note 1313.56 by PNO::HEISER "bash-n-the code" >

	I don't think you understand the various purposes of MIDI.  MIDI was
never made to be a signal processor - it is a protocol whereby different 
microprocessors can speak to each other - like the ethernet is to the VAX.  MIDI
can make no sound of its own, nor does it 'hear' sound (in the way that a tape
recorder would).  It can only transmit control signals.

	'These companies' ARE trying to give guitarists the same type of 
software/hardware that keyboard players have.  They're doing it with 
pitch-to-MIDI converters.  Roland has been making them for years, as have 
Yamaha and other companies.  It's not an easy thing to do and the technology is 
not yet in place to do it in a way that is both effective and affordable.

	The problem of guitars not adapting well to MIDI is not primarily a
problem with MIDI - rather it is a problem of translating the 'control actions'
of a guitarists playing (with all its subtle style and nuance) into control
signals that are translatable by microprocessors.  As far as I know, it hasn't
been done very well yet.  Perhaps someday someone will figure out a way to do
it and will revolutionize the industry.  

	Dan

    Yes Dan, I realize that MIDI is just a channel or communication
    link.  I guess I was referring to a pitch-to-MIDI conversion since
    the MIDI ports on the signal processors only change the internal
    effects.
    
    Have you seen a demo of the FINALE software product (I saw it run
    on a Mac, not sure what else it supports)?  It performs standard
    notation on data coming through the MIDI channels!  That's what
    I'd like to see for guitar support.
    
    Mike

RE < Note 1313.58 by PNO::HEISER "bash-n-the code" >

	I haven't seen FINALE, but I've heard about it.  The point I'm
belaboring (I'll shut up after this 8^) is that MIDI doesn't need to be
improved to handle what you're asking for.  What needs to be improved is the 
method/technology by which guitarists control actions are translated into
signals that MIDI processors can recognize.  It is being done, a lot of products
are coming out, and gradually, one should expect to see something that is useful
and affordable.  Somehow, I wonder whether it will ever approach being able to
pick up all the nuance that a good guitarist (or any non-keyboardist) puts into
his instrument.

	Perhaps I should qualify that point above (that MIDI doesn't need to be
improved).  If we ever come to the point that guitarists can transmit 
electronically the diverse ways they play, there may very well be a need for 
enhancements to the MIDI spec (MIDI 2.0?) in order to accomodate.  MIDI was 
created for keyboards, and it best serves a keyboard-type controller.

	Dan

    Well, the SGE saw it's first "gig" last night.  (I use the term gig
    loosely as we were just just a basement band at a party and we only
    played for a couple of hours).
    
    Overall, the SGE sounded great.  I really like it's sounds.  There were
    a couple of deficiencies though.
    
    Having an external EQ would have been very helpful in this instance, as
    I use the 3-band internal EQ to shape the "sound" that I'm using.  An
    external one would have helped when playing in a room such as this one
    (concrete floor and walls, no wall covering, just rafters in the
    celing).  It was very live and I had some feedback problems.  I tried
    using the tone controls on the amp, but they just didn't give me as
    much control as I needed.
    
    Playing out with it also accentuated something that's been starting to
    bother me about the unit, namely the lack of a master volume for each
    program.  This would be extremely useful, as there are inherent volume
    differences within the unit that make certain programs (especially
    those using "Distortion-2") much louder then others.  
    
    I was running mono into a Hiwatt 1x12 combo, so I used a volume pedal
    on the output to control the volume without affecting the initial
    signal chain.  This worked pretty well, except that the volume pedal I
    used (a Morley optical) was VERY sensative and it made mid-song volume
    adjustments rather tedious.
    
    Any suggestions on getting around this type situation (hopefully
    without major purchases)?
    
    Greg

    Can you get a Tom Scholz (Boston) type distortion out of the SGE?
    
    Mike

    
    
    	Anyone out there using an SGE straight thru the P.A. without
    a guitar amp?.How"s the sound?...........rich

    I tried mine briefly direct into our PA and didn't like the sound.  It
    was very trebly and "brittle" on the one program I used.  I might have
    been able to work around it by redoing my patches, but I didn't have
    time to mess with it when I tested.  If you can't compensate within the
    unit, I'm sure that you could do it with some external equalization. 
    That's essentually what the guitar amp is doing for it...
    
    I have found that I can get very good sounds out of it through either a
    solid state or a tube amp, but they do need slight tweaks to sound the
    same.

    Greg 

    I've got a patch in mine that came up with:
    
    It's call "Foreplay"...   It's a pretty nifty rockman clone.
    
    jc

    Ack !
    
    I can't my SGE to send a patch change to my DSP128 !!
    
