Conference napalm::guitar

    
   >  Only when he played keyboards and it was impossible for him
   >  not to play the solo would I be "allowed" to do so 


         Whoops!  that's "...impossible for him to play the solo..."


      Guy

I used to run into this all of the time. I now only play in a Duo (guitar -
me & Keyboards) that's loaded with MIDI gear. I tend to dominate the song 
choices since I tend to do 95% of the sequencing. However the keyboard
player & I have very similar tastes, so in the last 5 years, this hasn't
been much of a problem. I do often go out & Jam with other people, but I
try to limit my serious efforts to the Duo.

What do you do??? That I don't know. I've always run into this at one time
or another & I all I could do was quit & look for something else. I've never
been in a group of more than 3 people that didn't have this problem.

If you are rich & ready to spend at least $1000.00, you could get into
MIDI & sequencing (Look into the ENSONIQ, ROLAND, ALESIS and YAMAHA products
& be sure to add entry NOVA::COMMUSIC to your NOTES directory). The biggest
advantage is that you can reduce your reliance on other people (a duo or
trio is able to sound very thick these days). The biggest disadvantages are
that you now need to tottally structure yourself & are no longer allowed
to deviate from your defined song structure, and you lose the abilities of
the other 'missing' members.

Rest assured that you will also spend at least a year before you start getting
in any way intuative with your MIDI gear (besides what ever you buy will be
obsoleted so quickly that it'll almost make you dizzy).

Send me some Email if you want to pursue this further.

								Jens

    
    I think eveyone has run into a character like this at one time or
    another.  My usual response is to talk to the rest of the band and find
    out if they are as bothered by the egomaniac as I am.  If yes,  sit
    down with the egomaniac and read the riot act.  If (s)he changes,
    great.  If not, hit the eject button.
    
    If the rest of the band would rather ignore the situation at least I know
    where I stand and can decide if it's worth leaving the band or not.
    
    Kevin
    
    

	I can sympathize with this topic all too well. A few bands ago
	I was "in the shadow" of another guitar/keyboard player.  He had
	his hot chops, so did I, but being the new kid and having little
	stage experience (this guy had been in gigging bands for years), I
	opted to take second fiddle, so to speak.  As time went on, I 
	played more and more leads, he did more work on keys, but was always 
	there to correct me when I goofed, must be nice to be perfect.  But
	eventually I was impeached from the band so they could bring in 2
	other members which had been "their" frinds for a long time, but
	their excuse for my dismissal was the fact that I played "too 
	heavy" .... guilty as charged your honor !

	But the worm DOES turn sometimes.  After 2 years I find myself back
	in a band with this joker, BUT the only slot left to be filled when 
	the band was coming together was that of bass, NOT guitar or keys !
	He agreed to this arrangement.  After 2 practices he's already back
	to his old tricks of :

		* YOU guitar players are TOO LOUD !
		* Let me show you how to get a KILLER tone !
		* I can't hear my vocals !
		* NO, NO, NO ... let me show you how that lead goes !
		* I wanna play guitar on something !
		* These songs are too "heavy".
		* If we don't change the format, I'm gonna quit !
		* Where's my beer ?
		* What's my name ? (after many beers ...)

	My first reaction is to $ set mode = Barney_Fife <return>, and "Nip
	It, Nip It, Nip It In The Bud" .... can him now !  But if he could 
	get his attitude straight, he could be a great bass player.  More 
	than likely he'll quit before he gets fired, but it'll be close.
	Shame it has to get to that point, isn't it ?


				Scary (The Terminator !)

    
    I find that there are two types of bands.
    
    1.  Leader(s) plus sidemen.  This usually works great, there are
    no egos involved since the roles are well defined (i.e. I run the
    band so you do what I say).  Uppity sidemen just get replaced. 
    Money talks, bulls**t walks.
    
    2.  "Democratic" bands.  These always break up over more or less the
    same reasons....people get sick of each other, or they get sick of the
    music, or they steal each others' wives  8^)  8^)  8^) The ego thing
    has happened in *every* band of this type I've ever been in.  Sometimes
    I *think* the guy doesn't realize how overbearing he is.  I figure every
    democratic band requires compromises. You just set the threshold for
    yourself and when you have to compromise past that point, it's time for
    some changes... 