    From what I understand, if I hook my MIDI out port to the MIDI in
    port, I should be able to tell one device to set the other to a
    desired preset.
    
    So, what have I done wrong ?
    
    I called up ART Saturday, and the guy on the phone (I don't think
    he knew what he was talking about!) said that the SGE would not
    send a patch change request via MIDI.  
    
    What good is MIDI if I can't do this ?
    
    Am I gonna have to get the DSP128 to send the request to the ART?
    Whats the deal ?!?!?!  Greg ??
    
    jc

RE < Note 1313.65 by ASAHI::COOPER "Burn my flag, and I'll shoot ya..." >

	Although I'm not familiar with the SGE per se, generally a signal 
processor will not send anything out its MIDI OUT port except its setup
configurations (for storage on magnetic medium - disk).  In other words,
it probably only sends System Exclusives from the OUT port.  This is an 
advantage if you have a disk drive set up to store them in case your signal
processing devise goes wacky and needs to reboot (initialize its memory 
locations).  You just send the SysEx data back from the disk and voila - your 
old setup is renewed.

	In order to send patch changes, you'll need to have some kind of MIDI 
controller (keyboard, sequencer, special MIDI patch-change device) plugged into
the MIDI IN port of the first devise in your MIDI chain.  Then plug a MIDI cable
from the MIDI _THRU_ port into the MIDI IN port of the next devise in the MIDI 
chain (note:  the order of the MIDI chain does not HAVE to be in the same order 
as the signal is being processed).  The MIDI controller will send patch change
commands to the first devise and it will be echoed out the THRU port into the 
next devise.

	Like I said, I don't know the particulars of the SGE, but generally 
speaking, the MIDI OUT port of signal processors are only to transmit SysEx
for storage in case of equipment breakdown (it is also used to transmit to a
computor with Sysex editing software in order to fine-tune presets, and send
back).

	Hope this helps.

	Dan

    
    
    	Whatever foot controller you are using probably sends its patch
    change info on only one midi channel. If you want to send a change
    to one of the effects but not both, you would probably need some
    of the more sophisticated  stuff Dan mentioned.
       The easiest thing for you to do would be :
    1)make sure both midi effects are in omni mode
    2)run midi thru of first effect to midi in of second(as Dan suggested).
       Unfortunately both units will patch change simultaneously so
    you will have to shuffly all your patches in the units so that 
    "Metal Crunch Echo" will line up with "Flange of Doom"
        
    	Now, if you had two midipedals.....
    
    
    				Rich
    
    
    
    
    			
    

    Some pedals (such as my Digitech PDS3500 are capable of sending
    multiple MIDI commands on different channels with one tap of the
    foot. The only way to get a MIDI command to propogate is to use
    the thru output of all devices between the sender and reciever.
    
    Jim
    

    Jeff,
    
    Do you have the "Midi Merger" function in the SGE enabled?  I don't
    think it will echo the Midi signals through the out port?  I think
    that's what it's supposed to do.  Be sure that both units are on the
    same Midi channel (or in Omni mode where they should receive info on
    any channel).
    
    There are units out there that are terminator units only.  The REX-50
    is like this.  Maybe the SGE is too?
    
    I haven't tried the Midi Merger function on my SGE, I'm the last unit
    in the chain.  Remind me and I'll try it at practice Wed night.
    
    Greg                                                           

      I'll put my two cents in when I check mine out. My SGE is also
    the last thing in my MIDI chain. BTW my Roland GP-8 sorta died,
    I can't change any patch numbers from anything but the front panel.
    Lucky me, I rely on my GP-8/FC-100 to change my patches. Interesting
    enough when I thought it might be the foot controller, I tried going
    out of my SGE into the Roland without any luck! Now after reading
    this scenario, I'm back to wondering which end is broke! ( I tried
    OMNI mode). 
      I hope my Roland gets fixed by this weekend.

      There it is, right in the SGE manual. The only thing it lists
    going out is system exclusive data, as in a parameter dump I take
    it. I turned my MIDI merger off and it still didn't send program
    change info. Until I/we find out the scoop on this I guess it will
    have to stay at the end of the cable. Sounds like another reason
    to buy a MIDI thru box.
      It looks like my GP-8 is OK. My problem is probably the cable
    which is non-standard. The only other possibility is the FC-100
    

    Check out page 20 of the manual.  It says that the MIDI Merger features
    allows the MIDI OUT jack on the SGE to "act the same as a MIDI THRU
    jack".  So it is supposed to just pass the MIDI data along if this
    function is enabled.
    
    Sounds like it *should* work!
    
    Greg

      The GP-8 works again. The problem was in the cord! I stupidly
    assumed it was the GP-8 because the SGE didn't send program changes
    to the GP-8 MIDI in and the foot controller didn't work. Now the
    foot controller works but it still doesn't get program changes from
    the SGE. I'll experiment some more. I wish I had seen the note on
    the SGE/MIDI out situation just before I took the GP-8 in for service.
    I wouldv'e checked the cord. Thirty bucks though - not too bad.
      I turned a friend onto my rack. He's dumping his Marshall ( We're
    gonna need a special landfill if this keeps up). He's getting the
    Kitty Hawk Quattro and the SGE. I showed him what the Quattro could
    do with the SGE in bypass mode first. He really went nuts over the
    clean channel. I put it thru its paces - including massive OD -
    THEN I took the SGE out of bypass. Unfortunately I'm waiting for
    my Metaltronix SP1000 power amp ( thanx jeff and buck ) which is
    on special order. This should be the icing on the cake. 

    What I ended up doing was using my MIDI controller to send something
    like:
    
    Controller Preset #1 = 
    MIDI Channel 1 = preset 103  (My fave on the SGE)
    MIDI Channel 2 = preset 86   (My fave on the DSP128)
    
    Luckily, my controller allows for multilple presets to be broadcast on
    different MIDI channels...
    
    RE: Metaltronix SP1000...  KEEP IT COOL !  You could fry an egg on one
    after a couple of hours at full blast.
    
    I'm gonna try a friends tubedriver as a preamp and see if I can get
    some more volume...   But my DSP128 so I can slip a preamp in it's
    place !
    
    jc

    I received an EMG catalog this weekend and noticed that they offer
    an internal preamp option.  
    
    Do you think something like this would reduce the strain on the
    power amp used with the SGE?  Does the SGE have a maximum input
    level?
    
    Mike

``Strain'' isn't the right word.  Again, the only thing that will
happen if you try to get gain out of the SGE is a noiser system than necessary.

A decent preamp before the SGE will help.

Steph

    I run all the slides on the SGE at max... 'Cept for the mix.  The 
    "dry" side of that slide run is A LOT louder than the mixed side.
    I guess this is the negative side to stereo fx ?
    
    jc

    re: Mike
    
    The SGE will take line level inputs, if that's what you were asking.  I
    think what the guy was trying to tell me was that he didn't think it
    would internally develop enough gain to produce a line level output
    from a instrument level input.
    
    Well, I've now place two calls into ART to ask about this and they have
    not returned my calls.  I'm giving up, since I don't need to use the
    SGE as a preamp now and don't want to waste any more time or money
    calling them (no 800 number listed in the SGE doc., tacky).  If anyone
    else wants to give it a try, I was told both times I called that  I
    needed to talk to Jim Stachowski.  Beware, he apparently leaves pretty
    early.  One call was at or before 4:00 pm New York time.
    
    Greg

    Re: SGE
    
    Ad in today's paper from a local guitar shop...
    
    "Can even function as a guitar pre amp!"
    
    Somebody should tell them what ART says!
    
    Mike

< Re. Note 1313.22 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Conliberative" >
      
<    The FC-100 isn't custom for the GP-8.  In fact, it can be used with
<    several Roland products.  However, it isn't a MIDI controller either
<    because it has no MIDI ports.
    
<    It uses some hybrid plug (Roland calls it RPC).
    
      
    	I know that this is probably not the place for this reply, but
    since it was here to begin with, here goes.  I was looking back
    through some of the Roland User's Group magazines (volume 7 # 1)
    and found that there is a RRC to MIDI converter, called a RMC-1.
    
    		"By adding the new RMC-1 RRC-to-MIDI convertor, it is
    possible to use the FC-100 Mark II with an extensive variety of
    MIDI products.  The RMC-1 features a MIDI input and two MIDI outputs
    in addtion to an RRC input.  The RMC-1 converts FC-100 Mark II data,
    and then merges that data with MIDI messages received at the MIDI
    input, allowing MIDI footswitch functions to be added to any MIDI
    controlling keyboard and/or sequencer system."
    
    
    
    Bruce Mc
    

    
    Just got back from lunch.  Spent an hour down at Mr. C's playing
    with the SGE and a Spector Bass.  While everyone knows how good
    both are, I wasn't really sure about the SGE unitil I really had
    had a chance to sit and play with it.  Well, I wasn't dissapointed
    that's for sure.  This thing is incredible.  If your a bit sceptical,
    go play it, you'll like it.  A very exceptional piece of equipment
    at a not too bad price!
    
    Mr. Ed...just my two cents!

    Mr Ed...Before you rush off and buy it, you might want to see my
    latest notes on the SGE in the "Starter Rack" note...  Just to be
    sure your informed.
    