    On a side issue:  When you're playing in a rock band, and someone
    says "the guitars are too loud" they are usually right.  Heck,
    *everything* is too loud.  Having backlines of large amplifiers
    does not lead to an easily controllable stage sound.  Trust me,
    I have played a fair amount of acoustic music and it's a real joy
    to hear everything clearly.

    
    re: all
    
    I guess I wouldn't put up with this kind of crap now, but at the time I
    was unsure of my own worth as a musician.  Strangely enough, about six
    months ago I looked this guy up and we were able to talk as friends and
    (from my impression) as equals.  I had at one point vowed never to have
    anything to do with him again.  We talked about starting a band, but
    nothing ever came of it and I believe that is for the better - I don't
    believe he has really changed at all - we just weren't in any
    situations that would put the issue to the test.
    
    re: .6 (AQUA::ROST)
    
    I could handle the "leader(s) plus sidemen" scenerio, but there was no
    talk of such things, only implied (I say "only implied" but the effects 
    were quite real).  
    
    Does the "democratic" band so often fail?  I guess I have a dream that
    some time I'll find the "right people" and they'll all be easy going
    enough to hang together.  I guess musicians are inherently
    tempermental.  :-)
    
    
    Guy
    
    P.S.  On tempermental musicians:  My cousin is a wonderful drummer -
    his style is exactly that of John Bonham, and to my ear is just as good
    as John was - the catch is he's always smokin' them evil weeds.  My
    brother is a terrible drummer (can't carry a beat, but great technique)
    and we get along great. :-)
    
    

    
    re: .7
    
    No, democratic bands don't *always* fail...I'm sure there is an
    exception, but look at the Beatles, for instance.  They stuck together
    for about ten years total, then blew up.  Nothing lasts forever,
    the frustration is when you rehearse for a year, gig four times
    and break up.  
    
    I once read an article by ED Denson where he claimed that a band needed
    to last three years; anything less they were wasting their time as they
    couldn't accomplish anything in less time, and anything more than three
    years is gravy. Jimi Hendrix is a case in point, from his first album
    to his death was a little over three years, likewise Janis Joplin and
    Jim Morrison.  All have become legends despite short careers. 
    
    The longest-lived bands I have worked in were leader/sideman type
    outfits (one five years, off and on, the other three years and
    counting) while the longest running democratic band I was in was
    two years (one year rehearsing, one year gigging).
    

               
    	Well, I've often said that the reason I play bass is because
    _only then_ can we have a band! Otherwise, it's just a cacophony
    of guitars - certainly nobody else is going to "step down" to a
    "backing" position; *everyone* wants to play lead and be in the
    limelight or whatever.
    
    	I've played with egos before too - and it was *true* ego, cause
    the chops simply werent there for this guy. It was like everyone
    *knew* that was the case, yet the songs we did were "his" originals,
    so, whatta ya gonna do? We did get a "rythm" player eventually,
    who in no time showed that he could at least play a melodic lead
    in key, but that didnt change things as far as Mr Ego was concerned.
    
    	The bickering became so bad at times that at least half our
    practice time was spent arguing over the damn eq and board level
    settings for each player. You can guess who "had" to be the loudest
    - thank God for compression... This guy would actually threaten
    to quit the band if his levels werent up above _everything elses_
    in the mix. I cant recall how many times I had to go back and turn
    *everything* back down after all the levels somehow ended up topped
    out - after going thru this ridiculous process. Fortunately, I'm
    not in that band anymore, and, from what I've heard, he got his
    ego somewhat deflated by - get this - having to play bass after
    I left. I love it!!!
    
    	Now, I have the board upstairs and out of the studio area -
    the levels get set, then we play.
    
    	Joe Jas

    Okay, I think the first thing we all need to admit is that we *ALL*
    have egos.  Anyone who craves getting up on stage in front of a
    lot of people has an ego.
    
    Define ego !  Some people are so overbearing that they are hard
    to work with... Like they never shut up, or turn to a reasonable
    volume...whatever.
    