    The main points against the SGE (IMHO):
    
    A) No master volume...
    B) It's NOT a preamp
    C) It's not stereo (It's stereo imaging...there's a difference)
    
    jc

    
    RE:  .82
    
    A) The level out is good enough for me and my system, I'm not
       really worried about a master volume.
    B) I don't want it to be a pre-amp, this is why I have a seperate
       pre-amp (the Pierce BP-1 Bass pre-amp, two channel bass wonder)
    C) Its not stereo.  So what.
    
    I'll read your note though.  Thanks for the concern.
    
    Mr. Ed...

    I was reading the latest Guitar World last night and noticed an ad from
    ART with some interesting new stuff.  Looks like the battle of "1-up-
    man-ship" between ART and Roland will continue a while longer.  I don't
    remember all the details but these stick out:
    
    ART SGE Mach II - 12 effects at a time.
    ART MultiVerb III?
    ART MultiVerb LT - something about 1 pushbutton operation.
    
    Hopefully we can get the old SGE in the $300-$400 range now that the
    new one is out.  Has this been ART's pricing strategy in the past?
    
    Mike

    
    12 at a time?
    
    Like what?  This is getting a bit ridiculous, isn't it?  I'm tryingt o
    think of a chain of 12 effects...let's see, into  a compressor, then
    pitch shift, a disortion, then an envelope following filter, then
    parametric EQ, then graphic EQ, then some flange/chorus, a delay,
    reverb.  OK, that's how many effects?  Nine, geez, and I'll bet the
    above might not be too musically useful either.
    
    I can see the need for simultaneous effects but it seems like the
    manufacturers are getting into a p***ing contest over who has the most
    effects at a time.
    
    It also seems like we've run out of new effects.  Since the explosion of
    time delay related effects in the 70s (flange, chorus, harmonizing)
    nothing new has really come along.  Things like compression and EQ ahve
    been with us for years, now we just get more processing muscle for less
    cash. 
    
    As far as prices, ART has never really dropped list prices, the
    ProVerb, for instance, has held its price in face of deservedly stiff
    competition from Alesis and is still listed in some catalogs I got last
    fall. 
    
    
    								Brian

    
    re:  Brian
    
    This cycle of excess is required to get back to the other side of the
    pendulum.  Kinda like the Roman Empire latter stages.  Rack people, 
    don't kill me!
    
    ;^)

    Ack !
    
    I hope they fixed the SGE !  Bag the 12 effects.  When I had my
    SGE I was having a tough time using more that 4-5 in a string.
    I hope they made it a preamp !
    
    What ADA needs to do is come out with an MP1+... An MP1 with digital
    reverbs and delay alogorhythms !  YEAH !

Re: .86

	The swing back....

		ES335 thru the clean side of a Dual Showman into 12" JBLs

	"too much monkey business, quit that botheration"

	Chuck B.

    >   -< Caligula's Rack >-

    You really mean "Coops Rack", right?    ;^)

    Anyone know if ART is going to offer an upgrade path for current SGE
    owners like Digitech did with the DSP-128 to the 128-Plus?  They billed
    it as never being obsolete since it was capable of software updates...

    Greg

    Does anyone know of an Editor / Librarian  that runs on a Mac+ for the
    Art Sge?
    
    I been putting off any of this stuff until I can get my Mac involved
    

    Greg, I think the SGE owners manual says you get software
    updates free if they come out with them. The impression I
    got from reading this was.....If we decide to upgrade we'll
    let you know. How they would let us know was unclear. Maybe
    through the dealers or some type of newsletter to those that
    sent in warranty cards. I haven't read or heard anything at
    this point that would indicate ART is even considering upgrading
    the SGE software. 

    Has anyone got a price for the ART S.G.E. in the UK, and a brief
    discription of it's features....
    
    Bob

    I just got off the phone with my local ART dealer.  He sez that there
    *will* in fact be an update available to upgrade a current SGE to a
    Mark II (said it was his first question to the ART people at NAMM).  It
    won't be available for a couple more months, but the Mark IIs are
    available now.  He says that nothing is definate, but the update will
    probably cost $100-$120.
    
    The SGE Mark II will be selling for about $50 more then the old one. 
    
    I'm going down one of these days to read over the brochure to see what
    it does.
    
    Greg    

    That's one thing I'll say for ART over nearly every other manufacturer.
    They usually have at least one software upgrade to their rack mountable
    effects.
    
    dbii who has no ART gear even though

    That's not software, that's hardware upgrades.
    
    Software is the MIDI Editor/Librarian for those 100 midi patches
    hardwared in the Art SGE  you can't buy because Art Garfunkels.
     

    SGE Mach II - 12 effects at once, 70 different sounds, effects include:
    exciter, EQ, compressor, limiter, noise gate, expander, sampler,
    envelope filter, pitch transposer, line EQ, stereo panner, stereo
    chorus & flange, 12 different distortions, 21 delay types (up to 2
    secs.), 24 reverb algorithms, 20KHz bandwidth, real time MIDI, 200
    memory locations.  $599.88
    
    Multiverb III - 53 different sounds, 4 at once including: sampling,
    stereo chorus & flange, 21 delay types (2 full secs), stereo panning,
    pitch transposing, 24 reverbs, 200 memory locations.  $429.88
    
    DR-X Studio Processor - digital reverb, pitch transposing, dynamics
    processing, sampling with 160Kb of RAM, 20KHz bandwidth, 10 effects at
    once (same effects as other units).   $519.88
    
    Multiverb LT - one touch control with 192 factory programmed effect
    combinations.  For those that don't want to spend time programming.
    $279.88
    
    Mike

    Oh yeah, that reminds me.  I looked over the ART pulp on the Mach II
    last weekend (and all this time I was mistakenly calling it a Mark II,
    only one letter off...)
    
    The main differences I noticed are:  It allows up to 2 sec. delays now,
    they added sampling and sample replay capability, and added a "cabinet
    emulator" option.  I think there was one more thing that I don't
    remember right now (probably something I didn't care about).
    
    Since it will allow more concurrent effects, they must have also
    seperated some of the things that seem to depend on each other in the
    old model.  Seemed like the digital effects shared the same memory or
    something limiting which could be used concurrently. Maybe the new one
    will allow you to use the pitch transposer and reverb at the same time,
    which would be nice. 
    
    It doesn't say anything about the EQ section, so I presume it's the
    same (3 band...I would have bought the upgrade JUST to get a better EQ
    section).  The cabinet emulator would be nice for recording and the
    longer delay would probably be occasionally useful. 
    
    At this point I don't know if I'll go for the upgrade when it becomes
    available or not.  They added some nice little features, but I'm not
    sure if they're worth the extra money.
    
    Greg

  
    Is the Mach I software upgradeable to include the new effects
    or are we stuck with what we have?......8*)
    
    Mark C who_is_STILL_waiting_for_his_kitty
     

    See .93 Mark...
    
    Don't know if it's a HW or SW update though.

    According to Musician's Friends' prices, the Mach II is only $50 more.
    With the laws of supply and demand, the original SGE should start
    losing its list price value.
    
    Mike

>    DR-X Studio Processor - digital reverb, pitch transposing, dynamics
>    processing, sampling with 160Kb of RAM, 20KHz bandwidth, 10 effects at
>    once (same effects as other units).   $519.88
    
    This sounds like a more interesting unit than the SGE.  Does anyone
    know what the max sampling time is?  ART doesn't seem to have an 8
    second sampler yet.  They need something to compete with Roland and
    Digitech in the consumer arena.
    
    Mike

    Sounds like an SGE Mach II without distortion to me.  Not to sound like
    a stuck 8 second delay..., but Digitech seems to be going for the
    novelty market with the 8 sec. delay, I can't imagine there would be
    enough demand for something like that to make it competative for a lot
    fo companies to market one.
    
    Greg

Buck and I were talking the other day...

Remember high sschool garage bands ??  Remember how *cool* it was to 
have a whole bunch of stomp boxes ??  Definately a novelty -marketing thing
IMHO.

jc -(Who once owned an SGE)

      Hopfully ART has done some mods to it's sh*tty compressor. When
    I started using the ART instead of the GP-8 the two things I liked
    least about the SGE was the compressor and the E.Q. If they fixed
    up these two areas, it would be mucho better. The DR-X doesn't look
    bad for us users that would rather get distortion through a pre-amp
    than through a microchip. 
      Waiting for more info!
    

    I agree with John completely!  Why didn't they fix up the deficiencies
    in the thing instead of adding more functionality.  
    
    I would probably never use a sampling function and the 500ms delay was
    adequate, but what I wanted were a master volume for each preset and a
    more flexable EQ.  The compressor isn't *too* bad, but I think that the
    exciter kind of sucks.
    
    It would be worth the $100 for the upgrade just to have a 7 band
    graphic in there.
    
    Greg

>    up these two areas, it would be mucho better. The DR-X doesn't look
>    bad for us users that would rather get distortion through a pre-amp
>    than through a microchip. 
    
    exactly my thoughts.  Leave the good stuff to the M1.  Great minds
    think alike!