    I've been playing in a band on and off with my best friend for about 
    2.5 years.  We play well together and I'll share with you why (or why
    I think we do):
    
    We both have egos, and we both know we have ego's.  Neither of us
    are idoitic enough to think that we can carry the weight of a 4/5
    piece band alone.  We both know each others limitations; our weaknesses
    and strengths.  We arrange our material accordingly.  I mean we
    have our b**ches just like everyone else.  We talk it out;
    
    "Hey !  That was *MY* lead, Ice-H**e !!"
    
    "Oh sorry"
    
    "Yeah well, do it again and you'll have 6 tuning pegs up your 
     nose, and a floyd rose hernia-truss !!"
    
    Then you steal his lead when he's not lookin' see ?  (Or unplug
    his guit on stage during his fave solo !!)  :^)
    
    Try to not get uptight about it unless it happens constantly. I will
    admit that it's handy to be friends with your band members too, but the
    trick here I guess, is to have the common sense to not be impossible to
    work with. 

    Just my $.02

    jc (Who gets all the women anyway, so who cares !)

    ;^)

    I COULDN'T HAVE PUT IT BETTER!
    
    Seriously, I agree with ya jc. Right up until:
    
    � jc (I get all the women anyway, so who cares!)
    
    Talk about EGO. (or is it Bullsh*t)
    
    Bonzo

    Sorry, I forgot the ;^)

    
    re: a-few-back (jc)
    
    That's generally my philosophy now, and would have been then had this
    person been willing to admit he had any weaknesses, and also had I been
    more willing to admit strengths.  We had the worst of both worlds.
    
    Guy
    

    Speaking of bass players a few replies back, notice how ego is usually
    not a problem.  Heck, most bass players can't even spell it :-)
    
    /rick

    this note is bringing memories back of why i hated being in bar
    bands!
    
    when i first started out playing, i always went around with the
    "everyone else must know more than me", sometimes you can learn
    lots of stuff from fatheads, i guess it depends on your committment.
    Now, when i encounter someone who is a Fathead, i inflate my ego
    (not that its not there already) to their level. sometimes ya just
    gotta be a jerk. Most of the bands i've played in, i let other people
    run everything, you become quite in demand if you play bass!
    
    I do lots of recording, and its a real strain for me to listen to
    other peoples ideas with my stuff -- but i'm learning that other
    people's ideas are as good or better than mine! especially on my
    songs.
    
    jay

    RE: .14 ----- Right Rick!  How do you spell it anyway ...... 
    
    Usually when, it comes time to introduce the band members, what you
    hear is ".....and now I'd like to introduce the "musicians" in the band,
    and, uhh -  oh yes - of course we have a "bass player" too!" :-)
    
    All in great fun!  No room for egos - but you gotta have a thick skin
    at times.  
    
    D. (just a bass player!)

    re: .13
    
    I didn't say he'd *admit* he had any weaknesses !!!  I just have
    to tell him he stinks once in a while to keep him on his toes...
    
    Agagagagagagagagagagaaaa...

    8^}

    This is a really interesting discussion!  I've been pretty lucky so far
    and have never ended up in a band with anyone with that kind of
    attitude.  Of course, this is little surprise, given that I'm not a
    great player and haven't been in a lot of bands (matter of fact, none
    of my bands so far have ever played in public, just wait about three
    weeks though!).  
    
    I've always formed bands with people who were my friends beforehand and
    have never had problems (aside from being relocated for work and having
    to quit).  Of course, I tend to avoid making friends with people that
    have big egos/attitude problems...
    
    re: .6  "there are bands with leaders...and there are democratic bands"
    
    I perceive a difference between a leader and someone who just has a big
    ego and causes problems.  A leader does just that, manages and directs
    the band, whereas a big ego just goes selfishly on and on about
    himself.  The big ego is almost always very critical of others, whereas
    the leader may offer constructive advice.
    
    I've been in both kinds of bands and I found that they both worked well
    as long as people in them were considerate of the others and had a
    little flexability.  My first band had a leader, and we all agreed on
    that.  He was great!  He orchastrated our parts and helped us get it
    together when we had trouble.  He always offered us constructive and
    helpful advice and never tore us down, even though there were two of us
    in the band that were (honestly) very poor musicians.  We ended up
    playing some really good sounding original rock songs.
    