      I'll tell ya, between all us brainstormers we could come up with
    the ultimate multi effect. My two cents:
    
    		1) dynamic digital delay like the TC2290 where the delay
   		   can be set to kick in only when the input signal drops
    		   below a preset threshold. One second would be cool
  		   w/ additional time an option card (like the TC).
    		2) programmable relay controls like the Kitty Hawk
    		   patch bayettes for switching channels in a rack 
    		   preamp or amp head. The relay outs should be
    		   totally signal isolated (not like the GP-8)
    		3) at least a 7 band progammable EQ like on the 
    		   Rockman XPR/XP100. Yes, LED's for EQ display!
    		4) A functional footswitch that gets it's power
    		   from the rack unit and runs power off the same cable
    		   like the Roland GP-8 does. 
		5) A informative alphanumeric display and parameters
    		   that can be edited easily and fine tuned (like delay
    		   in millisecond increments and regen from 0-50).
    
    	It seems like a lot of manufacturers have good intentions, but the
    best of it all is the right combination of all these features. I'd
    like to see ART keep moving forward, they have nice products at
    reasonable prices!
    							-BoOm-

Yeah !!!!!


What Boom said !  Plus:

- A GOOD noize gate (like the HUSH units)
- REAL stereo (like the DSP128)
- Good Signal to noize ratio, band width etc...
- Analog chorusing as well as the DDL functions (Analog like my MP1)
- MIDI Thru

jc (Would-be signal processing engineer partner with BOOM :)

    The folks at ART tell me they don't make an 8 second delay/sampler
    unit.  The DR-X does 2 secs. max (same as Mach II).
    
    Mike

       I want to make a change to my ultimate multi effect. Scrap the
    idea of the integrated single (powered) input for a foot controller.
    Better yet, the foot controller should plug into it's own single
    space rack module (which will run one a single cable to the footswitch
    unit). Since this circuitry won't require much space inside the
    rack, the rack unit should also include: three MIDI outs (essentially
    a thru box) to cut down MIDI delay, six surge protected AC outlets,
    and a whisper fan assembly. That way this "MIDI Conductor" could
    eliminate the need for a lot of extra rack spaces AND be capable
    of working with all the new gear coming out. 
      If the fan idea seems like too much of an extra, then maybe instead
    they could throw in two programmable switches (like a KH P.B.1 without
    the loop controls). That way it could switch channels on the amps
    or other non-MIDI effects. 

Yeah, with power chords that plug into sockets like my GK's...

jc

    How about that upgrade that was promised a few months ago...funny
    how a catalog arrived yesterday showing the Mach II and I started
    remembering ART's claim for software upgrades...does anyone have
    more info that the music dealers who would rather sell a Mach II
    ?
    

From: [email protected] (Craig R. Latta)
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers,rec.music.synth
Subject: The people at ART are shmucks
Date: 15 May 90 18:28:16 GMT
Sender: [email protected]
Organization: Music Department, UC Berkeley
 
 
	"Oh, the chip upgrade for the ART SGE will be ready in May, for
a hundred dollars."
 
	"Oh, the chip upgrade will be ready at the end of May, for around
a hundred dollars."
 
	"Call us in July..."
 
 
-C
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig Latta                          "Those who know History are 
[email protected]          	    doomed to explain it"   -- me.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    

    RE:113
    Thanks for the update on the upgrade - do you think a show of interest
    from a number of owners who were promised such upgrade would make
    a difference ?
    
    On the other hand, if the upgrade will destroy all my current user
    defined presets in number ranges that I have carefully set aside,
    maybe I can wait another month or two...
    

    Write them down ahead of time, if the upgrade will destroy your
    presets.
    
    It would be cool if the upgrade chip had its own socket and have the
    main CPU process either/both efx chips.
    
    Mike

Write it down ! My foot !

Sheesh, didn't you guys ever hear of MIDI ?
Dump it to tape... all of it.  Takes about two-point-two seconds.

;)

jc

    What's MIDI?  What's a rack? ;-)

Really wanna get fancy ?

Take your typical Apple MAC or 286 PC and plug in some MIDI
interfacing cards, and add some MIDI Librarian software,
and you can bring your patches on line and edit them.
Work in a drum machines MIDI data to change your
patches...  It goes on and on.

Absolutely amazing stuff.

jc (WHo wants a drum machine for his toy shelf)

    Hey Coop, did you get your TC2290 yet?  You're slipping doode, you
    haven't laid out some serious cash in a while! ;-)

<insert Bart Simpson voice>

No!

I haven't gotten any new toize lately, except a Roland DEP3 I've been 
playing with on my 4-track.

Next toy:
Drum machine !

jc

    
    Coop, mebbe you can trade in some of the extra punch bowls and toasters
    you'll be getting at the reception for new toize.
    
    ;^)

Thats the plan dude.

;)

CJ's got her T-Bird now and it's jc's turn for new toize.  ;)

Bahahahahahaha...

jc

    ART has a new Power Plant 410 preamp out and an X11 MIDI foot
    controller to join the rest of their line.
    