    I'm currently in a democratic band.  We've only been together a few
    weeks (this incarnation), but we're all getting along great, and the
    music is coming together well.
    
    Greg

    Re: Bass players - The Bass player in the band I'm working for now
    is a better guitarist than I may ever be - we'll see. He doesn't
    have his ego protruding out there like John Holmes, but I have noticed
    a few things lately:
    
      1. We do a decent version of "Gimme Some Lovin" - where he does
         a 5 to 8 minute solo (Yes, it kicks ass - he's good). WE HAVE
          NEVER LEFT THAT SONG OUT OF THE SET. 
    
         However, my favorite song - "People Get Ready" (with Jeff Beck)
         is left out quite often. I DO mean to speak to him about this,
         in a calm, professional manner very shortly.
    
    You'll notice that I said I was *working* for this band. That is
    exactly what I meant: I get paid the same $$ per week if we play
    one - or 10 gigs. 
    
    Although he (and the female singer) "own" the business, and are
    the dictators - they go about it in a way that doesn't rub me the
    wrong way.
    
    HOW you say something is sometimes more important than WHAT you
    say. I wish I had more time and space - this is a great subject.
    
    -BAP

    
    Re: .19
    
    If the bassist is the bandleader and you're on "salary" then I guess
    it's not too surprising that *his* solo spot doesn't get axed.
    

    I've sure had *MY* fill of it as well.
    Little story:
    
    Back in NY, there were a number of us musician types that had a list
    of 100-200 musicians to call on in-case someone couldn't make a
    gig. Well one day I get this call for a country/rock-a-billy gig
    where the guy wants me to fill-in on bass for the weekend. I wasn't
    working that weekend so I take the gig. Sight unseen and unrehersed
    I take it. I get to the bar, meet the other guys in the band and
    already the lead singer is "telling" me exactly what "he" wants
    of me. No problem I think, he's just nervous. OK, we start and complete
    the first 4 songs. I'm having a great time cause the guitarist and
    I were in this great groove and it sounded (to me) great! NOW STARTS
    THE PROBLEM... the lead singer/2nd guitarist tells me that I'm playing
    a very busy bass and wants me to play root (I have a problem
    with this, BUT like the sideman that I am, I agree). Well I'm playing
    the typical country 1/4 just like the record that I've heard 1,000
    times already and the dude tells me that I'm jazzing it up! OK...
    now I'm pissed!!!!!   |^(  I wan't upset that he didn't like my
    style, I was upset because he shouted over the microphone (in the
    middle of the song) to play it simple so that everyone in the bar
    could hear! The man just ain't got no class! Know what I mean?
    Anyway to make a long story longer... I played every 2 or 3rd or
    4th note in order to simplify my bass playing just for him. Obviously
    his EGO was just too much for anyone to take including me, so AFTER
    I collected my money, I called all the members together (including
    "Mr. Personality") and properly (with alot of class) told him that
    his EGO and my bass playing just didn't match. I told him to find
    another bass player for tomorrows gig cause I _refuse_ to play with
    an egotistical dictator! This occured OUTSIDE the bar. I wanted to make
    sure that the WHOLE band knew what I thought of him. He got all
    bent out of shape and tried to tell me that he didn't mean to hurt
    my feelings. Tough buddy!
    Funny thing is that he called me again 3 months later for the band's
    final gig. I told him over the phone that I would play bass the
    way *I* want (which BTW would be like any other bassist would play)
    <set/mode=no_ego> and he would not complain about me over the
    PA system like he had done. He agreed, I played that gig and I had
    a good time with it. Never saw him, or heard from again after that.
    
    EGO Problems? Don't put up with it! Kick him in the butt and bring
    him back to the real world. If that doesn't help... open the door
    for him and say "have a nice day".
                   
    Life's too short to put up with someone elses child.
    
    
    Fred-who-doesn't-put-up-with-____-anymore.  
    

	An intriguing topic.   I agree, everyone at one time or another
    was probably in a situation where one person, for one reason or
    another, assumed, or was allowed to assume control.
    
    	I guess the trick their is not allowing (if possible) the situation
    to occur.  

        I'm 32, been playing since I was 8, and been in bands since I was 14.
    When I tell you that I'm one guy (of many) that have been from here to
    hell, and back five times, in bands, I aint kidding. 
        	

        When I think back and trace the emergence of a controler the reason
    wasn't always ego.  Sometimes it was due to investment into the
    equipment, available rehersal sapce, availabel transportation, and or
    contacts into the circuits a band is working towards.  I can offer
    that I've never emerged as a controler, but I've always been able
    to offer my influence most of the time.  But I've found that if
    one person is running the show, unless the rest of the band is a
    herd of sheep, there's gonna be problems
    
    
        
<<        Does the "democratic" band so often fail?  I guess I have a dream that
<<    some time I'll find the "right people" and they'll all be easy going
<<    enough to hang together.  I guess musicians are inherently
<<    tempermental.  :-)

	All I can say is I've been in a band that is quite democratic
    in philosophy.  We've been going strong for 6+ years.  The only
    problem is getting things done.  Sometimes direction gets foggy
    and everyone has to assume the responsibilty for sucess.  One guy
    can't do it alone,,,  that's the only snag we've run into.,...

    
    Thanks, everyone, for making this note more interesting that I had
    ever predicted.  My best ideas are the spur of the moment ones - if
    I'd thought about this for a second I wouldn't have done it. :-)
    
    Guy

    	re:23..
    
    	    dis is da beauty of Notes....
    
    	
    
    

    
    
    Found while cruising old notes...
    
    The band I'm in has been together for (5?) years now, and I
    can't remember the last time we had an argument.  We're not
    exactly a well-oiled machine when it comes to our practice schedule,
    but there is real respect and friendship amoung the band members. No 
    ego problems at all, ever.  We all bring something different to the
    party, and it's appreciated.
    
    Wow, I have to get my hanky out....8-)
    
    Kevin
    
     

    
    Kevin-
    
    Seriously, that is something to be quite proud of...  I've been in
    numerous bands over the years, some of which really had great potential,
    but the vast majority of them eventually blew apart due to negative
    dynamics between two or more of the members.  It always amazes me when
    I consider bands that have been together successfully over decades,
    in contrast to other great bands that crash & burn from the pressure
    and stress.  And then there are always the odd cases where on-stage
    fist fights between members have actually broken out prior to a band's
    demise.
    
    Congratulations on your professionalism and keep on rockin'!
    
    /Steve
    

    You are obviously all in heavy denial...
    
    
    :-)

    -1 I concur!

    
      Interestingly enough I have a had a decent run with my last band.
    We played steady and didn't have too many internal problems, and
    anything "off" was easily resolved, With only a few changes in
    personnel (keys/other guitar) we managed a good four year stretch.
    Then we picked up a female singer that plays rhythm guitar and sax. 
    The quality of the band, and marketablilty) immediately improves. 
      The only problem, is the drummer can't keep his "stick" in his pants,
    then he pretty much just discusses things regarding the band with just
    the new singer (in some of the discreetest places), and on top of that
    he turns into the moodiest s-o-b I've ever played with (well, he was
    always moody - didn't think it could get any worse - I was wrong).
    On top of THAT , he is somewhat related to me (both of our wives are
    sisters), and his wife starts interrogating me about what time I got
    home from gigs, what's going on between *** & ***. Way too much crap to
    deal with, so I resigned. I have gigs to play up until March 1st, but
    I'm definitely outta there ! BTW - The bass player quit as well for
    pretty much the same reason. 
      I get a break...

    So this drummer is your' brother-in-law?  Oy-vay!
    
    Mark 

    
    ...add a singer to the band and the band falls apart for 
    the usual reasons.  Now, where have I seen *that* before.....
    
    Bummer.
    
    Kevin
    

    re: singers and ego
    
    Reminds me of a new singer who joined a band I was working in
    and a couple of weeks later informed us all that she was
    carrying the band.
    
    Paul

    
      RE: (the last few) 
    
    
      ..think I touched a nerve.
    
      The fun part was the pleading. (ie: "You're stupid to leave the band,
    we're doing so good", "What can we do to make it better"). It's not my
    problem anymore. Especially when it starts affecting my family
    conversation (my wife, her other sister, ...) If something goes on from
    here on, I don't want to be a part of it.

ya know, I've got NOTHING against female singers/band members,
I'm working with two right now in the band I'm in and they
are just great to work with, I luv these two ladies, they're
jsut fantastic both with attitide and ability.