    Mike

Hi Mike !

>    ART has a new Power Plant 410 preamp out and an X11 MIDI foot
>    controller to join the rest of their line.
>    
Any more info on it ? Is it solid-state or tube ? MIDI-programmable ?
Has it an fx-loop ?

	thanks

		Richard

    Re: -1
    
    The preamp is solid state.  The rest I'm not sure about.
    
    Mike

    October 1990
    
    Dear SGE Owner,
    
    It's the time many of you have been waiting for. Due to the great
    success of the SGE MACH II and your continued interest in ART, we are
    pleased to announce the release of the SGE to SGE MACH II UPGRADE.
    
    All the features of the MACH II which include a maximum two seconds of
    delay, a two second sampler/delay, ACM speaker simulator algorithm, a
    MIDI Event Monitor program, and some super new presets can now be
    installed into your SGE.
    
    Best of all, you can do it yourself in as little as 20 minutes! 
    Really! There are six Integrated Circuits which need to be replaced. 
    All of these chips are in sockets for easy out and easy in. Of course,
    we will provide full documentation for the installation and use of your
    "new" SGE MACH II.
    
    The Upgrade Package is available direct from ART and costs $100.00. We
    will accept a check or money order made payable to ART.  This fee
    includes shipment of the Upgrade Package to you.  If you have any
    questions about the upgrade, please contact our Customer Service
    Department between the hours of 9:00 AM and 4:30 PM Eastern Time.
    
    Regards,
    
    Jim Stachowski
    Customer Relations
    
    Applied Research & Technology, Inc.
                                       

	Thanks for posting the letter, Greg. I'll probably send out my check
	tonight. Although interest seems to be waning for the SGE/SGE Mach II,
	I'll post my results when I receive the upgrade. I think it's got to
	be worth it for resale value alone. Current discount price of the
	Mach II seems to be around $560.

Larry

> Although interest seems to be waning for the SGE/SGE Mach II,
    
    I don't know what it is, seems to me that interest in multieffect
    units in general is waning.  Perhaps I'm wrong, maybe it's just me.
    
    Greg

    No, I think your right.  I thin kthe whole world is watching Buckley
    selling his amps and stuff off every three weeks to get some hot new
    toy, and their trying to keep up !    ;)
    
    I think people going for multiFX are going for less-tech.  DSP's and
    MIDIverb II's and so forth.  The initial excitement over 9 FX at once
    where thin PDQ IMHO.
    
    jc (Still a rack puke)

    Alright!  Sonic Integrity wins over # of Simultaneous Effects!
    
    Mike

    I'm still rolling too! ;-)  And I also can't afford to keep up, but I
    like that Marshall blowout rumor ;-)
    
    Mike

Article 3519 of rec.music.makers:
From: [email protected] (Dallas J. Hodgson)
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers
Subject: Re: SGE rebuttal
Date: 22 Feb 91 01:39:19 GMT

>Everyone I know that bought an SGE has sold them.   A lot of people complain
>about
>inconsistent volumes between patches, making it worthless for gigging.  Very
>limiting
>3 band EQ too.  ART tends to use synthesized stereo too, as opposed to true
>stereo.
>They split the mono signal and send one out of phase.  Sort of mickey mouse if
>you
>ask me.
>
>I wouldn't recommend it.

To keep your patches at even level, you need to program the Output and Drive
levels for each component appropriately. It's too bad there isn't some kind
of global "output volume" you could set for each path at the end of the
effects loop.

As for the stereo part, the SGE synthesizes all your standard stereo effects
from a mono signal. The analog portion of the SGE is full stereo, but it
gets mixed at the digital FX stage. If you're just using analog F/X like
compression etc, it's stereo in/out. I don't know of any effects units that
have SEPARATE digital F/X processors for both the left and right channels.

The Mach II's strength is that it's quite flexible and very, very
easy-to-program. This is worth its weight in gold against boxes with poor
user interfaces that discourage you from playing with it at all. I agree
that the 3-bad EQ is limited. I upgraded my SGE to a Mach II last month for
around 100 bucks (an EPROM and some DRAMS) - when was the last time Roland (or
anybody else) gave you an upgrade path??
-- 
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Dallas J. Hodgson               |     "These days, you have to be pretty   |
| Metaphor Computer Systems       |      technical before you can even       |
| Mountain View, Ca.              |      aspire to crudeness."               | 
| USENET : [email protected]       |            - William Gibson              |
+============================================================================+
| "The views I express are my own, and not necessarily those of my employer" |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

    >                        -< someone defends SGE >-
    
    Amazing.
    