But, this experience is CLEARLY the first where the chemistry
between all the musicians, male and female, has sort of worked.

I'm not trying to start any holy wars here but,,,

For what female members usually add, I hate to say, they're
typically not worth it..  yea,  yer a little more marketable, 
and yea you can attract somewhat of a crowd if she's good at 
putting on 'the moves', but what it does to the musicians 
chemistry is usually a much bigger negative than what has been 
added in the plus... **Especially a band that was established
and doing fine with out her..**

But, again, I don't see this as her fault, and in all fairness
it doesn't sound as though she's created the problem, although
it would seem that she is sort of contributing to it..

Your brother-in-law is thinking with the wrong head at this point!

    It sure sounds like she's at least part of the problem, and not in a
    musical sense.  If she were interested in preserving the health and
    well being of the band, she would have cut the drummer off at the knees
    from the get-go.  This would have defined their relationship as
    professional and the band would have moved to a higher level.
    
    Bringing a new performer into an established environment is disruptive
    no matter what the gender.  It's just a little more complicated when
    going "co-ed".  But whether the new player is he or she, the new player
    and the band both have to be mature and flexible enough to adjust to
    the new chemistry.  Not always easy.
    
    My band has been together for over a year now and we played something
    like 40 gigs last year.  We have occasional pissing contests and we're
    not always pulling together, but when that happens we try to see it for
    what it is, talk it through like grown-ups, and move on.  So far with
    great success.  Most of our competition have female leads and we
    briefly considered finding someone like that for our band.  And
    if the right person came along, we might still bring her on board, but
    the band would not become "Jane Doe and the Rodeo Clowns".  She would 
    be just another member with no special status.  Easier said than done?
    Maybe.  But that would be the expectation and would be established 
    right at the outset.

Biggest problem I have is getting everyone to show up
to rehersal on time, and it's usually just one guy,
he's hard to get moving, but he's such a great guy
to work with, and has become a good friend, it's hard
to bust his chops about showing up a half hour late,,
but it does kill what we can get accomplished in a night.

There's 8 people in this band, you'd think that it'd
be hell to get everyone there, but just one guy,.,

go figure...

    There's one in every crowd, no?
    
    I've got a similar situation.  One guy who's really quite nice, but
    has severl annoying habits.  Nothing you can point to and say "this
    has to change or else", but taken togther, they make him tough to
    work with.  The problem is that he's a co-founder of the band and
    his bad habits aren't so bad that we'd have to vote him out.  It just
    makes things difficult sometimes.
    
    But hey, a band is an n-way marriage and you gotta bend or you might as
    well not even join up in the first place.  As long as the person in
    question isn't jeopardizing the quality of the band's music or
    appearance (image, if you will), you try to put up with the small
    stuff.
    
    	R

    Disruption - yep - been there done that - I know that in our current 
    (5+ year) gig with The Shakerz - if a female was added - we'd all
    scatter like startled insects!  RAID!!!!!!!!!

    <Nothing you can point to and say "this has to change or else".

Sure, same deal, and this is the only issue, just tuff to get
him there.. part of the frustration is that we've arranged
rehersal to be on his day off (he works retail and Monday
he's off)  we figured our problems were over ya know, but
alomst a year latter, and we just can't seem to get
started much before 7:45, 7:50..  

Normally this wouldn't be a big deal but we've got three
vocalists and each one has about an hour set, (I'm actually
working in a show band so, it's a lot different structure wise
than other bands I've worked in..)  

The plan has been to start at 7:00 and give each vocalist
one hour...  When he shows up 30/35 minutes late, it
kills the whole agenda...  a little frustrating..

But there's 8 people in this outfit, and it's amazing enough
to get everyone there on the same night, never mind at the 
same time.  and yea you're right, give and take, bend or break.
I've got way too many things in my life that induce strees,
I refuse to let music be one of them..  I just try and roll
with it!

anyway, we had a big talk about it this week, everyone started 
to question why we were'nt starting at 7:00 and Dave just
said, "My Fault, been my fault, I'll fix it."

well see...

/pelkster