>around 100 bucks (an EPROM and some DRAMS) - when was the last time Roland (or
>anybody else) gave you an upgrade path??
    
    ADA - $3
    DIGItech - $30
    
    Sheeesh.
    
    >To keep your patches at even level, you need to program the Output and Drive
    >levels for each component appropriately.
    
    Too bad this doesn't work either...
    
    jc 

    >> -< someone defends SGE >-
    >
    >Amazing.
    
    Not so amazing, I've rather consistantly defended it.  It's a great
    unit for what it does.
    
    >>To keep your patches at even level, you need to program the Output and Drive
    >>levels for each component appropriately.
    >
    >Too bad this doesn't work either...
    
    This *does* work!  I've done it (at the recommendation of the guy I
    called up at ART complaining about it).  It takes a bit of
    experimentation to get the levels even though since there's no level
    gauge or anything.  Definately a lot less convenient then a per patch
    master volume.
    
    Greg

Hi folks !

I'm wondering that nobody mentioned the SGX 2000, which is supposed to be a
follow on of the SGE (not necessarily a replacement). Does it improve the
situation on the SGE limitations ???

	Richard

P.S.: Only 4 more days 'til Musikmesse....

    	I have a SGE and I will admit that it's not the greatest piece of
    equipment out there.  I have never really used it in a live situation
    but I am happy with it in a recording situation.  I have been able to
    get a even output for various presets by adjusting them.  My biggest
    complaints are that I can't really get the type of distortion that I am
    looking for and that the maximum delay is only 500ms.  I don't really
    know if I should sink $100 dollars into the upgrade if the SGE is going
    to go the way of the dinosaur.  Could someone give a detailed review of
    the upgrade and explain how the sampler is used?  What do you need to
    store a sample with this unit?  
    
    Byron

    re:141
    
    The SGE MACH II upgrade was 6 chips that installed in a couple minutes,
    then resetting takes a few seconds.  What you get is: three speaker
    curves, 2 second delay, and a sampler in addition to what you already
    had - not to mention the capability to set up 12 fx at once.  After
    using the upgrade a couple days I would rate the features as follows:
    the 2 second delay is great - has some real creative potential with
    minimal user sophistication, speaker curves are a nice touch - finally
    the SGE sounds like a gutsy guitar amp, and the sampler - some
    interesting ideas requiring a lot of planning and technology.
    
    The 2 second delay is of course available with the Stereo Delay,
    allowing different delay times right and left.  Even in mono mode this
    effect was very striking since you can use "call and response"
    techniques very effectively.  The additional 1.5 seconds over the old
    SGE is very dramatic, and well worthwhile.
    
    There are three speaker curves: Edge, Warm and Bass.  These can make
    the SGE distortion much more tolerable.  I'm sure I'll use this on
    most guitar presets, since they add a lot character that was missing
    on the old machine.
    
     The sampler works directly with your guitar, and depending upon being
    triggered manually, automatically, or by midi it will record whatever
    is at the input at that time.  The start time can be adjusted. 
    Automatic mode seems to be the best adapted to performance, although
    you will need a midi footpedal also because of the limitation on the
    trigger.  For instance if you move to a patch set up for automatic
    sample, whatever you play is recorded right away.  Then you press the
    trigger to play, or optionally and to me ideally the footswitch - but
    this only governs play or hold, not a reset for the next sample.  That
    would be accomplished (my guess here, which I can test) by using a midi
    footpedal to move to a preset ready to accept your sample.  Well,
    anyway there are some nifty features, like using the sampler with the
    pitch transposer, etc.. It is good to see that the sampler can be used
    for over 1.6 seconds WITH 11 effects on a factory preset.
    
    In short, I'm happy with the upgrade in spite of the cumbersome
    sampler.  Let me know if you have questions.
    
    -Bill
    

    Does anyone have a SGE Mach-II?? I just got a used one and it has no
    manual. Does someone have a manual that I can copy?? I can come to you
    or you can do it and send it my way.
    
    Thanks,
    Jim
    

I think I still have the manual for the original SGE (not the Mh II).
I bet they are quite similar....

I have the SGE MACHII and I am pretty sure I still have the manual
somewhere.  I live in Western MA so I'm not so sure you'd want to 
drive all the way out here.  Maybe I could FAX it to ya.  Send me 
some mail (WFOOFF::SPORBERT) and I'll see what I can do.

                                              - The Edman

    Saw an ad for the new SG T2.... some of the changes from the Mach II
    off the top of my head are an on board tuner, the mix can now be 
    programed, 7 band EQ (?), new distortions, some other stuff I can't
    think of right now. I guess it's a mini version of their new pre-amp.
    
    Has anyone seen this yet? Any comments?
    
    Ted